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Main
Date: 14 May 2007 09:48:00
From: Zen Cohen
Subject: New carbon or older titanium?
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Looking at some newer full-carbon bikes (eg, new Fuji Team Pro for $1400,
used 2005 Trek 5.2 Madone for $1300). Found a 1998 Litespeed Natchez
titanium in good shape for $800. Are the older ti frames comparable to newer
ones, or have there been a lot of advances in ti frames the last few yrs? In
general, how does an older ti frame compare to new carbons? Thanks.
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Date: 17 May 2007 05:27:29
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: New carbon or older titanium?
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On May 16, 6:45 am, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr > wrote:
> Dans le message denews:1179318707.263983.54020@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.c=
om,
> Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com> a r=E9fl=E9chi, et puis a d=
=E9clar=E9 :
>
>
>
> > On May 15, 11:40 am, Alex <a...@columbia.edu> wrote:
> >> On May 14, 12:48 pm, "Zen Cohen" <atu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Looking at some newer full-carbon bikes (eg, new Fuji Team Pro for
> >>> $1400, used 2005 Trek 5.2 Madone for $1300). Found a 1998 Litespeed
> >>> Natchez titanium in good shape for $800. Are the older ti frames
> >>> comparable to newer ones, or have there been a lot of advances in
> >>> ti frames the last few yrs? In general, how does an older ti frame
> >>> compare to new carbons? Thanks.
>
> >> Since you are looking at full bikes, not just frames, the components
> >> make a big
> >> difference in the price. I would go with the bike with the best set
> >> of components.
> >> Most riders will get tired of riding the same bike, even though there
> >> is nothing wrong
> >> with it, long before the bike breaks.
> >> --------------------
> >> Alex
>
> > 'Most'? I think this is backwards. Components are consumables, the
> > frame is the heart of the bike. Like I have said before, i would
> > rather ride my Merckx with Sora than the latest whizbangery with
> > Record. BUT fit is the key, not which derailleur it has.
>
> So your (recently acquired) Merckx is your latest "last bike" ?
?? Ride my MXLeader almost everyday..when it's dry. Ride my Moots when
it's wet. As I get older and approach .6 of a century, my desired
'window' of what kind of frame I want to ride into the sunset gets
smaller, not larger. I think I am on my last frame now.
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Date: 16 May 2007 05:31:47
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: New carbon or older titanium?
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On May 15, 11:40 am, Alex <a...@columbia.edu > wrote:
> On May 14, 12:48 pm, "Zen Cohen" <atu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Looking at some newer full-carbon bikes (eg, new Fuji Team Pro for $1400,
> > used 2005 Trek 5.2 Madone for $1300). Found a 1998 Litespeed Natchez
> > titanium in good shape for $800. Are the older ti frames comparable to newer
> > ones, or have there been a lot of advances in ti frames the last few yrs? In
> > general, how does an older ti frame compare to new carbons? Thanks.
>
> Since you are looking at full bikes, not just frames, the components
> make a big
> difference in the price. I would go with the bike with the best set
> of components.
> Most riders will get tired of riding the same bike, even though there
> is nothing wrong
> with it, long before the bike breaks.
> --------------------
> Alex
'Most'? I think this is backwards. Components are consumables, the
frame is the heart of the bike. Like I have said before, i would
rather ride my Merckx with Sora than the latest whizbangery with
Record. BUT fit is the key, not which derailleur it has.
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Date: 16 May 2007 14:45:01
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: New carbon or older titanium?
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Dans le message de
news:1179318707.263983.54020@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com,
Qui si parla Campagnolo <peter@vecchios.com > a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> On May 15, 11:40 am, Alex <a...@columbia.edu> wrote:
>> On May 14, 12:48 pm, "Zen Cohen" <atu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Looking at some newer full-carbon bikes (eg, new Fuji Team Pro for
>>> $1400, used 2005 Trek 5.2 Madone for $1300). Found a 1998 Litespeed
>>> Natchez titanium in good shape for $800. Are the older ti frames
>>> comparable to newer ones, or have there been a lot of advances in
>>> ti frames the last few yrs? In general, how does an older ti frame
>>> compare to new carbons? Thanks.
>>
>> Since you are looking at full bikes, not just frames, the components
>> make a big
>> difference in the price. I would go with the bike with the best set
>> of components.
>> Most riders will get tired of riding the same bike, even though there
>> is nothing wrong
>> with it, long before the bike breaks.
>> --------------------
>> Alex
>
> 'Most'? I think this is backwards. Components are consumables, the
> frame is the heart of the bike. Like I have said before, i would
> rather ride my Merckx with Sora than the latest whizbangery with
> Record. BUT fit is the key, not which derailleur it has.
So your (recently acquired) Merckx is your latest "last bike" ?
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Date: 15 May 2007 10:40:31
From: Alex
Subject: Re: New carbon or older titanium?
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On May 14, 12:48 pm, "Zen Cohen" <atu...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Looking at some newer full-carbon bikes (eg, new Fuji Team Pro for $1400,
> used 2005 Trek 5.2 Madone for $1300). Found a 1998 Litespeed Natchez
> titanium in good shape for $800. Are the older ti frames comparable to newer
> ones, or have there been a lot of advances in ti frames the last few yrs? In
> general, how does an older ti frame compare to new carbons? Thanks.
Since you are looking at full bikes, not just frames, the components
make a big
difference in the price. I would go with the bike with the best set
of components.
Most riders will get tired of riding the same bike, even though there
is nothing wrong
with it, long before the bike breaks.
--------------------
Alex
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Date: 15 May 2007 05:14:28
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: New carbon or older titanium?
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On May 14, 10:48 am, "Zen Cohen" <atu...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Looking at some newer full-carbon bikes (eg, new Fuji Team Pro for $1400,
> used 2005 Trek 5.2 Madone for $1300). Found a 1998 Litespeed Natchez
> titanium in good shape for $800. Are the older ti frames comparable to newer
> ones, or have there been a lot of advances in ti frames the last few yrs? In
> general, how does an older ti frame compare to new carbons? Thanks.
Not possible to compare anything but sizing. BUT titanium will
generally last forever if welded well and Litespeed has been doing
this for a while.
Basic ti tubes have gotten shaped and such but an oversized tube ti
frame is a great frameset. Carbon, for all it's whizbangery, will
probably not have the lifespan of titanium. Can you ride each? Do they
all fit you?
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Date: 14 May 2007 13:02:39
From:
Subject: Re: New carbon or older titanium?
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On May 14, 11:41 am, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On May 14, 9:48 am, "Zen Cohen" <atu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
I was going to call bull, but then I saw I had read
> Forks are lighter today too,
as
Folks are lighter today too.
Think I'll let that thread sleep...
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Date: 14 May 2007 10:41:23
From: bfd
Subject: Re: New carbon or older titanium?
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On May 14, 9:48 am, "Zen Cohen" <atu...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Looking at some newer full-carbon bikes (eg, new Fuji Team Pro for $1400,
> used 2005 Trek 5.2 Madone for $1300). Found a 1998 Litespeed Natchez
> titanium in good shape for $800. Are the older ti frames comparable to newer
> ones, or have there been a lot of advances in ti frames the last few yrs? In
> general, how does an older ti frame compare to new carbons? Thanks.
I think older ti frames are a great deal and can be found a very
reasonable price. I've seen late 90s Merlin Extralights, Litespeed
Vortex and Serotta Legends sell as *complete* bikes, with 90s DA 9 or
Record 9 groups, in the $1200-1500 range.
How does it compare to today's carbons? Figure an older Extralight or
Vortex frame weighed in around 2.5 to 2.8 pounds. Today's new fancy
carbon frames, especially those coming out of Taiwan, weigh about 2.2
to 2.4 pounds.
Forks are lighter today too, weighing in around 300g versus the older
350-400g for carbon steerer tube forks. The major difference is that
today's frames all come with 1 and 1/8" fork; while the older 90s/
early 2000 ti frames probably used 1" forks. Nevertheless, 1" forks
are still available from all the major mfrs like Reynolds, True Temper
(Alpha Q) and Easton.
IF you find a good deal and like ti, then get it and RIDE!!!!
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Date: 14 May 2007 22:09:42
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: New carbon or older titanium?
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> I think older ti frames are a great deal and can be found a very
> reasonable price. I've seen late 90s Merlin Extralights, Litespeed
> Vortex and Serotta Legends sell as *complete* bikes, with 90s DA 9 or
> Record 9 groups, in the $1200-1500 range.
Unless warranty policies have changed, an older Merlin Extralight (or other
similar "ultralight" Ti bikes) might not be the best bet. Those come from a
time when the Ti manufacturers thought it a good idea to try and compete
with carbon frames on the basis of weight, and that just wasn't a good idea.
You can build a very solid carbon frame at 2.5 lbs, but the floor for a
solid Ti frame, at the time, was closer to 3lbs or so. The "ultralights"
tended to prove the point that there is a bottom floor for weight which is
tough to go below without having problems (typically downtubes that would
develop tears at the cable stop fittings). There should be few issues with
slightly-heavier Ti frames.
Do keep in mind that any used bike should be considered as-is, with no
manufacturer support behind it in the event something fails, even if
obviously defective. That applies to frames made of carbon, steel or ti.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"bfd" <bfd853@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1179164483.695570.20870@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On May 14, 9:48 am, "Zen Cohen" <atu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Looking at some newer full-carbon bikes (eg, new Fuji Team Pro for $1400,
>> used 2005 Trek 5.2 Madone for $1300). Found a 1998 Litespeed Natchez
>> titanium in good shape for $800. Are the older ti frames comparable to
>> newer
>> ones, or have there been a lot of advances in ti frames the last few yrs?
>> In
>> general, how does an older ti frame compare to new carbons? Thanks.
>
> I think older ti frames are a great deal and can be found a very
> reasonable price. I've seen late 90s Merlin Extralights, Litespeed
> Vortex and Serotta Legends sell as *complete* bikes, with 90s DA 9 or
> Record 9 groups, in the $1200-1500 range.
>
> How does it compare to today's carbons? Figure an older Extralight or
> Vortex frame weighed in around 2.5 to 2.8 pounds. Today's new fancy
> carbon frames, especially those coming out of Taiwan, weigh about 2.2
> to 2.4 pounds.
>
> Forks are lighter today too, weighing in around 300g versus the older
> 350-400g for carbon steerer tube forks. The major difference is that
> today's frames all come with 1 and 1/8" fork; while the older 90s/
> early 2000 ti frames probably used 1" forks. Nevertheless, 1" forks
> are still available from all the major mfrs like Reynolds, True Temper
> (Alpha Q) and Easton.
>
> IF you find a good deal and like ti, then get it and RIDE!!!!
>
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Date: 14 May 2007 22:45:31
From: bfd
Subject: Re: New carbon or older titanium?
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"Mike Jacoubowsky" <mikej1@ix.netcom.com > wrote in message
news:rgb2i.3269$zj3.1722@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
> Unless warranty policies have changed, an older Merlin Extralight (or
> other similar "ultralight" Ti bikes) might not be the best bet. Those come
> from a time when the Ti manufacturers thought it a good idea to try and
> compete with carbon frames on the basis of weight, and that just wasn't a
> good idea. You can build a very solid carbon frame at 2.5 lbs, but the
> floor for a solid Ti frame, at the time, was closer to 3lbs or so. The
> "ultralights" tended to prove the point that there is a bottom floor for
> weight which is tough to go below without having problems (typically
> downtubes that would develop tears at the cable stop fittings). There
> should be few issues with slightly-heavier Ti frames.
>
Actually, the problems with the downtubes developing a break (or tear as
Mike calls it) at the cable stop fitting (shifter boss) is not limited to
the Extralight. My buddy has a Massachusett-built Merlin titanium Standard
Road frame (not the Extralight) and after 10+ years of riding, his developed
a nice crack around the shifter boss. Luckily, he's a lightweight at about
140 pounds and caught the crack in time.. Since he was the original owner,
he returned it to Litespeed and they repaired it with a new downtube and
headtube for free. After talking to three high end shops in the SF Bay Area,
it appears that this was a common problem for both standard AND extralight
Merlins.
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