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Main
Date: 09 Aug 2007 12:33:31
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Raleigh CF bike recall
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From the Metheny and Burke e-newsletter today:
Bicycle recall: Raleigh America and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety
Commission are recalling 1,200 Chinese-made Raleigh Cadent bikes with
Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks. The forks can break
during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall. Raleigh
has received three reports of fork failures, resulting in a dislocated
shoulder, a concussion and a broken jaw. The recall involves the 2007
Raleigh Cadent 1.0, Cadent 2.0 and Cadent Carbon bicycle models with
carbon forks. They were sold at Raleigh dealers nationwide from January
through June 2007 for $660-$1,930. If you own one of these bikes, stop
riding it and take it to the place of purchase for a free fork
replacement. For more information, call Raleigh America toll-free at
888-805-6396 during 9-5 PT weekdays, or visit http://www.raleighusa.com
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 00:33:23
From: Ed Pirrero
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
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On Aug 12, 9:13 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0...@invailid.com > wrote:
> Bill "Sorni" Sornson wrote:
> > A Muzi wrote:
> >>> RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >>>> It's a China problem. If you contract to buy a thing and find that
> >>>> the product has been made with inadequate or dangerous materials it
> >>>> is the supplier's fault.
> >> Ed Pirrero wrote:
> >>> That was one of the reasons, when I was in the market for a Ti
> >>> hardtail MTB, I did not go to Habanero.
>
> >>> There were other, smaller, reasons as well. But the very fact that
> >>> the frames were made in the PRC scared the hell out of me. I
> >>> wouldn't build a Habanero frame up to a bike if it were given to me.
>
> >>> Worse, just try and go China-free in your shopping. Almost
> >>> impossible.
> >>> P.S. Found a nice, used Marin Ti frame for less than a new Habanero
> >>> frame. And made in Taiwan, by people who actually care about
> >>> bicycles, rather than merely money.
> >> I can't say anything about motivation in PRC - maybe Mark tosses out
> >> frames which do not meet inspection standards - but we've sold
> >> Habaneros for a good long while with _not one single quality issue_.
>
> >> Habaneros arrive dependably dead straight and, unusual today, threaded
> >> and faced properly. That's more than most Ti frames can claim. We're
> >> doing quite a few BB re-cuts on new Ti frames purchased elsewhere this
> >> year. Not so on Habaneros. So save your $100 at purchase. We'll take
> >> that to get you outboard-BB working.
>
> > What Ed didn't have the honesty to say was that he black-listed Mark's
> > frames due to his (Mark's) politics. Says more about him (Eddie Pea) than
> > it does Mark.
>
> Now you (Sorni) are channeling Carl Fogel.
Without the style, politeness or wit.
E.P.
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 00:32:39
From: Ed Pirrero
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
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On Aug 12, 9:11 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me > wrote:
> A Muzi wrote:
> >> RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >>> It's a China problem. If you contract to buy a thing and find that
> >>> the product has been made with inadequate or dangerous materials it
> >>> is the supplier's fault.
>
> > Ed Pirrero wrote:
> >> That was one of the reasons, when I was in the market for a Ti
> >> hardtail MTB, I did not go to Habanero.
>
> >> There were other, smaller, reasons as well. But the very fact that
> >> the frames were made in the PRC scared the hell out of me. I
> >> wouldn't build a Habanero frame up to a bike if it were given to me.
>
> >> Worse, just try and go China-free in your shopping. Almost
> >> impossible.
> >> P.S. Found a nice, used Marin Ti frame for less than a new Habanero
> >> frame. And made in Taiwan, by people who actually care about
> >> bicycles, rather than merely money.
>
> > I can't say anything about motivation in PRC - maybe Mark tosses out
> > frames which do not meet inspection standards - but we've sold
> > Habaneros for a good long while with _not one single quality issue_.
>
> > Habaneros arrive dependably dead straight and, unusual today, threaded
> > and faced properly. That's more than most Ti frames can claim. We're
> > doing quite a few BB re-cuts on new Ti frames purchased elsewhere this
> > year. Not so on Habaneros. So save your $100 at purchase. We'll take
> > that to get you outboard-BB working.
>
> What Ed didn't have the honesty to say was that he black-listed Mark's
> frames due to his (Mark's) politics. Says more about him (Eddie Pea) than
> it does Mark.
Uh, Bill? I made my call long before I knew Mark's politics in depth.
But it was part of my decision-making - the rabid spewing, not the
flavor. If some left-winger did the same thing, it would also color
my purchasing decisions.
So before you shove your foot any further in your mouth, at least have
the decency to get your facts straight. (I won't hold my breath for
that to happen...)
E.P.
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 21:43:49
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
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Ed Pirrero wrote:
> On Aug 12, 9:11 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>> A Muzi wrote:
>>>> RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> It's a China problem. If you contract to buy a thing and find that
>>>>> the product has been made with inadequate or dangerous materials it
>>>>> is the supplier's fault.
>>> Ed Pirrero wrote:
>>>> That was one of the reasons, when I was in the market for a Ti
>>>> hardtail MTB, I did not go to Habanero.
>>>> There were other, smaller, reasons as well. But the very fact that
>>>> the frames were made in the PRC scared the hell out of me. I
>>>> wouldn't build a Habanero frame up to a bike if it were given to me.
>>>> Worse, just try and go China-free in your shopping. Almost
>>>> impossible.
>>>> P.S. Found a nice, used Marin Ti frame for less than a new Habanero
>>>> frame. And made in Taiwan, by people who actually care about
>>>> bicycles, rather than merely money.
>>> I can't say anything about motivation in PRC - maybe Mark tosses out
>>> frames which do not meet inspection standards - but we've sold
>>> Habaneros for a good long while with _not one single quality issue_.
>>> Habaneros arrive dependably dead straight and, unusual today, threaded
>>> and faced properly. That's more than most Ti frames can claim. We're
>>> doing quite a few BB re-cuts on new Ti frames purchased elsewhere this
>>> year. Not so on Habaneros. So save your $100 at purchase. We'll take
>>> that to get you outboard-BB working.
>> What Ed didn't have the honesty to say was that he black-listed Mark's
>> frames due to his (Mark's) politics. Says more about him (Eddie Pea) than
>> it does Mark.
>
> Uh, Bill? I made my call long before I knew Mark's politics in depth.
You will never convince certain people on rec.bicycles.tech of that, and
they will call you a liar if you state otherwise.
> But it was part of my decision-making - the rabid spewing, not the
> flavor. If some left-winger did the same thing, it would also color
> my purchasing decisions.
I question anyone who appear to back a party rather than an ideology.
Similarly, those who can not find ANY fault with a particular politician.
> So before you shove your foot any further in your mouth, at least have
> the decency to get your facts straight. (I won't hold my breath for
> that to happen...)
Good plan.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 03:50:15
From: Ed Pirrero
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
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On Aug 12, 8:10 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> > RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >> It's a China problem. If you contract to buy a thing and find that the product
> >> has been made with inadequate or dangerous materials it is the supplier's fault.
> Ed Pirrero wrote:
> > That was one of the reasons, when I was in the market for a Ti
> > hardtail MTB, I did not go to Habanero.
>
> > There were other, smaller, reasons as well. But the very fact that
> > the frames were made in the PRC scared the hell out of me. I wouldn't
> > build a Habanero frame up to a bike if it were given to me.
>
> > Worse, just try and go China-free in your shopping. Almost
> > impossible.
> > P.S. Found a nice, used Marin Ti frame for less than a new Habanero
> > frame. And made in Taiwan, by people who actually care about
> > bicycles, rather than merely money.
>
> I can't say anything about motivation in PRC - maybe Mark tosses out
> frames which do not meet inspection standards - but we've sold Habaneros
> for a good long while with _not one single quality issue_.
That's a good thing. I played the odds.
And quality was not the only issue.
> Habaneros arrive dependably dead straight and, unusual today, threaded
> and faced properly. That's more than most Ti frames can claim.
My used Marin needed no work. Maybe the PO had it done, or the shop
that sold it had it done.
Or, possibly, it came that way from the factory.
My decision to avoid PRC-made goods as much as possible does not
discount the possibility that some companies may actually have QA/QC
departments that actually function.
Again, the odds are long, and seeing the "Made in China" tag is enough
to make a purchase decision, IMO. Recent news stories reinforce
this. Again, quality issues were not the only factor.
E.P.
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Date: 12 Aug 2007 14:34:19
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 12, 4:24 pm, Ed Pirrero <gcmschem...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Aug 10, 7:23 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > It's a China problem. If you contract to buy a thing and find that the product
> > has been made with inadequate or dangerous materials it is the supplier's fault.
>
> That was one of the reasons, when I was in the market for a Ti
> hardtail MTB, I did not go to Habanero.
>
> There were other, smaller, reasons as well. But the very fact that
> the frames were made in the PRC scared the hell out of me. I wouldn't
> build a Habanero frame up to a bike if it were given to me.
Do you have any evidence of Habenero frames being problem prone?
>
> Worse, just try and go China-free in your shopping. Almost
> impossible.
>
> E.P.
>
> P.S. Found a nice, used Marin Ti frame for less than a new Habanero
> frame. And made in Taiwan, by people who actually care about
> bicycles, rather than merely money.
"people who actually care about bicycles"? Do you have evidence of
that? Or evidence that the people who manufacture Habernaro frames do
not "actually care about bicycles"?
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Date: 12 Aug 2007 21:24:58
From: Ed Pirrero
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
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On Aug 10, 7:23 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
>
> It's a China problem. If you contract to buy a thing and find that the product
> has been made with inadequate or dangerous materials it is the supplier's fault.
That was one of the reasons, when I was in the market for a Ti
hardtail MTB, I did not go to Habanero.
There were other, smaller, reasons as well. But the very fact that
the frames were made in the PRC scared the hell out of me. I wouldn't
build a Habanero frame up to a bike if it were given to me.
Worse, just try and go China-free in your shopping. Almost
impossible.
E.P.
P.S. Found a nice, used Marin Ti frame for less than a new Habanero
frame. And made in Taiwan, by people who actually care about
bicycles, rather than merely money.
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Date: 12 Aug 2007 22:10:26
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
> RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>> It's a China problem. If you contract to buy a thing and find that the product
>> has been made with inadequate or dangerous materials it is the supplier's fault.
Ed Pirrero wrote:
> That was one of the reasons, when I was in the market for a Ti
> hardtail MTB, I did not go to Habanero.
>
> There were other, smaller, reasons as well. But the very fact that
> the frames were made in the PRC scared the hell out of me. I wouldn't
> build a Habanero frame up to a bike if it were given to me.
>
> Worse, just try and go China-free in your shopping. Almost
> impossible.
> P.S. Found a nice, used Marin Ti frame for less than a new Habanero
> frame. And made in Taiwan, by people who actually care about
> bicycles, rather than merely money.
I can't say anything about motivation in PRC - maybe Mark tosses out
frames which do not meet inspection standards - but we've sold Habaneros
for a good long while with _not one single quality issue_.
Habaneros arrive dependably dead straight and, unusual today, threaded
and faced properly. That's more than most Ti frames can claim. We're
doing quite a few BB re-cuts on new Ti frames purchased elsewhere this
year. Not so on Habaneros. So save your $100 at purchase. We'll take
that to get you outboard-BB working.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 12 Aug 2007 21:11:25
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
A Muzi wrote:
>> RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>> It's a China problem. If you contract to buy a thing and find that
>>> the product has been made with inadequate or dangerous materials it
>>> is the supplier's fault.
>
> Ed Pirrero wrote:
>> That was one of the reasons, when I was in the market for a Ti
>> hardtail MTB, I did not go to Habanero.
>>
>> There were other, smaller, reasons as well. But the very fact that
>> the frames were made in the PRC scared the hell out of me. I
>> wouldn't build a Habanero frame up to a bike if it were given to me.
>>
>> Worse, just try and go China-free in your shopping. Almost
>> impossible.
>> P.S. Found a nice, used Marin Ti frame for less than a new Habanero
>> frame. And made in Taiwan, by people who actually care about
>> bicycles, rather than merely money.
>
> I can't say anything about motivation in PRC - maybe Mark tosses out
> frames which do not meet inspection standards - but we've sold
> Habaneros for a good long while with _not one single quality issue_.
>
> Habaneros arrive dependably dead straight and, unusual today, threaded
> and faced properly. That's more than most Ti frames can claim. We're
> doing quite a few BB re-cuts on new Ti frames purchased elsewhere this
> year. Not so on Habaneros. So save your $100 at purchase. We'll take
> that to get you outboard-BB working.
What Ed didn't have the honesty to say was that he black-listed Mark's
frames due to his (Mark's) politics. Says more about him (Eddie Pea) than
it does Mark.
BS (deep)
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 01:15:15
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:11:25 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me >
wrote:
>What Ed didn't have the honesty to say was that he black-listed Mark's
>frames due to his (Mark's) politics. Says more about him (Eddie Pea) than
>it does Mark.
What Sorni doesn't have the honesty to say is that he enjoys hearing
other right-wing nutjobs spew hate.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 12 Aug 2007 23:13:49
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Bill "Sorni" Sornson wrote:
> A Muzi wrote:
>>> RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> It's a China problem. If you contract to buy a thing and find that
>>>> the product has been made with inadequate or dangerous materials it
>>>> is the supplier's fault.
>> Ed Pirrero wrote:
>>> That was one of the reasons, when I was in the market for a Ti
>>> hardtail MTB, I did not go to Habanero.
>>>
>>> There were other, smaller, reasons as well. But the very fact that
>>> the frames were made in the PRC scared the hell out of me. I
>>> wouldn't build a Habanero frame up to a bike if it were given to me.
>>>
>>> Worse, just try and go China-free in your shopping. Almost
>>> impossible.
>>> P.S. Found a nice, used Marin Ti frame for less than a new Habanero
>>> frame. And made in Taiwan, by people who actually care about
>>> bicycles, rather than merely money.
>> I can't say anything about motivation in PRC - maybe Mark tosses out
>> frames which do not meet inspection standards - but we've sold
>> Habaneros for a good long while with _not one single quality issue_.
>>
>> Habaneros arrive dependably dead straight and, unusual today, threaded
>> and faced properly. That's more than most Ti frames can claim. We're
>> doing quite a few BB re-cuts on new Ti frames purchased elsewhere this
>> year. Not so on Habaneros. So save your $100 at purchase. We'll take
>> that to get you outboard-BB working.
>
> What Ed didn't have the honesty to say was that he black-listed Mark's
> frames due to his (Mark's) politics. Says more about him (Eddie Pea) than
> it does Mark.
Now you (Sorni) are channeling Carl Fogel.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition!"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 12 Aug 2007 21:12:12
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:24:58 -0000, Ed Pirrero <gcmschemist@gmail.com > wrote:
>On Aug 10, 7:23 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> It's a China problem. If you contract to buy a thing and find that the product
>> has been made with inadequate or dangerous materials it is the supplier's fault.
>
>That was one of the reasons, when I was in the market for a Ti
>hardtail MTB, I did not go to Habanero.
I would be interested in Mark's take on this. I trust that he had found a
supplier who was reliable and he evidently has stayed atop the QC.
>There were other, smaller, reasons as well. But the very fact that
>the frames were made in the PRC scared the hell out of me. I wouldn't
>build a Habanero frame up to a bike if it were given to me.
That's a bit extreme, but hell, I'd take it off your hands.
>Worse, just try and go China-free in your shopping. Almost
>impossible.
It is.
Ron
>E.P.
>
>P.S. Found a nice, used Marin Ti frame for less than a new Habanero
>frame. And made in Taiwan, by people who actually care about
>bicycles, rather than merely money.
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Date: 12 Aug 2007 16:47:03
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Ed Pirrero wrote:
> On Aug 10, 7:23 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>> It's a China problem. If you contract to buy a thing and find that the product
>> has been made with inadequate or dangerous materials it is the supplier's fault.
>
> That was one of the reasons, when I was in the market for a Ti
> hardtail MTB, I did not go to Habanero.
>
> There were other, smaller, reasons as well...
Like the gross misuse of the ";)" emoticon?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Twisting may help if yawl can chew gum and walk.” - gene daniels
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 10 Aug 2007 18:23:30
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 10, 7:33 pm, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 11:58:22 -0500, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> >In article <eqtob31igcg0m1o8lcgvm4hh3jmi67m...@4ax.com>,
> > RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 05:41:29 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
> >> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >> >Exactly. This is not a "Chinese problem", it's an American company
> >> >bottom feeding problem. Low balling vendors supplying iffy product
> >> >are hardly unique to China. Remember folks, there's alot of
> >> >Made-in-USA crap out there, too.
>
> >> There is crap and there is deliberately mislabeled and fraudulently
> >> presented crap. There is all the difference in the world between the
> >> two. If you buy a bag of grain meal and it's crap there will be
> >> debris and insect and rodent and all the usual. That is plain normal
> >> crap and that's what goes in animal feed. But when the bag is sold as
> >> crap meal and it actually contains a deliberately added contaminant
> >> that causes favorable protein measurements and is not normally tested
> >> for because there is no reason for this particular contaminant to
> >> occur in grain then you are talking about something very, very
> >> different.
>
> >> Haiti, Pakistan, Malaysia will all sell you crap, but it takes
> >> decades of Commie indoctrination and a centuries old contempt for the
> >> common man to do the other thing.
>
> >Sorry, Ron, but the history of capitalism is rife with exactly the same
> >set of problems. Just look into "patent medicines" to see plenty of
> >examples. It's a subset of human nature, not "Commie indoctrination."
> >The difference is that now it is easy for bad people to produce and
> >market these things in huge quantities.
>
> Fair enough, it is a human nature problem. It is an anachronism in the 21st
> century West and I'll blame the commies for the present state of Chinese
> backwardness on the issue. There is a real difference between normal crap
> products and the contempt for the life and safety and livelihoods of others that
> we've seen in a the recent recalls. Communism has a long history of unsafe and
> polluted consumer goods for which there was no recourse. The business culture of
> China still hasn't caught on to the change.
>
> Greed is human, preventing it from doing harm to others is the job of culture,
> social structures and government. Ours are better than theirs.
>
God bless America! Hip-hip-hooray! Stars and Stripes forever! Strike
up the Sousa march and let's go kick some Commie ass!
:-[
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Date: 11 Aug 2007 01:06:36
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 10, 5:33 pm, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> Fair enough, it is a human nature problem. It is an anachronism in the 21st
> century West and I'll blame the commies for the present state of Chinese
> backwardness on the issue. There is a real difference between normal crap
> products and the contempt for the life and safety and livelihoods of others that
> we've seen in a the recent recalls. Communism has a long history of unsafe and
> polluted consumer goods for which there was no recourse. The business culture of
> China still hasn't caught on to the change.
>
> Greed is human, preventing it from doing harm to others is the job of culture,
> social structures and government. Ours are better than theirs.
Ours have developed over a longer period of time (I mean just
that we've been industrialized longer). In our early stages of
industrial production, everybody was under pressure to make
things faster, cheaper and so on, just like they are now in China,
but there was less instant feedback, so the pressure on an
industrialist in the US in 1900 was not 24-hour the way it is
now for an industrialist in Asia.
Nevertheless, we had terrible safety problems, working
conditions, and so on, and this was centered around food
as well as heavy industry. People like Upton Sinclair
wrote exposes of food production such as meatpacking.
Sinclair was actually trying to agitate for better conditions
for workers, but what really turned everyone's stomachs
was the descriptions of what was going into their food.
The situation in China is partly a problem not so much of
communism but of state capitalism (where the state has
ownership in profit-making businesses and thus an interest
in not shutting them down). This is a holdover from their
Communist Party, but it isn't really a consequence only of
small-c communism; rather a mixture that doesn't break
down along the usual communism vs. capitalism lines.
Of course, the reason this all happens is because
consumers (us) want their stuff and want it cheap.
I understand this, I hunt bargains too, but sometimes
you can't actually make it cheaper without cutting corners.
They don't list externalities like food safety, worker safety,
and environmental damage on the price tag.
Ben
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Date: 15 Aug 2007 11:45:29
From: Ed Pirrero
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 14, 7:43 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0...@invailid.com > wrote:
> Ed Pirrero wrote:
> > On Aug 13, 7:37 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> > <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
> >> Tim McNamara wrote:
> >>> In article <1186994126.066804.46...@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> >>> Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> Jay Beattie wrote:
> >>>>> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K
> >>>>> a year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that to a family
> >>>>> practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education and
> >>>>> student loans making $140K.
> >>>> So what makes a physician intrinsically more valuable than a
> >>>> longshoreman who has been working longer in his career? Tradition?
> >>>> Conventional wisdom? Bad handwriting?
> >>> LOL. If you want to know who's important in the world, imagine the
> >>> consequences of life without them. Imagine life without professional
> >>> athletes. Now imagine live without garbage haulers. Generally speaking
> >>> income and actual importance of one's job tend to be inversely
> >>> correlated. If you want to make a lot of money, get a job that is
> >>> intrinsically useless. ;-)...
> >> Funny that the right talks "family values" so much, but they think being
> >> a parent is nearly worthless (hence the abolishment of AFDC) [1].
>
> >> [1] Yes, I know this was under Bill Clinton, which simply goes to prove
> >> that his administration was right-wing except of the issues of sexual
> >> morality, where it was mainstream liberal.
>
> > Have you forgotten the sexual peccedilloes of some of the GOP folks in
> > D.C.? And the famousness of Gingrich and Guiliani for their serial
> > marriages?
>
> > Please. The "family values" thing is pure canard and propaganda.
> > Only an idiot would fall for that rhetoric.
>
> That means that close to half the people who turn up at the voting booth
> are idiots according to Ed Pirrero.
Oh, I don't agree with that - plenty of folks who habitually vote GOP
know the family values propaganda for what it is. I also know there
are folks who habitually vote Democrat and don't buy *their*
propaganda.
Holding one's nose to vote for the candidates that are most likely to
vote in your interests the majority of the time is really where nearly
100% of the electorate is today...
E.P.
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| | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 20:41:33
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Ed Pirrero wrote:
> On Aug 14, 7:43 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
>> Ed Pirrero wrote:
>>> On Aug 13, 7:37 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
>>> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>> In article <1186994126.066804.46...@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>> Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Jay Beattie wrote:
>>>>>>> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K
>>>>>>> a year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that to a family
>>>>>>> practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education and
>>>>>>> student loans making $140K.
>>>>>> So what makes a physician intrinsically more valuable than a
>>>>>> longshoreman who has been working longer in his career? Tradition?
>>>>>> Conventional wisdom? Bad handwriting?
>>>>> LOL. If you want to know who's important in the world, imagine the
>>>>> consequences of life without them. Imagine life without professional
>>>>> athletes. Now imagine live without garbage haulers. Generally speaking
>>>>> income and actual importance of one's job tend to be inversely
>>>>> correlated. If you want to make a lot of money, get a job that is
>>>>> intrinsically useless. ;-)...
>>>> Funny that the right talks "family values" so much, but they think being
>>>> a parent is nearly worthless (hence the abolishment of AFDC) [1].
>>>> [1] Yes, I know this was under Bill Clinton, which simply goes to prove
>>>> that his administration was right-wing except of the issues of sexual
>>>> morality, where it was mainstream liberal.
>>> Have you forgotten the sexual peccedilloes of some of the GOP folks in
>>> D.C.? And the famousness of Gingrich and Guiliani for their serial
>>> marriages?
>>> Please. The "family values" thing is pure canard and propaganda.
>>> Only an idiot would fall for that rhetoric.
>> That means that close to half the people who turn up at the voting booth
>> are idiots according to Ed Pirrero.
>
> Oh, I don't agree with that - plenty of folks who habitually vote GOP
> know the family values propaganda for what it is. I also know there
> are folks who habitually vote Democrat and don't buy *their*
> propaganda.
>
> Holding one's nose to vote for the candidates that are most likely to
> vote in your interests the majority of the time is really where nearly
> 100% of the electorate is today...
Then why are the non-rich voting Republican?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 19:32:37
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 11:45:29 -0000, Ed Pirrero <gcmschemist@gmail.com >
wrote:
>Holding one's nose to vote for the candidates that are most likely to
>vote in your interests the majority of the time is really where nearly
>100% of the electorate is today...
I think there are many relatively poor people who have voted
Republican even if it's against their interests in terms of economics.
--
JT
****************************
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| | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 20:17:12
From:
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 13, 8:11 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net > wrote:
> In article <rubrum-24C26F.15505013082...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,
> Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <timmcn-EFB937.09171613082...@news.iphouse.com>,
> > Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > > There aren't any unions for doctors or lawyers, AFAIK. I vaguely
> > > recall that it may actually be illegal for doctors to unionize.
> > > The American Medical Association fills some of the role of a union
> > > but does not do collective bargaining.
>
> > They set the rates and buy congress-critters.
>
> They don't actually set the rates, if by that you mean the cost of
> health care services. There are two countervailing forces: the setting
> of a "cash price" for services which is done by beancounters, and the
> setting of the maximum price insurance companies will pay which is set
> by other beancounters. Doctors have the choice of accepting the
> reimbursement rate as set by the insurance company or declining to be a
> provider. If you don't have health care, you pay the full cash rate
> which can be twice as high as what insurance companies pay (or you
> default on the bill and everybody else picks up the tab sooner or
> later).
>
> The AMA certainly does spend a lot of money lobbying Congress(es) at the
> federal and state level. The AMA acts like a guild rather than a union.
Dear Tim,
A rather powerful guild:
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0025-7079(196410%2F12)2%3A4%3C244%3ATAMAAT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-D
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 09:19:20
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 01:06:36 -0000, "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org"
<bjw@mambo.ucolick.org > wrote:
>On Aug 10, 5:33 pm, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Fair enough, it is a human nature problem. It is an anachronism in the 21st
>> century West and I'll blame the commies for the present state of Chinese
>> backwardness on the issue. There is a real difference between normal crap
>> products and the contempt for the life and safety and livelihoods of others that
>> we've seen in a the recent recalls. Communism has a long history of unsafe and
>> polluted consumer goods for which there was no recourse. The business culture of
>> China still hasn't caught on to the change.
>>
>> Greed is human, preventing it from doing harm to others is the job of culture,
>> social structures and government. Ours are better than theirs.
>
>Ours have developed over a longer period of time (I mean just
>that we've been industrialized longer). In our early stages of
>industrial production, everybody was under pressure to make
>things faster, cheaper and so on, just like they are now in China,
>but there was less instant feedback, so the pressure on an
>industrialist in the US in 1900 was not 24-hour the way it is
>now for an industrialist in Asia.
>
>Nevertheless, we had terrible safety problems, working
>conditions, and so on, and this was centered around food
>as well as heavy industry. People like Upton Sinclair
>wrote exposes of food production such as meatpacking.
>Sinclair was actually trying to agitate for better conditions
>for workers, but what really turned everyone's stomachs
>was the descriptions of what was going into their food.
I was wondering when Sinclair was going to show up. Good example. The Chinese
would've hanged him (so would the pre-Com Chinese too, so I don't know why I
keep dumping on the Commies) - here he ran for president.
>The situation in China is partly a problem not so much of
>communism but of state capitalism (where the state has
>ownership in profit-making businesses and thus an interest
>in not shutting them down). This is a holdover from their
>Communist Party, but it isn't really a consequence only of
>small-c communism; rather a mixture that doesn't break
>down along the usual communism vs. capitalism lines.
Some smart guy once pointed out that China was not so much interested in
following a capitalist model, but something more like the imperial British
mercantilist approach. It was more familiar to them and appeals to their desire
for central organization with flexibility at the margins. It wouldn't be
incompatible with the whole Dickensian angle this conversation gets back to.
>Of course, the reason this all happens is because
>consumers (us) want their stuff and want it cheap.
>I understand this, I hunt bargains too, but sometimes
>you can't actually make it cheaper without cutting corners.
>They don't list externalities like food safety, worker safety,
>and environmental damage on the price tag.
Poland had the Beer Party after wall fell. They simply advocated all the things
that make for a good beer drinking experience collected them together into a
platform that ended up being pretty normal European Christian Democrat. It's all
connected free speech, right of the people to petition, free labor market with
right to collective action. All those things that moderate or remedy excess and
oppression.
Ron
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 16:43:32
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article <b4drb3h6tvv4g4vqm2cpm1mbufdm56qajr@4ax.com >,
RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> Poland had the Beer Party after wall fell. They simply advocated all
> the things that make for a good beer drinking experience collected
> them together into a platform that ended up being pretty normal
> European Christian Democrat. It's all connected free speech, right of
> the people to petition, free labor market with right to collective
> action. All those things that moderate or remedy excess and
> oppression.
All things that are increasingly curtailed by the New Right in the
United States.
|
| | | | |
Date: 16 Aug 2007 02:34:12
From: Ed Pirrero
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 15, 6:41 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0...@invailid.com > wrote:
> Ed Pirrero wrote:
> > On Aug 14, 7:43 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> > <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
> >> Ed Pirrero wrote:
> >>> On Aug 13, 7:37 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> >>> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
> >>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
> >>>>> In article <1186994126.066804.46...@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> >>>>> Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> Jay Beattie wrote:
> >>>>>>> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K
> >>>>>>> a year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that to a family
> >>>>>>> practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education and
> >>>>>>> student loans making $140K.
> >>>>>> So what makes a physician intrinsically more valuable than a
> >>>>>> longshoreman who has been working longer in his career? Tradition?
> >>>>>> Conventional wisdom? Bad handwriting?
> >>>>> LOL. If you want to know who's important in the world, imagine the
> >>>>> consequences of life without them. Imagine life without professional
> >>>>> athletes. Now imagine live without garbage haulers. Generally speaking
> >>>>> income and actual importance of one's job tend to be inversely
> >>>>> correlated. If you want to make a lot of money, get a job that is
> >>>>> intrinsically useless. ;-)...
> >>>> Funny that the right talks "family values" so much, but they think being
> >>>> a parent is nearly worthless (hence the abolishment of AFDC) [1].
> >>>> [1] Yes, I know this was under Bill Clinton, which simply goes to prove
> >>>> that his administration was right-wing except of the issues of sexual
> >>>> morality, where it was mainstream liberal.
> >>> Have you forgotten the sexual peccedilloes of some of the GOP folks in
> >>> D.C.? And the famousness of Gingrich and Guiliani for their serial
> >>> marriages?
> >>> Please. The "family values" thing is pure canard and propaganda.
> >>> Only an idiot would fall for that rhetoric.
> >> That means that close to half the people who turn up at the voting booth
> >> are idiots according to Ed Pirrero.
>
> > Oh, I don't agree with that - plenty of folks who habitually vote GOP
> > know the family values propaganda for what it is. I also know there
> > are folks who habitually vote Democrat and don't buy *their*
> > propaganda.
>
> > Holding one's nose to vote for the candidates that are most likely to
> > vote in your interests the majority of the time is really where nearly
> > 100% of the electorate is today...
>
> Then why are the non-rich voting Republican?
Family values ain't the only propaganda. The lie that rural areas
send their taxes to the cities (it's the other way around), the lie
that "liberals" are somehow soft on defense (history shows otherwise),
and that "liberals" want to take all their guns away (some liberals do
want that, but never enough to actually make it happen).
There's a lot of fear-mongering out there. And it ain't all from the
right, either. Michael Moore and Al Gore do their own versions of the
"scare them to vote in the correct manner" too.
Single-issue voters are few and far between.
E.P.
|
| | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 17:07:29
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <b4drb3h6tvv4g4vqm2cpm1mbufdm56qajr@4ax.com>,
> RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Poland had the Beer Party after wall fell. They simply advocated all
>> the things that make for a good beer drinking experience collected
>> them together into a platform that ended up being pretty normal
>> European Christian Democrat. It's all connected free speech, right of
>> the people to petition, free labor market with right to collective
>> action. All those things that moderate or remedy excess and
>> oppression.
>
> All things that are increasingly curtailed by the New Right in the
> United States.
Along with smoking, baby formula, transfat, lightbulbs...
Oh, wait.
LOL
|
| | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 21:19:53
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 12, 6:01 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:54:27 -0700, Jay Beattie
>
> <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> >There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K a
> >year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that to a family
> >practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education and student
> >loans making $140K.
>
> Is that longshoreman thing common? And does the job involve personal
> danger?
Not much personal danger since the move to containerized cargo and the
demise of log cargo. There are people who make $30+ an hour checking
in cars off a car carriers -- which is no more dangerous than being a
valet parker. The longshoremen employed unloading rail cars at the
local grain docks just push buttons. Far, far less danger than most
construction jobs. Infinitely less danger than working on a commercial
fishing boat. There are a dwindling number of longshore workers in
Portland.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 01:16:34
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:19:53 -0700, Jay Beattie
<jbeattie@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
>On Aug 12, 6:01 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
>wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:54:27 -0700, Jay Beattie
>>
>> <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>> >There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K a
>> >year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that to a family
>> >practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education and student
>> >loans making $140K.
>>
>> Is that longshoreman thing common? And does the job involve personal
>> danger?
>
>Not much personal danger since the move to containerized cargo and the
>demise of log cargo. There are people who make $30+ an hour checking
>in cars off a car carriers -- which is no more dangerous than being a
>valet parker. The longshoremen employed unloading rail cars at the
>local grain docks just push buttons. Far, far less danger than most
>construction jobs. Infinitely less danger than working on a commercial
>fishing boat. There are a dwindling number of longshore workers in
>Portland.
is the longshoreman thing common? Are they making $300K year on
$30+/hour?
--
JT
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|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 21:26:51
From: Andrew Price
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 01:16:34 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
<usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
>is the longshoreman thing common? Are they making $300K year on
>$30+/hour?
I doubt it, as there aren't enough hours in a year for them to reach
$300K at $30 per hour, even working round the clock, 7 days a week...
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 20:44:12
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:26:51 +0200, Andrew Price <ajprice@free.fr >
wrote:
>On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 01:16:34 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
><usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote:
>
>>is the longshoreman thing common? Are they making $300K year on
>>$30+/hour?
>
>I doubt it, as there aren't enough hours in a year for them to reach
>$300K at $30 per hour, even working round the clock, 7 days a week...
I doubt it too, but I'd like to hear from the person who described the
$300K/year longshoreman.
--
JT
****************************
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| | | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 22:09:27
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article <46be4f42$0$30611$4c368faf@roadrunner.com >,
"Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me > wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <b4drb3h6tvv4g4vqm2cpm1mbufdm56qajr@4ax.com>, RonSonic
> > <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Poland had the Beer Party after wall fell. They simply advocated
> >> all the things that make for a good beer drinking experience
> >> collected them together into a platform that ended up being pretty
> >> normal European Christian Democrat. It's all connected free
> >> speech, right of the people to petition, free labor market with
> >> right to collective action. All those things that moderate or
> >> remedy excess and oppression.
> >
> > All things that are increasingly curtailed by the New Right in the
> > United States.
>
> Along with smoking, baby formula, transfat, lightbulbs...
>
> Oh, wait.
>
> LOL
Huh? None of those things are being curtailed by the government. There
are market pressures brought to bear on baby formulas, trans fats and
incandescent lightbulbs- all of which is normal market economy and is
understood as such by conservatives and liberals. The government has
taken an official stance of advising against smoking, but other than
curtailing the exposure of nonsmokers to second-hand smoke has not
otherwise interfered with people's right to choose to smoke.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 12:36:59
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 22:09:27 -0500, Tim McNamara
<timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote:
[about a Sorni rant]
>None of those things are being curtailed by the government. There
>are market pressures brought to bear on baby formulas, trans fats and
>incandescent lightbulbs- all of which is normal market economy and is
>understood as such by conservatives and liberals.
The government in New York City is trying to stop many restaurants
from using trans fats, so that's one example. Local government.
Oh wait, the initiative came from a local Republican.....hahaha that's
funny considering Sorni's allegiances.
--
JT
****************************
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|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 14:55:52
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 12:36:59 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
<usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 22:09:27 -0500, Tim McNamara
><timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
>[about a Sorni rant]
>
>>None of those things are being curtailed by the government. There
>>are market pressures brought to bear on baby formulas, trans fats and
>>incandescent lightbulbs- all of which is normal market economy and is
>>understood as such by conservatives and liberals.
>
>The government in New York City is trying to stop many restaurants
>from using trans fats, so that's one example. Local government.
>
>Oh wait, the initiative came from a local Republican.....hahaha that's
>funny considering Sorni's allegiances.
A local RINO.
Ron
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 20:30:40
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <46be4f42$0$30611$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me> wrote:
>
>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>> In article <b4drb3h6tvv4g4vqm2cpm1mbufdm56qajr@4ax.com>, RonSonic
>>> <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Poland had the Beer Party after wall fell. They simply advocated
>>>> all the things that make for a good beer drinking experience
>>>> collected them together into a platform that ended up being pretty
>>>> normal European Christian Democrat. It's all connected free
>>>> speech, right of the people to petition, free labor market with
>>>> right to collective action. All those things that moderate or
>>>> remedy excess and oppression.
>>>
>>> All things that are increasingly curtailed by the New Right in the
>>> United States.
>>
>> Along with smoking, baby formula, transfat, lightbulbs...
>>
>> Oh, wait.
>>
>> LOL
>
> Huh? None of those things are being curtailed by the government.
> There are market pressures brought to bear on baby formulas, trans
> fats and incandescent lightbulbs-
Governments like NYC are moving to ban such things. Your Google broke or
somethin'?
all of which is normal market
> economy and is understood as such by conservatives and liberals. The
> government has taken an official stance of advising against smoking,
> but other than curtailing the exposure of nonsmokers to second-hand
> smoke has not otherwise interfered with people's right to choose to
> smoke.
Ever hear of prohibitive taxes? Your Google broke or sumthin'?!?
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 12:37:50
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 20:30:40 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me >
wrote:
>Governments like NYC are moving to ban such things.
It's not a Democrat or progressive that took the lead in that you
dope.
--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 14:55:11
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 12:37:50 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
<usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 20:30:40 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me>
>wrote:
>
>>Governments like NYC are moving to ban such things.
>
>It's not a Democrat or progressive that took the lead in that you
>dope.
Bloomberg ran as a Republican only because he wasn't black enough or deranged
enough to survive a NYC Democrat primary. He had been a Dem his entire life
before deciding to run.
Ron
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 15:45:21
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 14:55:11 -0400, RonSonic
<ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
>On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 12:37:50 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
><usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 20:30:40 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Governments like NYC are moving to ban such things.
>>
>>It's not a Democrat or progressive that took the lead in that you
>>dope.
>
>Bloomberg ran as a Republican only because he wasn't black enough or deranged
>enough to survive a NYC Democrat primary. He had been a Dem his entire life
>before deciding to run.
He's a Republican. The scary anti-civil liberties stuff he pulled in
coordination with the Republican National Convention before the last
presidential election is an example of that.
--
JT
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| | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 10:46:51
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article <46be7ee1$0$31226$4c368faf@roadrunner.com >,
"Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me > wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <46be4f42$0$30611$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, "Bill
> > Sornson" <askme@ask.me> wrote:
> >
> >> Tim McNamara wrote:
> >>> In article <b4drb3h6tvv4g4vqm2cpm1mbufdm56qajr@4ax.com>, RonSonic
> >>> <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Poland had the Beer Party after wall fell. They simply advocated
> >>>> all the things that make for a good beer drinking experience
> >>>> collected them together into a platform that ended up being
> >>>> pretty normal European Christian Democrat. It's all connected
> >>>> free speech, right of the people to petition, free labor market
> >>>> with right to collective action. All those things that moderate
> >>>> or remedy excess and oppression.
> >>>
> >>> All things that are increasingly curtailed by the New Right in
> >>> the United States.
> >>
> >> Along with smoking, baby formula, transfat, lightbulbs...
> >>
> >> Oh, wait.
> >>
> >> LOL
> >
> > Huh? None of those things are being curtailed by the government.
> > There are market pressures brought to bear on baby formulas, trans
> > fats and incandescent lightbulbs-
>
> Governments like NYC are moving to ban such things. Your Google
> broke or somethin'?
NYC banned lightbulbs and baby formula? :-) NYC banned the use of
trans fats in restaurants, where food is not labeled and consumers had
less ability to make an informed choice about what they were eating.
When you buy food at the grocery store, you can determine the trans fat
content from the label- not so in a restaurant.
> > all of which is normal market economy and is understood as such by
> > conservatives and liberals. The government has taken an official
> > stance of advising against smoking, but other than curtailing the
> > exposure of nonsmokers to second-hand smoke has not otherwise
> > interfered with people's right to choose to smoke.
>
> Ever hear of prohibitive taxes? Your Google broke or sumthin'?!?
Taxes are just taxes (and no big deal; cf Mark 12:13-17). That's not a
curtailment. People can still choose to smoke- and do. I see no lack
of smokers every day.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 12:26:09
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Tim McNamara wrote:
> NYC banned lightbulbs and baby formula?
http://www.nypost.com/seven/07312007/news/regionalnews/city_really_is_a_nanny_regionalnews_chuck_bennett.htm
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 15:48:26
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 12:26:09 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me >
wrote:
>Tim McNamara wrote:
>
>> NYC banned lightbulbs and baby formula?
>
>http://www.nypost.com/seven/07312007/news/regionalnews/city_really_is_a_nanny_regionalnews_chuck_bennett.htm
>
Can you actually read? We know you can't do math, but can you read?
Can you think logically or critically.The government promoting one
thing is not the same as banning an alternative. Baby formula is sold
in thousands of places in New York City.
--
JT
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| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 12:35:00
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Bill Sornson wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
>
>> NYC banned lightbulbs and baby formula?
>
> http://www.nypost.com/seven/07312007/news/regionalnews/city_really_is_a_nanny_regionalnews_chuck_bennett.htm
And before Flogger says that isn't "government":
http://wcbstv.com/local/local_story_212165519.html
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 18:31:54
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Sorni,
There are at least eight places selling goods with trans fats in them
within a half mile of my house in New York City.
What is this trans fat ban you were talking about? Were you just
making it up? Or repeating confused/misleading info from some dopey
angry man you heard on the radio?
Or are trans fats actually banned somewhere else in the US?
--
JT
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| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 22:18:49
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> There are at least eight places selling goods with trans fats in them
> within a half mile of my house in New York City.
>
> What is this trans fat ban you were talking about? Were you just
> making it up? Or repeating confused/misleading info from some dopey
> angry man you heard on the radio?
>
> Or are trans fats actually banned somewhere else in the US?
Chicago City Council is seriously considering it - after their
breakthrough fois gras ban. They apparently think there might be one
person in America who doesn't believe they are a bunch of putzes so it
just may pass...
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 21:02:30
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
A Muzi wrote:
> John Forrest Tomlinson whined:
>> There are at least eight places selling goods with trans fats in them
>> within a half mile of my house in New York City.
>>
>> What is this trans fat ban you were talking about? Were you just
>> making it up? Or repeating confused/misleading info from some dopey
>> angry man you heard on the radio?
>>
>> Or are trans fats actually banned somewhere else in the US?
> Chicago City Council is seriously considering it - after their
> breakthrough fois gras ban. They apparently think there might be one
> person in America who doesn't believe they are a bunch of putzes so it
> just may pass...
Too rich (pun somewhat intended).
I'd have never seen Flogger's inane comment if you hadn't replied, so please
pass this on to him:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16051436/
(BTW, it's the very first Google Hit on "new york city trans fat ban".
LOL )
Bill "I guess 'Progressives' can't use a search engine" S.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 01:14:13
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:02:30 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me >
wrote:
>A Muzi wrote:
>> John Forrest Tomlinson whined:
>>> There are at least eight places selling goods with trans fats in them
>>> within a half mile of my house in New York City.
>>>
>>> What is this trans fat ban you were talking about? Were you just
>>> making it up? Or repeating confused/misleading info from some dopey
>>> angry man you heard on the radio?
>>>
>>> Or are trans fats actually banned somewhere else in the US?
>
>> Chicago City Council is seriously considering it - after their
>> breakthrough fois gras ban. They apparently think there might be one
>> person in America who doesn't believe they are a bunch of putzes so it
>> just may pass...
>
>Too rich (pun somewhat intended).
>
>I'd have never seen Flogger's inane comment if you hadn't replied, so please
>pass this on to him:
>
>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16051436/
>
>(BTW, it's the very first Google Hit on "new york city trans fat ban".
But trans fats are not banned. I can buy stuff with trans fats in two
stores on my block.
It's a ban of trans fats being used in particular circumstances.
--
JT
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| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 15:50:36
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 12:35:00 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me >
wrote:
>Bill Sornson wrote:
>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>
>>> NYC banned lightbulbs and baby formula?
>>
>> http://www.nypost.com/seven/07312007/news/regionalnews/city_really_is_a_nanny_regionalnews_chuck_bennett.htm
>
>
>And before Flogger says that isn't "government":
>http://wcbstv.com/local/local_story_212165519.html
So if the government has a policy not providing, say, soda to kids
*itself * that means you can say that the government has banned
soda????!!!
I don't know if there is a specific rule, but NYC public hospitals
don't provide bicycles either. OMG the NYC government has banned
bike!
You amaze me with your stupidity.
--
JT
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| | | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 18:01:04
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Bill Sornson wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
>> In article <b4drb3h6tvv4g4vqm2cpm1mbufdm56qajr@4ax.com>,
>> RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Poland had the Beer Party after wall fell. They simply advocated all
>>> the things that make for a good beer drinking experience collected
>>> them together into a platform that ended up being pretty normal
>>> European Christian Democrat. It's all connected free speech, right
>>> of the people to petition, free labor market with right to
>>> collective action. All those things that moderate or remedy excess
>>> and oppression.
>>
>> All things that are increasingly curtailed by the New Right in the
>> United States.
>
> Along with smoking, baby formula, transfat, lightbulbs...
>
> Oh, wait.
>
> LOL
Oh yeah, almost forgot anonymous union votes. Dems can't have THAT! (But
they did have the nerve to name their bill some disingenuous, misleading
title -- "Employee Free Choice Act" -- that completely belies its true
intent.)
http://republicanleader.house.gov/blog/?p=40 (figure you'd love the source)
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 09:38:15
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 09:19:20 -0400, RonSonic
<ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
>I was wondering when Sinclair was going to show up. Good example. The Chinese
>would've hanged him (so would the pre-Com Chinese too, so I don't know why I
>keep dumping on the Commies) - here he ran for president.
The conditions he described were still true. If you want to criticize
China for lack of human rights, go ahead, but the existence of the
stuff Sinclair Lewis wrote about undermines your thesis that Chinese
culture or communism are key causes of fraudy/shoddy/dangerous
manufacturing.
--
JT
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| | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 23:49:19
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 09:38:15 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
<usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 09:19:20 -0400, RonSonic
><ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>I was wondering when Sinclair was going to show up. Good example. The Chinese
>>would've hanged him (so would the pre-Com Chinese too, so I don't know why I
>>keep dumping on the Commies) - here he ran for president.
>
>The conditions he described were still true. If you want to criticize
>China for lack of human rights, go ahead, but the existence of the
>stuff Sinclair Lewis wrote about undermines your thesis that Chinese
>culture or communism are key causes of fraudy/shoddy/dangerous
>manufacturing.
Not the cause of the problem, greed's pretty much universal. But the governing
philosophies of China have left it a bit backward on the subject of consumer
rights and ethical business practice.
Ron
|
| | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 09:45:28
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 09:38:15 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
<usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 09:19:20 -0400, RonSonic
><ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>I was wondering when Sinclair was going to show up. Good example. The Chinese
>>would've hanged him (so would the pre-Com Chinese too, so I don't know why I
>>keep dumping on the Commies) - here he ran for president.
>
>The conditions he described were still true. If you want to criticize
>China for lack of human rights, go ahead, but the existence of the
>stuff Sinclair Lewis wrote about undermines your thesis that Chinese
>culture or communism are key causes of fraudy/shoddy/dangerous
>manufacturing.
Excuse me -- I meant Upton Sinclair, not Sinclair Lewis.
--
JT
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| |
Date: 10 Aug 2007 05:41:29
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 9, 11:43 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0...@invailid.com > wrote:
> Colin Campbell wrote:
> > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> >> On Aug 9, 9:03 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >>>> On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:04:49 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> >>>> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
> >>>>>> From the Metheny and Burke e-newsletter today:
> >>>>>> Bicycle recall: Raleigh America and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety
> >>>>>> Commission are recalling 1,200 Chinese-made Raleigh Cadent bikes with
> >>>>>> Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks. The forks can break
> >>>>>> during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall.
> >>>>>> Raleigh
> >>>>>> has received three reports of fork failures, resulting in a
> >>>>>> dislocated
> >>>>>> shoulder, a concussion and a broken jaw....
> >>>>> I expect that we will see a lot more incidents/accidents like these as
> >>>>> cheap CFRP components made with questionable quality control become
> >>>>> more
> >>>>> common.
> >>>> There weren't recalls back in the day before carbon fiber use was
> >>>> common?
> >>> of course. this is a "china" problem, not a "carbon" problem.-
>
> >> Wow, the China bashing is getting a bit much these days. Mattel
> >> recalls toys, but it was the fault of the Chinese maker, not Mattel's
> >> lack of oversight....or so says the media. Similar situation here -
> >> this is Raleigh's problem; in a quest for cheap, they apparently
> >> bought from a shoddy vendor, and those exist everywhere in the world.
>
> > Maybe the China bashing is just about on the right level. We haven't
> > bashed them for good products, only crap they're sending us. Bad food,
> > bad automobile tires, bad carbon fiber forks, lead in the paint on kids'
> > toys, etc.
>
> > Okay, maybe the US companies contracting with the Chinese companies have
> > been naive, thinking they'd get what they were paying for, but I'll bet
> > that is changing -- fast! There are probably a lot of companies
> > rebuilding their quality control organizations to check that their
> > offshored production is up to standards.
>
> The US companies are buying at the OEM level from China solely because
> it is the lowest cost source. Often they are indeed getting what they
> pay for.
Exactly. This is not a "Chinese problem", it's an American company
bottom feeding problem. Low balling vendors supplying iffy product are
hardly unique to China. Remember folks, there's alot of Made-in-USA
crap out there, too.
|
| | |
Date: 10 Aug 2007 10:39:57
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 05:41:29 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
>On Aug 9, 11:43 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
><sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
>> Colin Campbell wrote:
>> > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>> >> On Aug 9, 9:03 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> >>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> >>>> On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:04:49 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
>> >>>> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>> >>>>>> From the Metheny and Burke e-newsletter today:
>> >>>>>> Bicycle recall: Raleigh America and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety
>> >>>>>> Commission are recalling 1,200 Chinese-made Raleigh Cadent bikes with
>> >>>>>> Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks. The forks can break
>> >>>>>> during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall.
>> >>>>>> Raleigh
>> >>>>>> has received three reports of fork failures, resulting in a
>> >>>>>> dislocated
>> >>>>>> shoulder, a concussion and a broken jaw....
>> >>>>> I expect that we will see a lot more incidents/accidents like these as
>> >>>>> cheap CFRP components made with questionable quality control become
>> >>>>> more
>> >>>>> common.
>> >>>> There weren't recalls back in the day before carbon fiber use was
>> >>>> common?
>> >>> of course. this is a "china" problem, not a "carbon" problem.-
>>
>> >> Wow, the China bashing is getting a bit much these days. Mattel
>> >> recalls toys, but it was the fault of the Chinese maker, not Mattel's
>> >> lack of oversight....or so says the media. Similar situation here -
>> >> this is Raleigh's problem; in a quest for cheap, they apparently
>> >> bought from a shoddy vendor, and those exist everywhere in the world.
>>
>> > Maybe the China bashing is just about on the right level. We haven't
>> > bashed them for good products, only crap they're sending us. Bad food,
>> > bad automobile tires, bad carbon fiber forks, lead in the paint on kids'
>> > toys, etc.
>>
>> > Okay, maybe the US companies contracting with the Chinese companies have
>> > been naive, thinking they'd get what they were paying for, but I'll bet
>> > that is changing -- fast! There are probably a lot of companies
>> > rebuilding their quality control organizations to check that their
>> > offshored production is up to standards.
>>
>> The US companies are buying at the OEM level from China solely because
>> it is the lowest cost source. Often they are indeed getting what they
>> pay for.
>
>Exactly. This is not a "Chinese problem", it's an American company
>bottom feeding problem. Low balling vendors supplying iffy product are
>hardly unique to China. Remember folks, there's alot of Made-in-USA
>crap out there, too.
There is crap and there is deliberately mislabeled and fraudulently presented
crap. There is all the difference in the world between the two. If you buy a bag
of grain meal and it's crap there will be debris and insect and rodent and all
the usual. That is plain normal crap and that's what goes in animal feed. But
when the bag is sold as crap meal and it actually contains a deliberately added
contaminant that causes favorable protein measurements and is not normally
tested for because there is no reason for this particular contaminant to occur
in grain then you are talking about something very, very different.
Haiti, Pakistan, Malaysia will all sell you crap, but it takes decades of Commie
indoctrination and a centuries old contempt for the common man to do the other
thing.
Ron
|
| | | |
Date: 10 Aug 2007 19:06:10
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:39:57 -0400, RonSonic
<ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
>There is crap and there is deliberately mislabeled and fraudulently presented
>crap. There is all the difference in the world between the two. If you buy a bag
>of grain meal and it's crap there will be debris and insect and rodent and all
>the usual. That is plain normal crap and that's what goes in animal feed. But
>when the bag is sold as crap meal and it actually contains a deliberately added
>contaminant that causes favorable protein measurements and is not normally
>tested for because there is no reason for this particular contaminant to occur
>in grain then you are talking about something very, very different.
Well said.
>Haiti, Pakistan, Malaysia will all sell you crap, but it takes decades of Commie
>indoctrination and a centuries old contempt for the common man to do the other
>thing.
You're really speculating wildly here with the "contempt for the
common man" as the cause of some instances of fraud.
--
JT
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| | | | |
Date: 10 Aug 2007 18:21:07
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:39:57 -0400, RonSonic
> <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> There is crap and there is deliberately mislabeled and fraudulently presented
>> crap. There is all the difference in the world between the two. If you buy a bag
>> of grain meal and it's crap there will be debris and insect and rodent and all
>> the usual. That is plain normal crap and that's what goes in animal feed. But
>> when the bag is sold as crap meal and it actually contains a deliberately added
>> contaminant that causes favorable protein measurements and is not normally
>> tested for because there is no reason for this particular contaminant to occur
>> in grain then you are talking about something very, very different.
>
> Well said.
>
>> Haiti, Pakistan, Malaysia will all sell you crap, but it takes decades of Commie
>> indoctrination and a centuries old contempt for the common man to do the other
>> thing.
>
> You're really speculating wildly here with the "contempt for the
> common man" as the cause of some instances of fraud.
Maybe contempt for the foreigner might be more accurate.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 01:40:16
From: Dennis Ferguson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On 2007-08-10, Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman <sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote:
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:39:57 -0400, RonSonic
>> <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>> Haiti, Pakistan, Malaysia will all sell you crap, but it takes decades of Commie
>>> indoctrination and a centuries old contempt for the common man to do the other
>>> thing.
>>
>> You're really speculating wildly here with the "contempt for the
>> common man" as the cause of some instances of fraud.
>
> Maybe contempt for the foreigner might be more accurate.
So your theory is that they only sell the crap to foreigners, and
the stuff they sell in their domestic market is great?
Your theory is just wrong. There is a Chinese language TV show
that shows nothing but the current horror products of the week (I
think it is even on one of the government channels). The English
newspaper in Hong Kong has frequent articles on the awful stuff
being sold on the mainland. In fact Hong Kong businesses do pretty
well selling to visiting mainland shoppers, despite relatively
high prices, based solely on the fact that if you buy something
at a reputable Hong Kong shop you usually get what you think you
are paying for, a unique occurance in China.
The foreigners used to get all the good stuff. For what it is
worth, my theory is that the current spate of bad stuff appearing in
the US is more likely due to Chinese business people who never had
to learn about currency hedging, due to the pegged currency exchange
rate that stayed stable for a decade or more, who have entered into
contracts for US dollar amounts which, due to the shrinking dollar
policy China's been forced into, no longer pay the renminbi costs.
To get out from under this they cut corners (which they learned to
do very well in their domestic market).
China is the laissez-faire capitalist paradise Milton Friedman
dreamed of. According to him the market will fix all this.
Dennis Ferguson
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 00:43:26
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Dennis Ferguson wrote:
> On 2007-08-10, Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote:
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:39:57 -0400, RonSonic
>>> <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> Haiti, Pakistan, Malaysia will all sell you crap, but it takes decades of Commie
>>>> indoctrination and a centuries old contempt for the common man to do the other
>>>> thing.
>>> You're really speculating wildly here with the "contempt for the
>>> common man" as the cause of some instances of fraud.
>> Maybe contempt for the foreigner might be more accurate.
>
> So your theory is that they only sell the crap to foreigners, and
> the stuff they sell in their domestic market is great?
No.
> Your theory is just wrong.
Nope. Your presumption of my theory is just wrong.
> There is a Chinese language TV show
> that shows nothing but the current horror products of the week (I
> think it is even on one of the government channels). The English
> newspaper in Hong Kong has frequent articles on the awful stuff
> being sold on the mainland. In fact Hong Kong businesses do pretty
> well selling to visiting mainland shoppers, despite relatively
> high prices, based solely on the fact that if you buy something
> at a reputable Hong Kong shop you usually get what you think you
> are paying for, a unique occurance in China.
>
> The foreigners used to get all the good stuff. For what it is
> worth, my theory is that the current spate of bad stuff appearing in
> the US is more likely due to Chinese business people who never had
> to learn about currency hedging, due to the pegged currency exchange
> rate that stayed stable for a decade or more, who have entered into
> contracts for US dollar amounts which, due to the shrinking dollar
> policy China's been forced into, no longer pay the renminbi costs.
> To get out from under this they cut corners (which they learned to
> do very well in their domestic market).
>
> China is the laissez-faire capitalist paradise Milton Friedman
> dreamed of. According to him the market will fix all this.
The Chinese are "water mining" while failing to control their
population. Environmental collapse will bring down the country within a
few decades, and there is nothing the "free market" can do about it.
Unless the huge surplus of young men [1] destabilizes the country first.
[1] Due to pre-natal gender screening and the incomprehensible cultural
preference for sons.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 04:58:32
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 00:43:26 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote:
[about China]
>Unless the huge surplus of young men [1] destabilizes the country first.
>
>[1] Due to pre-natal gender screening and the incomprehensible cultural
>preference for sons.
Here's where you are demonstrating a lot of ignorance about China.
I'm not saying pre-natal gender screening is right, but it's not
"incomprehensible" at all. It's based on a specific and not
hard-to-understand set of economic and social norms. Most basically
China lacks a social welfare system to take care of the aged. Women
who marry tend to live near their husbands families and can't take
care of the parents as well as men do. So if a family is limited to
one child, it's in their economic interest to have a son -- that is
insurance for their own old age.
In places where families are not limited to one child that also lack
good social security for the elderly we see similar things - but in
those cases the families keep having kids till they have a son.
And in places where poverty is so extreme that survival of young
children is low, we see families giving preference in terms of food,
medical care, education, to sons for the same reason.
This is not "incomprensible" -- it's well understood.
--
JT
****************************
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| | | | | | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 16:47:59
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article <38uqb3pvsiifh11caltreq0qco1nde2uc7@4ax.com >,
John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 00:43:26 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote: [about China]
>
> >Unless the huge surplus of young men [1] destabilizes the country
> >first.
> >
> >[1] Due to pre-natal gender screening and the incomprehensible
> >cultural preference for sons.
>
> Here's where you are demonstrating a lot of ignorance about China.
> I'm not saying pre-natal gender screening is right, but it's not
> "incomprehensible" at all. It's based on a specific and not
> hard-to-understand set of economic and social norms. Most basically
> China lacks a social welfare system to take care of the aged. Women
> who marry tend to live near their husbands families and can't take
> care of the parents as well as men do. So if a family is limited to
> one child, it's in their economic interest to have a son -- that is
> insurance for their own old age.
>
> In places where families are not limited to one child that also lack
> good social security for the elderly we see similar things - but in
> those cases the families keep having kids till they have a son.
>
> And in places where poverty is so extreme that survival of young
> children is low, we see families giving preference in terms of food,
> medical care, education, to sons for the same reason.
>
> This is not "incomprensible" -- it's well understood.
It's also somewhat (but not completely) alien to Western thinking. I
remember reading about peasant economics about 25 years ago which
discussed the reasons for large families, the economic impact of having
sons versus daughters, etc. It was quite interesting but I am afraid I
do not remember it that well. The world view and economic decision
making for people living at the subsistence level (about 3 billion of
the world's population) is very different from that of the EuroAmerican
middle class.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 08:32:05
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 00:43:26 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote:
> [about China]
>
>> Unless the huge surplus of young men [1] destabilizes the country first.
>>
>> [1] Due to pre-natal gender screening and the incomprehensible cultural
>> preference for sons.
>
> Here's where you are demonstrating a lot of ignorance about China.
> I'm not saying pre-natal gender screening is right, but it's not
> "incomprehensible" at all. It's based on a specific and not
> hard-to-understand set of economic and social norms. Most basically
> China lacks a social welfare system to take care of the aged. Women
> who marry tend to live near their husbands families and can't take
> care of the parents as well as men do. So if a family is limited to
> one child, it's in their economic interest to have a son -- that is
> insurance for their own old age.
>
> In places where families are not limited to one child that also lack
> good social security for the elderly we see similar things - but in
> those cases the families keep having kids till they have a son.
>
> And in places where poverty is so extreme that survival of young
> children is low, we see families giving preference in terms of food,
> medical care, education, to sons for the same reason.
>
> This is not "incomprensible" -- it's well understood.
Boys of practically any age are monsters - it is incomprehensible that a
sane person would want to spend anytime around boys. Of course, the
upper classes have solved this problem by sending them off to boarding
schools.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | |
Date: 10 Aug 2007 20:40:35
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 18:21:07 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote:
>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:39:57 -0400, RonSonic
>> <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>> There is crap and there is deliberately mislabeled and fraudulently presented
>>> crap. There is all the difference in the world between the two. If you buy a bag
>>> of grain meal and it's crap there will be debris and insect and rodent and all
>>> the usual. That is plain normal crap and that's what goes in animal feed. But
>>> when the bag is sold as crap meal and it actually contains a deliberately added
>>> contaminant that causes favorable protein measurements and is not normally
>>> tested for because there is no reason for this particular contaminant to occur
>>> in grain then you are talking about something very, very different.
>>
>> Well said.
>>
>>> Haiti, Pakistan, Malaysia will all sell you crap, but it takes decades of Commie
>>> indoctrination and a centuries old contempt for the common man to do the other
>>> thing.
>>
>> You're really speculating wildly here with the "contempt for the
>> common man" as the cause of some instances of fraud.
>
>Maybe contempt for the foreigner might be more accurate.
You think China has that more than other places?
--
JT
****************************
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| | | | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 00:35:05
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 18:21:07 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote:
>
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:39:57 -0400, RonSonic
>>> <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> There is crap and there is deliberately mislabeled and fraudulently presented
>>>> crap. There is all the difference in the world between the two. If you buy a bag
>>>> of grain meal and it's crap there will be debris and insect and rodent and all
>>>> the usual. That is plain normal crap and that's what goes in animal feed. But
>>>> when the bag is sold as crap meal and it actually contains a deliberately added
>>>> contaminant that causes favorable protein measurements and is not normally
>>>> tested for because there is no reason for this particular contaminant to occur
>>>> in grain then you are talking about something very, very different.
>>> Well said.
>>>
>>>> Haiti, Pakistan, Malaysia will all sell you crap, but it takes decades of Commie
>>>> indoctrination and a centuries old contempt for the common man to do the other
>>>> thing.
>>> You're really speculating wildly here with the "contempt for the
>>> common man" as the cause of some instances of fraud.
>> Maybe contempt for the foreigner might be more accurate.
>
> You think China has that more than other places?
Not necessarily more imagined superiority and/or contempt than other
countries, but a willingness to express than contempt by "putting one
over" on their customers.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 04:52:53
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 00:35:05 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote:
>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 18:21:07 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
>> <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:39:57 -0400, RonSonic
>>>> <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There is crap and there is deliberately mislabeled and fraudulently presented
>>>>> crap. There is all the difference in the world between the two. If you buy a bag
>>>>> of grain meal and it's crap there will be debris and insect and rodent and all
>>>>> the usual. That is plain normal crap and that's what goes in animal feed. But
>>>>> when the bag is sold as crap meal and it actually contains a deliberately added
>>>>> contaminant that causes favorable protein measurements and is not normally
>>>>> tested for because there is no reason for this particular contaminant to occur
>>>>> in grain then you are talking about something very, very different.
>>>> Well said.
>>>>
>>>>> Haiti, Pakistan, Malaysia will all sell you crap, but it takes decades of Commie
>>>>> indoctrination and a centuries old contempt for the common man to do the other
>>>>> thing.
>>>> You're really speculating wildly here with the "contempt for the
>>>> common man" as the cause of some instances of fraud.
>>> Maybe contempt for the foreigner might be more accurate.
>>
>> You think China has that more than other places?
>
>Not necessarily more imagined superiority and/or contempt than other
>countries, but a willingness to express than contempt by "putting one
>over" on their customers.
What evidence do you have for this? Or is this just anecdote based on
the recent news of product problems?
--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 08:25:34
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 00:35:05 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote:
>
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 18:21:07 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
>>> <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:39:57 -0400, RonSonic
>>>>> <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There is crap and there is deliberately mislabeled and fraudulently presented
>>>>>> crap. There is all the difference in the world between the two. If you buy a bag
>>>>>> of grain meal and it's crap there will be debris and insect and rodent and all
>>>>>> the usual. That is plain normal crap and that's what goes in animal feed. But
>>>>>> when the bag is sold as crap meal and it actually contains a deliberately added
>>>>>> contaminant that causes favorable protein measurements and is not normally
>>>>>> tested for because there is no reason for this particular contaminant to occur
>>>>>> in grain then you are talking about something very, very different.
>>>>> Well said.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Haiti, Pakistan, Malaysia will all sell you crap, but it takes decades of Commie
>>>>>> indoctrination and a centuries old contempt for the common man to do the other
>>>>>> thing.
>>>>> You're really speculating wildly here with the "contempt for the
>>>>> common man" as the cause of some instances of fraud.
>>>> Maybe contempt for the foreigner might be more accurate.
>>> You think China has that more than other places?
>> Not necessarily more imagined superiority and/or contempt than other
>> countries, but a willingness to express than contempt by "putting one
>> over" on their customers.
>
> What evidence do you have for this? Or is this just anecdote based on
> the recent news of product problems?
No, it is a cultural attitude.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | |
Date: 10 Aug 2007 11:58:22
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article <eqtob31igcg0m1o8lcgvm4hh3jmi67mnf6@4ax.com >,
RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 05:41:29 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
> <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> >On Aug 9, 11:43 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> ><sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
> >> Colin Campbell wrote:
> >> > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> >> >> On Aug 9, 9:03 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >> >>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >> >>>> On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:04:49 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\"
> >> >>>> Sherman" <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
> >> >>>>>> From the Metheny and Burke e-newsletter today: Bicycle
> >> >>>>>> recall: Raleigh America and the U.S. Consumer Product
> >> >>>>>> Safety Commission are recalling 1,200 Chinese-made Raleigh
> >> >>>>>> Cadent bikes with Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks.
> >> >>>>>> The forks can break during normal use, causing the rider to
> >> >>>>>> lose control and fall. Raleigh has received three reports
> >> >>>>>> of fork failures, resulting in a dislocated shoulder, a
> >> >>>>>> concussion and a broken jaw....
> >> >>>>> I expect that we will see a lot more incidents/accidents
> >> >>>>> like these as cheap CFRP components made with questionable
> >> >>>>> quality control become more common.
> >> >>>> There weren't recalls back in the day before carbon fiber use
> >> >>>> was common?
> >> >>> of course. this is a "china" problem, not a "carbon"
> >> >>> problem.-
> >>
> >> >> Wow, the China bashing is getting a bit much these days. Mattel
> >> >> recalls toys, but it was the fault of the Chinese maker, not
> >> >> Mattel's lack of oversight....or so says the media. Similar
> >> >> situation here - this is Raleigh's problem; in a quest for
> >> >> cheap, they apparently bought from a shoddy vendor, and those
> >> >> exist everywhere in the world.
> >>
> >> > Maybe the China bashing is just about on the right level. We
> >> > haven't bashed them for good products, only crap they're sending
> >> > us. Bad food, bad automobile tires, bad carbon fiber forks,
> >> > lead in the paint on kids' toys, etc.
> >>
> >> > Okay, maybe the US companies contracting with the Chinese
> >> > companies have been naive, thinking they'd get what they were
> >> > paying for, but I'll bet that is changing -- fast! There are
> >> > probably a lot of companies rebuilding their quality control
> >> > organizations to check that their offshored production is up to
> >> > standards.
> >>
> >> The US companies are buying at the OEM level from China solely
> >> because it is the lowest cost source. Often they are indeed
> >> getting what they pay for.
> >
> >Exactly. This is not a "Chinese problem", it's an American company
> >bottom feeding problem. Low balling vendors supplying iffy product
> >are hardly unique to China. Remember folks, there's alot of
> >Made-in-USA crap out there, too.
>
> There is crap and there is deliberately mislabeled and fraudulently
> presented crap. There is all the difference in the world between the
> two. If you buy a bag of grain meal and it's crap there will be
> debris and insect and rodent and all the usual. That is plain normal
> crap and that's what goes in animal feed. But when the bag is sold as
> crap meal and it actually contains a deliberately added contaminant
> that causes favorable protein measurements and is not normally tested
> for because there is no reason for this particular contaminant to
> occur in grain then you are talking about something very, very
> different.
>
> Haiti, Pakistan, Malaysia will all sell you crap, but it takes
> decades of Commie indoctrination and a centuries old contempt for the
> common man to do the other thing.
Sorry, Ron, but the history of capitalism is rife with exactly the same
set of problems. Just look into "patent medicines" to see plenty of
examples. It's a subset of human nature, not "Commie indoctrination."
The difference is that now it is easy for bad people to produce and
market these things in huge quantities.
|
| | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 16:25:21
From: Ed Pirrero
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 13, 7:37 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0...@invailid.com > wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <1186994126.066804.46...@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> > Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Jay Beattie wrote:
> >>> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K
> >>> a year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that to a family
> >>> practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education and
> >>> student loans making $140K.
> >> So what makes a physician intrinsically more valuable than a
> >> longshoreman who has been working longer in his career? Tradition?
> >> Conventional wisdom? Bad handwriting?
>
> > LOL. If you want to know who's important in the world, imagine the
> > consequences of life without them. Imagine life without professional
> > athletes. Now imagine live without garbage haulers. Generally speaking
> > income and actual importance of one's job tend to be inversely
> > correlated. If you want to make a lot of money, get a job that is
> > intrinsically useless. ;-)...
>
> Funny that the right talks "family values" so much, but they think being
> a parent is nearly worthless (hence the abolishment of AFDC) [1].
>
> [1] Yes, I know this was under Bill Clinton, which simply goes to prove
> that his administration was right-wing except of the issues of sexual
> morality, where it was mainstream liberal.
Have you forgotten the sexual peccedilloes of some of the GOP folks in
D.C.? And the famousness of Gingrich and Guiliani for their serial
marriages?
Please. The "family values" thing is pure canard and propaganda.
Only an idiot would fall for that rhetoric.
E.P.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 21:43:55
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Ed Pirrero wrote:
> On Aug 13, 7:37 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>> In article <1186994126.066804.46...@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
>>> Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Jay Beattie wrote:
>>>>> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K
>>>>> a year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that to a family
>>>>> practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education and
>>>>> student loans making $140K.
>>>> So what makes a physician intrinsically more valuable than a
>>>> longshoreman who has been working longer in his career? Tradition?
>>>> Conventional wisdom? Bad handwriting?
>>> LOL. If you want to know who's important in the world, imagine the
>>> consequences of life without them. Imagine life without professional
>>> athletes. Now imagine live without garbage haulers. Generally speaking
>>> income and actual importance of one's job tend to be inversely
>>> correlated. If you want to make a lot of money, get a job that is
>>> intrinsically useless. ;-)...
>> Funny that the right talks "family values" so much, but they think being
>> a parent is nearly worthless (hence the abolishment of AFDC) [1].
>>
>> [1] Yes, I know this was under Bill Clinton, which simply goes to prove
>> that his administration was right-wing except of the issues of sexual
>> morality, where it was mainstream liberal.
>
> Have you forgotten the sexual peccedilloes of some of the GOP folks in
> D.C.? And the famousness of Gingrich and Guiliani for their serial
> marriages?
>
> Please. The "family values" thing is pure canard and propaganda.
> Only an idiot would fall for that rhetoric.
That means that close to half the people who turn up at the voting booth
are idiots according to Ed Pirrero.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 03:07:41
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 13, 7:17 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net > wrote:
>
> There aren't any unions for doctors or lawyers, AFAIK. I vaguely recall
> that it may actually be illegal for doctors to unionize. The American
> Medical Association fills some of the role of a union but does not do
> collective bargaining.
There are doctors that are unionized. This has presumably
increased with the rise of HMOs and hospital comglomerates,
since there are more centralized employers of doctors (and more
healthcare executives dedicated to reducing doctors' job
satisfaction to a level traditionally associated with hourly
employees.
I'm not taking a pot shot at all HMO/hospital execs, but there are
some that really seem egregious.) See for ex,
http://www.aafp.org/fpm/990100fm/21.html
Legal Aid lawyers in New York are unionized. Again this only
happens when there's a large central employer, which is even
rarer for lawyers than doctors. Also, it is often easier to
organize at a governmental or quasi-governmental entity.
Another example of white-collar unions is that professors
and/or graduate teaching assistants at some universities
are organized (again, more so at state universities).
In general, the US law is that employees in non-supervisory
roles may organize. Thus, if an institution's professors or
doctors are trying to unionize, the institution's administration
will argue that they play a large role in the management and
direction of the institution and should be declared supervisors
(like middle-managers). This is generally the only time that
an institution's administration will argue that its employees
are vital deciders of policy, but hey, it's the thought that counts.
Ben
|
| | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 08:35:26
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Jay Beattie wrote:
>
> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K a
> year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that to a family
> practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education and student
> loans making $140K.
So what makes a physician intrinsically more valuable than a
longshoreman who has been working longer in his career? Tradition?
Conventional wisdom? Bad handwriting?
Tradesmen usually take as long if not longer to master their trades
than professionals do. Professionals often may not be willing to
acknowledge that, but it's true. I don't know how much expertise a
longshoreman needs, but I know that a machinist or an electronics
technician can have honed his craft for longer than the mechanical
engineer or electrical engineer who gives him blueprints, but still
make less than half the salary.
When the longshoremen were striking on the West Coast, I was living in
Seattle. I heard the indignant comment that "some of these guys are
making $100k a year!", like a West Coast living wage is something no
mere laborer deserves. If there had been anyone from the ILWU making
$300k, I'm sure the major dailies would have been all over it. But if
there was such a guy, why not? If the odd doctor or attorney can make
over $1M per year, why shouldn't a tradesman at the top of his game
make a quarter of that?
Remember that engineers, lawyers, doctors, and accountants (among
others) have jealous professional unions looking out for their
interests. Without those unions, they'd probably be faced with
starvation wages and job insecurity just like machinists, auto
assembly workers, and truck drivers and stevedores in the absence of
their own unions.
> >From the standpoint of economic efficiency, unions are bad.
Efficiency at what, making profit? For whom? That is, if union
members don't benefit, who does? The consumer? That's a laugh!
I worked for a spell in a "proudly non-union" factory (Coors Technical
Ceramics), and I could have made as much money per hour-- though I
could not have logged as many hours-- in a retail job befitting a
teenager on summer vacation. I didn't stay long, but during my stay
there I faced compulsory 12-hour shifts and dangerous working
conditions. The more the production teams missed their quotas, the
longer their schedules grew-- until they were committed to 12 hours,
seven days a week. There were several workers there who were missing
fingers. Nobody was allowed to take their state-mandated breaks. It
was all the illustration I ever needed of what "proudly non-union"
really means.
Remember also that union workers spend almost all the money they make
on things that propel the real economy. Give the lion's share to a
super-rich bastard, and he'll just wind up blowing the loot on
collateralized debt obligations and other such nonsense that destroys
far more actual wealth than it creates.
Chalo
|
| | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 05:43:23
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Chalo Colina wrote:
> ...
> Remember that engineers, lawyers, doctors, and accountants (among
> others) have jealous professional unions looking out for their
> interests. Without those unions, they'd probably be faced with
> starvation wages and job insecurity just like machinists, auto
> assembly workers, and truck drivers and stevedores in the absence of
> their own unions.
Not all engineers make that type of money. In my field, a new graduate
in a major urban area would be lucky to make $40K/year, and that is for
2500-3000 hours of work. This is due to design outsourcing and treating
the work as a commodity, to be chosen by lowest price. With a similar
"free market" approach, we could bring the cost of other professional
services within reason.
>> >From the standpoint of economic efficiency, unions are bad.
>
> Efficiency at what, making profit? For whom? That is, if union
> members don't benefit, who does? The consumer? That's a laugh!
>
> I worked for a spell in a "proudly non-union" factory (Coors Technical
> Ceramics), and I could have made as much money per hour-- though I
> could not have logged as many hours-- in a retail job befitting a
> teenager on summer vacation. I didn't stay long, but during my stay
> there I faced compulsory 12-hour shifts and dangerous working
> conditions. The more the production teams missed their quotas, the
> longer their schedules grew-- until they were committed to 12 hours,
> seven days a week. There were several workers there who were missing
> fingers. Nobody was allowed to take their state-mandated breaks. It
> was all the illustration I ever needed of what "proudly non-union"
> really means.
Sounds a lot like the factories where I have worked.
> Remember also that union workers spend almost all the money they make
> on things that propel the real economy. Give the lion's share to a
> super-rich bastard, and he'll just wind up blowing the loot on
> collateralized debt obligations and other such nonsense that destroys
> far more actual wealth than it creates.
You must remember that the country was founded on protecting the
privileged status of white property owners.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 09:17:16
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article <1186994126.066804.46570@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com >,
Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com > wrote:
> Jay Beattie wrote:
> >
> > There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K
> > a year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that to a family
> > practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education and
> > student loans making $140K.
>
> So what makes a physician intrinsically more valuable than a
> longshoreman who has been working longer in his career? Tradition?
> Conventional wisdom? Bad handwriting?
LOL. If you want to know who's important in the world, imagine the
consequences of life without them. Imagine life without professional
athletes. Now imagine live without garbage haulers. Generally speaking
income and actual importance of one's job tend to be inversely
correlated. If you want to make a lot of money, get a job that is
intrinsically useless. ;-)
<snip >
> Remember that engineers, lawyers, doctors, and accountants (among
> others) have jealous professional unions looking out for their
> interests. Without those unions, they'd probably be faced with
> starvation wages and job insecurity just like machinists, auto
> assembly workers, and truck drivers and stevedores in the absence of
> their own unions.
There aren't any unions for doctors or lawyers, AFAIK. I vaguely recall
that it may actually be illegal for doctors to unionize. The American
Medical Association fills some of the role of a union but does not do
collective bargaining.
> > >From the standpoint of economic efficiency, unions are bad.
>
> Efficiency at what, making profit? For whom? That is, if union
> members don't benefit, who does? The consumer? That's a laugh!
>
> I worked for a spell in a "proudly non-union" factory (Coors
> Technical Ceramics), and I could have made as much money per hour--
> though I could not have logged as many hours-- in a retail job
> befitting a teenager on summer vacation. I didn't stay long, but
> during my stay there I faced compulsory 12-hour shifts and dangerous
> working conditions. The more the production teams missed their
> quotas, the longer their schedules grew-- until they were committed
> to 12 hours, seven days a week. There were several workers there who
> were missing fingers. Nobody was allowed to take their
> state-mandated breaks. It was all the illustration I ever needed of
> what "proudly non-union" really means.
>
> Remember also that union workers spend almost all the money they make
> on things that propel the real economy. Give the lion's share to a
> super-rich bastard, and he'll just wind up blowing the loot on
> collateralized debt obligations and other such nonsense that destroys
> far more actual wealth than it creates.
Right on, brother!
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 21:37:25
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <1186994126.066804.46570@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Jay Beattie wrote:
>>> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K
>>> a year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that to a family
>>> practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education and
>>> student loans making $140K.
>> So what makes a physician intrinsically more valuable than a
>> longshoreman who has been working longer in his career? Tradition?
>> Conventional wisdom? Bad handwriting?
>
> LOL. If you want to know who's important in the world, imagine the
> consequences of life without them. Imagine life without professional
> athletes. Now imagine live without garbage haulers. Generally speaking
> income and actual importance of one's job tend to be inversely
> correlated. If you want to make a lot of money, get a job that is
> intrinsically useless. ;-)...
Funny that the right talks "family values" so much, but they think being
a parent is nearly worthless (hence the abolishment of AFDC) [1].
[1] Yes, I know this was under Bill Clinton, which simply goes to prove
that his administration was right-wing except of the issues of sexual
morality, where it was mainstream liberal.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 15:50:50
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article
<timmcn-EFB937.09171613082007@news.iphouse.com >,
Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote:
> There aren't any unions for doctors or lawyers, AFAIK. I vaguely recall
> that it may actually be illegal for doctors to unionize. The American
> Medical Association fills some of the role of a union but does not do
> collective bargaining.
They set the rates and buy congress-critters.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 21:38:17
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <timmcn-EFB937.09171613082007@news.iphouse.com>,
> Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
>> There aren't any unions for doctors or lawyers, AFAIK. I vaguely recall
>> that it may actually be illegal for doctors to unionize. The American
>> Medical Association fills some of the role of a union but does not do
>> collective bargaining.
>
> They set the rates and buy congress-critters.
The AMA also disrupts the free market by artificially limiting the
supply of physicians.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 18:16:08
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
>> Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>>> There aren't any unions for doctors or lawyers, AFAIK. I vaguely
>>> recall that it may actually be illegal for doctors to unionize. The
>>> American Medical Association fills some of the role of a union but
>>> does not do collective bargaining.
> Michael Press wrote:
>> They set the rates and buy congress-critters.
Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> The AMA also disrupts the free market by artificially limiting the
> supply of physicians.
I'm with Tom Sherman on this.
(although I did pause to ponder for a minute)
There is not a spectrum of service providers as there once was.
Political discussion centering on 'insurance' misses the big picture. In
every other kind of service you have a broad choice of who/where to go -
not so in medical now. And the huge administrative waste/overhead makes
prices climb at a steep slope compared to physician recompense which has
barely moved.
I used to have wens periodically removed by a local dermatologist. Ten
minutes, $40 or $50. The last time I visited he said "I've joined a
medical group. We'll send you a bill".
Ten minutes of "minor office surgery $650". Never went back.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 15 Aug 2007 11:27:35
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article <13c4dsloan5ua70@corp.supernews.com >,
A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> >> Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> >>> There aren't any unions for doctors or lawyers, AFAIK. I vaguely
> >>> recall that it may actually be illegal for doctors to unionize. The
> >>> American Medical Association fills some of the role of a union but
> >>> does not do collective bargaining.
>
> > Michael Press wrote:
> >> They set the rates and buy congress-critters.
>
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> > The AMA also disrupts the free market by artificially limiting the
> > supply of physicians.
>
> I'm with Tom Sherman on this.
> (although I did pause to ponder for a minute)
>
> There is not a spectrum of service providers as there once was.
> Political discussion centering on 'insurance' misses the big picture. In
> every other kind of service you have a broad choice of who/where to go -
> not so in medical now. And the huge administrative waste/overhead makes
> prices climb at a steep slope compared to physician recompense which has
> barely moved.
>
> I used to have wens periodically removed by a local dermatologist. Ten
> minutes, $40 or $50. The last time I visited he said "I've joined a
> medical group. We'll send you a bill".
>
> Ten minutes of "minor office surgery $650". Never went back.
Wait a minute. Were you disagreeing with me? Sounds
like you saw an instance of price-fixing.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 21:41:56
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Andrew Muzi wrote:
> ...
> I'm with Tom Sherman on this.
> (although I did pause to ponder for a minute)...
Hey, we agree that commuter bikes should have fenders (you told me this
in person). :)
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 21:11:46
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article <rubrum-24C26F.15505013082007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net >,
Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote:
> In article <timmcn-EFB937.09171613082007@news.iphouse.com>,
> Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > There aren't any unions for doctors or lawyers, AFAIK. I vaguely
> > recall that it may actually be illegal for doctors to unionize.
> > The American Medical Association fills some of the role of a union
> > but does not do collective bargaining.
>
> They set the rates and buy congress-critters.
They don't actually set the rates, if by that you mean the cost of
health care services. There are two countervailing forces: the setting
of a "cash price" for services which is done by beancounters, and the
setting of the maximum price insurance companies will pay which is set
by other beancounters. Doctors have the choice of accepting the
reimbursement rate as set by the insurance company or declining to be a
provider. If you don't have health care, you pay the full cash rate
which can be twice as high as what insurance companies pay (or you
default on the bill and everybody else picks up the tab sooner or
later).
The AMA certainly does spend a lot of money lobbying Congress(es) at the
federal and state level. The AMA acts like a guild rather than a union.
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 05:37:16
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 12, 5:54 pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
>
> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K a
> year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that to a family
> practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education and student
> loans making $140K. Some unions have managed to make a few people
> very wealthy, and very powerful unions have shown that they can be
> just as ruthless as the worst businesses. It is not a clear cut issue.
>
> From the standpoint of economic efficiency, unions are bad. From a
> social welfare standpoint, unions are good. So, the real question is
> where do we strike the line between economic efficiency and social
> welfare. If you don't get it just right, industries collapses and
> everybody loses, ala Detroit. Or, you end up with sweatshops. That is
> not as likely nowadays with federal and state minimum wage laws, Fair
> Labor Standards Act -- but it is still possible.
>
> As for unions creating the middle class, that may have been true in
> certain regions of the country like the Great Lakes, but it seems to
> me that it created a precarious middle class that was received high
> wages for performaing relatively unskilled work. When the work went
> away, so did the middle class -- and so did any hope of making similar
> wages because the workers lacked the skill to compete in the open
> market. I don't advocate a strict market approach to wages or
> employment, but there has to be a corelation between wages and skill
> level, otherwise there is no incentive to improve and no chance for
> real advancement in an increasingly skilled work force. -- Jay
> Beattie.
It's not difficult to find limited applications in
which unions or their work rules are calcified and
make things a pain in the ass. Even more so than
dockworkers, I might nominate arenas with unionized
stagehands. On the other hand, these tend to occur
in pretty isolated fields, because in large fields
uncompetitive practices make it hard to survive.
Although the first image of a union worker that comes
to mind is usually Joe Sixpack, like a dockworker or
a factory worker, many of the union jobs in today's
US economy are fairly low wage, pink-collar, service
industry jobs. Like supermarkets, hotels, cleaning
services. I think there's a pretty good parallel
between these jobs and factory jobs in 1900-1970 or so.
Yes they are low wage and low skill, but getting
these workers stable paychecks and health benefits
enables them to move into the the upper working class,
so to speak, and crucially enables their kids to get
educations and move up if they so desire.
IMO the same dynamic was at work in the factory jobs
of which you speak. I recall reading a memoir by a
guy who said that his dad got him a summer job in the
steel mill, as all of his friends' dads did. The point
was not to break them in, but to show them what a hard,
rough, dirty job it was working there, so the kids
would all be motivated to bust their butts in college
to stay out of the mill.
I can't say that everybody I grew up with (I grew up in
Pittsburgh) was similarly motivated, and there are still
some number of people who go into the mills or the mines -
but in today's world we don't hear about them until
there's a mine collapse. Heavy industry is still here,
but it's unfashionable to talk about.
In fact, union wages probably were only ever a small part of
the cause of the shrinking of US heavy industry. In ~1980
when the steel mills were closing in Pittsburgh, people
complained about how steelworkers had gotten spoiled by
making $15/hour. That was a fair amount of money then,
but it's still not enough to explain the demise of an
industry. That had more to do with failure to modernize
(it is a capital intensive industry) and long-term
globalization trends.
For the auto industry,
one thing breaking GM's back now is not how much it pays
its current employees, but its pension and health benefit
obligations to its many long-lived retirees. This is a
sad thing and you can be sure that factories in Taiwan
and China don't have this problem. On the other hand,
those benefits were part of the implied social contracts
that made the US wealthy and healthy in the 20th century,
and on balance it's a positive that all those retirees
are around, rather than leaving the factory at 60 and
dropping dead at 62, how it used to be.
Ben
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Date: 12 Aug 2007 21:36:35
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 12, 7:00 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0...@invailid.com > wrote:
> Jay Beattie wrote:
> > On Aug 12, 3:22 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Tom Sherman wrote:
>
> >>> Bill Sornson wrote:
> >>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
> >>>>> RonSonic wrote:
> >>>>>> Unions are a very nice part of the free market.
> >>>>> Yup. They are what created most of the American middle class.
> >>>> And then nearly destroyed it.
> >>> Only in the world of right-wing talk radio.
> >> Yeah, funny how the decline of the middle class has coincided with the
> >> decline of the power of unions. That must be because we made the
> >> mistake of not giving the rich and powerful _even more_ power and
> >> riches! After all, they know what's best for all of us.
>
> > There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K a
> > year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT).
>
> What is overtime pay?
>
> > Compare that to a family
> > practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education and student
> > loans making $140K. Some unions have managed to make a few people
> > very wealthy, and very powerful unions have shown that they can be
> > just as ruthless as the worst businesses. It is not a clear cut issue.
>
> How many union workers make more than a doctor?
>
> > From the standpoint of economic efficiency, unions are bad. From a
> > social welfare standpoint, unions are good. So, the real question is
> > where do we strike the line between economic efficiency and social
> > welfare. If you don't get it just right, industries collapses and
> > everybody loses, ala Detroit.
>
> Detroit collapsed due to crappy management not allowing their engineers
> to design and build competitive cars. However, the management took care
> of their own, granting themselves personal fortunes worth millions.
>
> > Or, you end up with sweatshops. That is
> > not as likely nowadays with federal and state minimum wage laws, Fair
> > Labor Standards Act -- but it is still possible.
>
> Really? When I had to leave school due to medical issues, sweatshop
> labor was all that was available - minimum wage, no benefits, no job
> security and dangerous and unpleasant working conditions. All here in
> the US of A.
I started working at age 8 for $.15 an hour -- in the family store. I
have been working ever since -- through highschool, college, grad
school, law school (on my own dime). All kinds of work. I worked
ambulance night shifts 60 hours a week at $2.25 an hour through my
first year of college (cut back after that). Union garbage men were
earning nearly twice that.
This whining about working a minimum wage job carries absolutely no
weight with me. It used to be that everyone worked a minimum wage job.
Now, those jobs go to illegals, and the middle class kids expect to be
coddled by their parents until they enter the white collar work force.
People don't know how to work anymore.-- Jay Beattie.
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 07:50:07
From: DI
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
"Jay Beattie" <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com > wrote in message
news:1186979795.909612.231010@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> I started working at age 8 for $.15 an hour -- in the family store. I
> have been working ever since -- through highschool, college, grad
> school, law school (on my own dime). All kinds of work. I worked
> ambulance night shifts 60 hours a week at $2.25 an hour through my
> first year of college (cut back after that). Union garbage men were
> earning nearly twice that.
>
> This whining about working a minimum wage job carries absolutely no
> weight with me. It used to be that everyone worked a minimum wage job.
> Now, those jobs go to illegals, and the middle class kids expect to be
> coddled by their parents until they enter the white collar work force.
> People don't know how to work anymore.-- Jay Beattie.
>
>
Finally someone on this list that knows what's going on, absolutely true.
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 00:14:53
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Jay Beattie wrote:
> On Aug 12, 7:00 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
>> Jay Beattie wrote:
>>> On Aug 12, 3:22 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>> RonSonic wrote:
>>>>>>>> Unions are a very nice part of the free market.
>>>>>>> Yup. They are what created most of the American middle class.
>>>>>> And then nearly destroyed it.
>>>>> Only in the world of right-wing talk radio.
>>>> Yeah, funny how the decline of the middle class has coincided with the
>>>> decline of the power of unions. That must be because we made the
>>>> mistake of not giving the rich and powerful _even more_ power and
>>>> riches! After all, they know what's best for all of us.
>>> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K a
>>> year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT).
>> What is overtime pay?
>>
>>> Compare that to a family
>>> practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education and student
>>> loans making $140K. Some unions have managed to make a few people
>>> very wealthy, and very powerful unions have shown that they can be
>>> just as ruthless as the worst businesses. It is not a clear cut issue.
>> How many union workers make more than a doctor?
>>
>>> From the standpoint of economic efficiency, unions are bad. From a
>>> social welfare standpoint, unions are good. So, the real question is
>>> where do we strike the line between economic efficiency and social
>>> welfare. If you don't get it just right, industries collapses and
>>> everybody loses, ala Detroit.
>> Detroit collapsed due to crappy management not allowing their engineers
>> to design and build competitive cars. However, the management took care
>> of their own, granting themselves personal fortunes worth millions.
>>
>>> Or, you end up with sweatshops. That is
>>> not as likely nowadays with federal and state minimum wage laws, Fair
>>> Labor Standards Act -- but it is still possible.
>> Really? When I had to leave school due to medical issues, sweatshop
>> labor was all that was available - minimum wage, no benefits, no job
>> security and dangerous and unpleasant working conditions. All here in
>> the US of A.
>
> I started working at age 8 for $.15 an hour -- in the family store. I
> have been working ever since -- through highschool, college, grad
> school, law school (on my own dime). All kinds of work. I worked
> ambulance night shifts 60 hours a week at $2.25 an hour through my
> first year of college (cut back after that). Union garbage men were
> earning nearly twice that.
>
> This whining about working a minimum wage job carries absolutely no
> weight with me. It used to be that everyone worked a minimum wage job.
Oh please. There are plenty of people who get high wage jobs handed to
them through nepotism and favoritism.
> Now, those jobs go to illegals, and the middle class kids expect to be
> coddled by their parents until they enter the white collar work force.
> People don't know how to work anymore.-- Jay Beattie.
Yeah, and the minimum wage jobs used to pay twice what they do now.
I hope you don't have permanent injuries from these jobs, as so many do.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 00:43:01
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 16, 11:28 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org>
> > But anyway, you ask what the FedGov's interest is.
> > Purely apart from its interest in ensuring a stable
> > and civilized society where cities are not wiped off
> > the map, New Orleans is of strategic importance due
> > to its location at the mouth of the Mississippi and
> > its status as an oil terminal. It may be a stupid
> > place to put a city, but there is going to be a city
> > there whether anyone likes it or not. The only
> > question is what kind of city and who benefits.
>
> Then you do advocate federal law enforcement.
> Armed federal officers patrolling the streets,
> with insurgents setting ambushes detonating
> home-made bombs.
In New Orleans? Get real. The history of domestic intervention
after major disasters or civil unrest (1968 riots, LA riots,
earthquakes, fires, etc) is that when the National Guard comes to
town in force, anybody with thoughts of criminal mischief goes
to ground. The major exception that I can think of is 1962 at the
University of Mississippi when students, miscreants, and
upstanding citizens of Mississippi rioted against Federal
marshals and trapped them and James Meredith in campus
buildings until JFK sent in the regular Army.
However, you raise an interesting point. I keep hearing
that we have to fight insurgents "over there" (Iraq) or we'll
have to fight them "over here." Obviously, we're at a huge
disadvantage "over there" because it's partly their country
and the civilians aren't sympathetic to us. We would be
doing much better if we could get a few of the insurgents
to a place where we could take care of them on our own
terms. I don't think they'd last very long in, say, Detroit.
Ben
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Date: 16 Aug 2007 21:21:06
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article
<1187311381.366062.132410@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com >
,
"bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org >
wrote:
> On Aug 16, 11:28 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org>
>
> > > But anyway, you ask what the FedGov's interest is.
> > > Purely apart from its interest in ensuring a stable
> > > and civilized society where cities are not wiped off
> > > the map, New Orleans is of strategic importance due
> > > to its location at the mouth of the Mississippi and
> > > its status as an oil terminal. It may be a stupid
> > > place to put a city, but there is going to be a city
> > > there whether anyone likes it or not. The only
> > > question is what kind of city and who benefits.
> >
> > Then you do advocate federal law enforcement.
> > Armed federal officers patrolling the streets,
> > with insurgents setting ambushes detonating
> > home-made bombs.
>
> In New Orleans? Get real. The history of domestic intervention
> after major disasters or civil unrest (1968 riots, LA riots,
> earthquakes, fires, etc) is that when the National Guard comes to
> town in force, anybody with thoughts of criminal mischief goes
> to ground. The major exception that I can think of is 1962 at the
> University of Mississippi when students, miscreants, and
> upstanding citizens of Mississippi rioted against Federal
> marshals and trapped them and James Meredith in campus
> buildings until JFK sent in the regular Army.
>
> However, you raise an interesting point. I keep hearing
> that we have to fight insurgents "over there" (Iraq) or we'll
> have to fight them "over here." Obviously, we're at a huge
> disadvantage "over there" because it's partly their country
> and the civilians aren't sympathetic to us. We would be
> doing much better if we could get a few of the insurgents
> to a place where we could take care of them on our own
> terms. I don't think they'd last very long in, say, Detroit.
I am from a suburb of Detroit, a suburb with a
population of Syrians and Lebanese established well
before my grandparents immigrated here from eastern
Europe. Rode in a school bus regularly stoned by
neighborhood Syrian yutes.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 15 Aug 2007 18:30:04
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 15, 8:07 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> In article
> <ck37c3p3gjttmcr6fu28qgviusd32jk...@4ax.com>,
> John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
>
>
>
> wrote:
> > On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 11:30:25 -0700, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > >In article <46c240a8$0$6402$4c368...@roadrunner.com>,
> > > "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>
> > >> A Muzi wrote:
> > >> >>> "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
> > >> >>>> No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs. You
> > >> >>>> Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs, earned
> > >> >>>> income credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care cash,
> > >> >>>> housing assistance, free gas for cars, etc, etc.
>
> > >> >> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> > >> >>> Rant on please. Rant on.
> > >> >>> I'd love you to use your full name too. Not that anyone here will
> > >> >>> bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
>
> > >> > Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> > >> >> I always wonder why some right-wingers are so shy when it comes to
> > >> >> standing behind their beliefs? It is not like they would get
> > >> >> persecuted for voicing them (unless they believe the Commies in the
> > >> >> Black UN Helicopters [TM] are coming to take over any day).
>
> > >> > I'm not shy.
> > >> > The UN is a major force for evil in the world - right up there with N
> > >> > Korea and Iran. Fortunately they couldn't manage a helicopter attack
> > >> > if their lives depended on it. Nothing to fear in that regard. They
> > >> > run more to corruption, outright theft, child slavery,
> > >> > enabling/excusing vicious dictatorships. Pathetic, not scary.
>
> > >> True...but very dangerous. I say kick 'em the hell out of NYC.
>
> > >Drive a jet liner into it.
>
> > You're a total asshole.
>
> Wow!
>
You should wear that like a medal, Michael. ;-)
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Date: 15 Aug 2007 11:38:33
From: Ed Pirrero
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 15, 1:16 am, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me > wrote:
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>
> > DI (who?) anonymously snipes:
> >> ...
> >> E.P. you've got to the point where you don't make much sense, you're
> >> speculating, name calling, & mostly lying. I expected this from
> >> Sunset, but not you. You are not able to discredit me...
> > How can one discredit a sock puppet?
>
> For whom is Edie pen-writing now? HWNMNBM comes to mind, but he doesn't
> need help being self-satisfied and condescending...
You're confused, Bill.
I'm not a sock-puppet for anyone, just to clear that up. And Tom was
speaking about DI, not me.
I'm sorry my writings inspire inferiority feelings in you. I will
admit that I do that on purpose, on occasion. When the poster to whom
I'm replying says something really dumb...
E.P.
|
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 07:54:31
From: DI
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
"Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote in message
news:46bfdcb5$0$16326$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>
> Oh please. There are plenty of people who get high wage jobs handed to
> them through nepotism and favoritism.
You sound like you've been passed over a few times, but judging from what
you post on this list, I think there's a reason you were passed over for
better jobs, it's a personality thing.
>
>> Now, those jobs go to illegals, and the middle class kids expect to be
>> coddled by their parents until they enter the white collar work force.
>> People don't know how to work anymore.-- Jay Beattie.
>
> Yeah, and the minimum wage jobs used to pay twice what they do now.
Nonsense.
>
> I hope you don't have permanent injuries from these jobs, as so many do.
Getting your hands dirty is not a permanent injury, you shouldn't fear it so
much.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>
|
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 21:30:57
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
DI (who?) anonymously snipes:
> "Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote in message
> news:46bfdcb5$0$16326$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>> Oh please. There are plenty of people who get high wage jobs handed to
>> them through nepotism and favoritism.
>
> You sound like you've been passed over a few times, but judging from what
> you post on this list, I think there's a reason you were passed over for
> better jobs, it's a personality thing.
Obviously clueless.
>>> Now, those jobs go to illegals, and the middle class kids expect to be
>>> coddled by their parents until they enter the white collar work force.
>>> People don't know how to work anymore.-- Jay Beattie.
>> Yeah, and the minimum wage jobs used to pay twice what they do now.
>
> Nonsense.
Your inflation calculator broken?
>> I hope you don't have permanent injuries from these jobs, as so many do.
>
> Getting your hands dirty is not a permanent injury, you shouldn't fear it so
> much.
If you consider having trouble sleeping due to pain to be "getting ones
hands dirty", you truly are beyond the pale.
BTW, it has been over 2 hours and 58 minutes since I last got my hands
dirty at work.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 20:39:47
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 07:54:31 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net > wrote:
>> Yeah, and the minimum wage jobs used to pay twice what they do now.
>
>Nonsense.
How stupid are you? Do you understand the concept of inflation and
actual purchasing power?
--
JT
****************************
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 19:48:09
From: DI
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote in message
news:rdu1c3d1eoca1r92mgeqeriqr75scpd5tf@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 07:54:31 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
.
> How stupid are you? Do you understand the concept of inflation and
> actual purchasing power?
>
> --
> JT
Not stupid enough to be a Dem.
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 21:01:09
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 19:48:09 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net > wrote:
>
>"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote in message
>news:rdu1c3d1eoca1r92mgeqeriqr75scpd5tf@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 07:54:31 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>.
>> How stupid are you? Do you understand the concept of inflation and
>> actual purchasing power?
>
>Not stupid enough to be a Dem.
That really says it all. Pride in factual ignorance as long as you
don't have to change your political views. It's the very definition
of reactionary.
--
JT
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 21:03:13
From: DI
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote in message
news:9lv1c3d2lhp2c70tefg7qjsn5cutsls03k@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 19:48:09 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote in message
>>news:rdu1c3d1eoca1r92mgeqeriqr75scpd5tf@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 07:54:31 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>>.
>>> How stupid are you? Do you understand the concept of inflation and
>>> actual purchasing power?
>>
>>Not stupid enough to be a Dem.
>
> That really says it all. Pride in factual ignorance as long as you
> don't have to change your political views. It's the very definition
> of reactionary.
> --
> JT
Did you ever think I just may think it's not the Federal Government's job to
tell a business how much they should or should not pay a person for doing a
job? No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs. You
Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs, earned income
credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care cash, housing assistance,
free gas for cars, etc, etc.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 22:20:01
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:03:13 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net > wrote:
>No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs. You
>Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs, earned income
>credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care cash, housing assistance,
>free gas for cars, etc, etc.
Rant on please. Rant on.
I'd love you to use your full name too. Not that anyone here will
bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 18:26:47
From: DI
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote in message
news:v842c3dgb7n8uogjkuqit097spnuscvsuc@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:03:13 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs. You
>>Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs, earned income
>>credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care cash, housing
>>assistance,
>>free gas for cars, etc, etc.
>
> Rant on please. Rant on.
>
> I'd love you to use your full name too. Not that anyone here will
> bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
>
> --
> JT
Why is so important that you know who I am, it wouldn't change either of our
opinions. I could really care less who you are.
|
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 19:51:27
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 18:26:47 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net > wrote:
>
>"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote in message
>news:v842c3dgb7n8uogjkuqit097spnuscvsuc@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:03:13 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs. You
>>>Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs, earned income
>>>credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care cash, housing
>>>assistance,
>>>free gas for cars, etc, etc.
>>
>> Rant on please. Rant on.
>>
>> I'd love you to use your full name too. Not that anyone here will
>> bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
>>
>Why is so important that you know who I am, it wouldn't change either of our
>opinions. I could really care less who you are.
I'm just pointing out that you're apparently ashamed of your views.
--
JT
****************************
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 21:30:21
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 18:26:47 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> "John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote in message
>> news:v842c3dgb7n8uogjkuqit097spnuscvsuc@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:03:13 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs. You
>>>> Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs, earned income
>>>> credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care cash, housing
>>>> assistance,
>>>> free gas for cars, etc, etc.
>>> Rant on please. Rant on.
>>>
>>> I'd love you to use your full name too. Not that anyone here will
>>> bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
>>>
>> Why is so important that you know who I am, it wouldn't change either of our
>> opinions. I could really care less who you are.
>
> I'm just pointing out that you're apparently ashamed of your views.
Maybe "DI" realizes that free speech in the US is more a theoretical
than practical concept? Heck, it was Milton Friedman who said the only
reason he had freedom of speech was that he was retired and economically
independent.
As an example, there are plenty of college professors who are learning
that using free speech has cost them any chance at being granted tenure
at most schools.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
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Date: 15 Aug 2007 14:37:03
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> As an example, there are plenty of college professors who are learning
> that using free speech has cost them any chance at being granted tenure
> at most schools.
Like Ward Churchill perhaps?
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
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Date: 15 Aug 2007 20:30:13
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Andrew Muzi wrote:
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> As an example, there are plenty of college professors who are learning
>> that using free speech has cost them any chance at being granted
>> tenure at most schools.
>
> Like Ward Churchill perhaps?
Norman Finklestein was denied tenure at DePaul for debunking Joan
Peters' anti-Palestinian screed "From Time Immemorial" and critiquing
the work of Alan Dershowitz. (It is interesting that a Catholic
institution would feel so much pressure from AIPAC et al.)
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
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Date: 15 Aug 2007 05:45:19
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 21:30:21 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote:
>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 18:26:47 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>> "John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote in message
>>> news:v842c3dgb7n8uogjkuqit097spnuscvsuc@4ax.com...
>>>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:03:13 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs. You
>>>>> Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs, earned income
>>>>> credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care cash, housing
>>>>> assistance,
>>>>> free gas for cars, etc, etc.
>>>> Rant on please. Rant on.
>>>>
>>>> I'd love you to use your full name too. Not that anyone here will
>>>> bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
>>>>
>>> Why is so important that you know who I am, it wouldn't change either of our
>>> opinions. I could really care less who you are.
>>
>> I'm just pointing out that you're apparently ashamed of your views.
>
>Maybe "DI" realizes that free speech in the US is more a theoretical
>than practical concept? Heck, it was Milton Friedman who said the only
>reason he had freedom of speech was that he was retired and economically
>independent.
>
>As an example, there are plenty of college professors who are learning
>that using free speech has cost them any chance at being granted tenure
>at most schools.
I'd accept DI's reticence to say who he/she is if he/she expressed
such fears. Rather the avoidance seems to be just churlish and shame.
--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 19:55:11
From: DI
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote in message
news:2vf4c3tqerkbb8dakt6qotj52272b0hg3q@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 18:26:47 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote in message
>>news:v842c3dgb7n8uogjkuqit097spnuscvsuc@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:03:13 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs. You
>>>>Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs, earned income
>>>>credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care cash, housing
>>>>assistance,
>>>>free gas for cars, etc, etc.
>>>
>>> Rant on please. Rant on.
>>>
>>> I'd love you to use your full name too. Not that anyone here will
>>> bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
>>>
>>Why is so important that you know who I am, it wouldn't change either of
>>our
>>opinions. I could really care less who you are.
>
> I'm just pointing out that you're apparently ashamed of your views.
>
> --
> JT
I'm not ashamed of any of my views because they aren't views, they're firm
beliefs based on actual experience. I don't feel I have to share something
personal with a couple of nobodies like you and Sunset. You can point out
all you want.
We've ripped old "Raleigh CF" up so much time to move on and wait for
another subject.
|
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Date: 15 Aug 2007 05:42:00
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 19:55:11 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net > wrote:
>I'm not ashamed of any of my views because they aren't views, they're firm
>beliefs based on actual experience. I don't feel I have to share something
>personal with a couple of nobodies like you and Sunset. You can point out
>all you want.
Hey, rationalize your embarrassment however you want.
In any case it's funny to call people with real names "nobodies".
--
JT
****************************
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****************************
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 22:11:11
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:03:13 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs. You
>> Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs, earned income
>> credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care cash, housing assistance,
>> free gas for cars, etc, etc.
>
> Rant on please. Rant on.
>
> I'd love you to use your full name too. Not that anyone here will
> bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
I always wonder why some right-wingers are so shy when it comes to
standing behind their beliefs? It is not like they would get persecuted
for voicing them (unless they believe the Commies in the Black UN
Helicopters [TM] are coming to take over any day).
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 18:28:26
From: DI
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
"Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote in message
news:46c11139$0$16334$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:03:13 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>> No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs. You
>>> Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs, earned income
>>> credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care cash, housing
>>> assistance, free gas for cars, etc, etc.
>>
>> Rant on please. Rant on. I'd love you to use your full name too. Not
>> that anyone here will
>> bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
>
> I always wonder why some right-wingers are so shy when it comes to
> standing behind their beliefs? It is not like they would get persecuted
> for voicing them (unless they believe the Commies in the Black UN
> Helicopters [TM] are coming to take over any day).
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> "I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
Not shy, it's just none of your business, get over it.
|
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 21:26:22
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
DI (who?) anonymously snipes:
> "Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote in message
> news:46c11139$0$16334$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:03:13 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs. You
>>>> Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs, earned income
>>>> credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care cash, housing
>>>> assistance, free gas for cars, etc, etc.
>>> Rant on please. Rant on. I'd love you to use your full name too. Not
>>> that anyone here will
>>> bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
>> I always wonder why some right-wingers are so shy when it comes to
>> standing behind their beliefs? It is not like they would get persecuted
>> for voicing them (unless they believe the Commies in the Black UN
>> Helicopters [TM] are coming to take over any day).
>>
>> --
>> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
>> "I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
>
>
> Not shy, it's just none of your business, get over it.
Afraid to put your name to your convictions, eh?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 18:21:50
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
>> "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>>> No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs. You
>>> Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs, earned
>>> income credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care cash,
>>> housing assistance, free gas for cars, etc, etc.
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> Rant on please. Rant on.
>> I'd love you to use your full name too. Not that anyone here will
>> bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> I always wonder why some right-wingers are so shy when it comes to
> standing behind their beliefs? It is not like they would get persecuted
> for voicing them (unless they believe the Commies in the Black UN
> Helicopters [TM] are coming to take over any day).
I'm not shy.
The UN is a major force for evil in the world - right up there with N
Korea and Iran. Fortunately they couldn't manage a helicopter attack if
their lives depended on it. Nothing to fear in that regard. They run
more to corruption, outright theft, child slavery, enabling/excusing
vicious dictatorships. Pathetic, not scary.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 21:25:02
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Andrew Muzi wrote:
>>> "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>>>> No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs. You
>>>> Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs, earned
>>>> income credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care cash,
>>>> housing assistance, free gas for cars, etc, etc.
>
> > John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>> Rant on please. Rant on. I'd love you to use your full name too. Not
>>> that anyone here will
>>> bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
>
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> I always wonder why some right-wingers are so shy when it comes to
>> standing behind their beliefs? It is not like they would get
>> persecuted for voicing them (unless they believe the Commies in the
>> Black UN Helicopters [TM] are coming to take over any day).
>
> I'm not shy.
> The UN is a major force for evil in the world - right up there with N
> Korea and Iran.
North Korea is mostly bad to its own people. Its relationship to the
rest of the world is one more of fear than malevolence.
Iran is not evil compared to many former and current US allies [1].
While repressive, the current government is not as bad as the Pahlavi
regime and its SAVAK political police was. Who knows what might have
been if Allen Dulles had not arranged the overthrow of the
DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED Mossaddeq government at the behest of the
Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (now British Petroleum)? All for Mossaddeq's
"crime" of believing that the Iranian people should benefit from
extraction of Iranian oil.
> Fortunately they couldn't manage a helicopter attack if
> their lives depended on it. Nothing to fear in that regard. They run
> more to corruption, outright theft, child slavery, enabling/excusing
> vicious dictatorships. Pathetic, not scary.
The biggest problem the UN has is the veto of the permanent security
council members, making all other countries second class.
[1] Like "our kind of guy" Suharto who slaughtered hundreds of thousands
in Indonesia and East Timor.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 16:54:14
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
A Muzi wrote:
>>> "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>>>> No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs. You
>>>> Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs, earned
>>>> income credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care cash,
>>>> housing assistance, free gas for cars, etc, etc.
>
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>> Rant on please. Rant on.
>>> I'd love you to use your full name too. Not that anyone here will
>>> bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
>
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> I always wonder why some right-wingers are so shy when it comes to
>> standing behind their beliefs? It is not like they would get
>> persecuted for voicing them (unless they believe the Commies in the
>> Black UN Helicopters [TM] are coming to take over any day).
>
> I'm not shy.
> The UN is a major force for evil in the world - right up there with N
> Korea and Iran. Fortunately they couldn't manage a helicopter attack
> if their lives depended on it. Nothing to fear in that regard. They
> run more to corruption, outright theft, child slavery,
> enabling/excusing vicious dictatorships. Pathetic, not scary.
True...but very dangerous. I say kick 'em the hell out of NYC.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 11:30:25
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article <46c240a8$0$6402$4c368faf@roadrunner.com >,
"Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me > wrote:
> A Muzi wrote:
> >>> "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
> >>>> No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs. You
> >>>> Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs, earned
> >>>> income credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care cash,
> >>>> housing assistance, free gas for cars, etc, etc.
> >
> >> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >>> Rant on please. Rant on.
> >>> I'd love you to use your full name too. Not that anyone here will
> >>> bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
> >
> > Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> >> I always wonder why some right-wingers are so shy when it comes to
> >> standing behind their beliefs? It is not like they would get
> >> persecuted for voicing them (unless they believe the Commies in the
> >> Black UN Helicopters [TM] are coming to take over any day).
> >
> > I'm not shy.
> > The UN is a major force for evil in the world - right up there with N
> > Korea and Iran. Fortunately they couldn't manage a helicopter attack
> > if their lives depended on it. Nothing to fear in that regard. They
> > run more to corruption, outright theft, child slavery,
> > enabling/excusing vicious dictatorships. Pathetic, not scary.
>
> True...but very dangerous. I say kick 'em the hell out of NYC.
Drive a jet liner into it.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 19:39:03
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 11:30:25 -0700, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net >
wrote:
>In article <46c240a8$0$6402$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me> wrote:
>
>> A Muzi wrote:
>> >>> "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>> >>>> No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs. You
>> >>>> Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs, earned
>> >>>> income credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care cash,
>> >>>> housing assistance, free gas for cars, etc, etc.
>> >
>> >> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> >>> Rant on please. Rant on.
>> >>> I'd love you to use your full name too. Not that anyone here will
>> >>> bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
>> >
>> > Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> >> I always wonder why some right-wingers are so shy when it comes to
>> >> standing behind their beliefs? It is not like they would get
>> >> persecuted for voicing them (unless they believe the Commies in the
>> >> Black UN Helicopters [TM] are coming to take over any day).
>> >
>> > I'm not shy.
>> > The UN is a major force for evil in the world - right up there with N
>> > Korea and Iran. Fortunately they couldn't manage a helicopter attack
>> > if their lives depended on it. Nothing to fear in that regard. They
>> > run more to corruption, outright theft, child slavery,
>> > enabling/excusing vicious dictatorships. Pathetic, not scary.
>>
>> True...but very dangerous. I say kick 'em the hell out of NYC.
>
>Drive a jet liner into it.
You're a total asshole.
--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 18:07:34
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article
<ck37c3p3gjttmcr6fu28qgviusd32jk8ua@4ax.com >,
John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 11:30:25 -0700, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <46c240a8$0$6402$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> > "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me> wrote:
> >
> >> A Muzi wrote:
> >> >>> "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
> >> >>>> No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs. You
> >> >>>> Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs, earned
> >> >>>> income credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care cash,
> >> >>>> housing assistance, free gas for cars, etc, etc.
> >> >
> >> >> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >> >>> Rant on please. Rant on.
> >> >>> I'd love you to use your full name too. Not that anyone here will
> >> >>> bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
> >> >
> >> > Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> >> >> I always wonder why some right-wingers are so shy when it comes to
> >> >> standing behind their beliefs? It is not like they would get
> >> >> persecuted for voicing them (unless they believe the Commies in the
> >> >> Black UN Helicopters [TM] are coming to take over any day).
> >> >
> >> > I'm not shy.
> >> > The UN is a major force for evil in the world - right up there with N
> >> > Korea and Iran. Fortunately they couldn't manage a helicopter attack
> >> > if their lives depended on it. Nothing to fear in that regard. They
> >> > run more to corruption, outright theft, child slavery,
> >> > enabling/excusing vicious dictatorships. Pathetic, not scary.
> >>
> >> True...but very dangerous. I say kick 'em the hell out of NYC.
> >
> >Drive a jet liner into it.
>
> You're a total asshole.
Wow!
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 15:27:58
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Michael Press wrote:
> In article <46c240a8$0$6402$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me> wrote:
>
>> A Muzi wrote:
>>>>> "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>>> No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs.
>>>>>> You Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs,
>>>>>> earned income credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care
>>>>>> cash, housing assistance, free gas for cars, etc, etc.
>>>
>>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>>> Rant on please. Rant on.
>>>>> I'd love you to use your full name too. Not that anyone here will
>>>>> bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
>>>
>>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>>> I always wonder why some right-wingers are so shy when it comes to
>>>> standing behind their beliefs? It is not like they would get
>>>> persecuted for voicing them (unless they believe the Commies in the
>>>> Black UN Helicopters [TM] are coming to take over any day).
>>>
>>> I'm not shy.
>>> The UN is a major force for evil in the world - right up there with
>>> N Korea and Iran. Fortunately they couldn't manage a helicopter
>>> attack if their lives depended on it. Nothing to fear in that
>>> regard. They run more to corruption, outright theft, child slavery,
>>> enabling/excusing vicious dictatorships. Pathetic, not scary.
>>
>> True...but very dangerous. I say kick 'em the hell out of NYC.
>
> Drive a jet liner into it.
Hmmm. Two replies, quite different in tone. Whaddup widdat?
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 18:06:43
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article <46c37def$0$3783$4c368faf@roadrunner.com >,
"Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me > wrote:
> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article <46c240a8$0$6402$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> > "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me> wrote:
> >
> >> A Muzi wrote:
> >>>>> "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
> >>>>>> No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs.
> >>>>>> You Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs,
> >>>>>> earned income credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care
> >>>>>> cash, housing assistance, free gas for cars, etc, etc.
> >>>
> >>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >>>>> Rant on please. Rant on.
> >>>>> I'd love you to use your full name too. Not that anyone here will
> >>>>> bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
> >>>
> >>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> >>>> I always wonder why some right-wingers are so shy when it comes to
> >>>> standing behind their beliefs? It is not like they would get
> >>>> persecuted for voicing them (unless they believe the Commies in the
> >>>> Black UN Helicopters [TM] are coming to take over any day).
> >>>
> >>> I'm not shy.
> >>> The UN is a major force for evil in the world - right up there with
> >>> N Korea and Iran. Fortunately they couldn't manage a helicopter
> >>> attack if their lives depended on it. Nothing to fear in that
> >>> regard. They run more to corruption, outright theft, child slavery,
> >>> enabling/excusing vicious dictatorships. Pathetic, not scary.
> >>
> >> True...but very dangerous. I say kick 'em the hell out of NYC.
> >
> > Drive a jet liner into it.
>
> Hmmm. Two replies, quite different in tone. Whaddup widdat?
Sorry, fell off my meds. All better now.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 20:15:16
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Michael Press wrote:
> ...
> Sorry, fell off my meds. All better now.
Keep your stick on the ice. We're all pulling for you.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 11:29:38
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article <46c240a8$0$6402$4c368faf@roadrunner.com >,
"Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me > wrote:
> A Muzi wrote:
> >>> "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
> >>>> No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs. You
> >>>> Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs, earned
> >>>> income credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care cash,
> >>>> housing assistance, free gas for cars, etc, etc.
> >
> >> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >>> Rant on please. Rant on.
> >>> I'd love you to use your full name too. Not that anyone here will
> >>> bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
> >
> > Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> >> I always wonder why some right-wingers are so shy when it comes to
> >> standing behind their beliefs? It is not like they would get
> >> persecuted for voicing them (unless they believe the Commies in the
> >> Black UN Helicopters [TM] are coming to take over any day).
> >
> > I'm not shy.
> > The UN is a major force for evil in the world - right up there with N
> > Korea and Iran. Fortunately they couldn't manage a helicopter attack
> > if their lives depended on it. Nothing to fear in that regard. They
> > run more to corruption, outright theft, child slavery,
> > enabling/excusing vicious dictatorships. Pathetic, not scary.
>
> True...but very dangerous. I say kick 'em the hell out of NYC.
I would rather have them close
where it is easier to monitor
some of the skullduggery.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 15:26:21
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Michael Press wrote:
> In article <46c240a8$0$6402$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me> wrote:
>
>> A Muzi wrote:
>>>>> "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>>> No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs.
>>>>>> You Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs,
>>>>>> earned income credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care
>>>>>> cash, housing assistance, free gas for cars, etc, etc.
>>>
>>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>>> Rant on please. Rant on.
>>>>> I'd love you to use your full name too. Not that anyone here will
>>>>> bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
>>>
>>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>>> I always wonder why some right-wingers are so shy when it comes to
>>>> standing behind their beliefs? It is not like they would get
>>>> persecuted for voicing them (unless they believe the Commies in the
>>>> Black UN Helicopters [TM] are coming to take over any day).
>>>
>>> I'm not shy.
>>> The UN is a major force for evil in the world - right up there with
>>> N Korea and Iran. Fortunately they couldn't manage a helicopter
>>> attack if their lives depended on it. Nothing to fear in that
>>> regard. They run more to corruption, outright theft, child slavery,
>>> enabling/excusing vicious dictatorships. Pathetic, not scary.
>>
>> True...but very dangerous. I say kick 'em the hell out of NYC.
>
> I would rather have them close
> where it is easier to monitor
> some of the skullduggery.
While I agree with this, it's unfortunate that the US pays the freight for
the UN in NYC, with not so much as a thank you much less ample compensation.
Make that unacceptable, not merely unfortunate.
Bill "disband the damned thing" S.
|
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 19:50:51
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 18:21:50 -0500, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org >
wrote:
>The UN is a major force for evil in the world - right up there with N
>Korea and Iran.
The UN has been instrumental in massive successes in public health
around the world. I wasn't aware that Iran and North Korea did such
things.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 03:41:10
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
THE CASUAL RELATIONSHIP IS THE USA DON'T MAKE NUTHIN ANYMORE!
|
| | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 17:54:27
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 12, 3:22 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>
> > Bill Sornson wrote:
>
> > > Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> > >> RonSonic wrote:
>
> > >>> Unions are a very nice part of the free market.
>
> > >> Yup. They are what created most of the American middle class.
>
> > > And then nearly destroyed it.
>
> > Only in the world of right-wing talk radio.
>
> Yeah, funny how the decline of the middle class has coincided with the
> decline of the power of unions. That must be because we made the
> mistake of not giving the rich and powerful _even more_ power and
> riches! After all, they know what's best for all of us.
There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K a
year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that to a family
practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education and student
loans making $140K. Some unions have managed to make a few people
very wealthy, and very powerful unions have shown that they can be
just as ruthless as the worst businesses. It is not a clear cut issue.
>From the standpoint of economic efficiency, unions are bad. From a
social welfare standpoint, unions are good. So, the real question is
where do we strike the line between economic efficiency and social
welfare. If you don't get it just right, industries collapses and
everybody loses, ala Detroit. Or, you end up with sweatshops. That is
not as likely nowadays with federal and state minimum wage laws, Fair
Labor Standards Act -- but it is still possible.
As for unions creating the middle class, that may have been true in
certain regions of the country like the Great Lakes, but it seems to
me that it created a precarious middle class that was received high
wages for performaing relatively unskilled work. When the work went
away, so did the middle class -- and so did any hope of making similar
wages because the workers lacked the skill to compete in the open
market. I don't advocate a strict market approach to wages or
employment, but there has to be a corelation between wages and skill
level, otherwise there is no incentive to improve and no chance for
real advancement in an increasingly skilled work force. -- Jay
Beattie.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 21:00:34
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Jay Beattie wrote:
> On Aug 12, 3:22 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>
>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>> RonSonic wrote:
>>>>>> Unions are a very nice part of the free market.
>>>>> Yup. They are what created most of the American middle class.
>>>> And then nearly destroyed it.
>>> Only in the world of right-wing talk radio.
>> Yeah, funny how the decline of the middle class has coincided with the
>> decline of the power of unions. That must be because we made the
>> mistake of not giving the rich and powerful _even more_ power and
>> riches! After all, they know what's best for all of us.
>
> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K a
> year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT).
What is overtime pay?
> Compare that to a family
> practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education and student
> loans making $140K. Some unions have managed to make a few people
> very wealthy, and very powerful unions have shown that they can be
> just as ruthless as the worst businesses. It is not a clear cut issue.
How many union workers make more than a doctor?
> From the standpoint of economic efficiency, unions are bad. From a
> social welfare standpoint, unions are good. So, the real question is
> where do we strike the line between economic efficiency and social
> welfare. If you don't get it just right, industries collapses and
> everybody loses, ala Detroit.
Detroit collapsed due to crappy management not allowing their engineers
to design and build competitive cars. However, the management took care
of their own, granting themselves personal fortunes worth millions.
> Or, you end up with sweatshops. That is
> not as likely nowadays with federal and state minimum wage laws, Fair
> Labor Standards Act -- but it is still possible.
Really? When I had to leave school due to medical issues, sweatshop
labor was all that was available - minimum wage, no benefits, no job
security and dangerous and unpleasant working conditions. All here in
the US of A.
> As for unions creating the middle class, that may have been true in
> certain regions of the country like the Great Lakes, but it seems to
> me that it created a precarious middle class that was received high
> wages for performaing relatively unskilled work. When the work went
> away, so did the middle class -- and so did any hope of making similar
> wages because the workers lacked the skill to compete in the open
> market. I don't advocate a strict market approach to wages or
> employment, but there has to be a corelation between wages and skill
> level, otherwise there is no incentive to improve and no chance for
> real advancement in an increasingly skilled work force.
Why borrow ten of thousands of dollars to get an education when the jobs
will either be turned to a commodity or outsourced?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct wave
Point” - gene daniels
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 22:44:39
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 15, 11:21 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> > Interestingly, it turns out that there is, in fact, a vast spectrum
> > and difference between competent and incompetent bureaucrats,
> > and that we spend a lot of time relying on the competence of
> > bureaucrats we don't know or never thank; we only notice
> > bureaucrats when they screw up. Examples of this include
> > food safety, air and transportation, and of course the response
> > to Hurricane Katrina, which starred the inadequacy of Michael
> > "heckuva job" Brown, hired on the basis of his social connections,
> > but co-featured incompetency stretching up to the highest levels.
> > Sadly, there were plenty of competent bureaucrats at places like
> > the hurricane center, but not at the levers of power.
>
> Since you want to drag that hurricane into it, it is
> not the federal government but the intransigence and
> corruption of the local government refusing to build up
> levees that could resist a storm surge, choosing
> instead to pocket federal money contributed to build
> the levees, that is the scandal here. Everybody blames
> the federal government. Anybody would look bad trying
> to clean that up, particularly given the apathy,
> intransigence and corruption of the New Orleans
> governments/infrastructure. I thought we were in favor
> of state's rights. What exactly is the federal
> governments interest in humping the mud out of New
> Orleans? What is the proper response to endemic rioting
> and lawlessness? Federal troops shooting down citizens?
> (registered voters)
>
> As I am now posting to this thread, I agree that there
> are competent bureaucrats, and since the federal
> government gets first choice out of the best
> universities, they may have a higher fraction of
> competence than many other jurisdictions.
I spoke of competent vs incompetent bureaucrats,
not New Orleans and Gulf Coast elected officials
(it wasn't just New Orleans that we failed to
clean up, BTW). There is a difference between
looking bad trying to clean something up, and
looking like you don't care at all.
But anyway, you ask what the FedGov's interest is.
Purely apart from its interest in ensuring a stable
and civilized society where cities are not wiped off
the map, New Orleans is of strategic importance due
to its location at the mouth of the Mississippi and
its status as an oil terminal. It may be a stupid
place to put a city, but there is going to be a city
there whether anyone likes it or not. The only
question is what kind of city and who benefits.
Let's have everybody held to these exacting
standards of self-reliance.
I don't see Californians turning down generous
earthquake and fire reconstruction assistance from
the FedGov when they need it, despite the obvious
foolish location of most major California population
centers. If the Big One splits Los Angeles in half,
we'll have to rebuild it because we need the Port of
Long Beach. I like San Francisco, but I'm not sure
it's strategically necessary, so tough shit,
Northern Californians. At least the climate is
pretty good for growing your own food, so rebuilding
as a subsistence economy shouldn't take more than
a couple of generations.
(Don't get cocky, you in the rest of the country.
If California's Central and Salinas Valleys stop
trading with us, you'll be eating fresh vegetables
and greens once a year and liking it.)
Ben
former Californian (both S and N)
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 16 Aug 2007 11:28:42
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article
<1187243079.160389.220050@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com >
,
"bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org >
wrote:
> On Aug 15, 11:21 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > > Interestingly, it turns out that there is, in fact, a vast spectrum
> > > and difference between competent and incompetent bureaucrats,
> > > and that we spend a lot of time relying on the competence of
> > > bureaucrats we don't know or never thank; we only notice
> > > bureaucrats when they screw up. Examples of this include
> > > food safety, air and transportation, and of course the response
> > > to Hurricane Katrina, which starred the inadequacy of Michael
> > > "heckuva job" Brown, hired on the basis of his social connections,
> > > but co-featured incompetency stretching up to the highest levels.
> > > Sadly, there were plenty of competent bureaucrats at places like
> > > the hurricane center, but not at the levers of power.
> >
> > Since you want to drag that hurricane into it, it is
> > not the federal government but the intransigence and
> > corruption of the local government refusing to build up
> > levees that could resist a storm surge, choosing
> > instead to pocket federal money contributed to build
> > the levees, that is the scandal here. Everybody blames
> > the federal government. Anybody would look bad trying
> > to clean that up, particularly given the apathy,
> > intransigence and corruption of the New Orleans
> > governments/infrastructure. I thought we were in favor
> > of state's rights. What exactly is the federal
> > governments interest in humping the mud out of New
> > Orleans? What is the proper response to endemic rioting
> > and lawlessness? Federal troops shooting down citizens?
> > (registered voters)
> >
> > As I am now posting to this thread, I agree that there
> > are competent bureaucrats, and since the federal
> > government gets first choice out of the best
> > universities, they may have a higher fraction of
> > competence than many other jurisdictions.
>
> I spoke of competent vs incompetent bureaucrats,
> not New Orleans and Gulf Coast elected officials
> (it wasn't just New Orleans that we failed to
> clean up, BTW). There is a difference between
> looking bad trying to clean something up, and
> looking like you don't care at all.
>
> But anyway, you ask what the FedGov's interest is.
> Purely apart from its interest in ensuring a stable
> and civilized society where cities are not wiped off
> the map, New Orleans is of strategic importance due
> to its location at the mouth of the Mississippi and
> its status as an oil terminal. It may be a stupid
> place to put a city, but there is going to be a city
> there whether anyone likes it or not. The only
> question is what kind of city and who benefits.
Then you do advocate federal law enforcement.
Armed federal officers patrolling the streets,
with insurgents setting ambushes detonating
home-made bombs.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 20:24:11
From: Ed Pirrero
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 15, 12:37 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>
> > As an example, there are plenty of college professors who are learning
> > that using free speech has cost them any chance at being granted tenure
> > at most schools.
>
> Like Ward Churchill perhaps?
Nope.
He had tenure, and got nailed for academic fraud. Of course, if he
hadn't said stuff that was so incredibly unpopular, his administration
wouldn't have looked so carefully into his body of "work".
The proximate cause of his firing wasn't because of his published
opinions. But to say that the opinions had nothing to do with it
would be dishonest. And yes, before a professor gets tenure, that
professor must be very careful not to offend any of the folks who may
be deciding on whether or not that professor gets tenure.
Churchill got what he deserved, for the actual thing he did wrong.
But the fact that folks conflate the issues is precisely the reason
that tenure exists.
E.P.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 11:39:10
From: Ed Pirrero
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 14, 6:57 pm, "DI" <di9...@cox.net > wrote:
> "Ed Pirrero" <gcmschem...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1187142090.330429.36930@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 14, 3:38 pm, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> "Ed Pirrero" <gcmschem...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:1187125286.906290.61760@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> >> No, I just expect them to do their job in a reasonable and efficient
> >> >> way,
> >> >> and be accountable for their screw ups, same as you or I would working
> >> >> for a
> >> >> private company.
>
> >> > And mostly, they are. Just like at any big private company.
>
> >> NONSENSE
>
> > Yes, I understand that shouting a wrong assertion makes it somehow
> > magically correct.
>
> > Your emotional response indicates that you don't know anything, but
> > believe much.
>
> >> > You don't have a clue how things work in government, do you?
>
> >> I have a very good clue how things work in government...
>
> > I haven't seen any evidence from it in your writings. Mostly talk-
> > radio hyperbole.
>
> >> > Except that's not possible. No regulation = anarchy, and anarchy
> >> > invites despotism.
>
> > [non-response deleted]
>
> > Your attempt at name-calling really does point out how weak your
> > argument is. Reiterating talk-show boilerplate doesn't support your
> > position in the least.
>
> > A 200-level political science class at the nearest university will
> > help you make the connection. But since you already know all there is
> > to know on the subject, maybe you should teach it, yes?
>
> >> > And if you are like any of the other small-minded "don't regulate me"
> >> > types, you'll bitch loudest when someone does something that's
> >> > allowed, but that you don't like.
>
> >> I don't think it's being "small minded" to want to have control over your
> >> own destiny.
>
> > Except that "control over your own destiny" is an illusion, and always
> > has been. You are always responsible to others for your actions, and
> > everything you do has an impact on someone else.
>
> > Only the most very selfish people believe that there should be no
> > rules.
>
> >> especially when that beuracrat was most likely hired based on
> >> his social status, and even more so likely graduated at the bottom of his
> >> class.
>
> > I am sure you believe that to be true. Of course, some folks believe
> > in space aliens...
>
> > E.P.
>
> E.P. you've got to the point where you don't make much sense, you're
> speculating, name calling, & mostly lying.
LOL. Pot, kettle, black.
E.P.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 21:01:43
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:54:27 -0700, Jay Beattie
<jbeattie@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
>There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K a
>year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that to a family
>practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education and student
>loans making $140K.
Is that longshoreman thing common? And does the job involve personal
danger?
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 22:32:25
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
> Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K a
>> year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that to a family
>> practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education and student
>> loans making $140K.
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> Is that longshoreman thing common? And does the job involve personal
> danger?
Dunno about $300k. Just saw a report on LA Port where nearly a
half-million jobs at over $50K are directly supported by the port
operations.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 23:42:41
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article <13bvk5rgu77lq47@corp.supernews.com >,
A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> > Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> >> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K
> >> a year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that to a
> >> family practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education
> >> and student loans making $140K.
>
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> > Is that longshoreman thing common? And does the job involve
> > personal danger?
>
> Dunno about $300k. Just saw a report on LA Port where nearly a
> half-million jobs at over $50K are directly supported by the port
> operations.
Remembering that the average wage has been flat to declining since 1970,
when corrected for inflation, that's the equivalent of a $9,311 wage in
1970. According to federal government figures, the median income in
1970 was $9,116. So today's $50K per year port worker is just barely
better off than the average American in 1970. Woo-hoo. I am worse off
than the average 1970 American, making under $45K.
It's interesting that we can, as a people, lose ground over a 35+ year
period and yet have elected officials of both major political parties
extolling our "prosperity." How is lower income and higher debt more
prosperous? The top end of the income spectrum is much more prosperous,
rivaling Croesus in many cases in greed, ambition and exploitive
tendencies. Corporate profits are up but ain't being shared with the
people who make those profits possible.
Between 2001 and 2004, during an "economic recovery" no less, median
income in the US for people under the age of 45 fell by 9% and was lower
than in 1970: 20% less for those under 35 and 11% less for those under
45. The percentage of Americans below the poverty line increased each
year in that same period. According to government figures a higher
percentage of the economic gains during the recovery went to corporate
profits, and a smaller percentage to the lower and middle classes, than
during any other recovery since WWII.
By comparison, the average cost of a home has increased at a rate three
times that of inflation since 1970. Any surprise that subprime
mortgages are a problem?
When I was a kid, one working parent was the norm and sufficient to
raise a family and own a nice home in the 'burbs of Chicago. Now two
working parents can't pay the mortgage. Seems like we have us an
anti-family values situation.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 11:10:00
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <13bvk5rgu77lq47@corp.supernews.com>,
> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>> Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>>>> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K
>>>> a year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that to a
>>>> family practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education
>>>> and student loans making $140K.
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>> Is that longshoreman thing common? And does the job involve
>>> personal danger?
>> Dunno about $300k. Just saw a report on LA Port where nearly a
>> half-million jobs at over $50K are directly supported by the port
>> operations.
>
> Remembering that the average wage has been flat to declining since 1970,
> when corrected for inflation, that's the equivalent of a $9,311 wage in
> 1970. According to federal government figures, the median income in
> 1970 was $9,116. So today's $50K per year port worker is just barely
> better off than the average American in 1970. Woo-hoo. I am worse off
> than the average 1970 American, making under $45K.
>
> It's interesting that we can, as a people, lose ground over a 35+ year
> period and yet have elected officials of both major political parties
> extolling our "prosperity." How is lower income and higher debt more
> prosperous? The top end of the income spectrum is much more prosperous,
> rivaling Croesus in many cases in greed, ambition and exploitive
> tendencies. Corporate profits are up but ain't being shared with the
> people who make those profits possible.
>
> Between 2001 and 2004, during an "economic recovery" no less, median
> income in the US for people under the age of 45 fell by 9% and was lower
> than in 1970: 20% less for those under 35 and 11% less for those under
> 45. The percentage of Americans below the poverty line increased each
> year in that same period. According to government figures a higher
> percentage of the economic gains during the recovery went to corporate
> profits, and a smaller percentage to the lower and middle classes, than
> during any other recovery since WWII.
>
> By comparison, the average cost of a home has increased at a rate three
> times that of inflation since 1970. Any surprise that subprime
> mortgages are a problem?
>
> When I was a kid, one working parent was the norm and sufficient to
> raise a family and own a nice home in the 'burbs of Chicago. Now two
> working parents can't pay the mortgage. Seems like we have us an
> anti-family values situation.
My income is half yours, but I live very well in a wonderful
civilization rich with opportunity and breadth (used bookstores!),
increasingly diverse and stimulating (usenet!) I have riches the Kings
of old could not imagine.
envy is not a beautiful thing. Get over it.
(or take a night school MBA and make some money - your choice!)
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 20:46:40
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Andrew Muzi wrote:
> ...
> My income is half yours, but I live very well in a wonderful
> civilization rich with opportunity and breadth (used bookstores!),
> increasingly diverse and stimulating (usenet!) I have riches the Kings
> of old could not imagine.
Here is a failing of the free market. Customers/clients are not able to
properly judge the quality of service, so those who do good work are not
compensated any more than those who do shoddy work. (This problem goes
far beyond bicycle service.)
> envy is not a beautiful thing. Get over it.
> (or take a night school MBA and make some money - your choice!)
Not at all the case. Would you consider it envy for someone to state
theft should be prevented, judging that they are simply envious of the
thief for getting something without working for it?
The greatest theft in society is done by the rich, and it is legal (but
immoral).
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 18:04:28
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
> Andrew Muzi wrote:
>> ...
>> My income is half yours, but I live very well in a wonderful
>> civilization rich with opportunity and breadth (used bookstores!),
>> increasingly diverse and stimulating (usenet!) I have riches the Kings
>> of old could not imagine.
Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> Here is a failing of the free market. Customers/clients are not able to
> properly judge the quality of service, so those who do good work are not
> compensated any more than those who do shoddy work. (This problem goes
> far beyond bicycle service.)
>
>> envy is not a beautiful thing. Get over it.
>> (or take a night school MBA and make some money - your choice!)
>
> Not at all the case. Would you consider it envy for someone to state
> theft should be prevented, judging that they are simply envious of the
> thief for getting something without working for it?
>
> The greatest theft in society is done by the rich, and it is legal (but
> immoral).
You seem to have a very small understanding of the issues and a lot of
emotional baggage preventing you from a larger perspective. Income
groups in USA are extremely dynamic. I noted earlier that almost no
real wealth here is inherited. Michael Dell and Bill Gates are more
typical. Of those few, do you really fear Paris Hilton??
The Italians were 'on the outs' when my family arrived. Now Italians
run not only the mob but a good chunk of America, all parts of society.
Remember the early 90s LA riots - Koreans were persecuted because they
came here with 37c and no English yet were resented a few years later
because they owned entire neighborhoods. The Cubans are reviled in Miami
primarily because they work, they save and they vote. They worked hard
and saved, some 'cheating', huh? The guys hanging out on the corner
passing a beer sure resent others' achievement. Doesn't make work wrong
in any way.
Pure envy drives a lot of this. That and the guilt of not having worked
and saved. There are no barriers here in USA from taking a second job,
renting out a room, flipping cars, making a startup home business (all
things I have done personally) for a few years to get going. Or of
course you could bitch about 'systemic unfairness'.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 20:41:50
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Andrew Muzi wrote:
>> Andrew Muzi wrote:
>>> ...
>>> My income is half yours, but I live very well in a wonderful
>>> civilization rich with opportunity and breadth (used bookstores!),
>>> increasingly diverse and stimulating (usenet!) I have riches the
>>> Kings of old could not imagine.
>
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> Here is a failing of the free market. Customers/clients are not able
>> to properly judge the quality of service, so those who do good work
>> are not compensated any more than those who do shoddy work. (This
>> problem goes far beyond bicycle service.)
>>
>>> envy is not a beautiful thing. Get over it.
>>> (or take a night school MBA and make some money - your choice!)
>>
>> Not at all the case. Would you consider it envy for someone to state
>> theft should be prevented, judging that they are simply envious of the
>> thief for getting something without working for it?
>>
>> The greatest theft in society is done by the rich, and it is legal
>> (but immoral).
>
> You seem to have a very small understanding of the issues and a lot of
> emotional baggage preventing you from a larger perspective. Income
> groups in USA are extremely dynamic. I noted earlier that almost no
> real wealth here is inherited. Michael Dell and Bill Gates are more
> typical. Of those few, do you really fear Paris Hilton??
Income groups in the US are not "extremely dynamic", especially compared
to Scandinavia. Most of the really rich inherited the money. Those who
did not are the outliers. Please provide a citation showing otherwise.
Instead of Paris Hilton, what about the Scaife and Olin families that
fund right-wing "think tanks" that are given great access to the
mainstream media by its corporate owners, and therefore are able to
mislead the public?
How about Eric Prince who inherited his wealth, and has used it to
create the neo-con Praetorian Guard (Blackwater)?
How about the Bush "Rangers" and "Pioneers" that have bought the current
administration's policy? Or the late Ken Lay, who engineered a theft of
hundreds of millions of dollars from California eletrical service
customers, while the federal government deliberately took no action?
> The Italians were 'on the outs' when my family arrived. Now Italians run
> not only the mob but a good chunk of America, all parts of society.
> Remember the early 90s LA riots - Koreans were persecuted because they
> came here with 37c and no English yet were resented a few years later
> because they owned entire neighborhoods. The Cubans are reviled in Miami
> primarily because they work, they save and they vote. They worked hard
> and saved, some 'cheating', huh? The guys hanging out on the corner
> passing a beer sure resent others' achievement. Doesn't make work wrong
> in any way.
How about those of us that PAID to go to school, got a graduate degree,
got a professional job (with a salary in the normal range), yet still
make a real hourly wage (adjusted for inflation) that is the same as a
student in the 1960's made doing part-time summer construction work
(actual case here)? Why have wages dropped (for all but upper
management) while productivity has increased?
> Pure envy drives a lot of this. That and the guilt of not having worked
> and saved.
I average about 3000 hours of work a year, and have worked at least five
(5) weekend days for every day of vacation and/or sick leave (one (1)
sick day in the last ten (10) years of work) I have taken. I have lost
over six (6) weeks of vacation time earned, since I was too busy to take
time off.
Should I feel guilty about not putting in more effort?
As for saving, I have a cheap apartment, a low end car [1], and almost
never go out for entertainment unless socially obligated through work. I
have not saved much, since I have paid thousands of dollars of medical
expenses out of pocket, and will pay off my student loans several years
ahead of schedule.
Should I feel guilty for not saving more?
> There are no barriers here in USA from taking a second job,
> renting out a room, flipping cars, making a startup home business (all
> things I have done personally) for a few years to get going. Or of
> course you could bitch about 'systemic unfairness'.
I worked more than 3900 hours each year in 1994 and 1995 (after having
to leave college for medical reasons) and made less than $22,000 each
year. Almost all of that went to rent, food and medical expenses. Not
exactly great opportunities.
Too bad I did not have the family connections of a Neil Bush. Then I
could have started an oil company with a guaranteed government loan, not
found any oil, folded the company, and kept the several hundred
thousands of dollars of taxpayer money I paid myself in salary.
And how much money did you make at all these enterprises? Less than
someone who gets a legacy admission to an Ivy League school, then a
management job through family connections, I expect.
[1] I need to provide my own transportation to meetings and such, so
being car-less or using mass transit is not an option.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 16:47:35
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article <13c10id19fddc52@corp.supernews.com >,
A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <13bvk5rgu77lq47@corp.supernews.com>,
> > A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >>> Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> >>>> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to
> >>>> $300K a year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that to
> >>>> a family practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS
> >>>> education and student loans making $140K.
> >> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >>> Is that longshoreman thing common? And does the job involve
> >>> personal danger?
> >> Dunno about $300k. Just saw a report on LA Port where nearly a
> >> half-million jobs at over $50K are directly supported by the port
> >> operations.
> >
> > Remembering that the average wage has been flat to declining since
> > 1970, when corrected for inflation, that's the equivalent of a
> > $9,311 wage in 1970. According to federal government figures, the
> > median income in 1970 was $9,116. So today's $50K per year port
> > worker is just barely better off than the average American in 1970.
> > Woo-hoo. I am worse off than the average 1970 American, making
> > under $45K.
> >
> > It's interesting that we can, as a people, lose ground over a 35+
> > year period and yet have elected officials of both major political
> > parties extolling our "prosperity." How is lower income and higher
> > debt more prosperous? The top end of the income spectrum is much
> > more prosperous, rivaling Croesus in many cases in greed, ambition
> > and exploitive tendencies. Corporate profits are up but ain't
> > being shared with the people who make those profits possible.
> >
> > Between 2001 and 2004, during an "economic recovery" no less,
> > median income in the US for people under the age of 45 fell by 9%
> > and was lower than in 1970: 20% less for those under 35 and 11%
> > less for those under 45. The percentage of Americans below the
> > poverty line increased each year in that same period. According to
> > government figures a higher percentage of the economic gains during
> > the recovery went to corporate profits, and a smaller percentage to
> > the lower and middle classes, than during any other recovery since
> > WWII.
> >
> > By comparison, the average cost of a home has increased at a rate
> > three times that of inflation since 1970. Any surprise that
> > subprime mortgages are a problem?
> >
> > When I was a kid, one working parent was the norm and sufficient to
> > raise a family and own a nice home in the 'burbs of Chicago. Now
> > two working parents can't pay the mortgage. Seems like we have us
> > an anti-family values situation.
>
> My income is half yours, but I live very well in a wonderful
> civilization rich with opportunity and breadth (used bookstores!),
> increasingly diverse and stimulating (usenet!) I have riches the
> Kings of old could not imagine.
>
> envy is not a beautiful thing. Get over it. (or take a night school
> MBA and make some money - your choice!)
What envy is that?
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 00:11:39
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <13bvk5rgu77lq47@corp.supernews.com>,
> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>> Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>>>> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K
>>>> a year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that to a
>>>> family practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education
>>>> and student loans making $140K.
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>> Is that longshoreman thing common? And does the job involve
>>> personal danger?
>> Dunno about $300k. Just saw a report on LA Port where nearly a
>> half-million jobs at over $50K are directly supported by the port
>> operations.
>
> Remembering that the average wage has been flat to declining since 1970,
> when corrected for inflation, that's the equivalent of a $9,311 wage in
> 1970. According to federal government figures, the median income in
> 1970 was $9,116. So today's $50K per year port worker is just barely
> better off than the average American in 1970. Woo-hoo. I am worse off
> than the average 1970 American, making under $45K.
>
> It's interesting that we can, as a people, lose ground over a 35+ year
> period and yet have elected officials of both major political parties
> extolling our "prosperity." How is lower income and higher debt more
> prosperous? The top end of the income spectrum is much more prosperous,
> rivaling Croesus in many cases in greed, ambition and exploitive
> tendencies. Corporate profits are up but ain't being shared with the
> people who make those profits possible.
>
> Between 2001 and 2004, during an "economic recovery" no less, median
> income in the US for people under the age of 45 fell by 9% and was lower
> than in 1970: 20% less for those under 35 and 11% less for those under
> 45. The percentage of Americans below the poverty line increased each
> year in that same period. According to government figures a higher
> percentage of the economic gains during the recovery went to corporate
> profits, and a smaller percentage to the lower and middle classes, than
> during any other recovery since WWII.
>
> By comparison, the average cost of a home has increased at a rate three
> times that of inflation since 1970. Any surprise that subprime
> mortgages are a problem?
>
> When I was a kid, one working parent was the norm and sufficient to
> raise a family and own a nice home in the 'burbs of Chicago. Now two
> working parents can't pay the mortgage. Seems like we have us an
> anti-family values situation.
To what Tim has written above should be added that tuition at public
universities has increased greatly (relative to inflation) over that
time, due to funding cuts, while student aid has decreased. The effect
is that students from non-wealthy families graduate with several years
of discretionary income in debt, or they work part-time at low wage
service jobs while in school, delaying their graduation by several
years. Either case puts them far behind those from the upper middle
class and upper classes.
The "American Dream" of advancement through hard work and ability is all
but dead.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 22:19:57
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
>> In article <13bvk5rgu77lq47@corp.supernews.com>,
>> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>>> Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>>>>> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K
>>>>> a year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that to a
>>>>> family practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education
>>>>> and student loans making $140K.
>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>> Is that longshoreman thing common? And does the job involve
>>>> personal danger?
>>> Dunno about $300k. Just saw a report on LA Port where nearly a
>>> half-million jobs at over $50K are directly supported by the port
>>> operations.
>>
>> Remembering that the average wage has been flat to declining since
>> 1970, when corrected for inflation, that's the equivalent of a
>> $9,311 wage in 1970. According to federal government figures, the
>> median income in 1970 was $9,116. So today's $50K per year port
>> worker is just barely better off than the average American in 1970.
>> Woo-hoo. I am worse off than the average 1970 American, making
>> under $45K. It's interesting that we can, as a people, lose ground over a
>> 35+
>> year period and yet have elected officials of both major political
>> parties extolling our "prosperity." How is lower income and higher
>> debt more prosperous? The top end of the income spectrum is much
>> more prosperous, rivaling Croesus in many cases in greed, ambition
>> and exploitive tendencies. Corporate profits are up but ain't being
>> shared with the people who make those profits possible.
>>
>> Between 2001 and 2004, during an "economic recovery" no less, median
>> income in the US for people under the age of 45 fell by 9% and was
>> lower than in 1970: 20% less for those under 35 and 11% less for
>> those under 45. The percentage of Americans below the poverty line
>> increased
>> each year in that same period. According to government figures a
>> higher percentage of the economic gains during the recovery went to
>> corporate profits, and a smaller percentage to the lower and middle
>> classes, than during any other recovery since WWII.
>>
>> By comparison, the average cost of a home has increased at a rate
>> three times that of inflation since 1970. Any surprise that subprime
>> mortgages are a problem?
>>
>> When I was a kid, one working parent was the norm and sufficient to
>> raise a family and own a nice home in the 'burbs of Chicago. Now two
>> working parents can't pay the mortgage. Seems like we have us an
>> anti-family values situation.
>
> To what Tim has written above should be added that tuition at public
> universities has increased greatly (relative to inflation) over that
> time, due to funding cuts, while student aid has decreased. The effect
> is that students from non-wealthy families graduate with several years
> of discretionary income in debt, or they work part-time at low wage
> service jobs while in school, delaying their graduation by several
> years. Either case puts them far behind those from the upper middle
> class and upper classes.
>
> The "American Dream" of advancement through hard work and ability is
> all but dead.
Wow. No wonder you guys are so miserable.
Bill "good thing the masses don't think that way" S.
--
"If you don't like it, turn off your station." -- Mike Tyson
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 09:28:42
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article <46bfe9ff$0$29648$4c368faf@roadrunner.com >,
"Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me > wrote:
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> > Tim McNamara wrote:
> >> In article <13bvk5rgu77lq47@corp.supernews.com>,
> >> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> >>>>> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K
> >>>>> a year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that to a
> >>>>> family practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education
> >>>>> and student loans making $140K.
> >>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >>>> Is that longshoreman thing common? And does the job involve
> >>>> personal danger?
> >>> Dunno about $300k. Just saw a report on LA Port where nearly a
> >>> half-million jobs at over $50K are directly supported by the port
> >>> operations.
> >>
> >> Remembering that the average wage has been flat to declining since
> >> 1970, when corrected for inflation, that's the equivalent of a
> >> $9,311 wage in 1970. According to federal government figures, the
> >> median income in 1970 was $9,116. So today's $50K per year port
> >> worker is just barely better off than the average American in 1970.
> >> Woo-hoo. I am worse off than the average 1970 American, making
> >> under $45K. It's interesting that we can, as a people, lose ground over a
> >> 35+
> >> year period and yet have elected officials of both major political
> >> parties extolling our "prosperity." How is lower income and higher
> >> debt more prosperous? The top end of the income spectrum is much
> >> more prosperous, rivaling Croesus in many cases in greed, ambition
> >> and exploitive tendencies. Corporate profits are up but ain't being
> >> shared with the people who make those profits possible.
> >>
> >> Between 2001 and 2004, during an "economic recovery" no less, median
> >> income in the US for people under the age of 45 fell by 9% and was
> >> lower than in 1970: 20% less for those under 35 and 11% less for
> >> those under 45. The percentage of Americans below the poverty line
> >> increased
> >> each year in that same period. According to government figures a
> >> higher percentage of the economic gains during the recovery went to
> >> corporate profits, and a smaller percentage to the lower and middle
> >> classes, than during any other recovery since WWII.
> >>
> >> By comparison, the average cost of a home has increased at a rate
> >> three times that of inflation since 1970. Any surprise that subprime
> >> mortgages are a problem?
> >>
> >> When I was a kid, one working parent was the norm and sufficient to
> >> raise a family and own a nice home in the 'burbs of Chicago. Now two
> >> working parents can't pay the mortgage. Seems like we have us an
> >> anti-family values situation.
> >
> > To what Tim has written above should be added that tuition at public
> > universities has increased greatly (relative to inflation) over that
> > time, due to funding cuts, while student aid has decreased. The effect
> > is that students from non-wealthy families graduate with several years
> > of discretionary income in debt, or they work part-time at low wage
> > service jobs while in school, delaying their graduation by several
> > years. Either case puts them far behind those from the upper middle
> > class and upper classes.
> >
> > The "American Dream" of advancement through hard work and ability is
> > all but dead.
>
> Wow. No wonder you guys are so miserable.
>
> Bill "good thing the masses don't think that way" S.
Bill, that was the pathetically funniest thing you have written. Ever.
The masses have cottoned on to reality, it's only the dittoheads
continuing to live the Rovian delusion. And even he's decided to walk
before they make him run.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 08:05:56
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <46bfe9ff$0$29648$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me> wrote:
>
>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>> In article <13bvk5rgu77lq47@corp.supernews.com>,
>>>> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to
>>>>>>> $300K a year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that
>>>>>>> to a family practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS
>>>>>>> education and student loans making $140K.
>>>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>>>> Is that longshoreman thing common? And does the job involve
>>>>>> personal danger?
>>>>> Dunno about $300k. Just saw a report on LA Port where nearly a
>>>>> half-million jobs at over $50K are directly supported by the port
>>>>> operations.
>>>>
>>>> Remembering that the average wage has been flat to declining since
>>>> 1970, when corrected for inflation, that's the equivalent of a
>>>> $9,311 wage in 1970. According to federal government figures, the
>>>> median income in 1970 was $9,116. So today's $50K per year port
>>>> worker is just barely better off than the average American in 1970.
>>>> Woo-hoo. I am worse off than the average 1970 American, making
>>>> under $45K. It's interesting that we can, as a people, lose ground
>>>> over a 35+
>>>> year period and yet have elected officials of both major political
>>>> parties extolling our "prosperity." How is lower income and higher
>>>> debt more prosperous? The top end of the income spectrum is much
>>>> more prosperous, rivaling Croesus in many cases in greed, ambition
>>>> and exploitive tendencies. Corporate profits are up but ain't
>>>> being shared with the people who make those profits possible.
>>>>
>>>> Between 2001 and 2004, during an "economic recovery" no less,
>>>> median income in the US for people under the age of 45 fell by 9%
>>>> and was
>>>> lower than in 1970: 20% less for those under 35 and 11% less for
>>>> those under 45. The percentage of Americans below the poverty line
>>>> increased
>>>> each year in that same period. According to government figures a
>>>> higher percentage of the economic gains during the recovery went to
>>>> corporate profits, and a smaller percentage to the lower and middle
>>>> classes, than during any other recovery since WWII.
>>>>
>>>> By comparison, the average cost of a home has increased at a rate
>>>> three times that of inflation since 1970. Any surprise that
>>>> subprime mortgages are a problem?
>>>>
>>>> When I was a kid, one working parent was the norm and sufficient to
>>>> raise a family and own a nice home in the 'burbs of Chicago. Now
>>>> two working parents can't pay the mortgage. Seems like we have us
>>>> an anti-family values situation.
>>>
>>> To what Tim has written above should be added that tuition at public
>>> universities has increased greatly (relative to inflation) over that
>>> time, due to funding cuts, while student aid has decreased. The
>>> effect is that students from non-wealthy families graduate with
>>> several years of discretionary income in debt, or they work
>>> part-time at low wage service jobs while in school, delaying their
>>> graduation by several years. Either case puts them far behind those
>>> from the upper middle class and upper classes.
>>>
>>> The "American Dream" of advancement through hard work and ability is
>>> all but dead.
>>
>> Wow. No wonder you guys are so miserable.
>>
>> Bill "good thing the masses don't think that way" S.
>
> Bill, that was the pathetically funniest thing you have written.
> Ever. The masses have cottoned on to reality, it's only the dittoheads
> continuing to live the Rovian delusion. And even he's decided to walk
> before they make him run.
So now Carl Rove controls Consumer Confidence studies! (Mostly done by
liberal arts institutions, of course.)
Good Stuff! LOL
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 20:37:53
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Bill Sornson wrote:
> ...
> So now Carl Rove controls Consumer Confidence studies! (Mostly done by
> liberal arts institutions, of course.)
>
> Good Stuff! LOL
Who is "Carl Rove"? Some distant relative of Karl Rove?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 16:46:10
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article <46c07355$0$16576$4c368faf@roadrunner.com >,
"Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me > wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <46bfe9ff$0$29648$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, "Bill
> > Sornson" <askme@ask.me> wrote:
> >
> >> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> >>> Tim McNamara wrote:
> >>>> In article <13bvk5rgu77lq47@corp.supernews.com>,
> >>>> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to
> >>>>>>> $300K a year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that
> >>>>>>> to a family practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS
> >>>>>>> education and student loans making $140K.
> >>>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >>>>>> Is that longshoreman thing common? And does the job involve
> >>>>>> personal danger?
> >>>>> Dunno about $300k. Just saw a report on LA Port where nearly a
> >>>>> half-million jobs at over $50K are directly supported by the
> >>>>> port operations.
> >>>>
> >>>> Remembering that the average wage has been flat to declining
> >>>> since 1970, when corrected for inflation, that's the equivalent
> >>>> of a $9,311 wage in 1970. According to federal government
> >>>> figures, the median income in 1970 was $9,116. So today's $50K
> >>>> per year port worker is just barely better off than the average
> >>>> American in 1970. Woo-hoo. I am worse off than the average 1970
> >>>> American, making under $45K. It's interesting that we can, as a
> >>>> people, lose ground over a 35+ year period and yet have elected
> >>>> officials of both major political parties extolling our
> >>>> "prosperity." How is lower income and higher debt more
> >>>> prosperous? The top end of the income spectrum is much more
> >>>> prosperous, rivaling Croesus in many cases in greed, ambition
> >>>> and exploitive tendencies. Corporate profits are up but ain't
> >>>> being shared with the people who make those profits possible.
> >>>>
> >>>> Between 2001 and 2004, during an "economic recovery" no less,
> >>>> median income in the US for people under the age of 45 fell by
> >>>> 9% and was lower than in 1970: 20% less for those under 35 and
> >>>> 11% less for those under 45. The percentage of Americans below
> >>>> the poverty line increased each year in that same period.
> >>>> According to government figures a higher percentage of the
> >>>> economic gains during the recovery went to corporate profits,
> >>>> and a smaller percentage to the lower and middle classes, than
> >>>> during any other recovery since WWII.
> >>>>
> >>>> By comparison, the average cost of a home has increased at a
> >>>> rate three times that of inflation since 1970. Any surprise
> >>>> that subprime mortgages are a problem?
> >>>>
> >>>> When I was a kid, one working parent was the norm and sufficient
> >>>> to raise a family and own a nice home in the 'burbs of Chicago.
> >>>> Now two working parents can't pay the mortgage. Seems like we
> >>>> have us an anti-family values situation.
> >>>
> >>> To what Tim has written above should be added that tuition at
> >>> public universities has increased greatly (relative to inflation)
> >>> over that time, due to funding cuts, while student aid has
> >>> decreased. The effect is that students from non-wealthy families
> >>> graduate with several years of discretionary income in debt, or
> >>> they work part-time at low wage service jobs while in school,
> >>> delaying their graduation by several years. Either case puts them
> >>> far behind those from the upper middle class and upper classes.
> >>>
> >>> The "American Dream" of advancement through hard work and ability
> >>> is all but dead.
> >>
> >> Wow. No wonder you guys are so miserable.
> >>
> >> Bill "good thing the masses don't think that way" S.
> >
> > Bill, that was the pathetically funniest thing you have written.
> > Ever. The masses have cottoned on to reality, it's only the
> > dittoheads continuing to live the Rovian delusion. And even he's
> > decided to walk before they make him run.
>
> So now Carl Rove controls Consumer Confidence studies! (Mostly done
> by liberal arts institutions, of course.)
>
> Good Stuff! LOL
Oblique yet bizarre with fizzy twinkles, a fine vintage Sornson.
Slainte!
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 20:47:26
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 16:46:10 -0500, Tim McNamara
<timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote:
>In article <46c07355$0$16576$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me> wrote:
>
>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>> > In article <46bfe9ff$0$29648$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, "Bill
>> > Sornson" <askme@ask.me> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> >>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>> >>>> In article <13bvk5rgu77lq47@corp.supernews.com>,
>> >>>> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to
>> >>>>>>> $300K a year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that
>> >>>>>>> to a family practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS
>> >>>>>>> education and student loans making $140K.
>> >>>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> >>>>>> Is that longshoreman thing common? And does the job involve
>> >>>>>> personal danger?
>> >>>>> Dunno about $300k. Just saw a report on LA Port where nearly a
>> >>>>> half-million jobs at over $50K are directly supported by the
>> >>>>> port operations.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Remembering that the average wage has been flat to declining
>> >>>> since 1970, when corrected for inflation, that's the equivalent
>> >>>> of a $9,311 wage in 1970. According to federal government
>> >>>> figures, the median income in 1970 was $9,116. So today's $50K
>> >>>> per year port worker is just barely better off than the average
>> >>>> American in 1970. Woo-hoo. I am worse off than the average 1970
>> >>>> American, making under $45K. It's interesting that we can, as a
>> >>>> people, lose ground over a 35+ year period and yet have elected
>> >>>> officials of both major political parties extolling our
>> >>>> "prosperity." How is lower income and higher debt more
>> >>>> prosperous? The top end of the income spectrum is much more
>> >>>> prosperous, rivaling Croesus in many cases in greed, ambition
>> >>>> and exploitive tendencies. Corporate profits are up but ain't
>> >>>> being shared with the people who make those profits possible.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Between 2001 and 2004, during an "economic recovery" no less,
>> >>>> median income in the US for people under the age of 45 fell by
>> >>>> 9% and was lower than in 1970: 20% less for those under 35 and
>> >>>> 11% less for those under 45. The percentage of Americans below
>> >>>> the poverty line increased each year in that same period.
>> >>>> According to government figures a higher percentage of the
>> >>>> economic gains during the recovery went to corporate profits,
>> >>>> and a smaller percentage to the lower and middle classes, than
>> >>>> during any other recovery since WWII.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> By comparison, the average cost of a home has increased at a
>> >>>> rate three times that of inflation since 1970. Any surprise
>> >>>> that subprime mortgages are a problem?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> When I was a kid, one working parent was the norm and sufficient
>> >>>> to raise a family and own a nice home in the 'burbs of Chicago.
>> >>>> Now two working parents can't pay the mortgage. Seems like we
>> >>>> have us an anti-family values situation.
>> >>>
>> >>> To what Tim has written above should be added that tuition at
>> >>> public universities has increased greatly (relative to inflation)
>> >>> over that time, due to funding cuts, while student aid has
>> >>> decreased. The effect is that students from non-wealthy families
>> >>> graduate with several years of discretionary income in debt, or
>> >>> they work part-time at low wage service jobs while in school,
>> >>> delaying their graduation by several years. Either case puts them
>> >>> far behind those from the upper middle class and upper classes.
>> >>>
>> >>> The "American Dream" of advancement through hard work and ability
>> >>> is all but dead.
>> >>
>> >> Wow. No wonder you guys are so miserable.
>> >>
>> >> Bill "good thing the masses don't think that way" S.
>> >
>> > Bill, that was the pathetically funniest thing you have written.
>> > Ever. The masses have cottoned on to reality, it's only the
>> > dittoheads continuing to live the Rovian delusion. And even he's
>> > decided to walk before they make him run.
>>
>> So now Carl Rove controls Consumer Confidence studies! (Mostly done
>> by liberal arts institutions, of course.)
>>
>> Good Stuff! LOL
>
>Oblique yet bizarre with fizzy twinkles, a fine vintage Sornson.
>Slainte!
I make many, many spelling errors myself, largely from being lazy and
sloppy.
But it's interesting to notice Sorni's spelling error -- he seems to
misspell names in the news,often with simple phonetic errors or
substitions (Carl vs Karl, for example). I think that he doesn't
actually read the news but only hears it on the radio.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 00:26:40
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Bill Sornson wrote:
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>> In article <13bvk5rgu77lq47@corp.supernews.com>,
>>> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>>>>>> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to $300K
>>>>>> a year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that to a
>>>>>> family practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS education
>>>>>> and student loans making $140K.
>>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>>> Is that longshoreman thing common? And does the job involve
>>>>> personal danger?
>>>> Dunno about $300k. Just saw a report on LA Port where nearly a
>>>> half-million jobs at over $50K are directly supported by the port
>>>> operations.
>>> Remembering that the average wage has been flat to declining since
>>> 1970, when corrected for inflation, that's the equivalent of a
>>> $9,311 wage in 1970. According to federal government figures, the
>>> median income in 1970 was $9,116. So today's $50K per year port
>>> worker is just barely better off than the average American in 1970.
>>> Woo-hoo. I am worse off than the average 1970 American, making
>>> under $45K. It's interesting that we can, as a people, lose ground over a
>>> 35+
>>> year period and yet have elected officials of both major political
>>> parties extolling our "prosperity." How is lower income and higher
>>> debt more prosperous? The top end of the income spectrum is much
>>> more prosperous, rivaling Croesus in many cases in greed, ambition
>>> and exploitive tendencies. Corporate profits are up but ain't being
>>> shared with the people who make those profits possible.
>>>
>>> Between 2001 and 2004, during an "economic recovery" no less, median
>>> income in the US for people under the age of 45 fell by 9% and was
>>> lower than in 1970: 20% less for those under 35 and 11% less for
>>> those under 45. The percentage of Americans below the poverty line
>>> increased
>>> each year in that same period. According to government figures a
>>> higher percentage of the economic gains during the recovery went to
>>> corporate profits, and a smaller percentage to the lower and middle
>>> classes, than during any other recovery since WWII.
>>>
>>> By comparison, the average cost of a home has increased at a rate
>>> three times that of inflation since 1970. Any surprise that subprime
>>> mortgages are a problem?
>>>
>>> When I was a kid, one working parent was the norm and sufficient to
>>> raise a family and own a nice home in the 'burbs of Chicago. Now two
>>> working parents can't pay the mortgage. Seems like we have us an
>>> anti-family values situation.
>> To what Tim has written above should be added that tuition at public
>> universities has increased greatly (relative to inflation) over that
>> time, due to funding cuts, while student aid has decreased. The effect
>> is that students from non-wealthy families graduate with several years
>> of discretionary income in debt, or they work part-time at low wage
>> service jobs while in school, delaying their graduation by several
>> years. Either case puts them far behind those from the upper middle
>> class and upper classes.
>>
>> The "American Dream" of advancement through hard work and ability is
>> all but dead.
>
> Wow. No wonder you guys are so miserable.
Some of were born too late to take advantage of the progressive polices
put in place by administrations from F. Roosevelt to Eisenhower, and had
to deal with the regressive policies of "Saint Ronny" to Bush the Lesser.
> Bill "good thing the masses don't think that way" S.
The masses are fed a diet of propaganda in both the public schools and
from the corporate media.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition!"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 23:36:06
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> Bill Sornson wrote:
>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>> In article <13bvk5rgu77lq47@corp.supernews.com>,
>>>> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to
>>>>>>> $300K a year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that
>>>>>>> to a family practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS
>>>>>>> education and student loans making $140K.
>>>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>>>> Is that longshoreman thing common? And does the job involve
>>>>>> personal danger?
>>>>> Dunno about $300k. Just saw a report on LA Port where nearly a
>>>>> half-million jobs at over $50K are directly supported by the port
>>>>> operations.
>>>> Remembering that the average wage has been flat to declining since
>>>> 1970, when corrected for inflation, that's the equivalent of a
>>>> $9,311 wage in 1970. According to federal government figures, the
>>>> median income in 1970 was $9,116. So today's $50K per year port
>>>> worker is just barely better off than the average American in 1970.
>>>> Woo-hoo. I am worse off than the average 1970 American, making
>>>> under $45K. It's interesting that we can, as a people, lose ground
>>>> over a 35+
>>>> year period and yet have elected officials of both major political
>>>> parties extolling our "prosperity." How is lower income and higher
>>>> debt more prosperous? The top end of the income spectrum is much
>>>> more prosperous, rivaling Croesus in many cases in greed, ambition
>>>> and exploitive tendencies. Corporate profits are up but ain't
>>>> being shared with the people who make those profits possible.
>>>>
>>>> Between 2001 and 2004, during an "economic recovery" no less,
>>>> median income in the US for people under the age of 45 fell by 9%
>>>> and was lower than in 1970: 20% less for those under 35 and 11% less
>>>> for
>>>> those under 45. The percentage of Americans below the poverty line
>>>> increased
>>>> each year in that same period. According to government figures a
>>>> higher percentage of the economic gains during the recovery went to
>>>> corporate profits, and a smaller percentage to the lower and middle
>>>> classes, than during any other recovery since WWII.
>>>>
>>>> By comparison, the average cost of a home has increased at a rate
>>>> three times that of inflation since 1970. Any surprise that
>>>> subprime mortgages are a problem?
>>>>
>>>> When I was a kid, one working parent was the norm and sufficient to
>>>> raise a family and own a nice home in the 'burbs of Chicago. Now
>>>> two working parents can't pay the mortgage. Seems like we have us
>>>> an anti-family values situation.
>>> To what Tim has written above should be added that tuition at public
>>> universities has increased greatly (relative to inflation) over that
>>> time, due to funding cuts, while student aid has decreased. The
>>> effect is that students from non-wealthy families graduate with
>>> several years of discretionary income in debt, or they work
>>> part-time at low wage service jobs while in school, delaying their
>>> graduation by several years. Either case puts them far behind those
>>> from the upper middle class and upper classes.
>>>
>>> The "American Dream" of advancement through hard work and ability is
>>> all but dead.
>>
>> Wow. No wonder you guys are so miserable.
>
> Some of were born too late to take advantage of the progressive
> polices put in place by administrations from F. Roosevelt to
> Eisenhower, and had to deal with the regressive policies of "Saint
> Ronny" to Bush the Lesser.
Jesus, man, just get a big fat 'V' for Victim tattooed on your foresk--- er,
head.
>> Bill "good thing the masses don't think that way" S.
>
> The masses are fed a diet of propaganda in both the public schools and
> from the corporate media.
Yeah, the poor slobs think they're employed in record numbers and are
optimistic about the future. What idiots! (All they're missing is their
'V' tattoes! LOL )
--
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> "I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition!"
--
The weaker the argument, the stronger the words.
--American Proverb
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 05:46:20
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Bill Sornson wrote:
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>> In article <13bvk5rgu77lq47@corp.supernews.com>,
>>>>> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> There are grade school educated longshoremen making close to
>>>>>>>> $300K a year in LA (with pay guarantees and OT). Compare that
>>>>>>>> to a family practice physician with 10-12 years of post HS
>>>>>>>> education and student loans making $140K.
>>>>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>>>>> Is that longshoreman thing common? And does the job involve
>>>>>>> personal danger?
>>>>>> Dunno about $300k. Just saw a report on LA Port where nearly a
>>>>>> half-million jobs at over $50K are directly supported by the port
>>>>>> operations.
>>>>> Remembering that the average wage has been flat to declining since
>>>>> 1970, when corrected for inflation, that's the equivalent of a
>>>>> $9,311 wage in 1970. According to federal government figures, the
>>>>> median income in 1970 was $9,116. So today's $50K per year port
>>>>> worker is just barely better off than the average American in 1970.
>>>>> Woo-hoo. I am worse off than the average 1970 American, making
>>>>> under $45K. It's interesting that we can, as a people, lose ground
>>>>> over a 35+
>>>>> year period and yet have elected officials of both major political
>>>>> parties extolling our "prosperity." How is lower income and higher
>>>>> debt more prosperous? The top end of the income spectrum is much
>>>>> more prosperous, rivaling Croesus in many cases in greed, ambition
>>>>> and exploitive tendencies. Corporate profits are up but ain't
>>>>> being shared with the people who make those profits possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Between 2001 and 2004, during an "economic recovery" no less,
>>>>> median income in the US for people under the age of 45 fell by 9%
>>>>> and was lower than in 1970: 20% less for those under 35 and 11% less
>>>>> for
>>>>> those under 45. The percentage of Americans below the poverty line
>>>>> increased
>>>>> each year in that same period. According to government figures a
>>>>> higher percentage of the economic gains during the recovery went to
>>>>> corporate profits, and a smaller percentage to the lower and middle
>>>>> classes, than during any other recovery since WWII.
>>>>>
>>>>> By comparison, the average cost of a home has increased at a rate
>>>>> three times that of inflation since 1970. Any surprise that
>>>>> subprime mortgages are a problem?
>>>>>
>>>>> When I was a kid, one working parent was the norm and sufficient to
>>>>> raise a family and own a nice home in the 'burbs of Chicago. Now
>>>>> two working parents can't pay the mortgage. Seems like we have us
>>>>> an anti-family values situation.
>>>> To what Tim has written above should be added that tuition at public
>>>> universities has increased greatly (relative to inflation) over that
>>>> time, due to funding cuts, while student aid has decreased. The
>>>> effect is that students from non-wealthy families graduate with
>>>> several years of discretionary income in debt, or they work
>>>> part-time at low wage service jobs while in school, delaying their
>>>> graduation by several years. Either case puts them far behind those
>>>> from the upper middle class and upper classes.
>>>>
>>>> The "American Dream" of advancement through hard work and ability is
>>>> all but dead.
>>> Wow. No wonder you guys are so miserable.
>> Some of were born too late to take advantage of the progressive
>> polices put in place by administrations from F. Roosevelt to
>> Eisenhower, and had to deal with the regressive policies of "Saint
>> Ronny" to Bush the Lesser.
>
> Jesus, man, just get a big fat 'V' for Victim tattooed on your foresk--- er,
> head.
>
>>> Bill "good thing the masses don't think that way" S.
>> The masses are fed a diet of propaganda in both the public schools and
>> from the corporate media.
>
> Yeah, the poor slobs think they're employed in record numbers and are
> optimistic about the future. What idiots! (All they're missing is their
> 'V' tattoes! LOL )
So Sorni, what do you do, and are you overpaid in doing it, since you
believe all things are hunky-dory (or at least would be if Congress has
535 Republicans in it)?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 22:22:10
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Tom Sherman wrote:
>
> Bill Sornson wrote:
> >
> > Tim McNamara wrote:
> >>
> >> RonSonic wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Unions are a very nice part of the free market.
>
> >> Yup. They are what created most of the American middle class.
>
> > And then nearly destroyed it.
>
> Only in the world of right-wing talk radio.
Yeah, funny how the decline of the middle class has coincided with the
decline of the power of unions. That must be because we made the
mistake of not giving the rich and powerful _even more_ power and
riches! After all, they know what's best for all of us.
Chalo
|
| | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 11:18:59
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 14, 10:36 pm, "Tom "Wah! The world owes me a higher wage"
Sherman" <sunsetss0...@invailid.com > wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle - 100% Service and 0% "Attitude" - wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 14, 6:26 pm, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> "John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote in messagenews:v842c3dgb7n8uogjkuqit097spnuscvsuc@4ax.com...
>
> >>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:03:13 -0500, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
> >>>> No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs. You
> >>>> Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs, earned income
> >>>> credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care cash, housing
> >>>> assistance,
> >>>> free gas for cars, etc, etc.
> >>> Rant on please. Rant on.
> >>> I'd love you to use your full name too. Not that anyone here will
> >>> bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
> >>> --
> >>> JT
> >> Why is so important that you know who I am, it wouldn't change either of our
> >> opinions.
>
> > It's some kind of BS agenda here on RBT, perpetrated mainly by Jobst
> > Brandt, with occasional assistance from Sheldon Brown and, of late,
> > Tom Sherman.
>
> >> I could really care less who you are.
>
> > Really, what possible difference could it make?
>
> If you have to ask, you obviously do not get it.
>
>
You're right, I don't "get" how anyone can be such a lameass loser as
you, Tom.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 08:44:15
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 14, 6:52 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0...@invailid.com > wrote:
> Jay Beattie wrote:
> > On Aug 14, 4:24 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> > wrote:
> >> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 20:22:52 -0700, Jay Beattie
>
> >> <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> >>> On Aug 13, 6:30 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:20:52 -0700, Jay Beattie
> >>>> <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Aug 13, 12:26 pm, Andrew Price <ajpr...@free.fr> wrote:
> >>>>>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 01:16:34 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
> >>>>>> <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> is the longshoreman thing common? Are they making $300K year on
> >>>>>>> $30+/hour?
> >>>>>> I doubt it, as there aren't enough hours in a year for them to reach
> >>>>>> $300K at $30 per hour, even working round the clock, 7 days a week...
> >>>>> Seehttp://tinyurl.com/2phjlzSeveralwalking bosses were approaching
> >>>>> $400K. You don't understand wage guarantees. Read the CBA, and it
> >>>>> will become clear how a longshoreman can "work" eight hours in one
> >>>>> hour. -- Jay Beattie.
> >>>> I guess I'll have to look through the 20+ pages of charts to see if it
> >>>> answers the question I asked - is that longshoreman thing common?
> >>> The info is on document page 63
> >> Ten people making $300K or more/year? That's it? And it took asking
> >> twice to get that out of you.
>
> > Is everything a conspiracy to you JT? I never said everybody and
> > their brother was making nearly $300K. I said there were some people
> > who were -- and that was based on my knowledge of particular workers
> > in Long Beach and without the help of the PMA info that I cited. That
> > info shows I was right -- and that info only refers to west coast
> > ports and not NJ, NY and many other huge ports in the east or on the
> > Gulf. You also ignore the dozens of people making well over $200K and
> > nearly $300K (my original statement was "close to" $300K). You only
> > focus on the "over $300K" -- and some "close to" $400K. You also
> > ignore the overall pay scale for bosses and the AVERAGE pay of $210K.
> > That is for doing work that is less hard than being a construction
> > superintendent. Clerks make an average of $163K for doing work that
> > could be handled by a highschooler. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> I used to lift 20 to 25 tons of product in a 12-hour shift for
> $4.90/hour [1][2] with no benefits.
>
> [1] About $7/hour adjusted for inflation.
> [2] Bonus rate for night shift. Day shift was $4.65/hour.
>
I used to get shot at in east San Jose for $2.10 an hour. I also got
covered in blood an shit for that amount -- although it rose slowly to
$3.25 over time. The last $.50 bump came when we unionized. Then the
company went out of business -- for many reasons (mostly because it
could not compete for the new county paramedic contracts). By the
way, my take home pay after unionization was the same as before due to
additional union dues, deductions (uniforms), shift shortening (night
shift cut from 14 to 12 hours), etc. I had the same medical coverage
before and after, although I already had student coverage and never
used my work coverage.-- Jay Beattie.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 20:12:31
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 14, 6:26 pm, "DI" <di9...@cox.net > wrote:
> "John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote in messagenews:v842c3dgb7n8uogjkuqit097spnuscvsuc@4ax.com...
>
> > On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:03:13 -0500, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> >>No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs. You
> >>Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs, earned income
> >>credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care cash, housing
> >>assistance,
> >>free gas for cars, etc, etc.
>
> > Rant on please. Rant on.
>
> > I'd love you to use your full name too. Not that anyone here will
> > bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
>
> > --
> > JT
>
> Why is so important that you know who I am, it wouldn't change either of our
> opinions.
It's some kind of BS agenda here on RBT, perpetrated mainly by Jobst
Brandt, with occasional assistance from Sheldon Brown and, of late,
Tom Sherman.
> I could really care less who you are.
Really, what possible difference could it make?
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 05:49:10
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 20:12:31 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
>On Aug 14, 6:26 pm, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
>> "John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote in messagenews:v842c3dgb7n8uogjkuqit097spnuscvsuc@4ax.com...
>>
>> > On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:03:13 -0500, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>> >>No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs. You
>> >>Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs, earned income
>> >>credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care cash, housing
>> >>assistance,
>> >>free gas for cars, etc, etc.
>>
>> > Rant on please. Rant on.
>>
>> > I'd love you to use your full name too. Not that anyone here will
>> > bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
>>
>> > --
>> > JT
>>
>> Why is so important that you know who I am, it wouldn't change either of our
>> opinions.
>
>It's some kind of BS agenda here on RBT, perpetrated mainly by Jobst
>Brandt, with occasional assistance from Sheldon Brown and, of late,
>Tom Sherman.
>
>> I could really care less who you are.
>
>Really, what possible difference could it make?
It shows a willingness to be taken seriously.
If someone is afraid that there will be offline consequences for
exposing themselves, at a minimum I ask that they say that and at
least articulate those fears. Just being anon for the sake of being
anon, while spouting inanity, is lame and usually shows some sort of
shame or embarrassment.
Ozark, you know, like shame of one's appearance....
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 22:36:29
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Ozark Bicycle - 100% Service and 0% "Attitude" - wrote:
> On Aug 14, 6:26 pm, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
>> "John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote in messagenews:v842c3dgb7n8uogjkuqit097spnuscvsuc@4ax.com...
>>
>>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:03:13 -0500, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>> No one works for the minimum wage, except a few part time jobs. You
>>>> Dems have taken care of that with many welfare programs, earned income
>>>> credit, free cell phones, food stamps, child care cash, housing
>>>> assistance,
>>>> free gas for cars, etc, etc.
>>> Rant on please. Rant on.
>>> I'd love you to use your full name too. Not that anyone here will
>>> bother you offline, but rather to signify pride in your beliefs.
>>> --
>>> JT
>> Why is so important that you know who I am, it wouldn't change either of our
>> opinions.
>
> It's some kind of BS agenda here on RBT, perpetrated mainly by Jobst
> Brandt, with occasional assistance from Sheldon Brown and, of late,
> Tom Sherman.
>
>> I could really care less who you are.
>
> Really, what possible difference could it make?
If you have to ask, you obviously do not get it.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 02:41:31
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 14, 3:38 pm, "DI" <di9...@cox.net > wrote:
>
> I don't think it's being "small minded" to want to have control over your
> own destiny. who would ever want to put their future in the hands of a
> beuracrat, especially when that beuracrat was most likely hired based on
> his social status, and even more so likely graduated at the bottom of his
> class.
>
At least he can probably spell "bureaucrat."
Interestingly, it turns out that there is, in fact, a vast spectrum
and difference between competent and incompetent bureaucrats,
and that we spend a lot of time relying on the competence of
bureaucrats we don't know or never thank; we only notice
bureaucrats when they screw up. Examples of this include
food safety, air and transportation, and of course the response
to Hurricane Katrina, which starred the inadequacy of Michael
"heckuva job" Brown, hired on the basis of his social connections,
but co-featured incompetency stretching up to the highest levels.
Sadly, there were plenty of competent bureaucrats at places like
the hurricane center, but not at the levers of power.
Ben
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 11:21:43
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article
<1187145691.165165.94370@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com >,
"bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org >
wrote:
> On Aug 14, 3:38 pm, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
> >
> > I don't think it's being "small minded" to want to have control over your
> > own destiny. who would ever want to put their future in the hands of a
> > beuracrat, especially when that beuracrat was most likely hired based on
> > his social status, and even more so likely graduated at the bottom of his
> > class.
> >
>
> At least he can probably spell "bureaucrat."
>
> Interestingly, it turns out that there is, in fact, a vast spectrum
> and difference between competent and incompetent bureaucrats,
> and that we spend a lot of time relying on the competence of
> bureaucrats we don't know or never thank; we only notice
> bureaucrats when they screw up. Examples of this include
> food safety, air and transportation, and of course the response
> to Hurricane Katrina, which starred the inadequacy of Michael
> "heckuva job" Brown, hired on the basis of his social connections,
> but co-featured incompetency stretching up to the highest levels.
> Sadly, there were plenty of competent bureaucrats at places like
> the hurricane center, but not at the levers of power.
Since you want to drag that hurricane into it, it is
not the federal government but the intransigence and
corruption of the local government refusing to build up
levees that could resist a storm surge, choosing
instead to pocket federal money contributed to build
the levees, that is the scandal here. Everybody blames
the federal government. Anybody would look bad trying
to clean that up, particularly given the apathy,
intransigence and corruption of the New Orleans
governments/infrastructure. I thought we were in favor
of state's rights. What exactly is the federal
governments interest in humping the mud out of New
Orleans? What is the proper response to endemic rioting
and lawlessness? Federal troops shooting down citizens?
(registered voters)
As I am now posting to this thread, I agree that there
are competent bureaucrats, and since the federal
government gets first choice out of the best
universities, they may have a higher fraction of
competence than many other jurisdictions.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 15:35:16
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <1187145691.165165.94370@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On Aug 14, 3:38 pm, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't think it's being "small minded" to want to have control
>>> over your own destiny. who would ever want to put their future in
>>> the hands of a beuracrat, especially when that beuracrat was most
>>> likely hired based on his social status, and even more so likely
>>> graduated at the bottom of his class.
>>>
>>
>> At least he can probably spell "bureaucrat."
>>
>> Interestingly, it turns out that there is, in fact, a vast spectrum
>> and difference between competent and incompetent bureaucrats,
>> and that we spend a lot of time relying on the competence of
>> bureaucrats we don't know or never thank; we only notice
>> bureaucrats when they screw up. Examples of this include
>> food safety, air and transportation, and of course the response
>> to Hurricane Katrina, which starred the inadequacy of Michael
>> "heckuva job" Brown, hired on the basis of his social connections,
>> but co-featured incompetency stretching up to the highest levels.
>> Sadly, there were plenty of competent bureaucrats at places like
>> the hurricane center, but not at the levers of power.
>
> Since you want to drag that hurricane into it, it is
> not the federal government but the intransigence and
> corruption of the local government refusing to build up
> levees that could resist a storm surge, choosing
> instead to pocket federal money contributed to build
> the levees, that is the scandal here. Everybody blames
> the federal government. Anybody would look bad trying
> to clean that up, particularly given the apathy,
> intransigence and corruption of the New Orleans
> governments/infrastructure. I thought we were in favor
> of state's rights. What exactly is the federal
> governments interest in humping the mud out of New
> Orleans? What is the proper response to endemic rioting
> and lawlessness? Federal troops shooting down citizens?
> (registered voters)
HOLY CRAP -- what got into Press today?!? LOL Best post of yours...ever!
> As I am now posting to this thread, I agree that there
> are competent bureaucrats, and since the federal
> government gets first choice out of the best
> universities, they may have a higher fraction of
> competence than many other jurisdictions.
The very same FEMA -- yes, with Brownie in charge -- had done an incredible
job on an even bigger hurricane in Florida some time before Katrina.
Hmmm... what was different there?
Now, all this time later -- with billions of dollars spent -- New Orleans
and much of LA is still a complete mess, while neighboring states have
cleaned up and moved on. What's different there?
Bill "you can lead a horse to water..." S.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 20:36:29
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Bill Sornson wrote:
> Michael Press wrote:
>> In article
>> <1187145691.165165.94370@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
>> "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Aug 14, 3:38 pm, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>> I don't think it's being "small minded" to want to have control
>>>> over your own destiny. who would ever want to put their future in
>>>> the hands of a beuracrat, especially when that beuracrat was most
>>>> likely hired based on his social status, and even more so likely
>>>> graduated at the bottom of his class.
>>>>
>>> At least he can probably spell "bureaucrat."
>>>
>>> Interestingly, it turns out that there is, in fact, a vast spectrum
>>> and difference between competent and incompetent bureaucrats,
>>> and that we spend a lot of time relying on the competence of
>>> bureaucrats we don't know or never thank; we only notice
>>> bureaucrats when they screw up. Examples of this include
>>> food safety, air and transportation, and of course the response
>>> to Hurricane Katrina, which starred the inadequacy of Michael
>>> "heckuva job" Brown, hired on the basis of his social connections,
>>> but co-featured incompetency stretching up to the highest levels.
>>> Sadly, there were plenty of competent bureaucrats at places like
>>> the hurricane center, but not at the levers of power.
>> Since you want to drag that hurricane into it, it is
>> not the federal government but the intransigence and
>> corruption of the local government refusing to build up
>> levees that could resist a storm surge, choosing
>> instead to pocket federal money contributed to build
>> the levees, that is the scandal here. Everybody blames
>> the federal government. Anybody would look bad trying
>> to clean that up, particularly given the apathy,
>> intransigence and corruption of the New Orleans
>> governments/infrastructure. I thought we were in favor
>> of state's rights. What exactly is the federal
>> governments interest in humping the mud out of New
>> Orleans? What is the proper response to endemic rioting
>> and lawlessness? Federal troops shooting down citizens?
>> (registered voters)
>
> HOLY CRAP -- what got into Press today?!? LOL Best post of yours...ever!
>
>> As I am now posting to this thread, I agree that there
>> are competent bureaucrats, and since the federal
>> government gets first choice out of the best
>> universities, they may have a higher fraction of
>> competence than many other jurisdictions.
>
> The very same FEMA -- yes, with Brownie in charge -- had done an incredible
> job on an even bigger hurricane in Florida some time before Katrina.
> Hmmm... what was different there?
Bush needed votes from Florida.
> Now, all this time later -- with billions of dollars spent -- New Orleans
> and much of LA is still a complete mess, while neighboring states have
> cleaned up and moved on. What's different there?
No one in the government gives a damn about black people.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 19:38:25
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> Bill Sornson wrote:
>> Michael Press wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <1187145691.165165.94370@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
>>> "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Aug 14, 3:38 pm, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>> I don't think it's being "small minded" to want to have control
>>>>> over your own destiny. who would ever want to put their future in
>>>>> the hands of a beuracrat, especially when that beuracrat was most
>>>>> likely hired based on his social status, and even more so likely
>>>>> graduated at the bottom of his class.
>>>>>
>>>> At least he can probably spell "bureaucrat."
>>>>
>>>> Interestingly, it turns out that there is, in fact, a vast spectrum
>>>> and difference between competent and incompetent bureaucrats,
>>>> and that we spend a lot of time relying on the competence of
>>>> bureaucrats we don't know or never thank; we only notice
>>>> bureaucrats when they screw up. Examples of this include
>>>> food safety, air and transportation, and of course the response
>>>> to Hurricane Katrina, which starred the inadequacy of Michael
>>>> "heckuva job" Brown, hired on the basis of his social connections,
>>>> but co-featured incompetency stretching up to the highest levels.
>>>> Sadly, there were plenty of competent bureaucrats at places like
>>>> the hurricane center, but not at the levers of power.
>>> Since you want to drag that hurricane into it, it is
>>> not the federal government but the intransigence and
>>> corruption of the local government refusing to build up
>>> levees that could resist a storm surge, choosing
>>> instead to pocket federal money contributed to build
>>> the levees, that is the scandal here. Everybody blames
>>> the federal government. Anybody would look bad trying
>>> to clean that up, particularly given the apathy,
>>> intransigence and corruption of the New Orleans
>>> governments/infrastructure. I thought we were in favor
>>> of state's rights. What exactly is the federal
>>> governments interest in humping the mud out of New
>>> Orleans? What is the proper response to endemic rioting
>>> and lawlessness? Federal troops shooting down citizens?
>>> (registered voters)
>>
>> HOLY CRAP -- what got into Press today?!? LOL Best post of
>> yours...ever!
>>> As I am now posting to this thread, I agree that there
>>> are competent bureaucrats, and since the federal
>>> government gets first choice out of the best
>>> universities, they may have a higher fraction of
>>> competence than many other jurisdictions.
>>
>> The very same FEMA -- yes, with Brownie in charge -- had done an
>> incredible job on an even bigger hurricane in Florida some time
>> before Katrina. Hmmm... what was different there?
>
> Bush needed votes from Florida.
>
>> Now, all this time later -- with billions of dollars spent -- New
>> Orleans and much of LA is still a complete mess, while neighboring
>> states have cleaned up and moved on. What's different there?
>
> No one in the government gives a damn about black people.
Gee, Johnny, you're on to something! Who knew there were no black people in
Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama and South Carolina?
Nice rap.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 19:43:46
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:35:16 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me >
wrote:
>The very same FEMA -- yes, with Brownie in charge -- had done an incredible
>job on an even bigger hurricane in Florida some time before Katrina.
>Hmmm... what was different there?
Among other things, the leadership of FEMA and the Executive Branch
took the coming hurricane seriously. Brown was completely ignoring
the severity of the event until he was taken to task on national
televesion by, I believe, Anderson Cooper.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 22:59:18
From: still me
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:35:16 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me >
wrote:
>The very same FEMA -- yes, with Brownie in charge -- had done an incredible
>job on an even bigger hurricane in Florida some time before Katrina.
>Hmmm... what was different there?
>Now, all this time later -- with billions of dollars spent -- New Orleans
>and much of LA is still a complete mess, while neighboring states have
>cleaned up and moved on. What's different there?
Gee, I dunno, let's see if we can figure it out Sorni style!
1. They have Democrat for a Governor, not a Republican ?
Maybe... no wait...
2. They're all lower social class people without intelligence?
Wait, I got it.
3. They're all black!
Or the truth: How about FEMA is headed by a political hack appointee
without a clue who fscked up big time in LA?
Translation: You're still a social class bigot.
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner.
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 16:12:46
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
still me wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:35:16 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me>
> wrote:
>
>> The very same FEMA -- yes, with Brownie in charge -- had done an
>> incredible job on an even bigger hurricane in Florida some time
>> before Katrina. Hmmm... what was different there?
>
>> Now, all this time later -- with billions of dollars spent -- New
>> Orleans and much of LA is still a complete mess, while neighboring
>> states have cleaned up and moved on. What's different there?
>
> Gee, I dunno, let's see if we can figure it out Sorni style!
>
> 1. They have Democrat for a Governor, not a Republican ?
Dig deeper.
> Maybe... no wait...
> 2. They're all lower social class people without intelligence?
Absurd.
> Wait, I got it.
> 3. They're all black!
Despicable, but predictable. (And not even close to accurate to boot.)
> Or the truth: How about FEMA is headed by a political hack appointee
> without a clue who fscked up big time in LA?
Brownie was in charge for the Florida hurricane(s), too. The difference was
COMPETENT LOCAL OFFICIALS. You know, the ones who are /supposed/ to know
what's going on.
> Translation: You're still a social class bigot.
> Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner.
Why didn't you reply to Press's post, hypocrite? (Or is it coward?)
BS (and then some)
PS: Who are you?
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 20:05:59
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 16:12:46 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me >
wrote:
>still me wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:35:16 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The very same FEMA -- yes, with Brownie in charge -- had done an
>>> incredible job on an even bigger hurricane in Florida some time
>>> before Katrina. Hmmm... what was different there?
>>
>>> Now, all this time later -- with billions of dollars spent -- New
>>> Orleans and much of LA is still a complete mess, while neighboring
>>> states have cleaned up and moved on. What's different there?
>>
>> Gee, I dunno, let's see if we can figure it out Sorni style!
>>
>> 1. They have Democrat for a Governor, not a Republican ?
>
>Dig deeper.
>
>> Maybe... no wait...
>> 2. They're all lower social class people without intelligence?
>
>Absurd.
>
>> Wait, I got it.
>> 3. They're all black!
>
>Despicable, but predictable. (And not even close to accurate to boot.)
>
>> Or the truth: How about FEMA is headed by a political hack appointee
>> without a clue who fscked up big time in LA?
>
>Brownie was in charge for the Florida hurricane(s), too. The difference was
>COMPETENT LOCAL OFFICIALS. You know, the ones who are /supposed/ to know
>what's going on.
>
>> Translation: You're still a social class bigot.
>> Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner.
>
>Why didn't you reply to Press's post, hypocrite? (Or is it coward?)
Sorni, take a look at this transcript of an inteview with Brown from a
bit over three days after Hurrican Katrina hit land
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0509/01/pzn.01.html
Look especially at this exchange:
BROWN: And so, this -- this catastrophic disaster continues to grow.
I will tell you this, though. Every person in that Convention Center,
we just learned about that today. And so, I have directed that we
have all available resources to get to that Convention Center to make
certain that they have the food and water, the medical care that they
need...
ZAHN: Sir, you aren't telling me...
BROWN: ... and that we take care of those bodies that are there.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Sir, you aren't just telling me you just learned that the folks
at the Convention Center didn't have food and water until today, are
you? You had no idea they were completely cut off?
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Paula, the federal government did not even know about the
Convention Center people until today.
WTF?????
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 19:59:43
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 16:12:46 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me >
wrote:
>still me wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:35:16 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The very same FEMA -- yes, with Brownie in charge -- had done an
>>> incredible job on an even bigger hurricane in Florida some time
>>> before Katrina. Hmmm... what was different there?
>>
>>> Now, all this time later -- with billions of dollars spent -- New
>>> Orleans and much of LA is still a complete mess, while neighboring
>>> states have cleaned up and moved on. What's different there?
>>
>> Gee, I dunno, let's see if we can figure it out Sorni style!
>>
>> 1. They have Democrat for a Governor, not a Republican ?
>
>Dig deeper.
>
>> Maybe... no wait...
>> 2. They're all lower social class people without intelligence?
>
>Absurd.
>
>> Wait, I got it.
>> 3. They're all black!
>
>Despicable, but predictable. (And not even close to accurate to boot.)
>
>> Or the truth: How about FEMA is headed by a political hack appointee
>> without a clue who fscked up big time in LA?
>
>Brownie was in charge for the Florida hurricane(s), too. The difference was
>COMPETENT LOCAL OFFICIALS. You know, the ones who are /supposed/ to know
>what's going on.
>
>> Translation: You're still a social class bigot.
>> Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner.
>
>Why didn't you reply to Press's post, hypocrite? (Or is it coward?)
Sorni, take a look at this email exchange between a FEMA administrator
on the ground during the Katrina disaster and Michael Brown and then
the following exchange with an email from someone on Brown's immediate
staff and that same FEMA officiall:
I'm not saying that weak local response hurt a lot in Katrina, but
you're a total nut to try to wipe away responsiblity on the part of
Brown and Bush in this debacle. Brown was incompetent and Bush simply
didn't care. He still doesn't care.
Emails via http://www.ominous-valve.com/katrina.html but available
many places online.
-----------------------------------------------------
From Bahamonde, Marty
To: [Michael D. Brown]
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 12:20:20 2005
Subject: New Orleans
Sir, I know you know that the situation is past critical. Here some
things that you might not know.
Hotels are kicking people out, thousands gathering in the street with
no food or water.
Hundreds still being rescued from homes.
The dying patients at the DMAT tent being medivac. Estimates are many
will did within hours. Evacuation in progress. Plans developing for
dome evacuation but hotel situation adding to problem. We are out of
food and running out of water at the dome, plans in works to address
the critical need.
FEMA staff is OK and holding own. DMAT staff working in deplorable
conditions. The sooner we can get the medical patients out, the
sooner wecan get them out.
Phone connectivity impossible
More later
-----------------------
Sent from my Blackberry Wireless Handheld
Bahamonde receives the following response from Michael Brown:
From: Brown, Michael D
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 12:24 PM
To: [Marty Bahamonde]
Re: New Orleans
Thanks for update. Anything specific I need to do or tweak?
-----------------------------------
e-mail from Sharon Worthy, Brown's press secretary, telling everyone
to hold on and try not to die while Brown finds a nice place for
dinner in Baton Rouge before going on TV:
"He needs much more that 20 or 30 minutes. Restaurants are getting
busy. We now have traffic to encounter to get to and from a location
of his choise, followed by wait service from the restaurant staff,
eating, etc. Thank you."
Bahamonde sends the following e-mail to a co-worker:
"OH MY GOD!!!!!!! I just ate an MRE and crapped in the hallway of the
Superdome along with 30,000 other close friends so I understand her
concern about busy restaurants."
---------------------------------------------------
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 01:41:30
From: Ed Pirrero
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 14, 3:38 pm, "DI" <di9...@cox.net > wrote:
> "Ed Pirrero" <gcmschem...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1187125286.906290.61760@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> >> No, I just expect them to do their job in a reasonable and efficient way,
> >> and be accountable for their screw ups, same as you or I would working
> >> for a
> >> private company.
>
> > And mostly, they are. Just like at any big private company.
>
> NONSENSE
Yes, I understand that shouting a wrong assertion makes it somehow
magically correct.
Your emotional response indicates that you don't know anything, but
believe much.
> > You don't have a clue how things work in government, do you?
>
> I have a very good clue how things work in government...
I haven't seen any evidence from it in your writings. Mostly talk-
radio hyperbole.
> > Except that's not possible. No regulation = anarchy, and anarchy
> > invites despotism.
[non-response deleted]
Your attempt at name-calling really does point out how weak your
argument is. Reiterating talk-show boilerplate doesn't support your
position in the least.
A 200-level political science class at the nearest university will
help you make the connection. But since you already know all there is
to know on the subject, maybe you should teach it, yes?
> > And if you are like any of the other small-minded "don't regulate me"
> > types, you'll bitch loudest when someone does something that's
> > allowed, but that you don't like.
>
> I don't think it's being "small minded" to want to have control over your
> own destiny.
Except that "control over your own destiny" is an illusion, and always
has been. You are always responsible to others for your actions, and
everything you do has an impact on someone else.
Only the most very selfish people believe that there should be no
rules.
> especially when that beuracrat was most likely hired based on
> his social status, and even more so likely graduated at the bottom of his
> class.
I am sure you believe that to be true. Of course, some folks believe
in space aliens...
E.P.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 22:07:11
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Ed Pirrero wrote:
> ...
> I am sure you believe that to be true. Of course, some folks believe
> in space aliens...
Have you not read the posts to this group by gene "datakoll" daniels? If
so, the existence of space aliens on earth would be hard to deny. ;)
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 20:57:46
From: DI
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
"Ed Pirrero" <gcmschemist@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1187142090.330429.36930@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 14, 3:38 pm, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
>> "Ed Pirrero" <gcmschem...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1187125286.906290.61760@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> >> No, I just expect them to do their job in a reasonable and efficient
>> >> way,
>> >> and be accountable for their screw ups, same as you or I would working
>> >> for a
>> >> private company.
>>
>> > And mostly, they are. Just like at any big private company.
>>
>> NONSENSE
>
> Yes, I understand that shouting a wrong assertion makes it somehow
> magically correct.
>
> Your emotional response indicates that you don't know anything, but
> believe much.
>
>> > You don't have a clue how things work in government, do you?
>>
>> I have a very good clue how things work in government...
>
> I haven't seen any evidence from it in your writings. Mostly talk-
> radio hyperbole.
>
>> > Except that's not possible. No regulation = anarchy, and anarchy
>> > invites despotism.
>
> [non-response deleted]
>
> Your attempt at name-calling really does point out how weak your
> argument is. Reiterating talk-show boilerplate doesn't support your
> position in the least.
>
> A 200-level political science class at the nearest university will
> help you make the connection. But since you already know all there is
> to know on the subject, maybe you should teach it, yes?
>
>
>> > And if you are like any of the other small-minded "don't regulate me"
>> > types, you'll bitch loudest when someone does something that's
>> > allowed, but that you don't like.
>>
>> I don't think it's being "small minded" to want to have control over your
>> own destiny.
>
> Except that "control over your own destiny" is an illusion, and always
> has been. You are always responsible to others for your actions, and
> everything you do has an impact on someone else.
>
> Only the most very selfish people believe that there should be no
> rules.
>
>> especially when that beuracrat was most likely hired based on
>> his social status, and even more so likely graduated at the bottom of his
>> class.
>
> I am sure you believe that to be true. Of course, some folks believe
> in space aliens...
>
> E.P.
>
E.P. you've got to the point where you don't make much sense, you're
speculating, name calling, & mostly lying. I expected this from Sunset,
but not you. You are not able to discredit me, mainly because I don't
take any of this BS seriously, you mean nothing to me or my future. I'll
continue to vote for conservative politicians and do all I can to defeat
your big government desires.
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 22:08:37
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
DI (who?) anonymously snipes:
> ...
> E.P. you've got to the point where you don't make much sense, you're
> speculating, name calling, & mostly lying. I expected this from Sunset,
> but not you. You are not able to discredit me...
How can one discredit a sock puppet?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 01:16:50
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> DI (who?) anonymously snipes:
>> ...
>> E.P. you've got to the point where you don't make much sense, you're
>> speculating, name calling, & mostly lying. I expected this from
>> Sunset, but not you. You are not able to discredit me...
> How can one discredit a sock puppet?
For whom is Edie pen-writing now? HWNMNBM comes to mind, but he doesn't
need help being self-satisfied and condescending...
|
| | | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 09:59:26
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 14, 4:24 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 20:22:52 -0700, Jay Beattie
>
>
>
>
>
> <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> >On Aug 13, 6:30 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> >wrote:
> >> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:20:52 -0700, Jay Beattie
>
> >> <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> >> >On Aug 13, 12:26 pm, Andrew Price <ajpr...@free.fr> wrote:
> >> >> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 01:16:34 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
>
> >> >> <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
> >> >> >is the longshoreman thing common? Are they making $300K year on
> >> >> >$30+/hour?
>
> >> >> I doubt it, as there aren't enough hours in a year for them to reach
> >> >> $300K at $30 per hour, even working round the clock, 7 days a week...
>
> >> >Seehttp://tinyurl.com/2phjlzSeveral walking bosses were approaching
> >> >$400K. You don't understand wage guarantees. Read the CBA, and it
> >> >will become clear how a longshoreman can "work" eight hours in one
> >> >hour. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> >> I guess I'll have to look through the 20+ pages of charts to see if it
> >> answers the question I asked - is that longshoreman thing common?
>
> >The info is on document page 63
>
> Ten people making $300K or more/year? That's it? And it took asking
> twice to get that out of you.
Is everything a conspiracy to you JT? I never said everybody and
their brother was making nearly $300K. I said there were some people
who were -- and that was based on my knowledge of particular workers
in Long Beach and without the help of the PMA info that I cited. That
info shows I was right -- and that info only refers to west coast
ports and not NJ, NY and many other huge ports in the east or on the
Gulf. You also ignore the dozens of people making well over $200K and
nearly $300K (my original statement was "close to" $300K). You only
focus on the "over $300K" -- and some "close to" $400K. You also
ignore the overall pay scale for bosses and the AVERAGE pay of $210K.
That is for doing work that is less hard than being a construction
superintendent. Clerks make an average of $163K for doing work that
could be handled by a highschooler. -- Jay Beattie.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 20:52:21
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Jay Beattie wrote:
> On Aug 14, 4:24 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 20:22:52 -0700, Jay Beattie
>>
>> <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>>> On Aug 13, 6:30 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:20:52 -0700, Jay Beattie
>>>> <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Aug 13, 12:26 pm, Andrew Price <ajpr...@free.fr> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 01:16:34 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
>>>>>> <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> is the longshoreman thing common? Are they making $300K year on
>>>>>>> $30+/hour?
>>>>>> I doubt it, as there aren't enough hours in a year for them to reach
>>>>>> $300K at $30 per hour, even working round the clock, 7 days a week...
>>>>> Seehttp://tinyurl.com/2phjlzSeveral walking bosses were approaching
>>>>> $400K. You don't understand wage guarantees. Read the CBA, and it
>>>>> will become clear how a longshoreman can "work" eight hours in one
>>>>> hour. -- Jay Beattie.
>>>> I guess I'll have to look through the 20+ pages of charts to see if it
>>>> answers the question I asked - is that longshoreman thing common?
>>> The info is on document page 63
>> Ten people making $300K or more/year? That's it? And it took asking
>> twice to get that out of you.
>
> Is everything a conspiracy to you JT? I never said everybody and
> their brother was making nearly $300K. I said there were some people
> who were -- and that was based on my knowledge of particular workers
> in Long Beach and without the help of the PMA info that I cited. That
> info shows I was right -- and that info only refers to west coast
> ports and not NJ, NY and many other huge ports in the east or on the
> Gulf. You also ignore the dozens of people making well over $200K and
> nearly $300K (my original statement was "close to" $300K). You only
> focus on the "over $300K" -- and some "close to" $400K. You also
> ignore the overall pay scale for bosses and the AVERAGE pay of $210K.
> That is for doing work that is less hard than being a construction
> superintendent. Clerks make an average of $163K for doing work that
> could be handled by a highschooler. -- Jay Beattie.
I used to lift 20 to 25 tons of product in a 12-hour shift for
$4.90/hour [1][2] with no benefits.
[1] About $7/hour adjusted for inflation.
[2] Bonus rate for night shift. Day shift was $4.65/hour.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 20:09:50
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
-snip snip snip-
Jay Beattie wrote:
> Is everything a conspiracy to you JT? I never said everybody and
> their brother was making nearly $300K. I said there were some people
> who were -- and that was based on my knowledge of particular workers
> in Long Beach and without the help of the PMA info that I cited. That
> info shows I was right -- and that info only refers to west coast
> ports and not NJ, NY and many other huge ports in the east or on the
> Gulf. You also ignore the dozens of people making well over $200K and
> nearly $300K (my original statement was "close to" $300K). You only
> focus on the "over $300K" -- and some "close to" $400K. You also
> ignore the overall pay scale for bosses and the AVERAGE pay of $210K.
> That is for doing work that is less hard than being a construction
> superintendent. Clerks make an average of $163K for doing work that
> could be handled by a highschooler. -- Jay Beattie.
$163K _and_ the the filthy rich bastards exploit Tom Sherman.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 21:02:03
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Andrew Muzi wrote:
> -snip snip snip-
> Jay Beattie wrote:
>> Is everything a conspiracy to you JT? I never said everybody and
>> their brother was making nearly $300K. I said there were some people
>> who were -- and that was based on my knowledge of particular workers
>> in Long Beach and without the help of the PMA info that I cited. That
>> info shows I was right -- and that info only refers to west coast
>> ports and not NJ, NY and many other huge ports in the east or on the
>> Gulf. You also ignore the dozens of people making well over $200K and
>> nearly $300K (my original statement was "close to" $300K). You only
>> focus on the "over $300K" -- and some "close to" $400K. You also
>> ignore the overall pay scale for bosses and the AVERAGE pay of $210K.
>> That is for doing work that is less hard than being a construction
>> superintendent. Clerks make an average of $163K for doing work that
>> could be handled by a highschooler. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> $163K _and_ the the filthy rich bastards exploit Tom Sherman.
With a graduate degree and doing professional work, my real wage is less
than $20/hour. Not poverty by any means, but not what is promised by the
public schools and mainstream media.
Think of it this way. If people like me made the same relative wages
that were paid 30 or 40 years ago, we could easily afford something we
want but do not need, such as this:
<http://www.gunnarbikes.com/crosshairs.php > [1]. However, I do not have
the combination of discretionary income, free time and health (related
to paying for health care) to justify such a purchase.
[1] There are times that one does not want the attention of riding a
recumbent. And contrary to public opinion, I do not have anything
against upright bicycles for those who are comfortable riding them.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 01:21:59
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> Andrew Muzi wrote:
>> -snip snip snip-
>> Jay Beattie wrote:
>>> Is everything a conspiracy to you JT? I never said everybody and
>>> their brother was making nearly $300K. I said there were some
>>> people who were -- and that was based on my knowledge of particular
>>> workers in Long Beach and without the help of the PMA info that I
>>> cited. That info shows I was right -- and that info only refers to
>>> west coast ports and not NJ, NY and many other huge ports in the
>>> east or on the Gulf. You also ignore the dozens of people making
>>> well over $200K and nearly $300K (my original statement was "close
>>> to" $300K). You only focus on the "over $300K" -- and some "close
>>> to" $400K. You also ignore the overall pay scale for bosses and
>>> the AVERAGE pay of $210K. That is for doing work that is less hard
>>> than being a construction superintendent. Clerks make an average
>>> of $163K for doing work that could be handled by a highschooler. --
>>> Jay Beattie.
>>
>> $163K _and_ the the filthy rich bastards exploit Tom Sherman.
>
> With a graduate degree and doing professional work, my real wage is
> less than $20/hour. Not poverty by any means, but not what is
> promised by the public schools and mainstream media.
So quitcherbitchin' and GET A BETTER JOB. Jesus you play the victim...
> Think of it this way. If people like me made the same relative wages
> that were paid 30 or 40 years ago, we could easily afford something we
> want but do not need, such as this:
> <http://www.gunnarbikes.com/crosshairs.php> [1]. However, I do not
> have the combination of discretionary income, free time and health
> (related to paying for health care) to justify such a purchase.
>
> [1] There are times that one does not want the attention of riding a
> recumbent. And contrary to public opinion, I do not have anything
> against upright bicycles for those who are comfortable riding them.
People who accept responsibility for their own lot in life, OTOH...
Bill "a little 'V' tattoo wouldn't cost much, Johnny" S.
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 23:35:55
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Bill Sornson wrote:
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> Andrew Muzi wrote:
>>> -snip snip snip-
>>> Jay Beattie wrote:
>>>> Is everything a conspiracy to you JT? I never said everybody and
>>>> their brother was making nearly $300K. I said there were some
>>>> people who were -- and that was based on my knowledge of particular
>>>> workers in Long Beach and without the help of the PMA info that I
>>>> cited. That info shows I was right -- and that info only refers to
>>>> west coast ports and not NJ, NY and many other huge ports in the
>>>> east or on the Gulf. You also ignore the dozens of people making
>>>> well over $200K and nearly $300K (my original statement was "close
>>>> to" $300K). You only focus on the "over $300K" -- and some "close
>>>> to" $400K. You also ignore the overall pay scale for bosses and
>>>> the AVERAGE pay of $210K. That is for doing work that is less hard
>>>> than being a construction superintendent. Clerks make an average
>>>> of $163K for doing work that could be handled by a highschooler. --
>>>> Jay Beattie.
>>> $163K _and_ the the filthy rich bastards exploit Tom Sherman.
>> With a graduate degree and doing professional work, my real wage is
>> less than $20/hour. Not poverty by any means, but not what is
>> promised by the public schools and mainstream media.
>
> So quitcherbitchin' and GET A BETTER JOB.
Where?
> Jesus you play the victim...
>
>> Think of it this way. If people like me made the same relative wages
>> that were paid 30 or 40 years ago, we could easily afford something we
>> want but do not need, such as this:
>> <http://www.gunnarbikes.com/crosshairs.php> [1]. However, I do not
>> have the combination of discretionary income, free time and health
>> (related to paying for health care) to justify such a purchase.
>>
>> [1] There are times that one does not want the attention of riding a
>> recumbent. And contrary to public opinion, I do not have anything
>> against upright bicycles for those who are comfortable riding them.
>
> People who accept responsibility for their own lot in life, OTOH...
More like people who have no freaking clue as to how privileged they
actually are.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 16 Aug 2007 01:49:09
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> Bill Sornson wrote:
>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>> Andrew Muzi wrote:
>>>> -snip snip snip-
>>>> Jay Beattie wrote:
>>>>> Is everything a conspiracy to you JT? I never said everybody and
>>>>> their brother was making nearly $300K. I said there were some
>>>>> people who were -- and that was based on my knowledge of
>>>>> particular workers in Long Beach and without the help of the PMA
>>>>> info that I cited. That info shows I was right -- and that info
>>>>> only refers to west coast ports and not NJ, NY and many other
>>>>> huge ports in the east or on the Gulf. You also ignore the dozens
>>>>> of people making well over $200K and nearly $300K (my original
>>>>> statement was "close to" $300K). You only focus on the "over
>>>>> $300K" -- and some "close to" $400K. You also ignore the overall
>>>>> pay scale for bosses and the AVERAGE pay of $210K. That is for
>>>>> doing work that is less hard than being a construction
>>>>> superintendent. Clerks make an average of $163K for doing work
>>>>> that could be handled by a highschooler. -- Jay Beattie.
>>>> $163K _and_ the the filthy rich bastards exploit Tom Sherman.
>>> With a graduate degree and doing professional work, my real wage is
>>> less than $20/hour. Not poverty by any means, but not what is
>>> promised by the public schools and mainstream media.
>>
>> So quitcherbitchin' and GET A BETTER JOB.
>
> Where?
Anywhere, apparently.
>> Jesus you play the victim...
>>
>>> Think of it this way. If people like me made the same relative wages
>>> that were paid 30 or 40 years ago, we could easily afford something
>>> we want but do not need, such as this:
>>> <http://www.gunnarbikes.com/crosshairs.php> [1]. However, I do not
>>> have the combination of discretionary income, free time and health
>>> (related to paying for health care) to justify such a purchase.
>>>
>>> [1] There are times that one does not want the attention of riding a
>>> recumbent. And contrary to public opinion, I do not have anything
>>> against upright bicycles for those who are comfortable riding them.
>>
>> People who accept responsibility for their own lot in life, OTOH...
>
> More like people who have no freaking clue as to how privileged they
> actually are.
Many prosperous people are deeply appreciative of their good fortune and
know how lucky they are. OTOH, most "struggling" people also have a
realistic sense of proportion, and expect that hard work and good behavior
will lead to better things. Even the poorest in America are way wealthier
than most in the world. Cars, computers, cable TV and broadband -- these
things are absolute luxuries.
Then there are the /perpetual victims/ like you...
BS
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 16 Aug 2007 20:59:40
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Bill Sornson wrote:
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>>> Andrew Muzi wrote:
>>>>> -snip snip snip-
>>>>> Jay Beattie wrote:
>>>>>> Is everything a conspiracy to you JT? I never said everybody and
>>>>>> their brother was making nearly $300K. I said there were some
>>>>>> people who were -- and that was based on my knowledge of
>>>>>> particular workers in Long Beach and without the help of the PMA
>>>>>> info that I cited. That info shows I was right -- and that info
>>>>>> only refers to west coast ports and not NJ, NY and many other
>>>>>> huge ports in the east or on the Gulf. You also ignore the dozens
>>>>>> of people making well over $200K and nearly $300K (my original
>>>>>> statement was "close to" $300K). You only focus on the "over
>>>>>> $300K" -- and some "close to" $400K. You also ignore the overall
>>>>>> pay scale for bosses and the AVERAGE pay of $210K. That is for
>>>>>> doing work that is less hard than being a construction
>>>>>> superintendent. Clerks make an average of $163K for doing work
>>>>>> that could be handled by a highschooler. -- Jay Beattie.
>>>>> $163K _and_ the the filthy rich bastards exploit Tom Sherman.
>>>> With a graduate degree and doing professional work, my real wage is
>>>> less than $20/hour. Not poverty by any means, but not what is
>>>> promised by the public schools and mainstream media.
>>> So quitcherbitchin' and GET A BETTER JOB.
>> Where?
>
> Anywhere, apparently.
The sad part is I do have a better job than most people. The problem is
built into the system, not a matter of individual employers.
>>> Jesus you play the victim...
>>>
>>>> Think of it this way. If people like me made the same relative wages
>>>> that were paid 30 or 40 years ago, we could easily afford something
>>>> we want but do not need, such as this:
>>>> <http://www.gunnarbikes.com/crosshairs.php> [1]. However, I do not
>>>> have the combination of discretionary income, free time and health
>>>> (related to paying for health care) to justify such a purchase.
>>>>
>>>> [1] There are times that one does not want the attention of riding a
>>>> recumbent. And contrary to public opinion, I do not have anything
>>>> against upright bicycles for those who are comfortable riding them.
>>> People who accept responsibility for their own lot in life, OTOH...
>> More like people who have no freaking clue as to how privileged they
>> actually are.
>
> Many prosperous people are deeply appreciative of their good fortune and
> know how lucky they are.
Not the ones that wages class warfare. Throughout history the upper
classes have always used religious and "moral" arguments to justify
exploiting others for wealth and power. To believe that a certain
country is exceptional from this is silly.
> OTOH, most "struggling" people also have a
> realistic sense of proportion, and expect that hard work and good behavior
> will lead to better things. Even the poorest in America are way wealthier
> than most in the world. Cars, computers, cable TV and broadband -- these
> things are absolute luxuries.
WAKE UP BILL!!! The issue is the fairness of distribution of the overall
wealth of a society in relationship to the contribution of each
individual to the overall betterment of that society.
> Then there are the /perpetual victims/ like you...
Obviously Bill Sornson is privileged in unearned ways that he fails to
realize or admit to.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 17 Aug 2007 03:37:24
From: still me
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:59:40 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote:
>
>> Then there are the /perpetual victims/ like you...
>
>Obviously Bill Sornson is privileged in unearned ways that he fails to
>realize or admit to.
No, he's just brainwashed to the point that he believe's he's better
off - just watch him defend those who are using him as a cog in the
wheel. He's a perfect example of what the Republican marketing machine
does best.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 17 Aug 2007 07:35:15
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 03:37:24 GMT, still me <wheeledBob@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:59:40 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
><sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>> Then there are the /perpetual victims/ like you...
>>
>>Obviously Bill Sornson is privileged in unearned ways that he fails to
>>realize or admit to.
>
>No, he's just brainwashed to the point that he believe's he's better
>off - just watch him defend those who are using him as a cog in the
>wheel. He's a perfect example of what the Republican marketing machine
>does best.
Well, he claimed to have a lot of money in investments once, so it's
possible that he is benefiting from some of Bush's policies.
--
JT
****************************
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|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 16 Aug 2007 07:35:25
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 01:49:09 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me >
wrote:
>Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>>> Andrew Muzi wrote:
>>>>> -snip snip snip-
>>>>> Jay Beattie wrote:
>>>>>> Is everything a conspiracy to you JT? I never said everybody and
>>>>>> their brother was making nearly $300K. I said there were some
>>>>>> people who were -- and that was based on my knowledge of
>>>>>> particular workers in Long Beach and without the help of the PMA
>>>>>> info that I cited. That info shows I was right -- and that info
>>>>>> only refers to west coast ports and not NJ, NY and many other
>>>>>> huge ports in the east or on the Gulf. You also ignore the dozens
>>>>>> of people making well over $200K and nearly $300K (my original
>>>>>> statement was "close to" $300K). You only focus on the "over
>>>>>> $300K" -- and some "close to" $400K. You also ignore the overall
>>>>>> pay scale for bosses and the AVERAGE pay of $210K. That is for
>>>>>> doing work that is less hard than being a construction
>>>>>> superintendent. Clerks make an average of $163K for doing work
>>>>>> that could be handled by a highschooler. -- Jay Beattie.
>>>>> $163K _and_ the the filthy rich bastards exploit Tom Sherman.
>>>> With a graduate degree and doing professional work, my real wage is
>>>> less than $20/hour. Not poverty by any means, but not what is
>>>> promised by the public schools and mainstream media.
>>>
>>> So quitcherbitchin' and GET A BETTER JOB.
>>
>> Where?
>
>Anywhere, apparently.
That's simply not true and shows you don't take our country's economic
problems seriously. On aggregate the US economy is doing well. But
there is a growing gap between haves and have-nots that those numbers
hide.
--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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| | | | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 18:27:58
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 09:59:26 -0700, Jay Beattie
<jbeattie@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
>You also ignore the dozens of people making well over $200K and
>nearly $300K
How did I ignore them? By not writing about them?. I didn't write
about the guy up the street from me making a couple million in hedge
funds, the fact that I ate some rice noodles for dinner and the
temperature in my city was in the 80s.
Sorry.
If you want to ask me some specific question related to something I
said, and I don't respond, that is real ignoring.
--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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| | | | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 18:25:40
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 09:59:26 -0700, Jay Beattie
<jbeattie@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
>
>Is everything a conspiracy to you JT? I never said everybody and
>their brother was making nearly $300K. I said there were some people
>who were -
And I asked you if it was common. And then asked again and got a
reference to a long document and finally you pointed it out to me.
The straightforward answer in the first place would have been "No."
Simple.
--
JT
****************************
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| | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 22:16:14
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
>>>> RonSonic wrote:
>>>>> Unions are a very nice part of the free market.
>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>> Yup. They are what created most of the American middle class.
>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>> And then nearly destroyed it.
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>> Only in the world of right-wing talk radio.
Chalo wrote:
> Yeah, funny how the decline of the middle class has coincided with the
> decline of the power of unions. That must be because we made the
> mistake of not giving the rich and powerful _even more_ power and
> riches! After all, they know what's best for all of us.
Hmmm. The period also coincided with the displacement of propeller
planes for jets, change from all rented Western Electric phones to free
market, swing from VHF to cable tv and the demise of afternoon papers.
Wanna find a _causal_ relationship?
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 23:12:42
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article <13bvj7h3mvlia74@corp.supernews.com >,
A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> >>>> RonSonic wrote:
> >>>>> Unions are a very nice part of the free market.
>
> >>> Tim McNamara wrote:
> >>>> Yup. They are what created most of the American middle class.
>
> >> Bill Sornson wrote:
> >>> And then nearly destroyed it.
>
> > Tom Sherman wrote:
> >> Only in the world of right-wing talk radio.
>
> Chalo wrote:
> > Yeah, funny how the decline of the middle class has coincided with
> > the decline of the power of unions. That must be because we made
> > the mistake of not giving the rich and powerful _even more_ power
> > and riches! After all, they know what's best for all of us.
>
> Hmmm. The period also coincided with the displacement of propeller
> planes for jets, change from all rented Western Electric phones to
> free market, swing from VHF to cable tv and the demise of afternoon
> papers.
>
> Wanna find a _causal_ relationship?
Sure. The sale of the government to the highest bidder through the
legalized bribery that is "campaign finance." And who's got the money
to buy favorable legislation? Sure as hell ain't the middle class.
|
| | | | |
Date: 10 Aug 2007 20:33:51
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 11:58:22 -0500, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote:
>In article <eqtob31igcg0m1o8lcgvm4hh3jmi67mnf6@4ax.com>,
> RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 05:41:29 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
>> <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>> >Exactly. This is not a "Chinese problem", it's an American company
>> >bottom feeding problem. Low balling vendors supplying iffy product
>> >are hardly unique to China. Remember folks, there's alot of
>> >Made-in-USA crap out there, too.
>>
>> There is crap and there is deliberately mislabeled and fraudulently
>> presented crap. There is all the difference in the world between the
>> two. If you buy a bag of grain meal and it's crap there will be
>> debris and insect and rodent and all the usual. That is plain normal
>> crap and that's what goes in animal feed. But when the bag is sold as
>> crap meal and it actually contains a deliberately added contaminant
>> that causes favorable protein measurements and is not normally tested
>> for because there is no reason for this particular contaminant to
>> occur in grain then you are talking about something very, very
>> different.
>>
>> Haiti, Pakistan, Malaysia will all sell you crap, but it takes
>> decades of Commie indoctrination and a centuries old contempt for the
>> common man to do the other thing.
>
>Sorry, Ron, but the history of capitalism is rife with exactly the same
>set of problems. Just look into "patent medicines" to see plenty of
>examples. It's a subset of human nature, not "Commie indoctrination."
>The difference is that now it is easy for bad people to produce and
>market these things in huge quantities.
Fair enough, it is a human nature problem. It is an anachronism in the 21st
century West and I'll blame the commies for the present state of Chinese
backwardness on the issue. There is a real difference between normal crap
products and the contempt for the life and safety and livelihoods of others that
we've seen in a the recent recalls. Communism has a long history of unsafe and
polluted consumer goods for which there was no recourse. The business culture of
China still hasn't caught on to the change.
Greed is human, preventing it from doing harm to others is the job of culture,
social structures and government. Ours are better than theirs.
Ron
|
| | | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 00:22:31
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article <750qb397gaiuekcpeg6prl4a3pg7o86jpd@4ax.com >,
RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 11:58:22 -0500, Tim McNamara
> <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> >In article <eqtob31igcg0m1o8lcgvm4hh3jmi67mnf6@4ax.com>,
> > RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 05:41:29 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
> >> <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> >> >Exactly. This is not a "Chinese problem", it's an American
> >> >company bottom feeding problem. Low balling vendors supplying
> >> >iffy product are hardly unique to China. Remember folks, there's
> >> >alot of Made-in-USA crap out there, too.
> >>
> >> There is crap and there is deliberately mislabeled and
> >> fraudulently presented crap. There is all the difference in the
> >> world between the two. If you buy a bag of grain meal and it's
> >> crap there will be debris and insect and rodent and all the usual.
> >> That is plain normal crap and that's what goes in animal feed. But
> >> when the bag is sold as crap meal and it actually contains a
> >> deliberately added contaminant that causes favorable protein
> >> measurements and is not normally tested for because there is no
> >> reason for this particular contaminant to occur in grain then you
> >> are talking about something very, very different.
> >>
> >> Haiti, Pakistan, Malaysia will all sell you crap, but it takes
> >> decades of Commie indoctrination and a centuries old contempt for
> >> the common man to do the other thing.
> >
> >Sorry, Ron, but the history of capitalism is rife with exactly the
> >same set of problems. Just look into "patent medicines" to see
> >plenty of examples. It's a subset of human nature, not "Commie
> >indoctrination." The difference is that now it is easy for bad
> >people to produce and market these things in huge quantities.
>
> Fair enough, it is a human nature problem. It is an anachronism in
> the 21st century West and I'll blame the commies for the present
> state of Chinese backwardness on the issue. There is a real
> difference between normal crap products and the contempt for the life
> and safety and livelihoods of others that we've seen in a the recent
> recalls.
We've seen a similar disregard here as well, the difference being that
the government eventually enforces compliance with better standards.
> Communism has a long history of unsafe and polluted consumer
> goods for which there was no recourse.
As, again, has capitalism. Marx was inspired by the squalor and
degradation of the workers in London, after all. His alternative didn't
quite work out as advertised, though.
> The business culture of China still hasn't caught on to the change.
At least some substantial sections of it- never having been there I
don;t know how pervasive that is. Say, there is a really rather
fascinating article on the cloning of the iPhone by a Chinese company.
The central story is not as interesting as the background- Chinese
companies not only cloning products but cloning the factories and office
buildings too! It's really quite amazing. The deficits are also
pointed out as well. You can find the link to it on Slashdot. Anyone
who has any interest in this ought to find it quite interesting. Wait a
minute, here it is:
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/technology/e7e48a137b144110vgnvcm1000004eecb
ccdrcrd.html
Sorry about the long URL.
> Greed is human, preventing it from doing harm to others is the job of
> culture, social structures and government. Ours are better than
> theirs.
On that we agree.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 21:32:20
From: Andrew Price
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 00:22:31 -0500, Tim McNamara
<timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote:
>> Communism has a long history of unsafe and polluted consumer
>> goods for which there was no recourse.
>
>As, again, has capitalism. Marx was inspired by the squalor and
>degradation of the workers in London, after all.
As was his associate, Friedrich Engels, by the appalling working and
living conditions of factory workers in Manchester.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 00:48:34
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <750qb397gaiuekcpeg6prl4a3pg7o86jpd@4ax.com>,
> RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 11:58:22 -0500, Tim McNamara
>> <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <eqtob31igcg0m1o8lcgvm4hh3jmi67mnf6@4ax.com>,
>>> RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 05:41:29 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
>>>> <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>>>> Exactly. This is not a "Chinese problem", it's an American
>>>>> company bottom feeding problem. Low balling vendors supplying
>>>>> iffy product are hardly unique to China. Remember folks, there's
>>>>> alot of Made-in-USA crap out there, too.
>>>> There is crap and there is deliberately mislabeled and
>>>> fraudulently presented crap. There is all the difference in the
>>>> world between the two. If you buy a bag of grain meal and it's
>>>> crap there will be debris and insect and rodent and all the usual.
>>>> That is plain normal crap and that's what goes in animal feed. But
>>>> when the bag is sold as crap meal and it actually contains a
>>>> deliberately added contaminant that causes favorable protein
>>>> measurements and is not normally tested for because there is no
>>>> reason for this particular contaminant to occur in grain then you
>>>> are talking about something very, very different.
>>>>
>>>> Haiti, Pakistan, Malaysia will all sell you crap, but it takes
>>>> decades of Commie indoctrination and a centuries old contempt for
>>>> the common man to do the other thing.
>>> Sorry, Ron, but the history of capitalism is rife with exactly the
>>> same set of problems. Just look into "patent medicines" to see
>>> plenty of examples. It's a subset of human nature, not "Commie
>>> indoctrination." The difference is that now it is easy for bad
>>> people to produce and market these things in huge quantities.
>> Fair enough, it is a human nature problem. It is an anachronism in
>> the 21st century West and I'll blame the commies for the present
>> state of Chinese backwardness on the issue. There is a real
>> difference between normal crap products and the contempt for the life
>> and safety and livelihoods of others that we've seen in a the recent
>> recalls.
>
> We've seen a similar disregard here as well, the difference being that
> the government eventually enforces compliance with better standards.
Not so much with the current government.
>> Communism has a long history of unsafe and polluted consumer
>> goods for which there was no recourse.
>
> As, again, has capitalism. Marx was inspired by the squalor and
> degradation of the workers in London, after all. His alternative didn't
> quite work out as advertised, though....
Marx's alternative was never really tried. Lenin and all his imitators
merely replaced feudal overlords with bureaucratic overlords.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 17:06:41
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article <46bd419a$0$21011$88260bb3@free.teranews.com >,
"Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <750qb397gaiuekcpeg6prl4a3pg7o86jpd@4ax.com>,
> > RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 11:58:22 -0500, Tim McNamara
> >> <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> In article <eqtob31igcg0m1o8lcgvm4hh3jmi67mnf6@4ax.com>, RonSonic
> >>> <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 05:41:29 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
> >>>> <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Exactly. This is not a "Chinese problem", it's an American
> >>>>> company bottom feeding problem. Low balling vendors supplying
> >>>>> iffy product are hardly unique to China. Remember folks,
> >>>>> there's alot of Made-in-USA crap out there, too.
> >>>> There is crap and there is deliberately mislabeled and
> >>>> fraudulently presented crap. There is all the difference in the
> >>>> world between the two. If you buy a bag of grain meal and it's
> >>>> crap there will be debris and insect and rodent and all the
> >>>> usual. That is plain normal crap and that's what goes in animal
> >>>> feed. But when the bag is sold as crap meal and it actually
> >>>> contains a deliberately added contaminant that causes favorable
> >>>> protein measurements and is not normally tested for because
> >>>> there is no reason for this particular contaminant to occur in
> >>>> grain then you are talking about something very, very different.
> >>>>
> >>>> Haiti, Pakistan, Malaysia will all sell you crap, but it takes
> >>>> decades of Commie indoctrination and a centuries old contempt
> >>>> for the common man to do the other thing.
> >>> Sorry, Ron, but the history of capitalism is rife with exactly
> >>> the same set of problems. Just look into "patent medicines" to
> >>> see plenty of examples. It's a subset of human nature, not
> >>> "Commie indoctrination." The difference is that now it is easy
> >>> for bad people to produce and market these things in huge
> >>> quantities.
> >>
> >> Fair enough, it is a human nature problem. It is an anachronism in
> >> the 21st century West and I'll blame the commies for the present
> >> state of Chinese backwardness on the issue. There is a real
> >> difference between normal crap products and the contempt for the
> >> life and safety and livelihoods of others that we've seen in a the
> >> recent recalls.
> >
> > We've seen a similar disregard here as well, the difference being
> > that the government eventually enforces compliance with better
> > standards.
>
> Not so much with the current government.
Yes and no. There have been some high level prosecutions (Kenneth Lay,
the lobbying scandal, etc. spring to mind) regarding corruption in the
public and private sector. While I think that the Bush-Cheney
Administration is woefully inept and in some cases actively evil, they
have to a large degree enforced the laws of the land even when some of
those sanctioned would reasonably be described as "insiders." Their
activities about events outside the borders of the US have been
distinctly dodgy...
> >> Communism has a long history of unsafe and polluted consumer goods
> >> for which there was no recourse.
> >
> > As, again, has capitalism. Marx was inspired by the squalor and
> > degradation of the workers in London, after all. His alternative
> > didn't quite work out as advertised, though....
>
> Marx's alternative was never really tried. Lenin and all his
> imitators merely replaced feudal overlords with bureaucratic
> overlords.
I am not sure that Marx's alternative *could* be tried. Even as a
liberal it is necessary to recognize that most people are motivated to a
great degree by self-interest, and that absent a direct connection
between one's productivity and one's financial status there is a
tendency for productivity to break down. This IMHO is what sank the
USSR, not Reagan's "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall" soundbite.
Marx's ideas were dependent on too many untenable assumptions about
human nature.
There are some things that can be done more effectively through the
public sector (e.g., roads, national defense, police and fire services,
education public greenspace, and IMHO health care finance) but most
other things that are more effectively achieved through the private
sector.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 10 Aug 2007 20:42:18
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 20:33:51 -0400, RonSonic
<ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
>Communism has a long history of unsafe and
>polluted consumer goods for which there was no recourse.
How long was/is that tradition? How long was or is the tradition of
crap treatement of workers and consumers under capitalism, say in the
US?
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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|
| | | | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 09:07:01
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 20:42:18 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
<usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
>On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 20:33:51 -0400, RonSonic
><ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Communism has a long history of unsafe and
>>polluted consumer goods for which there was no recourse.
>
>How long was/is that tradition? How long was or is the tradition of
>crap treatement of workers and consumers under capitalism, say in the
>US?
Fairly extensive as well, but here you don't go to an asylum or reeducation camp
for complaining about it so that eventually everyone figured out how to keep the
greedy bastards in line.
Ron
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 08:24:44
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
RonSonic wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 20:42:18 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
> <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 20:33:51 -0400, RonSonic
>> <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Communism has a long history of unsafe and
>>> polluted consumer goods for which there was no recourse.
>> How long was/is that tradition? How long was or is the tradition of
>> crap treatement of workers and consumers under capitalism, say in the
>> US?
>
> Fairly extensive as well, but here you don't go to an asylum or reeducation camp
> for complaining about it so that eventually everyone figured out how to keep the
> greedy bastards in line.
Until 1980, when the "greedy bastards" managed to fool enough people
most of the time to make a resurgence. They have gutted the country of
decent jobs, replaced by near slave labor in China.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| |
Date: 09 Aug 2007 20:28:39
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 9, 10:23 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net > wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > On Aug 9, 10:06 pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> >> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> >>> On Aug 9, 9:03 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >>>>> On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:04:49 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> >>>>> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
> >>>>>>> From the Metheny and Burke e-newsletter today:
> >>>>>>> Bicycle recall: Raleigh America and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety
> >>>>>>> Commission are recalling 1,200 Chinese-made Raleigh Cadent bikes with
> >>>>>>> Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks. The forks can break
> >>>>>>> during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall. Raleigh
> >>>>>>> has received three reports of fork failures, resulting in a dislocated
> >>>>>>> shoulder, a concussion and a broken jaw....
> >>>>>> I expect that we will see a lot more incidents/accidents like these as
> >>>>>> cheap CFRP components made with questionable quality control become more
> >>>>>> common.
> >>>>> There weren't recalls back in the day before carbon fiber use was
> >>>>> common?
> >>>> of course. this is a "china" problem, not a "carbon" problem.-
> >>> Wow, the China bashing is getting a bit much these days. Mattel
> >>> recalls toys, but it was the fault of the Chinese maker, not Mattel's
> >>> lack of oversight....or so says the media. Similar situation here -
> >>> this is Raleigh's problem; in a quest for cheap, they apparently
> >>> bought from a shoddy vendor, and those exist everywhere in the world.
> >> Maybe the China bashing is just about on the right level. We haven't
> >> bashed them for good products, only crap they're sending us. Bad food,
> >> bad automobile tires, bad carbon fiber forks, lead in the paint on kids'
> >> toys, etc.
>
> >> Okay, maybe the US companies contracting with the Chinese companies have
> >> been naive, thinking they'd get what they were paying for, but I'll bet
> >> that is changing -- fast! There are probably a lot of companies
> >> rebuilding their quality control organizations to check that their
> >> offshored production is up to standards.-
>
> > IOW, doing now what they should have been doing all along: assuring
> > the qualitity of the products bearing their name.
>
> uneconomic to do 100% testing - and you'd need to with some suppliers.-
Then the bike resellers are using the wrong suppliers in such cases.
|
| | |
Date: 09 Aug 2007 20:46:48
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Aug 9, 10:23 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>> On Aug 9, 10:06 pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>>>> On Aug 9, 9:03 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:04:49 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
>>>>>>> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>>>> From the Metheny and Burke e-newsletter today:
>>>>>>>>> Bicycle recall: Raleigh America and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety
>>>>>>>>> Commission are recalling 1,200 Chinese-made Raleigh Cadent bikes with
>>>>>>>>> Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks. The forks can break
>>>>>>>>> during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall. Raleigh
>>>>>>>>> has received three reports of fork failures, resulting in a dislocated
>>>>>>>>> shoulder, a concussion and a broken jaw....
>>>>>>>> I expect that we will see a lot more incidents/accidents like these as
>>>>>>>> cheap CFRP components made with questionable quality control become more
>>>>>>>> common.
>>>>>>> There weren't recalls back in the day before carbon fiber use was
>>>>>>> common?
>>>>>> of course. this is a "china" problem, not a "carbon" problem.-
>>>>> Wow, the China bashing is getting a bit much these days. Mattel
>>>>> recalls toys, but it was the fault of the Chinese maker, not Mattel's
>>>>> lack of oversight....or so says the media. Similar situation here -
>>>>> this is Raleigh's problem; in a quest for cheap, they apparently
>>>>> bought from a shoddy vendor, and those exist everywhere in the world.
>>>> Maybe the China bashing is just about on the right level. We haven't
>>>> bashed them for good products, only crap they're sending us. Bad food,
>>>> bad automobile tires, bad carbon fiber forks, lead in the paint on kids'
>>>> toys, etc.
>>>> Okay, maybe the US companies contracting with the Chinese companies have
>>>> been naive, thinking they'd get what they were paying for, but I'll bet
>>>> that is changing -- fast! There are probably a lot of companies
>>>> rebuilding their quality control organizations to check that their
>>>> offshored production is up to standards.-
>>> IOW, doing now what they should have been doing all along: assuring
>>> the qualitity of the products bearing their name.
>> uneconomic to do 100% testing - and you'd need to with some suppliers.-
>
> Then the bike resellers are using the wrong suppliers in such cases.
>
yes, but it's hard not to if you're being actively deceived. but to be
fair, /they/ probably feel it's only reasonable for getting low-balled
on the initial bid price - as is the american way.
|
| | | |
Date: 10 Aug 2007 06:51:53
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 20:46:48 -0700, jim beam
<spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote:
>Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>> Then the bike resellers are using the wrong suppliers in such cases.
>>
>
>yes, but it's hard not to if you're being actively deceived. but to be
>fair, /they/ probably feel it's only reasonable for getting low-balled
>on the initial bid price - as is the american way.
So the Raleigh fork problem was active deception? Is that what you
mean?
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | | |
Date: 10 Aug 2007 05:45:13
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 20:46:48 -0700, jim beam
> <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>
>>> Then the bike resellers are using the wrong suppliers in such cases.
>>>
>> yes, but it's hard not to if you're being actively deceived. but to be
>> fair, /they/ probably feel it's only reasonable for getting low-balled
>> on the initial bid price - as is the american way.
>
> So the Raleigh fork problem was active deception? Is that what you
> mean?
i don't understand your question. i mean that the manufacturer telling
the purchaser that it was constructed per spec is the deception - if
that clarifies.
|
| |
Date: 09 Aug 2007 20:12:55
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 9, 10:06 pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net > wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > On Aug 9, 9:03 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:04:49 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> >>> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
> >>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
> >>>>> From the Metheny and Burke e-newsletter today:
> >>>>> Bicycle recall: Raleigh America and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety
> >>>>> Commission are recalling 1,200 Chinese-made Raleigh Cadent bikes with
> >>>>> Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks. The forks can break
> >>>>> during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall. Raleigh
> >>>>> has received three reports of fork failures, resulting in a dislocated
> >>>>> shoulder, a concussion and a broken jaw....
> >>>> I expect that we will see a lot more incidents/accidents like these as
> >>>> cheap CFRP components made with questionable quality control become more
> >>>> common.
> >>> There weren't recalls back in the day before carbon fiber use was
> >>> common?
> >> of course. this is a "china" problem, not a "carbon" problem.-
>
> > Wow, the China bashing is getting a bit much these days. Mattel
> > recalls toys, but it was the fault of the Chinese maker, not Mattel's
> > lack of oversight....or so says the media. Similar situation here -
> > this is Raleigh's problem; in a quest for cheap, they apparently
> > bought from a shoddy vendor, and those exist everywhere in the world.
>
> Maybe the China bashing is just about on the right level. We haven't
> bashed them for good products, only crap they're sending us. Bad food,
> bad automobile tires, bad carbon fiber forks, lead in the paint on kids'
> toys, etc.
>
> Okay, maybe the US companies contracting with the Chinese companies have
> been naive, thinking they'd get what they were paying for, but I'll bet
> that is changing -- fast! There are probably a lot of companies
> rebuilding their quality control organizations to check that their
> offshored production is up to standards.-
IOW, doing now what they should have been doing all along: assuring
the qualitity of the products bearing their name.
|
| | |
Date: 10 Aug 2007 10:32:57
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 20:12:55 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
>On Aug 9, 10:06 pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>> > On Aug 9, 9:03 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> >> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> >>> On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:04:49 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
>> >>> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
>> >>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>> >>>>> From the Metheny and Burke e-newsletter today:
>> >>>>> Bicycle recall: Raleigh America and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety
>> >>>>> Commission are recalling 1,200 Chinese-made Raleigh Cadent bikes with
>> >>>>> Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks. The forks can break
>> >>>>> during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall. Raleigh
>> >>>>> has received three reports of fork failures, resulting in a dislocated
>> >>>>> shoulder, a concussion and a broken jaw....
>> >>>> I expect that we will see a lot more incidents/accidents like these as
>> >>>> cheap CFRP components made with questionable quality control become more
>> >>>> common.
>> >>> There weren't recalls back in the day before carbon fiber use was
>> >>> common?
>> >> of course. this is a "china" problem, not a "carbon" problem.-
>>
>> > Wow, the China bashing is getting a bit much these days. Mattel
>> > recalls toys, but it was the fault of the Chinese maker, not Mattel's
>> > lack of oversight....or so says the media. Similar situation here -
>> > this is Raleigh's problem; in a quest for cheap, they apparently
>> > bought from a shoddy vendor, and those exist everywhere in the world.
>>
>> Maybe the China bashing is just about on the right level. We haven't
>> bashed them for good products, only crap they're sending us. Bad food,
>> bad automobile tires, bad carbon fiber forks, lead in the paint on kids'
>> toys, etc.
>>
>> Okay, maybe the US companies contracting with the Chinese companies have
>> been naive, thinking they'd get what they were paying for, but I'll bet
>> that is changing -- fast! There are probably a lot of companies
>> rebuilding their quality control organizations to check that their
>> offshored production is up to standards.-
>
>
>
>IOW, doing now what they should have been doing all along: assuring
>the qualitity of the products bearing their name.
Why should the presumption be that the Chinese will sell you faulty merchandise
and that each unit needs individual inspection unlike products from real
countries with real manufacturing traditions? That's a question worth actually
thinking about.
If Ozark Bicycles works on my bike and I crash and die are you to blame because
you didn't x-ray the stem to find that the welds were bad. Or, were you also
cheated when sold a mislabeled product that was poorly made.
What allows this world to profitably move along is trust. Violators of that
trust add tremendous costs to all of us. Chinese culture in its current form is
not worthy of the sort of commercial trust necessary to help the world go round.
Ron
|
| | | |
Date: 10 Aug 2007 18:05:38
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
RonSonic wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 20:12:55 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
> <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
>> On Aug 9, 10:06 pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>>> On Aug 9, 9:03 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:04:49 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
>>>>>> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>>> From the Metheny and Burke e-newsletter today:
>>>>>>>> Bicycle recall: Raleigh America and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety
>>>>>>>> Commission are recalling 1,200 Chinese-made Raleigh Cadent bikes with
>>>>>>>> Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks. The forks can break
>>>>>>>> during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall. Raleigh
>>>>>>>> has received three reports of fork failures, resulting in a dislocated
>>>>>>>> shoulder, a concussion and a broken jaw....
>>>>>>> I expect that we will see a lot more incidents/accidents like these as
>>>>>>> cheap CFRP components made with questionable quality control become more
>>>>>>> common.
>>>>>> There weren't recalls back in the day before carbon fiber use was
>>>>>> common?
>>>>> of course. this is a "china" problem, not a "carbon" problem.-
>>>> Wow, the China bashing is getting a bit much these days. Mattel
>>>> recalls toys, but it was the fault of the Chinese maker, not Mattel's
>>>> lack of oversight....or so says the media. Similar situation here -
>>>> this is Raleigh's problem; in a quest for cheap, they apparently
>>>> bought from a shoddy vendor, and those exist everywhere in the world.
>>> Maybe the China bashing is just about on the right level. We haven't
>>> bashed them for good products, only crap they're sending us. Bad food,
>>> bad automobile tires, bad carbon fiber forks, lead in the paint on kids'
>>> toys, etc.
>>>
>>> Okay, maybe the US companies contracting with the Chinese companies have
>>> been naive, thinking they'd get what they were paying for, but I'll bet
>>> that is changing -- fast! There are probably a lot of companies
>>> rebuilding their quality control organizations to check that their
>>> offshored production is up to standards.-
>>
>>
>> IOW, doing now what they should have been doing all along: assuring
>> the qualitity of the products bearing their name.
>
> Why should the presumption be that the Chinese will sell you faulty merchandise
> and that each unit needs individual inspection unlike products from real
> countries with real manufacturing traditions? That's a question worth actually
> thinking about.
>
> If Ozark Bicycles works on my bike and I crash and die are you to blame because
> you didn't x-ray the stem to find that the welds were bad. Or, were you also
> cheated when sold a mislabeled product that was poorly made.
>
> What allows this world to profitably move along is trust. Violators of that
> trust add tremendous costs to all of us. Chinese culture in its current form is
> not worthy of the sort of commercial trust necessary to help the world go round.
I have to agree with pretty everything that "RonSonic" has posted in
this thread so far. Scary, huh?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | |
Date: 09 Aug 2007 20:23:40
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Aug 9, 10:06 pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>> On Aug 9, 9:03 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:04:49 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
>>>>> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>> From the Metheny and Burke e-newsletter today:
>>>>>>> Bicycle recall: Raleigh America and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety
>>>>>>> Commission are recalling 1,200 Chinese-made Raleigh Cadent bikes with
>>>>>>> Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks. The forks can break
>>>>>>> during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall. Raleigh
>>>>>>> has received three reports of fork failures, resulting in a dislocated
>>>>>>> shoulder, a concussion and a broken jaw....
>>>>>> I expect that we will see a lot more incidents/accidents like these as
>>>>>> cheap CFRP components made with questionable quality control become more
>>>>>> common.
>>>>> There weren't recalls back in the day before carbon fiber use was
>>>>> common?
>>>> of course. this is a "china" problem, not a "carbon" problem.-
>>> Wow, the China bashing is getting a bit much these days. Mattel
>>> recalls toys, but it was the fault of the Chinese maker, not Mattel's
>>> lack of oversight....or so says the media. Similar situation here -
>>> this is Raleigh's problem; in a quest for cheap, they apparently
>>> bought from a shoddy vendor, and those exist everywhere in the world.
>> Maybe the China bashing is just about on the right level. We haven't
>> bashed them for good products, only crap they're sending us. Bad food,
>> bad automobile tires, bad carbon fiber forks, lead in the paint on kids'
>> toys, etc.
>>
>> Okay, maybe the US companies contracting with the Chinese companies have
>> been naive, thinking they'd get what they were paying for, but I'll bet
>> that is changing -- fast! There are probably a lot of companies
>> rebuilding their quality control organizations to check that their
>> offshored production is up to standards.-
>
>
>
> IOW, doing now what they should have been doing all along: assuring
> the qualitity of the products bearing their name.
>
uneconomic to do 100% testing - and you'd need to with some suppliers.
|
| |
Date: 09 Aug 2007 19:10:36
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 9, 9:03 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net > wrote:
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> > On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:04:49 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> > <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
>
> >> Tim McNamara wrote:
> >>> From the Metheny and Burke e-newsletter today:
>
> >>> Bicycle recall: Raleigh America and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety
> >>> Commission are recalling 1,200 Chinese-made Raleigh Cadent bikes with
> >>> Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks. The forks can break
> >>> during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall. Raleigh
> >>> has received three reports of fork failures, resulting in a dislocated
> >>> shoulder, a concussion and a broken jaw....
> >> I expect that we will see a lot more incidents/accidents like these as
> >> cheap CFRP components made with questionable quality control become more
> >> common.
>
> > There weren't recalls back in the day before carbon fiber use was
> > common?
>
> of course. this is a "china" problem, not a "carbon" problem.-
Wow, the China bashing is getting a bit much these days. Mattel
recalls toys, but it was the fault of the Chinese maker, not Mattel's
lack of oversight....or so says the media. Similar situation here -
this is Raleigh's problem; in a quest for cheap, they apparently
bought from a shoddy vendor, and those exist everywhere in the world.
|
| | |
Date: 10 Aug 2007 10:23:14
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:10:36 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
>On Aug 9, 9:03 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> > On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:04:49 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
>> > <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> Tim McNamara wrote:
>> >>> From the Metheny and Burke e-newsletter today:
>>
>> >>> Bicycle recall: Raleigh America and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety
>> >>> Commission are recalling 1,200 Chinese-made Raleigh Cadent bikes with
>> >>> Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks. The forks can break
>> >>> during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall. Raleigh
>> >>> has received three reports of fork failures, resulting in a dislocated
>> >>> shoulder, a concussion and a broken jaw....
>> >> I expect that we will see a lot more incidents/accidents like these as
>> >> cheap CFRP components made with questionable quality control become more
>> >> common.
>>
>> > There weren't recalls back in the day before carbon fiber use was
>> > common?
>>
>> of course. this is a "china" problem, not a "carbon" problem.-
>
>Wow, the China bashing is getting a bit much these days. Mattel
>recalls toys, but it was the fault of the Chinese maker, not Mattel's
>lack of oversight.
The paint was specified in the contract and the preproduction samples were
correct as were early production. Mattel was defrauded.
>Similar situation here -
>this is Raleigh's problem; in a quest for cheap, they apparently
>bought from a shoddy vendor, and those exist everywhere in the world.
This has always been the problem in dealing with third world countries. The
difference is that different cultures have different standards for commercial
honesty. The Dominican Republic is a world away from Haiti in terms of
compliance with manufacturing standards. China you might recall first came to QC
attention when the aircraft industry got flooded with misgraded fasteners 20
years ago. Communists in general and Chinese whatever the hell sort of
tyrannical bastards run that place have never had any regard for consumer goods
beyond the fact that they could be sold for money. Not even honest profit, just
so they can get money from it they're happy.
It's a China problem. If you contract to buy a thing and find that the product
has been made with inadequate or dangerous materials it is the supplier's fault.
Ron
|
| | |
Date: 09 Aug 2007 20:22:07
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Aug 9, 9:03 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>> On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:04:49 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
>>> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>> From the Metheny and Burke e-newsletter today:
>>>>> Bicycle recall: Raleigh America and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety
>>>>> Commission are recalling 1,200 Chinese-made Raleigh Cadent bikes with
>>>>> Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks. The forks can break
>>>>> during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall. Raleigh
>>>>> has received three reports of fork failures, resulting in a dislocated
>>>>> shoulder, a concussion and a broken jaw....
>>>> I expect that we will see a lot more incidents/accidents like these as
>>>> cheap CFRP components made with questionable quality control become more
>>>> common.
>>> There weren't recalls back in the day before carbon fiber use was
>>> common?
>> of course. this is a "china" problem, not a "carbon" problem.-
>
> Wow, the China bashing is getting a bit much these days. Mattel
> recalls toys, but it was the fault of the Chinese maker, not Mattel's
> lack of oversight....or so says the media. Similar situation here -
> this is Raleigh's problem; in a quest for cheap, they apparently
> bought from a shoddy vendor, and those exist everywhere in the world.
>
not as simple as that. you can give a specification, very exact, and
the supplier certifies, with testing data, that it meets spec. and the
samples at the top of the box comply! but the stuff lower down doesn't.
and it's the same on every shipment.
it's a cultural discontinuity - a deal is not a deal unless someone is
getting hosed. and guess how this works out for gullible westerners
that don't understand and can't be bothered to stick about and learn the
language or the customs. best way to do business is to use a trustable
intermediary - preferably "abc" [american born chinese]. or get your
stuff made in taiwan.
|
| | | |
Date: 10 Aug 2007 10:51:52
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 20:22:07 -0700, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote:
>Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>> On Aug 9, 9:03 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:04:49 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
>>>> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>> From the Metheny and Burke e-newsletter today:
>>>>>> Bicycle recall: Raleigh America and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety
>>>>>> Commission are recalling 1,200 Chinese-made Raleigh Cadent bikes with
>>>>>> Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks. The forks can break
>>>>>> during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall. Raleigh
>>>>>> has received three reports of fork failures, resulting in a dislocated
>>>>>> shoulder, a concussion and a broken jaw....
>>>>> I expect that we will see a lot more incidents/accidents like these as
>>>>> cheap CFRP components made with questionable quality control become more
>>>>> common.
>>>> There weren't recalls back in the day before carbon fiber use was
>>>> common?
>>> of course. this is a "china" problem, not a "carbon" problem.-
>>
>> Wow, the China bashing is getting a bit much these days. Mattel
>> recalls toys, but it was the fault of the Chinese maker, not Mattel's
>> lack of oversight....or so says the media. Similar situation here -
>> this is Raleigh's problem; in a quest for cheap, they apparently
>> bought from a shoddy vendor, and those exist everywhere in the world.
>>
>
>not as simple as that. you can give a specification, very exact, and
>the supplier certifies, with testing data, that it meets spec. and the
>samples at the top of the box comply! but the stuff lower down doesn't.
> and it's the same on every shipment.
>
>it's a cultural discontinuity - a deal is not a deal unless someone is
>getting hosed. and guess how this works out for gullible westerners
>that don't understand and can't be bothered to stick about and learn the
>language or the customs. best way to do business is to use a trustable
>intermediary - preferably "abc" [american born chinese]. or get your
>stuff made in taiwan.
The other approach is to have your own factory. One of the MI giants Behringer
does that and it works. One of the things that we overlook is that the makers of
these products have no actual history with them. Here a guy building a guitar
grew up around guitars, he knows what they are and why you'd want one and how to
use it and even if he never played more than air guitar he understands that
there are specific qualities that are desirable. The guy in the Chinese factory
not only doesn't understand guitars he doesn't understand the culture that uses
them. Same with fancy bicycles and childrens toys and all these other things.
Dog food, who cares what you feed dogs. Tires for cars - they have no
beneficial characteristics whatsoever other than that people will give you money
for those black toroids. Bolts that have more radial lines on the head can be
sold for more than bolts with fewer lines.
A Taiwanese bicycle factory is run by bike people - they don't have those on the
mainland and if they do, they aren't in charge of anything.
Ron
|
| | |
Date: 09 Aug 2007 20:06:03
From: Colin Campbell
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Aug 9, 9:03 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>> On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:04:49 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
>>> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>> From the Metheny and Burke e-newsletter today:
>>>>> Bicycle recall: Raleigh America and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety
>>>>> Commission are recalling 1,200 Chinese-made Raleigh Cadent bikes with
>>>>> Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks. The forks can break
>>>>> during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall. Raleigh
>>>>> has received three reports of fork failures, resulting in a dislocated
>>>>> shoulder, a concussion and a broken jaw....
>>>> I expect that we will see a lot more incidents/accidents like these as
>>>> cheap CFRP components made with questionable quality control become more
>>>> common.
>>> There weren't recalls back in the day before carbon fiber use was
>>> common?
>> of course. this is a "china" problem, not a "carbon" problem.-
>
> Wow, the China bashing is getting a bit much these days. Mattel
> recalls toys, but it was the fault of the Chinese maker, not Mattel's
> lack of oversight....or so says the media. Similar situation here -
> this is Raleigh's problem; in a quest for cheap, they apparently
> bought from a shoddy vendor, and those exist everywhere in the world.
>
Maybe the China bashing is just about on the right level. We haven't
bashed them for good products, only crap they're sending us. Bad food,
bad automobile tires, bad carbon fiber forks, lead in the paint on kids'
toys, etc.
Okay, maybe the US companies contracting with the Chinese companies have
been naive, thinking they'd get what they were paying for, but I'll bet
that is changing -- fast! There are probably a lot of companies
rebuilding their quality control organizations to check that their
offshored production is up to standards.
|
| | | |
Date: 09 Aug 2007 23:43:55
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Colin Campbell wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>> On Aug 9, 9:03 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:04:49 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
>>>> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>> From the Metheny and Burke e-newsletter today:
>>>>>> Bicycle recall: Raleigh America and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety
>>>>>> Commission are recalling 1,200 Chinese-made Raleigh Cadent bikes with
>>>>>> Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks. The forks can break
>>>>>> during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall.
>>>>>> Raleigh
>>>>>> has received three reports of fork failures, resulting in a
>>>>>> dislocated
>>>>>> shoulder, a concussion and a broken jaw....
>>>>> I expect that we will see a lot more incidents/accidents like these as
>>>>> cheap CFRP components made with questionable quality control become
>>>>> more
>>>>> common.
>>>> There weren't recalls back in the day before carbon fiber use was
>>>> common?
>>> of course. this is a "china" problem, not a "carbon" problem.-
>>
>> Wow, the China bashing is getting a bit much these days. Mattel
>> recalls toys, but it was the fault of the Chinese maker, not Mattel's
>> lack of oversight....or so says the media. Similar situation here -
>> this is Raleigh's problem; in a quest for cheap, they apparently
>> bought from a shoddy vendor, and those exist everywhere in the world.
>>
> Maybe the China bashing is just about on the right level. We haven't
> bashed them for good products, only crap they're sending us. Bad food,
> bad automobile tires, bad carbon fiber forks, lead in the paint on kids'
> toys, etc.
>
> Okay, maybe the US companies contracting with the Chinese companies have
> been naive, thinking they'd get what they were paying for, but I'll bet
> that is changing -- fast! There are probably a lot of companies
> rebuilding their quality control organizations to check that their
> offshored production is up to standards.
The US companies are buying at the OEM level from China solely because
it is the lowest cost source. Often they are indeed getting what they
pay for.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| |
Date: 09 Aug 2007 19:04:49
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Tim McNamara wrote:
> From the Metheny and Burke e-newsletter today:
>
> Bicycle recall: Raleigh America and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety
> Commission are recalling 1,200 Chinese-made Raleigh Cadent bikes with
> Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks. The forks can break
> during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall. Raleigh
> has received three reports of fork failures, resulting in a dislocated
> shoulder, a concussion and a broken jaw....
I expect that we will see a lot more incidents/accidents like these as
cheap CFRP components made with questionable quality control become more
common.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | |
Date: 09 Aug 2007 20:23:37
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:04:49 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote:
>Tim McNamara wrote:
>> From the Metheny and Burke e-newsletter today:
>>
>> Bicycle recall: Raleigh America and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety
>> Commission are recalling 1,200 Chinese-made Raleigh Cadent bikes with
>> Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks. The forks can break
>> during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall. Raleigh
>> has received three reports of fork failures, resulting in a dislocated
>> shoulder, a concussion and a broken jaw....
>
>I expect that we will see a lot more incidents/accidents like these as
>cheap CFRP components made with questionable quality control become more
>common.
There weren't recalls back in the day before carbon fiber use was
common?
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | |
Date: 09 Aug 2007 19:03:29
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:04:49 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote:
>
>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>> From the Metheny and Burke e-newsletter today:
>>>
>>> Bicycle recall: Raleigh America and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety
>>> Commission are recalling 1,200 Chinese-made Raleigh Cadent bikes with
>>> Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks. The forks can break
>>> during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall. Raleigh
>>> has received three reports of fork failures, resulting in a dislocated
>>> shoulder, a concussion and a broken jaw....
>> I expect that we will see a lot more incidents/accidents like these as
>> cheap CFRP components made with questionable quality control become more
>> common.
>
> There weren't recalls back in the day before carbon fiber use was
> common?
of course. this is a "china" problem, not a "carbon" problem.
|
| | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 22:05:40
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 11, 11:28 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me > wrote:
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> > b...@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> >> In practice, though there are all sorts of dirty tricks
> >> in the history of labor representation battles, in the
> >> past few decades the vast majority of pressure has been
> >> from employers on employees at or before the election
> >> stage (including closing plants that vote for unions).
> >> So pretending that this is some vast conspiracy to coerce
> >> lots of people into unions is just noise....
>
> > Hey, if people do not like working in an unionized work place, they
> > are free to quit and find another job. The FREE MARKET will provide
> > non-union jobs if there is a demand for them, right?
>
> The point is that a workplace workforce should be able to vote yay or nay
> without peer- much less goon-pressure.
I'm glad to hear you agree that we need tough
enforcement of the right to organize without
coercion from either employer or organizer. Let's
get together and write our Congressmen demanding
the NLRB wake up and start enforcing penalties
that mean something.
Solidarity forever,
Ben
|
| | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 02:16:18
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article
<1186956340.294985.165060@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com >
,
"bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org >
wrote:
> On Aug 11, 11:28 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
> > Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> > > b...@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
>
> > >> In practice, though there are all sorts of dirty tricks
> > >> in the history of labor representation battles, in the
> > >> past few decades the vast majority of pressure has been
> > >> from employers on employees at or before the election
> > >> stage (including closing plants that vote for unions).
> > >> So pretending that this is some vast conspiracy to coerce
> > >> lots of people into unions is just noise....
> >
> > > Hey, if people do not like working in an unionized work place, they
> > > are free to quit and find another job. The FREE MARKET will provide
> > > non-union jobs if there is a demand for them, right?
> >
> > The point is that a workplace workforce should be able to vote yay or nay
> > without peer- much less goon-pressure.
>
> I'm glad to hear you agree that we need tough
> enforcement of the right to organize without
> coercion from either employer or organizer. Let's
> get together and write our Congressmen demanding
> the NLRB wake up and start enforcing penalties
> that mean something.
>
> Solidarity forever,
Or until somebody stabs somebody else in the back.
Unions are great in theory. A brotherhood of workers.
What we get is two masters. Typically when the company
arrays itself against the workers we get the prisoner's
dilemma. Some workers will always betray other workers.
Best is that the brotherhood remain leaderless,
anonymous, and shut-the-hell-up.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 23:02:59
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Michael Press of Possum Lodge wrote:
> In article
> <1186956340.294985.165060@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
> ,
> "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On Aug 11, 11:28 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>>> b...@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
>>>>> In practice, though there are all sorts of dirty tricks
>>>>> in the history of labor representation battles, in the
>>>>> past few decades the vast majority of pressure has been
>>>>> from employers on employees at or before the election
>>>>> stage (including closing plants that vote for unions).
>>>>> So pretending that this is some vast conspiracy to coerce
>>>>> lots of people into unions is just noise....
>>>> Hey, if people do not like working in an unionized work place, they
>>>> are free to quit and find another job. The FREE MARKET will provide
>>>> non-union jobs if there is a demand for them, right?
>>> The point is that a workplace workforce should be able to vote yay or nay
>>> without peer- much less goon-pressure.
>> I'm glad to hear you agree that we need tough
>> enforcement of the right to organize without
>> coercion from either employer or organizer. Let's
>> get together and write our Congressmen demanding
>> the NLRB wake up and start enforcing penalties
>> that mean something.
>>
>> Solidarity forever,
>
> Or until somebody stabs somebody else in the back.
>
> Unions are great in theory. A brotherhood of workers.
> What we get is two masters. Typically when the company
> arrays itself against the workers we get the prisoner's
> dilemma. Some workers will always betray other workers.
>
> Best is that the brotherhood remain leaderless,
> anonymous, and shut-the-hell-up.
What about a co-operative system where the workers (and not a state
bureaucracy) owned the businesses? Therefore, their profits would depend
on their efforts, and they would earn a fair share of the profit from
their labor?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct wave
Point” - gene daniels
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 09:50:49
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article
<46bfcbdb$0$23395$88260bb3@free.teranews.com >,
"Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote:
> Michael Press of Possum Lodge wrote:
> > In article
> > <1186956340.294985.165060@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
> > ,
> > "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Aug 11, 11:28 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
> >>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> >>>> b...@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> >>>>> In practice, though there are all sorts of dirty tricks
> >>>>> in the history of labor representation battles, in the
> >>>>> past few decades the vast majority of pressure has been
> >>>>> from employers on employees at or before the election
> >>>>> stage (including closing plants that vote for unions).
> >>>>> So pretending that this is some vast conspiracy to coerce
> >>>>> lots of people into unions is just noise....
> >>>> Hey, if people do not like working in an unionized work place, they
> >>>> are free to quit and find another job. The FREE MARKET will provide
> >>>> non-union jobs if there is a demand for them, right?
> >>> The point is that a workplace workforce should be able to vote yay or nay
> >>> without peer- much less goon-pressure.
> >> I'm glad to hear you agree that we need tough
> >> enforcement of the right to organize without
> >> coercion from either employer or organizer. Let's
> >> get together and write our Congressmen demanding
> >> the NLRB wake up and start enforcing penalties
> >> that mean something.
> >>
> >> Solidarity forever,
> >
> > Or until somebody stabs somebody else in the back.
> >
> > Unions are great in theory. A brotherhood of workers.
> > What we get is two masters. Typically when the company
> > arrays itself against the workers we get the prisoner's
> > dilemma. Some workers will always betray other workers.
> >
> > Best is that the brotherhood remain leaderless,
> > anonymous, and shut-the-hell-up.
>
> What about a co-operative system where the workers (and not a state
> bureaucracy) owned the businesses? Therefore, their profits would depend
> on their efforts, and they would earn a fair share of the profit from
> their labor?
Is this serious, irony, or troll bait?
The song is over one-hundred-fifty years old.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 21:26:15
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <46bfcbdb$0$23395$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
> "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote:
>
>> Michael Press of Possum Lodge wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <1186956340.294985.165060@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
>>> ,
>>> "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Aug 11, 11:28 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>>>>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>>>>> b...@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
>>>>>>> In practice, though there are all sorts of dirty tricks
>>>>>>> in the history of labor representation battles, in the
>>>>>>> past few decades the vast majority of pressure has been
>>>>>>> from employers on employees at or before the election
>>>>>>> stage (including closing plants that vote for unions).
>>>>>>> So pretending that this is some vast conspiracy to coerce
>>>>>>> lots of people into unions is just noise....
>>>>>> Hey, if people do not like working in an unionized work place, they
>>>>>> are free to quit and find another job. The FREE MARKET will provide
>>>>>> non-union jobs if there is a demand for them, right?
>>>>> The point is that a workplace workforce should be able to vote yay or nay
>>>>> without peer- much less goon-pressure.
>>>> I'm glad to hear you agree that we need tough
>>>> enforcement of the right to organize without
>>>> coercion from either employer or organizer. Let's
>>>> get together and write our Congressmen demanding
>>>> the NLRB wake up and start enforcing penalties
>>>> that mean something.
>>>>
>>>> Solidarity forever,
>>> Or until somebody stabs somebody else in the back.
>>>
>>> Unions are great in theory. A brotherhood of workers.
>>> What we get is two masters. Typically when the company
>>> arrays itself against the workers we get the prisoner's
>>> dilemma. Some workers will always betray other workers.
>>>
>>> Best is that the brotherhood remain leaderless,
>>> anonymous, and shut-the-hell-up.
>> What about a co-operative system where the workers (and not a state
>> bureaucracy) owned the businesses? Therefore, their profits would depend
>> on their efforts, and they would earn a fair share of the profit from
>> their labor?
>
> Is this serious, irony, or troll bait?
> The song is over one-hundred-fifty years old.
If you have to ask, you obviously don't understand.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 09:20:59
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article <46bfcbdb$0$23395$88260bb3@free.teranews.com >,
"Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote:
> Michael Press of Possum Lodge wrote:
> > In article <1186956340.294985.165060@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
> > ,
> > "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On Aug 11, 11:28 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
> >>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> >>>> b...@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> >>>>> In practice, though there are all sorts of dirty tricks in the
> >>>>> history of labor representation battles, in the past few
> >>>>> decades the vast majority of pressure has been from employers
> >>>>> on employees at or before the election stage (including closing
> >>>>> plants that vote for unions). So pretending that this is some
> >>>>> vast conspiracy to coerce lots of people into unions is just
> >>>>> noise....
> >>>> Hey, if people do not like working in an unionized work place,
> >>>> they are free to quit and find another job. The FREE MARKET will
> >>>> provide non-union jobs if there is a demand for them, right?
> >>> The point is that a workplace workforce should be able to vote
> >>> yay or nay without peer- much less goon-pressure.
> >> I'm glad to hear you agree that we need tough enforcement of the
> >> right to organize without coercion from either employer or
> >> organizer. Let's get together and write our Congressmen demanding
> >> the NLRB wake up and start enforcing penalties that mean
> >> something.
> >>
> >> Solidarity forever,
> >
> > Or until somebody stabs somebody else in the back.
> >
> > Unions are great in theory. A brotherhood of workers. What we get
> > is two masters. Typically when the company arrays itself against
> > the workers we get the prisoner's dilemma. Some workers will always
> > betray other workers.
> >
> > Best is that the brotherhood remain leaderless, anonymous, and
> > shut-the-hell-up.
>
> What about a co-operative system where the workers (and not a state
> bureaucracy) owned the businesses? Therefore, their profits would
> depend on their efforts, and they would earn a fair share of the
> profit from their labor?
Cooperatives are a good economic model in many situations. My wife is
the general manager of a small grass-fed dairy cooperative and having
that set up has been able to double the incomes of the farmers to be
actually above the poverty line. I buy all my food from cooperatives,
which in turn tend to buy from other cooperatives. I bank with a
cooperative. My wife's health insurance company is a cooperative. It's
an economic model I like.
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 23:13:24
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
> Michael Press of Possum Lodge wrote:
>> "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:
>>> "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>>>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
-snip human nature from prehistory until last week-
Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> What about a co-operative system where the workers (and not a state
> bureaucracy) owned the businesses? Therefore, their profits would depend
> on their efforts, and they would earn a fair share of the profit from
> their labor?
Check out Hugo Chavez' system for breaking up privately owned land into
'autonomous collectives' and get back to us. hint: food shortage
I've worked in such a dismal environment. Have you?
Those sorts of schemes give rise to the quip of 'making everyone equal
by chopping the heads off the tall ones'.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 09:24:51
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article <13bvminfqshs7c5@corp.supernews.com >,
A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> > Michael Press of Possum Lodge wrote:
> >> "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:
> >>> "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
> >>>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> -snip human nature from prehistory until last week-
>
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> > What about a co-operative system where the workers (and not a state
> > bureaucracy) owned the businesses? Therefore, their profits would
> > depend on their efforts, and they would earn a fair share of the
> > profit from their labor?
>
> Check out Hugo Chavez' system for breaking up privately owned land
> into 'autonomous collectives' and get back to us. hint: food
> shortage
And do you think this is what a cooperative is?
> I've worked in such a dismal environment. Have you? Those sorts of
> schemes give rise to the quip of 'making everyone equal by chopping
> the heads off the tall ones'.
I think you need to get a more accurate picture of what a cooperative
actually is. A good place to start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_Pioneers
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 23:24:43
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Andrew Muzi wrote:
>> Michael Press of Possum Lodge wrote:
>>> "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:
>>>> "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>>>>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> -snip human nature from prehistory until last week-
>
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> What about a co-operative system where the workers (and not a state
>> bureaucracy) owned the businesses? Therefore, their profits would
>> depend on their efforts, and they would earn a fair share of the
>> profit from their labor?
>
> Check out Hugo Chavez' system for breaking up privately owned land into
> 'autonomous collectives' and get back to us. hint: food shortage
Gee, and I thought that the food shortage was from the IMF and World
Bank demanding that food crops be replaced with export cash crops!
> I've worked in such a dismal environment. Have you?
> Those sorts of schemes give rise to the quip of 'making everyone equal
> by chopping the heads off the tall ones'.
It can not be any more dismal than some of the places I have worked that
were basically sweatshop conditions (including some in Madison, WI).
Too hot or cold, noisy, dangerous, painful (repetitive motion, too heavy
lifting), no benefits, no time off, wages too low to rent an apartment
AND buy food. All while being treated as sub-human by the management.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition!"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 07:44:09
From: DI
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
"Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote in message
news:46bfd0f6$0$16309$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> It can not be any more dismal than some of the places I have worked that
> were basically sweatshop conditions (including some in Madison, WI). Too
> hot or cold, noisy, dangerous, painful (repetitive motion, too heavy
> lifting), no benefits, no time off, wages too low to rent an apartment AND
> buy food. All while being treated as sub-human by the management.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
We've all had bad jobs during our life especially in our youth, just part of
growing up. To bad you expected a silver spoon and decided to become a
socialist.
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 21:23:27
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
DI (who?) anonymously snipes:
> "Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote in message
> news:46bfd0f6$0$16309$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>
>> It can not be any more dismal than some of the places I have worked that
>> were basically sweatshop conditions (including some in Madison, WI). Too
>> hot or cold, noisy, dangerous, painful (repetitive motion, too heavy
>> lifting), no benefits, no time off, wages too low to rent an apartment AND
>> buy food. All while being treated as sub-human by the management.
>>
>> --
>> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
>
> We've all had bad jobs during our life especially in our youth, just part of
> growing up. To bad you expected a silver spoon and decided to become a
> socialist.
Yes, and I have permanent joint injury damage to show for working at
these shitty jobs [1], so go stuff yourself. A lot of my co-workers at
those jobs also suffered serious injury.
[1] And before you bring it up, my total injury compensation was a
couple of hundred dollars worth of medical treatment.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 22:15:17
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> Andrew Muzi wrote:
>>> Michael Press of Possum Lodge wrote:
>>>> "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:
>>>>> "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>>>>>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> -snip human nature from prehistory until last week-
>>
>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>> What about a co-operative system where the workers (and not a state
>>> bureaucracy) owned the businesses? Therefore, their profits would
>>> depend on their efforts, and they would earn a fair share of the
>>> profit from their labor?
>>
>> Check out Hugo Chavez' system for breaking up privately owned land
>> into 'autonomous collectives' and get back to us. hint: food
>> shortage
>
> Gee, and I thought that the food shortage was from the IMF and World
> Bank demanding that food crops be replaced with export cash crops!
>
>> I've worked in such a dismal environment. Have you?
>> Those sorts of schemes give rise to the quip of 'making everyone
>> equal by chopping the heads off the tall ones'.
>
> It can not be any more dismal than some of the places I have worked
> that were basically sweatshop conditions (including some in Madison,
> WI). Too hot or cold, noisy, dangerous, painful (repetitive motion,
> too heavy lifting), no benefits, no time off, wages too low to rent
> an apartment AND buy food. All while being treated as sub-human by
> the management.
You worked as a blogger?
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> "I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition!"
--
"Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving us
wordy evidence of the fact." -- George Eliot
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 00:21:30
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Bill Sornson wrote:
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> Andrew Muzi wrote:
>>>> Michael Press of Possum Lodge wrote:
>>>>> "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:
>>>>>> "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>>>>>>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>> -snip human nature from prehistory until last week-
>>>
>>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>>> What about a co-operative system where the workers (and not a state
>>>> bureaucracy) owned the businesses? Therefore, their profits would
>>>> depend on their efforts, and they would earn a fair share of the
>>>> profit from their labor?
>>> Check out Hugo Chavez' system for breaking up privately owned land
>>> into 'autonomous collectives' and get back to us. hint: food
>>> shortage
>> Gee, and I thought that the food shortage was from the IMF and World
>> Bank demanding that food crops be replaced with export cash crops!
>>
>>> I've worked in such a dismal environment. Have you?
>>> Those sorts of schemes give rise to the quip of 'making everyone
>>> equal by chopping the heads off the tall ones'.
>> It can not be any more dismal than some of the places I have worked
>> that were basically sweatshop conditions (including some in Madison,
>> WI). Too hot or cold, noisy, dangerous, painful (repetitive motion,
>> too heavy lifting), no benefits, no time off, wages too low to rent
>> an apartment AND buy food. All while being treated as sub-human by
>> the management.
>
> You worked as a blogger?
Keep your day job.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition!"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 12 Aug 2007 04:10:59
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 11, 6:01 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me > wrote:
> Bill Sornson wrote:
> > Tim McNamara wrote:
> >> All things that are increasingly curtailed by the New Right in the
> >> United States.
>
> > Along with smoking, baby formula, transfat, lightbulbs...
>
> > Oh, wait.
>
> > LOL
>
> Oh yeah, almost forgot anonymous union votes. Dems can't have THAT! (But
> they did have the nerve to name their bill some disingenuous, misleading
> title -- "Employee Free Choice Act" -- that completely belies its true
> intent.)
>
> http://republicanleader.house.gov/blog/?p=40 (figure you'd love the source)
You make it sound as if this bill takes existing
anonymous elections and _replaces_ them with a
non-anonymous process. That is a misrepresentation,
because the non-anonymous process of signing union
cards is already part of existing labor law. The
bill proposes a variety of things, but the particular
proposition you're talking about takes the current
two step process:
Current:
1. Union organizers have to collect signed cards or
petitions from some large percentage of employees to
demand union recognition or a vote.
2. If the employer desires, they may demand a
secret-ballot election.
EFCA:
1. If the union gets over 50% of the employees to
sign cards, they can demand recognition without having
to go through the election.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_Free_Choice_Act
(a relatively nonpartisan page).
In practice, though there are all sorts of dirty tricks
in the history of labor representation battles, in the
past few decades the vast majority of pressure has been
from employers on employees at or before the election
stage (including closing plants that vote for unions).
So pretending that this is some vast conspiracy to coerce
lots of people into unions is just noise. As the
wikipedia article says of the contested provision:
"It should be noted that these proposed changes
would bring US labour relations in line with almost
every other jurisdiction in the industrialized world."
IMO, the contested provision could be less important
in the long run than an NLRB with the teeth to prevent
retaliation against employees who attempt to unionize.
(I think even if you don't like unions, retaliation
against employees is recognizable as dirty pool.)
However, an NLRB with teeth isn't likely to happen in
the near future. The EFCA also won't pass in this
Senate anyway due to the cloture rule. That is, it's
been filibustered, but they (we) no longer make the
Senators actually stay up all night reading the phone
book, which if you ask me is a damn shame. If we made
the Senators work for their power, the Senate might
start demanding a union itself.
Ben
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Date: 11 Aug 2007 23:37:24
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> On Aug 11, 6:01 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>> All things that are increasingly curtailed by the New Right in the
>>>> United States.
>>> Along with smoking, baby formula, transfat, lightbulbs...
>>> Oh, wait.
>>> LOL
>> Oh yeah, almost forgot anonymous union votes. Dems can't have THAT! (But
>> they did have the nerve to name their bill some disingenuous, misleading
>> title -- "Employee Free Choice Act" -- that completely belies its true
>> intent.)
>>
>> http://republicanleader.house.gov/blog/?p=40 (figure you'd love the source)
>
> You make it sound as if this bill takes existing
> anonymous elections and _replaces_ them with a
> non-anonymous process. That is a misrepresentation,
> because the non-anonymous process of signing union
> cards is already part of existing labor law. The
> bill proposes a variety of things, but the particular
> proposition you're talking about takes the current
> two step process:
>
> Current:
> 1. Union organizers have to collect signed cards or
> petitions from some large percentage of employees to
> demand union recognition or a vote.
> 2. If the employer desires, they may demand a
> secret-ballot election.
>
> EFCA:
> 1. If the union gets over 50% of the employees to
> sign cards, they can demand recognition without having
> to go through the election.
>
> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_Free_Choice_Act
> (a relatively nonpartisan page).
>
> In practice, though there are all sorts of dirty tricks
> in the history of labor representation battles, in the
> past few decades the vast majority of pressure has been
> from employers on employees at or before the election
> stage (including closing plants that vote for unions).
> So pretending that this is some vast conspiracy to coerce
> lots of people into unions is just noise....
Hey, if people do not like working in an unionized work place, they are
free to quit and find another job. The FREE MARKET will provide
non-union jobs if there is a demand for them, right?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
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Date: 12 Aug 2007 08:41:07
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 23:37:24 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote:
>bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
>> On Aug 11, 6:01 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>> All things that are increasingly curtailed by the New Right in the
>>>>> United States.
>>>> Along with smoking, baby formula, transfat, lightbulbs...
>>>> Oh, wait.
>>>> LOL
>>> Oh yeah, almost forgot anonymous union votes. Dems can't have THAT! (But
>>> they did have the nerve to name their bill some disingenuous, misleading
>>> title -- "Employee Free Choice Act" -- that completely belies its true
>>> intent.)
>>>
>>> http://republicanleader.house.gov/blog/?p=40 (figure you'd love the source)
>>
>> You make it sound as if this bill takes existing
>> anonymous elections and _replaces_ them with a
>> non-anonymous process. That is a misrepresentation,
>> because the non-anonymous process of signing union
>> cards is already part of existing labor law. The
>> bill proposes a variety of things, but the particular
>> proposition you're talking about takes the current
>> two step process:
>>
>> Current:
>> 1. Union organizers have to collect signed cards or
>> petitions from some large percentage of employees to
>> demand union recognition or a vote.
>> 2. If the employer desires, they may demand a
>> secret-ballot election.
>>
>> EFCA:
>> 1. If the union gets over 50% of the employees to
>> sign cards, they can demand recognition without having
>> to go through the election.
>>
>> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_Free_Choice_Act
>> (a relatively nonpartisan page).
>>
>> In practice, though there are all sorts of dirty tricks
>> in the history of labor representation battles, in the
>> past few decades the vast majority of pressure has been
>> from employers on employees at or before the election
>> stage (including closing plants that vote for unions).
>> So pretending that this is some vast conspiracy to coerce
>> lots of people into unions is just noise....
>
>Hey, if people do not like working in an unionized work place, they are
>free to quit and find another job. The FREE MARKET will provide
>non-union jobs if there is a demand for them, right?
Unions are a very nice part of the free market. So long as the regulations
concerning them are not so extensive or unreasonably biased as to create an
unfree market.
Ron
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 10:17:41
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 13, 6:49 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0...@invailid.com > wrote:
> Jay Beattie wrote:
> > On Aug 13, 12:26 pm, Andrew Price <ajpr...@free.fr> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 01:16:34 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
>
> >> <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
> >>> is the longshoreman thing common? Are they making $300K year on
> >>> $30+/hour?
> >> I doubt it, as there aren't enough hours in a year for them to reach
> >> $300K at $30 per hour, even working round the clock, 7 days a week...
>
> > Seehttp://tinyurl.com/2phjlz Several walking bosses were approaching
> > $400K. You don't understand wage guarantees. Read the CBA, and it
> > will become clear how a longshoreman can "work" eight hours in one
> > hour. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> So it is not just lawyers that overcharge for their time? ;)
>
> Many of us do the opposite (including some bicycle mechanics who
> undercharge for their labor).
Do you work for free? I do. I am expected to. I even do free work
for bicycle causes. See e.g. Bicycle Transp. Alliance, Inc. v. City of
Portland, By and Through 133 Or.App. 422, 891 P.2d 692, BICYCLE
TRANSPORTATION ALLIANCE v. DEPARTMENT OF LAND CONSERVATION AND
DEVELOPMENT, LUBA Nos. 92-213(Remanded), 92-214, and 92-215.
Also, my rate is low, and it is set by the market. It is not set
through extortion and the fear of walk out, shut down, slow down, etc.
It is not set by the government or in combination with other firms. If
a client does not like my rate or work, they go elsewhere. If I lie on
my bills, I lose my client and my ticket to practice.
If I don't bill and collect, I don't eat. Try running your own
business some time. You will then understand what it means to be an
employer. -- Jay Beattie.
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 21:12:41
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Jay Beattie wrote:
> On Aug 13, 6:49 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
>> Jay Beattie wrote:
>>> On Aug 13, 12:26 pm, Andrew Price <ajpr...@free.fr> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 01:16:34 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
>>>> <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>>>>> is the longshoreman thing common? Are they making $300K year on
>>>>> $30+/hour?
>>>> I doubt it, as there aren't enough hours in a year for them to reach
>>>> $300K at $30 per hour, even working round the clock, 7 days a week...
>>> Seehttp://tinyurl.com/2phjlz Several walking bosses were approaching
>>> $400K. You don't understand wage guarantees. Read the CBA, and it
>>> will become clear how a longshoreman can "work" eight hours in one
>>> hour. -- Jay Beattie.
>> So it is not just lawyers that overcharge for their time? ;)
>>
>> Many of us do the opposite (including some bicycle mechanics who
>> undercharge for their labor).
>
> Do you work for free?
I am paid for 2000 hours of work, but typically work almost 3000 hours.
So do a lot of other people who are both "exempt" and lower middle class.
> I do. I am expected to. I even do free work
> for bicycle causes. See e.g. Bicycle Transp. Alliance, Inc. v. City of
> Portland, By and Through 133 Or.App. 422, 891 P.2d 692, BICYCLE
> TRANSPORTATION ALLIANCE v. DEPARTMENT OF LAND CONSERVATION AND
> DEVELOPMENT, LUBA Nos. 92-213(Remanded), 92-214, and 92-215.
>
> Also, my rate is low, and it is set by the market. It is not set
> through extortion and the fear of walk out, shut down, slow down, etc.
> It is not set by the government or in combination with other firms. If
> a client does not like my rate or work, they go elsewhere. If I lie on
> my bills, I lose my client and my ticket to practice.
The comment about lawyers was not intended to reflect on Mr. Jay
Beattie, as should have been obvious by the ending emoticon. However,
there have been cases of lawyers billing our more that 24 hours per day,
which is quite amazing productivity.
> If I don't bill and collect, I don't eat. Try running your own
> business some time. You will then understand what it means to be an
> employer.
I am aware that quite of few small businesspersons pay themselves less
than the employees when business is slow. However, these are not the
people bribing the government by attending $1000+/plate fund raising
dinners.
There are executives that make HUNDREDS of times more than the median
wage in their companies. These are the same people who often do
everything in their power to depress wages so they can have more money,
even though they make enough in ONE (1) year to retire at an upper
middle class standard of living.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 18:20:52
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 13, 12:26 pm, Andrew Price <ajpr...@free.fr > wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 01:16:34 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
>
> <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
> >is the longshoreman thing common? Are they making $300K year on
> >$30+/hour?
>
> I doubt it, as there aren't enough hours in a year for them to reach
> $300K at $30 per hour, even working round the clock, 7 days a week...
See http://tinyurl.com/2phjlz Several walking bosses were approaching
$400K. You don't understand wage guarantees. Read the CBA, and it
will become clear how a longshoreman can "work" eight hours in one
hour. -- Jay Beattie.
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 20:49:37
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Jay Beattie wrote:
> On Aug 13, 12:26 pm, Andrew Price <ajpr...@free.fr> wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 01:16:34 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
>>
>> <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>>> is the longshoreman thing common? Are they making $300K year on
>>> $30+/hour?
>> I doubt it, as there aren't enough hours in a year for them to reach
>> $300K at $30 per hour, even working round the clock, 7 days a week...
>
> See http://tinyurl.com/2phjlz Several walking bosses were approaching
> $400K. You don't understand wage guarantees. Read the CBA, and it
> will become clear how a longshoreman can "work" eight hours in one
> hour. -- Jay Beattie.
So it is not just lawyers that overcharge for their time? ;)
Many of us do the opposite (including some bicycle mechanics who
undercharge for their labor).
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 21:30:02
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:20:52 -0700, Jay Beattie
<jbeattie@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
>On Aug 13, 12:26 pm, Andrew Price <ajpr...@free.fr> wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 01:16:34 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
>>
>> <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>> >is the longshoreman thing common? Are they making $300K year on
>> >$30+/hour?
>>
>> I doubt it, as there aren't enough hours in a year for them to reach
>> $300K at $30 per hour, even working round the clock, 7 days a week...
>
>See http://tinyurl.com/2phjlz Several walking bosses were approaching
>$400K. You don't understand wage guarantees. Read the CBA, and it
>will become clear how a longshoreman can "work" eight hours in one
>hour. -- Jay Beattie.
I guess I'll have to look through the 20+ pages of charts to see if it
answers the question I asked - is that longshoreman thing common?
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 12 Aug 2007 10:48:53
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article <8rvtb3hec4adsk89p6o0jucv4g5jp1c1hs@4ax.com >,
RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> Unions are a very nice part of the free market.
Yup. They are what created most of the American middle class.
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Date: 12 Aug 2007 12:23:08
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <8rvtb3hec4adsk89p6o0jucv4g5jp1c1hs@4ax.com>,
> RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Unions are a very nice part of the free market.
>
> Yup. They are what created most of the American middle class.
And then nearly destroyed it.
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 21:01:26
From: Ed Pirrero
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 14, 1:02 pm, "DI" <di9...@cox.net > wrote:
> "Ed Pirrero" <gcmschem...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1187121370.462085.100450@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 14, 11:33 am, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> "Ed Pirrero" <gcmschem...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:1187108534.906593.128120@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > Yeah, local regulation works for some stuff, but not all. Your
> >> > sweeping over-generalization of the state of (in)ability of the feds
> >> > only makes you look like a fool. Or, more of a fool.
>
> >> > E.P.
>
> >> State of inability of the feds? Want to buy a FEMA trailer? It comes
> >> with
> >> a free bag of 2-year old ice that's been across the country a few times
> >> in a
> >> truck. Of course you will have to pay a gas guzzler tax on the tow
> >> vehicle, just don't tow it over a bridge on the interstate. Maybe you
> >> could take it to the border and fill it with illegals, if caught you can
> >> claim discrimination & testify against the border guards and will be
> >> given a
> >> free no questions asked pass across the border. Yes Sir, the Feds do
> >> thing
> >> right.
>
> > Like people in general, they goof.
>
> > Unfortunately, folks like yourself expect them to be perfect, for
> > free.
>
> No, I just expect them to do their job in a reasonable and efficient way,
> and be accountable for their screw ups, same as you or I would working for a
> private company.
And mostly, they are. Just like at any big private company.
You don't have a clue how things work in government, do you?
> > Or, alternatively, regulate *the other guy*, but not me.
>
> You've never heard me say "regulate" in any manner on any group, I just say
> don't regulate me.
Except that's not possible. No regulation = anarchy, and anarchy
invites despotism.
And if you are like any of the other small-minded "don't regulate me"
types, you'll bitch loudest when someone does something that's
allowed, but that you don't like.
There are places in this great, wide world that have very few
regulations. Pretty much anything goes.
Too bad they are universally considered shitholes by civilized
people. Hmmm, I wonder if a causal relationship exists...
E.P.
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 17:38:21
From: DI
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
"Ed Pirrero" <gcmschemist@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1187125286.906290.61760@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
> >
>> No, I just expect them to do their job in a reasonable and efficient way,
>> and be accountable for their screw ups, same as you or I would working
>> for a
>> private company.
>
> And mostly, they are. Just like at any big private company.
NONSENSE
>
> You don't have a clue how things work in government, do you?
>
I have a very good clue how things work in government, mainly it doesn't,
but why don't you tell me how it works since you are obviously the expert.
> Except that's not possible. No regulation = anarchy, and anarchy
> invites despotism.
A typical Liberal attitude, "we must regulate, tax or eliminate"
>
> And if you are like any of the other small-minded "don't regulate me"
> types, you'll bitch loudest when someone does something that's
> allowed, but that you don't like.
I don't think it's being "small minded" to want to have control over your
own destiny. who would ever want to put their future in the hands of a
beuracrat, especially when that beuracrat was most likely hired based on
his social status, and even more so likely graduated at the bottom of his
class.
>
> E.P.
>
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 19:56:10
From: Ed Pirrero
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 14, 11:33 am, "DI" <di9...@cox.net > wrote:
> "Ed Pirrero" <gcmschem...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1187108534.906593.128120@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Yeah, local regulation works for some stuff, but not all. Your
> > sweeping over-generalization of the state of (in)ability of the feds
> > only makes you look like a fool. Or, more of a fool.
>
> > E.P.
>
> State of inability of the feds? Want to buy a FEMA trailer? It comes with
> a free bag of 2-year old ice that's been across the country a few times in a
> truck. Of course you will have to pay a gas guzzler tax on the tow
> vehicle, just don't tow it over a bridge on the interstate. Maybe you
> could take it to the border and fill it with illegals, if caught you can
> claim discrimination & testify against the border guards and will be given a
> free no questions asked pass across the border. Yes Sir, the Feds do thing
> right.
Like people in general, they goof.
Unfortunately, folks like yourself expect them to be perfect, for
free.
Or, alternatively, regulate *the other guy*, but not me.
And sometimes, really stupid people can hold both opinions at the same
time.
Hmmm....
E.P.
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 15:02:13
From: DI
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
"Ed Pirrero" <gcmschemist@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1187121370.462085.100450@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 14, 11:33 am, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
>> "Ed Pirrero" <gcmschem...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1187108534.906593.128120@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > Yeah, local regulation works for some stuff, but not all. Your
>> > sweeping over-generalization of the state of (in)ability of the feds
>> > only makes you look like a fool. Or, more of a fool.
>>
>> > E.P.
>>
>> State of inability of the feds? Want to buy a FEMA trailer? It comes
>> with
>> a free bag of 2-year old ice that's been across the country a few times
>> in a
>> truck. Of course you will have to pay a gas guzzler tax on the tow
>> vehicle, just don't tow it over a bridge on the interstate. Maybe you
>> could take it to the border and fill it with illegals, if caught you can
>> claim discrimination & testify against the border guards and will be
>> given a
>> free no questions asked pass across the border. Yes Sir, the Feds do
>> thing
>> right.
>
> Like people in general, they goof.
>
> Unfortunately, folks like yourself expect them to be perfect, for
> free.
No, I just expect them to do their job in a reasonable and efficient way,
and be accountable for their screw ups, same as you or I would working for a
private company.
>
> Or, alternatively, regulate *the other guy*, but not me.
You've never heard me say "regulate" in any manner on any group, I just say
don't regulate me.
>
> And sometimes, really stupid people can hold both opinions at the same
> time.
>
> Hmmm....
>
> E.P.
>
|
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 18:30:27
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 15:02:13 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net > wrote:
>No, I just expect them to do their job in a reasonable and efficient way,
>and be accountable for their screw ups, same as you or I would working for a
>private company.
You don't seem to be aware that there are huge amounts of subsidies to
private business in the US.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 21:38:26
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 15:02:13 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> No, I just expect them to do their job in a reasonable and efficient way,
>> and be accountable for their screw ups, same as you or I would working for a
>> private company.
>
> You don't seem to be aware that there are huge amounts of subsidies to
> private business in the US.
Hey YOU! Ignore that elephant - it doesn't exist!
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 17:46:48
From: DI
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
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"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote in message
news:57b4c3domg8k0p36g34rsckblg3kt3glu2@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 15:02:13 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>No, I just expect them to do their job in a reasonable and efficient way,
>>and be accountable for their screw ups, same as you or I would working for
>>a
>>private company.
>
> You don't seem to be aware that there are huge amounts of subsidies to
> private business in the US.
> --
> JT
I'm aware of it, doesn't mean I approve it. But how does that affect the
way a government bureaucrat performs his job?
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 19:49:47
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
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On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 17:46:48 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net > wrote:
>
>"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote in message
>news:57b4c3domg8k0p36g34rsckblg3kt3glu2@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 15:02:13 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>No, I just expect them to do their job in a reasonable and efficient way,
>>>and be accountable for their screw ups, same as you or I would working for
>>>a
>>>private company.
>>
>> You don't seem to be aware that there are huge amounts of subsidies to
>> private business in the US.
>> --
>> JT
>
>I'm aware of it, doesn't mean I approve it. But how does that affect the
>way a government bureaucrat performs his job?
My point is the private sector in the US is not immune to poor
performance and waste of public resources.
--
JT
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 16:22:14
From: Ed Pirrero
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
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On Aug 14, 4:39 am, "DI" <di9...@cox.net > wrote:
> "Ed Pirrero" <gcmschem...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1187061991.051173.99180@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Aug 13, 7:03 pm, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> "John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote in
> >> messagenews:9lv1c3d2lhp2c70tefg7qjsn5cutsls03k@4ax.com...
>
> >> > On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 19:48:09 -0500, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> >> >>"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote in message
> >> >>news:rdu1c3d1eoca1r92mgeqeriqr75scpd5tf@4ax.com...
> >> >>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 07:54:31 -0500, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> >>.
> >> >>> How stupid are you? Do you understand the concept of inflation and
> >> >>> actual purchasing power?
>
> >> >>Not stupid enough to be a Dem.
>
> >> > That really says it all. Pride in factual ignorance as long as you
> >> > don't have to change your political views. It's the very definition
> >> > of reactionary.
> >> > --
> >> > JT
>
> >> Did you ever think I just may think it's not the Federal Government's job
> >> to
> >> tell a business how much they should or should not pay a person for doing
> >> a
> >> job?
>
> > Exactly. Nor how old you have to be before you can not be chained to
> > the machinery any longer, nor how long a work week should be, nor how
> > safe or unsafe a workplace may be - nor should the feds regulate in
> > any way how a business may dispose of waste, label a product, or any
> > other such thing that might interfere with maximizing return to
> > shareholders.
>
> > After all, if someone gets hurt, or is an indentured servant to a
> > company, they can always move to Canada, right?
>
> > Why is where you draw the line at regulation any more valid than where
> > Tom or Tim draws the line?
>
> > E.P.
>
> Because the Federal Bureaucrats are the most inefficient group of bungling
> morons in existence, regulation should be done at a local level where
> citizens would have more control over it.
Especially in the South, where those pesky black folks are overrunning
the place, and now those damn hispanics.
Yeah, local regulation works for some stuff, but not all. Your
sweeping over-generalization of the state of (in)ability of the feds
only makes you look like a fool. Or, more of a fool.
E.P.
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 13:33:41
From: DI
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
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"Ed Pirrero" <gcmschemist@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1187108534.906593.128120@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> Yeah, local regulation works for some stuff, but not all. Your
> sweeping over-generalization of the state of (in)ability of the feds
> only makes you look like a fool. Or, more of a fool.
>
> E.P.
>
State of inability of the feds? Want to buy a FEMA trailer? It comes with
a free bag of 2-year old ice that's been across the country a few times in a
truck. Of course you will have to pay a gas guzzler tax on the tow
vehicle, just don't tow it over a bridge on the interstate. Maybe you
could take it to the border and fill it with illegals, if caught you can
claim discrimination & testify against the border guards and will be given a
free no questions asked pass across the border. Yes Sir, the Feds do thing
right.
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 21:36:10
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
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DI (who?) anonymously snipes:
> "Ed Pirrero" <gcmschemist@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1187108534.906593.128120@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>> Yeah, local regulation works for some stuff, but not all. Your
>> sweeping over-generalization of the state of (in)ability of the feds
>> only makes you look like a fool. Or, more of a fool.
>>
>> E.P.
>>
>
> State of inability of the feds? Want to buy a FEMA trailer? It comes with
> a free bag of 2-year old ice that's been across the country a few times in a
> truck. Of course you will have to pay a gas guzzler tax on the tow
> vehicle, just don't tow it over a bridge on the interstate. Maybe you
> could take it to the border and fill it with illegals, if caught you can
> claim discrimination & testify against the border guards and will be given a
> free no questions asked pass across the border. Yes Sir, the Feds do thing
> right.
Note that these are REPUBLICAN "Feds" not doing things right.
The Federal Government does NOT function properly under the Cheney/Bush
administration due to ideology, not incompetence. These people do not
want an effective government, as their goal is to establish a neo-feudal
economic and political system.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 20:31:59
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
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> "Ed Pirrero" <gcmschemist@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1187108534.906593.128120@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>> Yeah, local regulation works for some stuff, but not all. Your
>> sweeping over-generalization of the state of (in)ability of the feds
>> only makes you look like a fool. Or, more of a fool.
DI wrote:
> State of inability of the feds? Want to buy a FEMA trailer? It comes with
> a free bag of 2-year old ice that's been across the country a few times in a
> truck. Of course you will have to pay a gas guzzler tax on the tow
> vehicle, just don't tow it over a bridge on the interstate. Maybe you
> could take it to the border and fill it with illegals, if caught you can
> claim discrimination & testify against the border guards and will be given a
> free no questions asked pass across the border. Yes Sir, the Feds do thing
> right.
Or most large organizations. Pope John 23d, when asked how many people
work in the Vatican, "About half".
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 20:59:06
From: DI
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
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"A Muzi" <am@yellowjersey.org > wrote in message
news:13c4lrci0thvd12@corp.supernews.com...
>> "Ed Pirrero" <gcmschemist@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1187108534.906593.128120@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>>> Yeah, local regulation works for some stuff, but not all. Your
>>> sweeping over-generalization of the state of (in)ability of the feds
>>> only makes you look like a fool. Or, more of a fool.
>
> DI wrote:
>> State of inability of the feds? Want to buy a FEMA trailer? It comes
>> with a free bag of 2-year old ice that's been across the country a few
>> times in a truck. Of course you will have to pay a gas guzzler tax on
>> the tow vehicle, just don't tow it over a bridge on the interstate.
>> Maybe you could take it to the border and fill it with illegals, if
>> caught you can claim discrimination & testify against the border guards
>> and will be given a free no questions asked pass across the border. Yes
>> Sir, the Feds do thing right.
>
> Or most large organizations. Pope John 23d, when asked how many people
> work in the Vatican, "About half".
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> www.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Half would be great for government employees.
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 22:10:50
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
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DI WHO? wrote:
> "A Muzi" <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
> news:13c4lrci0thvd12@corp.supernews.com...
>>> "Ed Pirrero" <gcmschemist@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1187108534.906593.128120@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>>>> Yeah, local regulation works for some stuff, but not all. Your
>>>> sweeping over-generalization of the state of (in)ability of the feds
>>>> only makes you look like a fool. Or, more of a fool.
>> DI wrote:
>>> State of inability of the feds? Want to buy a FEMA trailer? It comes
>>> with a free bag of 2-year old ice that's been across the country a few
>>> times in a truck. Of course you will have to pay a gas guzzler tax on
>>> the tow vehicle, just don't tow it over a bridge on the interstate.
>>> Maybe you could take it to the border and fill it with illegals, if
>>> caught you can claim discrimination & testify against the border guards
>>> and will be given a free no questions asked pass across the border. Yes
>>> Sir, the Feds do thing right.
>> Or most large organizations. Pope John 23d, when asked how many people
>> work in the Vatican, "About half".
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> www.yellowjersey.org
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Half would be great for government employees.
That would be due to hiring based on nepotism and favoritism instead of
merit.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 18:29:24
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
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On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 13:33:41 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net > wrote:
>just don't tow it over a bridge on the interstate.
The problems with our nations infrastructure is due to nutjobs like
you that make appropriate government spending difficult.
--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 17:44:25
From: DI
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote in message
news:35b4c39vice5eb6iqv324mpj68gpt34ccv@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 13:33:41 -0500, "DI" <di9999@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>just don't tow it over a bridge on the interstate.
>
> The problems with our nations infrastructure is due to nutjobs like
> you that make appropriate government spending difficult.
> --
> JT
No it's politicians that you support that divert money intended on
infrastructure improvements to social programs and pork projects.
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 03:26:31
From: Ed Pirrero
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 13, 7:03 pm, "DI" <di9...@cox.net > wrote:
> "John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote in messagenews:9lv1c3d2lhp2c70tefg7qjsn5cutsls03k@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 19:48:09 -0500, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> >>"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote in message
> >>news:rdu1c3d1eoca1r92mgeqeriqr75scpd5tf@4ax.com...
> >>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 07:54:31 -0500, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
> >>.
> >>> How stupid are you? Do you understand the concept of inflation and
> >>> actual purchasing power?
>
> >>Not stupid enough to be a Dem.
>
> > That really says it all. Pride in factual ignorance as long as you
> > don't have to change your political views. It's the very definition
> > of reactionary.
> > --
> > JT
>
> Did you ever think I just may think it's not the Federal Government's job to
> tell a business how much they should or should not pay a person for doing a
> job?
Exactly. Nor how old you have to be before you can not be chained to
the machinery any longer, nor how long a work week should be, nor how
safe or unsafe a workplace may be - nor should the feds regulate in
any way how a business may dispose of waste, label a product, or any
other such thing that might interfere with maximizing return to
shareholders.
After all, if someone gets hurt, or is an indentured servant to a
company, they can always move to Canada, right?
Why is where you draw the line at regulation any more valid than where
Tom or Tim draws the line?
E.P.
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 06:39:00
From: DI
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
"Ed Pirrero" <gcmschemist@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1187061991.051173.99180@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 13, 7:03 pm, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
>> "John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:9lv1c3d2lhp2c70tefg7qjsn5cutsls03k@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 19:48:09 -0500, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>> >>"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote in message
>> >>news:rdu1c3d1eoca1r92mgeqeriqr75scpd5tf@4ax.com...
>> >>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 07:54:31 -0500, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
>> >>.
>> >>> How stupid are you? Do you understand the concept of inflation and
>> >>> actual purchasing power?
>>
>> >>Not stupid enough to be a Dem.
>>
>> > That really says it all. Pride in factual ignorance as long as you
>> > don't have to change your political views. It's the very definition
>> > of reactionary.
>> > --
>> > JT
>>
>> Did you ever think I just may think it's not the Federal Government's job
>> to
>> tell a business how much they should or should not pay a person for doing
>> a
>> job?
>
> Exactly. Nor how old you have to be before you can not be chained to
> the machinery any longer, nor how long a work week should be, nor how
> safe or unsafe a workplace may be - nor should the feds regulate in
> any way how a business may dispose of waste, label a product, or any
> other such thing that might interfere with maximizing return to
> shareholders.
>
> After all, if someone gets hurt, or is an indentured servant to a
> company, they can always move to Canada, right?
>
> Why is where you draw the line at regulation any more valid than where
> Tom or Tim draws the line?
>
> E.P.
>
Because the Federal Bureaucrats are the most inefficient group of bungling
morons in existence, regulation should be done at a local level where
citizens would have more control over it.
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 20:22:52
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 13, 6:30 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:20:52 -0700, Jay Beattie
>
> <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> >On Aug 13, 12:26 pm, Andrew Price <ajpr...@free.fr> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 01:16:34 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
>
> >> <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
> >> >is the longshoreman thing common? Are they making $300K year on
> >> >$30+/hour?
>
> >> I doubt it, as there aren't enough hours in a year for them to reach
> >> $300K at $30 per hour, even working round the clock, 7 days a week...
>
> >Seehttp://tinyurl.com/2phjlz Several walking bosses were approaching
> >$400K. You don't understand wage guarantees. Read the CBA, and it
> >will become clear how a longshoreman can "work" eight hours in one
> >hour. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> I guess I'll have to look through the 20+ pages of charts to see if it
> answers the question I asked - is that longshoreman thing common?
The info is on document page 63. Longshore employment is dwindling in
most ports, and it is hard in many ports to rack up the hours
necessary to move up from being a "casual" longshoreman to a
registered longshoreman. Once you are a registered A man, then the
work is more regular and lucrative. Note the average wages in So Cal
-- well over $100K for an A man. Clerks make even more, and the work
is lighter.-- Jay Beattie.
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 07:24:49
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 20:22:52 -0700, Jay Beattie
<jbeattie@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
>On Aug 13, 6:30 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
>wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:20:52 -0700, Jay Beattie
>>
>> <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>> >On Aug 13, 12:26 pm, Andrew Price <ajpr...@free.fr> wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 01:16:34 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
>>
>> >> <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>> >> >is the longshoreman thing common? Are they making $300K year on
>> >> >$30+/hour?
>>
>> >> I doubt it, as there aren't enough hours in a year for them to reach
>> >> $300K at $30 per hour, even working round the clock, 7 days a week...
>>
>> >Seehttp://tinyurl.com/2phjlz Several walking bosses were approaching
>> >$400K. You don't understand wage guarantees. Read the CBA, and it
>> >will become clear how a longshoreman can "work" eight hours in one
>> >hour. -- Jay Beattie.
>>
>> I guess I'll have to look through the 20+ pages of charts to see if it
>> answers the question I asked - is that longshoreman thing common?
>
>The info is on document page 63
Ten people making $300K or more/year? That's it? And it took asking
twice to get that out of you.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 01:10:28
From: Ed Pirrero
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 13, 6:01 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 19:48:09 -0500, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> >"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote in message
> >news:rdu1c3d1eoca1r92mgeqeriqr75scpd5tf@4ax.com...
> >> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 07:54:31 -0500, "DI" <di9...@cox.net> wrote:
> >.
> >> How stupid are you? Do you understand the concept of inflation and
> >> actual purchasing power?
>
> >Not stupid enough to be a Dem.
>
> That really says it all. Pride in factual ignorance as long as you
> don't have to change your political views. It's the very definition
> of reactionary.
Heh. You misspelt "stupidity"
E.P.
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 20:45:32
From: DI
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
"Ed Pirrero" <gcmschemist@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1187053828.355000.244720@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>> >.
>> >> How stupid are you? Do you understand the concept of inflation and
>> >> actual purchasing power?
>>
>> >Not stupid enough to be a Dem.
>>
>> That really says it all. Pride in factual ignorance as long as you
>> don't have to change your political views. It's the very definition
>> of reactionary.
>
> Heh. You misspelt "stupidity"
>
> E.P.
>
Where?
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 21:32:44
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
DI WHO? wrote:
> "Ed Pirrero" <gcmschemist@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1187053828.355000.244720@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> .
>>>>> How stupid are you? Do you understand the concept of inflation and
>>>>> actual purchasing power?
>>>> Not stupid enough to be a Dem.
>>> That really says it all. Pride in factual ignorance as long as you
>>> don't have to change your political views. It's the very definition
>>> of reactionary.
>> Heh. You misspelt "stupidity"
>>
>> E.P.
>>
>
> Where?
WHOOOOOOOOOSH! ;)
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 12 Aug 2007 15:26:32
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Bill Sornson wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
>> In article <8rvtb3hec4adsk89p6o0jucv4g5jp1c1hs@4ax.com>,
>> RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Unions are a very nice part of the free market.
>> Yup. They are what created most of the American middle class.
>
> And then nearly destroyed it.
Only in the world of right-wing talk radio.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Twisting may help if yawl can chew gum and walk.” - gene daniels
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 12 Aug 2007 16:35:31
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 15:26:32 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote:
>Bill Sornson wrote:
>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>> In article <8rvtb3hec4adsk89p6o0jucv4g5jp1c1hs@4ax.com>,
>>> RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Unions are a very nice part of the free market.
>>> Yup. They are what created most of the American middle class.
>>
>> And then nearly destroyed it.
>
>Only in the world of right-wing talk radio.
On the government banning baby formula thing I can just hear Rush
Limbaughs voice giving half truth, filled with outrage, over
government in New York City banning baby formula but not explaing the
whole story that it's banning the government itself from distributing
the formula. And Sorni, listening with even more outrage, makes a
note of yet another way liberals in government are curtailing his
freedom. Hahaha. What a dope.
Sorni - where do you get your news? Where do you get your news?
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 11 Aug 2007 23:28:38
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
>> On Aug 11, 6:01 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>> All things that are increasingly curtailed by the New Right in the
>>>>> United States.
>>>> Along with smoking, baby formula, transfat, lightbulbs...
>>>> Oh, wait.
>>>> LOL
>>> Oh yeah, almost forgot anonymous union votes. Dems can't have
>>> THAT! (But they did have the nerve to name their bill some
>>> disingenuous, misleading title -- "Employee Free Choice Act" --
>>> that completely belies its true intent.)
>>>
>>> http://republicanleader.house.gov/blog/?p=40 (figure you'd love the
>>> source)
>>
>> You make it sound as if this bill takes existing
>> anonymous elections and _replaces_ them with a
>> non-anonymous process. That is a misrepresentation,
>> because the non-anonymous process of signing union
>> cards is already part of existing labor law. The
>> bill proposes a variety of things, but the particular
>> proposition you're talking about takes the current
>> two step process:
>>
>> Current:
>> 1. Union organizers have to collect signed cards or
>> petitions from some large percentage of employees to
>> demand union recognition or a vote.
>> 2. If the employer desires, they may demand a
>> secret-ballot election.
>>
>> EFCA:
>> 1. If the union gets over 50% of the employees to
>> sign cards, they can demand recognition without having
>> to go through the election.
>>
>> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_Free_Choice_Act
>> (a relatively nonpartisan page).
>>
>> In practice, though there are all sorts of dirty tricks
>> in the history of labor representation battles, in the
>> past few decades the vast majority of pressure has been
>> from employers on employees at or before the election
>> stage (including closing plants that vote for unions).
>> So pretending that this is some vast conspiracy to coerce
>> lots of people into unions is just noise....
>
> Hey, if people do not like working in an unionized work place, they
> are free to quit and find another job. The FREE MARKET will provide
> non-union jobs if there is a demand for them, right?
The point is that a workplace workforce should be able to vote yay or nay
without peer- much less goon-pressure.
(Hey look, there's more stuff below.)
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 07:43:29
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Bill "Sorni" Sornson wrote:
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
>>> On Aug 11, 6:01 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>> All things that are increasingly curtailed by the New Right in the
>>>>>> United States.
>>>>> Along with smoking, baby formula, transfat, lightbulbs...
>>>>> Oh, wait.
>>>>> LOL
>>>> Oh yeah, almost forgot anonymous union votes. Dems can't have
>>>> THAT! (But they did have the nerve to name their bill some
>>>> disingenuous, misleading title -- "Employee Free Choice Act" --
>>>> that completely belies its true intent.)
>>>>
>>>> http://republicanleader.house.gov/blog/?p=40 (figure you'd love the
>>>> source)
>>> You make it sound as if this bill takes existing
>>> anonymous elections and _replaces_ them with a
>>> non-anonymous process. That is a misrepresentation,
>>> because the non-anonymous process of signing union
>>> cards is already part of existing labor law. The
>>> bill proposes a variety of things, but the particular
>>> proposition you're talking about takes the current
>>> two step process:
>>>
>>> Current:
>>> 1. Union organizers have to collect signed cards or
>>> petitions from some large percentage of employees to
>>> demand union recognition or a vote.
>>> 2. If the employer desires, they may demand a
>>> secret-ballot election.
>>>
>>> EFCA:
>>> 1. If the union gets over 50% of the employees to
>>> sign cards, they can demand recognition without having
>>> to go through the election.
>>>
>>> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_Free_Choice_Act
>>> (a relatively nonpartisan page).
>>>
>>> In practice, though there are all sorts of dirty tricks
>>> in the history of labor representation battles, in the
>>> past few decades the vast majority of pressure has been
>>> from employers on employees at or before the election
>>> stage (including closing plants that vote for unions).
>>> So pretending that this is some vast conspiracy to coerce
>>> lots of people into unions is just noise....
>> Hey, if people do not like working in an unionized work place, they
>> are free to quit and find another job. The FREE MARKET will provide
>> non-union jobs if there is a demand for them, right?
>
> The point is that a workplace workforce should be able to vote yay or nay
> without peer- much less goon-pressure.
Oh, but it is fine for employers to employ all sorts of intimidating
tactics for months (including both actual and threatened termination of
employment) on end to influence the results of the vote for/against
collective bargaining?
> (Hey look, there's more stuff below.)
Hey look, OE is confused where it should not be.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Humans are not Peterbilt trucks..." - Jobst Brandt
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 12:22:00
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> Bill "Sorni" Sornson wrote:
>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>> bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
>>>> On Aug 11, 6:01 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>>>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>> All things that are increasingly curtailed by the New Right in
>>>>>>> the United States.
>>>>>> Along with smoking, baby formula, transfat, lightbulbs...
>>>>>> Oh, wait.
>>>>>> LOL
>>>>> Oh yeah, almost forgot anonymous union votes. Dems can't have
>>>>> THAT! (But they did have the nerve to name their bill some
>>>>> disingenuous, misleading title -- "Employee Free Choice Act" --
>>>>> that completely belies its true intent.)
>>>>>
>>>>> http://republicanleader.house.gov/blog/?p=40 (figure you'd love
>>>>> the source)
>>>> You make it sound as if this bill takes existing
>>>> anonymous elections and _replaces_ them with a
>>>> non-anonymous process. That is a misrepresentation,
>>>> because the non-anonymous process of signing union
>>>> cards is already part of existing labor law. The
>>>> bill proposes a variety of things, but the particular
>>>> proposition you're talking about takes the current
>>>> two step process:
>>>>
>>>> Current:
>>>> 1. Union organizers have to collect signed cards or
>>>> petitions from some large percentage of employees to
>>>> demand union recognition or a vote.
>>>> 2. If the employer desires, they may demand a
>>>> secret-ballot election.
>>>>
>>>> EFCA:
>>>> 1. If the union gets over 50% of the employees to
>>>> sign cards, they can demand recognition without having
>>>> to go through the election.
>>>>
>>>> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_Free_Choice_Act
>>>> (a relatively nonpartisan page).
>>>>
>>>> In practice, though there are all sorts of dirty tricks
>>>> in the history of labor representation battles, in the
>>>> past few decades the vast majority of pressure has been
>>>> from employers on employees at or before the election
>>>> stage (including closing plants that vote for unions).
>>>> So pretending that this is some vast conspiracy to coerce
>>>> lots of people into unions is just noise....
>>> Hey, if people do not like working in an unionized work place, they
>>> are free to quit and find another job. The FREE MARKET will provide
>>> non-union jobs if there is a demand for them, right?
>>
>> The point is that a workplace workforce should be able to vote yay
>> or nay without peer- much less goon-pressure.
>
> Oh, but it is fine for employers to employ all sorts of intimidating
> tactics for months (including both actual and threatened termination
> of employment) on end to influence the results of the vote for/against
> collective bargaining?
WHOOSH! That's yet another reason to have honest, fair, ANONYMOUS voting.
It's really not that complicated.
>
>> (Hey look, there's more stuff below.)
>
> Hey look, OE is confused where it should not be.
Hey, at least it deletes your UBIQUITOUS SPAM! LOL
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> "Humans are not Peterbilt trucks..." - Jobst Brandt
(You forgot the "@stanfo....")
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 15:24:55
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Bill "Sorni" Sornson wrote:
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> Bill "Sorni" Sornson wrote:
>>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>>> bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
>>>>> On Aug 11, 6:01 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>>>>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>>> All things that are increasingly curtailed by the New Right in
>>>>>>>> the United States.
>>>>>>> Along with smoking, baby formula, transfat, lightbulbs...
>>>>>>> Oh, wait.
>>>>>>> LOL
>>>>>> Oh yeah, almost forgot anonymous union votes. Dems can't have
>>>>>> THAT! (But they did have the nerve to name their bill some
>>>>>> disingenuous, misleading title -- "Employee Free Choice Act" --
>>>>>> that completely belies its true intent.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://republicanleader.house.gov/blog/?p=40 (figure you'd love
>>>>>> the source)
>>>>> You make it sound as if this bill takes existing
>>>>> anonymous elections and _replaces_ them with a
>>>>> non-anonymous process. That is a misrepresentation,
>>>>> because the non-anonymous process of signing union
>>>>> cards is already part of existing labor law. The
>>>>> bill proposes a variety of things, but the particular
>>>>> proposition you're talking about takes the current
>>>>> two step process:
>>>>>
>>>>> Current:
>>>>> 1. Union organizers have to collect signed cards or
>>>>> petitions from some large percentage of employees to
>>>>> demand union recognition or a vote.
>>>>> 2. If the employer desires, they may demand a
>>>>> secret-ballot election.
>>>>>
>>>>> EFCA:
>>>>> 1. If the union gets over 50% of the employees to
>>>>> sign cards, they can demand recognition without having
>>>>> to go through the election.
>>>>>
>>>>> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_Free_Choice_Act
>>>>> (a relatively nonpartisan page).
>>>>>
>>>>> In practice, though there are all sorts of dirty tricks
>>>>> in the history of labor representation battles, in the
>>>>> past few decades the vast majority of pressure has been
>>>>> from employers on employees at or before the election
>>>>> stage (including closing plants that vote for unions).
>>>>> So pretending that this is some vast conspiracy to coerce
>>>>> lots of people into unions is just noise....
>>>> Hey, if people do not like working in an unionized work place, they
>>>> are free to quit and find another job. The FREE MARKET will provide
>>>> non-union jobs if there is a demand for them, right?
>>> The point is that a workplace workforce should be able to vote yay
>>> or nay without peer- much less goon-pressure.
>> Oh, but it is fine for employers to employ all sorts of intimidating
>> tactics for months (including both actual and threatened termination
>> of employment) on end to influence the results of the vote for/against
>> collective bargaining?
>
> WHOOSH! That's yet another reason to have honest, fair, ANONYMOUS voting.
> It's really not that complicated....
Yes, its not that complicated. Employers get to employ all sorts of
illegal tactics, including firing workers, and at the worst they get
fined a few thousand dollars by the Republican dominated NLRB.
Obviously, Sorni doesn't have a club as to what really goes on.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Humans are not Peterbilt trucks..." - Jobst Brandt
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 15:28:35
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> Bill "Sorni" Sornson wrote:
>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>> Bill "Sorni" Sornson wrote:
>>>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>>>> bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
>>>>>> On Aug 11, 6:01 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>>>>>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>>>> All things that are increasingly curtailed by the New Right in
>>>>>>>>> the United States.
>>>>>>>> Along with smoking, baby formula, transfat, lightbulbs...
>>>>>>>> Oh, wait.
>>>>>>>> LOL
>>>>>>> Oh yeah, almost forgot anonymous union votes. Dems can't have
>>>>>>> THAT! (But they did have the nerve to name their bill some
>>>>>>> disingenuous, misleading title -- "Employee Free Choice Act" --
>>>>>>> that completely belies its true intent.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://republicanleader.house.gov/blog/?p=40 (figure you'd love
>>>>>>> the source)
>>>>>> You make it sound as if this bill takes existing
>>>>>> anonymous elections and _replaces_ them with a
>>>>>> non-anonymous process. That is a misrepresentation,
>>>>>> because the non-anonymous process of signing union
>>>>>> cards is already part of existing labor law. The
>>>>>> bill proposes a variety of things, but the particular
>>>>>> proposition you're talking about takes the current
>>>>>> two step process:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Current:
>>>>>> 1. Union organizers have to collect signed cards or
>>>>>> petitions from some large percentage of employees to
>>>>>> demand union recognition or a vote.
>>>>>> 2. If the employer desires, they may demand a
>>>>>> secret-ballot election.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> EFCA:
>>>>>> 1. If the union gets over 50% of the employees to
>>>>>> sign cards, they can demand recognition without having
>>>>>> to go through the election.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_Free_Choice_Act
>>>>>> (a relatively nonpartisan page).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In practice, though there are all sorts of dirty tricks
>>>>>> in the history of labor representation battles, in the
>>>>>> past few decades the vast majority of pressure has been
>>>>>> from employers on employees at or before the election
>>>>>> stage (including closing plants that vote for unions).
>>>>>> So pretending that this is some vast conspiracy to coerce
>>>>>> lots of people into unions is just noise....
>>>>> Hey, if people do not like working in an unionized work place,
>>>>> they are free to quit and find another job. The FREE MARKET will
>>>>> provide non-union jobs if there is a demand for them, right?
>>>> The point is that a workplace workforce should be able to vote yay
>>>> or nay without peer- much less goon-pressure.
>>> Oh, but it is fine for employers to employ all sorts of intimidating
>>> tactics for months (including both actual and threatened termination
>>> of employment) on end to influence the results of the vote
>>> for/against collective bargaining?
>>
>> WHOOSH! That's yet another reason to have honest, fair, ANONYMOUS
>> voting. It's really not that complicated....
>
> Yes, its not that complicated. Employers get to employ all sorts of
> illegal tactics, including firing workers, and at the worst they get
> fined a few thousand dollars by the Republican dominated NLRB.
> Obviously, Sorni doesn't have a club as to what really goes on.
Whoosh! All the more reason to have FAIR, HONEST, *ANONYMOUS* voting!
HTH
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> "Humans are not Peterbilt trucks..." - Jobst Brandt
(Too lazy to erase it...yet again.)
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 19:11:33
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Bill "Sorni" Sornson wrote:
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> Bill "Sorni" Sornson wrote:
>>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>>> Bill "Sorni" Sornson wrote:
>>>>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>>>>> bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
>>>>>>> On Aug 11, 6:01 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> All things that are increasingly curtailed by the New Right in
>>>>>>>>>> the United States.
>>>>>>>>> Along with smoking, baby formula, transfat, lightbulbs...
>>>>>>>>> Oh, wait.
>>>>>>>>> LOL
>>>>>>>> Oh yeah, almost forgot anonymous union votes. Dems can't have
>>>>>>>> THAT! (But they did have the nerve to name their bill some
>>>>>>>> disingenuous, misleading title -- "Employee Free Choice Act" --
>>>>>>>> that completely belies its true intent.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://republicanleader.house.gov/blog/?p=40 (figure you'd love
>>>>>>>> the source)
>>>>>>> You make it sound as if this bill takes existing
>>>>>>> anonymous elections and _replaces_ them with a
>>>>>>> non-anonymous process. That is a misrepresentation,
>>>>>>> because the non-anonymous process of signing union
>>>>>>> cards is already part of existing labor law. The
>>>>>>> bill proposes a variety of things, but the particular
>>>>>>> proposition you're talking about takes the current
>>>>>>> two step process:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Current:
>>>>>>> 1. Union organizers have to collect signed cards or
>>>>>>> petitions from some large percentage of employees to
>>>>>>> demand union recognition or a vote.
>>>>>>> 2. If the employer desires, they may demand a
>>>>>>> secret-ballot election.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> EFCA:
>>>>>>> 1. If the union gets over 50% of the employees to
>>>>>>> sign cards, they can demand recognition without having
>>>>>>> to go through the election.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_Free_Choice_Act
>>>>>>> (a relatively nonpartisan page).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In practice, though there are all sorts of dirty tricks
>>>>>>> in the history of labor representation battles, in the
>>>>>>> past few decades the vast majority of pressure has been
>>>>>>> from employers on employees at or before the election
>>>>>>> stage (including closing plants that vote for unions).
>>>>>>> So pretending that this is some vast conspiracy to coerce
>>>>>>> lots of people into unions is just noise....
>>>>>> Hey, if people do not like working in an unionized work place,
>>>>>> they are free to quit and find another job. The FREE MARKET will
>>>>>> provide non-union jobs if there is a demand for them, right?
>>>>> The point is that a workplace workforce should be able to vote yay
>>>>> or nay without peer- much less goon-pressure.
>>>> Oh, but it is fine for employers to employ all sorts of intimidating
>>>> tactics for months (including both actual and threatened termination
>>>> of employment) on end to influence the results of the vote
>>>> for/against collective bargaining?
>>> WHOOSH! That's yet another reason to have honest, fair, ANONYMOUS
>>> voting. It's really not that complicated....
>> Yes, its not that complicated. Employers get to employ all sorts of
>> illegal tactics, including firing workers, and at the worst they get
>> fined a few thousand dollars by the Republican dominated NLRB.
>> Obviously, Sorni doesn't have a club as to what really goes on.
>
> Whoosh! All the more reason to have FAIR, HONEST, *ANONYMOUS* voting!
Get a clue, Sorni. You obviously have no idea of what goes on in the
real world of "union busting."
> HTH
>> --
>> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
>> "Humans are not Peterbilt trucks..." - Jobst Brandt
>
> (Too lazy to erase it...yet again.)
Fix your newsreader - no one else seems to have this complaint.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Humans are not Peterbilt trucks..." - Jobst Brandt
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 02:09:48
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article
<46bf959e$0$16400$88260bb3@free.teranews.com >,
"Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote:
> Bill "Sorni" Sornson wrote:
> > Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
[...]
> > HTH
> >> --
> >> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> >> "Humans are not Peterbilt trucks..." - Jobst Brandt
> >
> > (Too lazy to erase it...yet again.)
>
> Fix your newsreader - no one else seems to have this complaint.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> "Humans are not Peterbilt trucks..." - Jobst Brandt
The acknowledged separator for signatures is
newline dash dash space newline.
Your messages use this string twice.
Other people's news readers recognize the final such string,
not the initial string. This is the source of the confusion.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 22:32:12
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Michael Press of Possum Lodge wrote:
> In article
> <46bf959e$0$16400$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
> "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote:
>
>> Bill "Sorni" Sornson wrote:
>>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> HTH
>>>> --
>>>> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
>>>> "Humans are not Peterbilt trucks..." - Jobst Brandt
>>> (Too lazy to erase it...yet again.)
>> Fix your newsreader - no one else seems to have this complaint.
>>
>> --
>> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
>> "Humans are not Peterbilt trucks..." - Jobst Brandt
>
> The acknowledged separator for signatures is
> newline dash dash space newline.
>
> Your messages use this string twice.
> Other people's news readers recognize the final such string,
> not the initial string. This is the source of the confusion.
My newsreader (Thunderbird) handles multiple signature separators just
fine, ignoring everything after the first one, just like it should.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct wave
Point” - gene daniels
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 14:42:50
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
In article
<46bfc4a5$0$10114$88260bb3@free.teranews.com >,
"Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote:
> Michael Press of Possum Lodge wrote:
> > In article
> > <46bf959e$0$16400$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
> > "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> > <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Bill "Sorni" Sornson wrote:
> >>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >>> HTH
> >>>> --
> >>>> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> >>>> "Humans are not Peterbilt trucks..." - Jobst Brandt
> >>> (Too lazy to erase it...yet again.)
> >> Fix your newsreader - no one else seems to have this complaint.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> >> "Humans are not Peterbilt trucks..." - Jobst Brandt
> >
> > The acknowledged separator for signatures is
> > newline dash dash space newline.
> >
> > Your messages use this string twice.
> > Other people's news readers recognize the final such string,
> > not the initial string. This is the source of the confusion.
>
> My newsreader (Thunderbird) handles multiple signature separators just
> fine, ignoring everything after the first one, just like it should.
When you say `should' you mean that it is written up in
a document describing nntp protocols. Please provide a
citation for this, preferably a URL for the relevant
RFC?
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 21:18:57
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Michael Press of Possum Lodge wrote:
> In article
> <46bfc4a5$0$10114$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
> "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote:
>
>> Michael Press of Possum Lodge wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <46bf959e$0$16400$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
>>> "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
>>> <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bill "Sorni" Sornson wrote:
>>>>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>>> HTH
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
>>>>>> "Humans are not Peterbilt trucks..." - Jobst Brandt
>>>>> (Too lazy to erase it...yet again.)
>>>> Fix your newsreader - no one else seems to have this complaint.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
>>>> "Humans are not Peterbilt trucks..." - Jobst Brandt
>>> The acknowledged separator for signatures is
>>> newline dash dash space newline.
>>>
>>> Your messages use this string twice.
>>> Other people's news readers recognize the final such string,
>>> not the initial string. This is the source of the confusion.
>> My newsreader (Thunderbird) handles multiple signature separators just
>> fine, ignoring everything after the first one, just like it should.
>
> When you say `should' you mean that it is written up in
> a document describing nntp protocols. Please provide a
> citation for this, preferably a URL for the relevant
> RFC?
When I wrote "should" I was working from principles of logic.
I believe Sorni is just looking for something to complain about.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 20:04:13
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <46bf959e$0$16400$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
> "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote:
>
>> Bill "Sorni" Sornson wrote:
>>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> HTH
>>>> --
>>>> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
>>>> "Humans are not Peterbilt trucks..." - Jobst Brandt
>>>
>>> (Too lazy to erase it...yet again.)
>>
>> Fix your newsreader - no one else seems to have this complaint.
>>
>> --
>> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
>> "Humans are not Peterbilt trucks..." - Jobst Brandt
>
> The acknowledged separator for signatures is
> newline dash dash space newline.
>
> Your messages use this string twice.
> Other people's news readers recognize the final such string,
> not the initial string. This is the source of the confusion.
Indeed. All I did at first was question why his sig remained in replies, as
they do appear "faded". Didn't occur to me it was because his cheap---- er,
FREE Usenet account added a spam line to every post (and he makes MANY!).
So naturally Tommy tried to turn it around and make it sound like my
newsreader is the ONLY ONE IN THE WORLD that has this glitch.
It's amusing (read: pathetic), really, but he'll doubtless have to get in
his /de rigueur/ last word(s) on the subject. So be it.
BS (jus' a little)
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 22:36:17
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
Bill "Sorni" Sornson wrote:
> Michael Press wrote:
>> In article
>> <46bf959e$0$16400$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
>> "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
>> <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Bill "Sorni" Sornson wrote:
>>>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>>>> HTH
>>>>> --
>>>>> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
>>>>> "Humans are not Peterbilt trucks..." - Jobst Brandt
>>>> (Too lazy to erase it...yet again.)
>>> Fix your newsreader - no one else seems to have this complaint.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
>>> "Humans are not Peterbilt trucks..." - Jobst Brandt
>> The acknowledged separator for signatures is
>> newline dash dash space newline.
>>
>> Your messages use this string twice.
>> Other people's news readers recognize the final such string,
>> not the initial string. This is the source of the confusion.
>
> Indeed. All I did at first was question why his sig remained in replies, as
> they do appear "faded". Didn't occur to me it was because his cheap---- er,
> FREE Usenet account added a spam line to every post (and he makes MANY!).
If wages were what they were several decades ago for comparable work, I
would upgrade to a paid Usenet newsfeed and/or get an ISP with newsfeed
included.
> So naturally Tommy tried to turn it around and make it sound like my
> newsreader is the ONLY ONE IN THE WORLD that has this glitch.
>
> It's amusing (read: pathetic), really, but he'll doubtless have to get in
> his /de rigueur/ last word(s) on the subject. So be it.
>
> BS (jus' a little)
Gee Sorni, you DO NOT use a signature separator, so EVERYONE needs to
trim your signature line manually.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct wave
Point” - gene daniels
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 12 Aug 2007 20:50:18
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
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Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> Bill "Sorni" Sornson wrote:
>> Michael Press wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <46bf959e$0$16400$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
>>> "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
>>> <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bill "Sorni" Sornson wrote:
>>>>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>>> HTH
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
>>>>>> "Humans are not Peterbilt trucks..." - Jobst Brandt
>>>>> (Too lazy to erase it...yet again.)
>>>> Fix your newsreader - no one else seems to have this complaint.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
>>>> "Humans are not Peterbilt trucks..." - Jobst Brandt
>>> The acknowledged separator for signatures is
>>> newline dash dash space newline.
>>>
>>> Your messages use this string twice.
>>> Other people's news readers recognize the final such string,
>>> not the initial string. This is the source of the confusion.
>>
>> Indeed. All I did at first was question why his sig remained in
>> replies, as they do appear "faded". Didn't occur to me it was
>> because his cheap---- er, FREE Usenet account added a spam line to
>> every post (and he makes MANY!).
>
> If wages were what they were several decades ago for comparable work,
> I would upgrade to a paid Usenet newsfeed and/or get an ISP with
> newsfeed included.
Ah, so it's GEORGE BUSH'S FAULT that you choose to subject us all to Spam.
Got it. LOL
>> So naturally Tommy tried to turn it around and make it sound like my
>> newsreader is the ONLY ONE IN THE WORLD that has this glitch.
>>
>> It's amusing (read: pathetic), really, but he'll doubtless have to
>> get in his /de rigueur/ last word(s) on the subject. So be it.
>>
>> BS (jus' a little)
>
> Gee Sorni, you DO NOT use a signature separator, so EVERYONE needs to
> trim your signature line manually.
When I rarely use canned sig text (it's called a "file", Johnny), of course
I use a delineator. (Hell, it might even be auto-generated by my EVIL
newsreader! LOL )
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> “the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct wave
> Point” - gene daniels
--
There's a great power in words,
if you don't hitch too many of them together.
- Josh Billings
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Date: 12 Aug 2007 15:46:33
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
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On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 12:22:00 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me >
wrote:
>WHOOSH!
You're so lame. Unclear and unfunny and regularly resort to the
"whoosh" rather than explaining things properly. Actually you usually
can't explain things properly because what your'e thinking doesn't
make sense when laid out fully.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 09 Aug 2007 20:05:45
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>> From the Metheny and Burke e-newsletter today:
>>> Bicycle recall: Raleigh America and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety
>>> Commission are recalling 1,200 Chinese-made Raleigh Cadent bikes with
>>> Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks. The forks can break
>>> during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall. Raleigh
>>> has received three reports of fork failures, resulting in a dislocated
>>> shoulder, a concussion and a broken jaw....
> "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote:
>> I expect that we will see a lot more incidents/accidents like these as
>> cheap CFRP components made with questionable quality control become more
>> common.
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> There weren't recalls back in the day before carbon fiber use was
> common?
heh heh exactly. Before 'recalls' were common, bike shops and their
distributors repeated "never saw that before" at each failure.
Recalls are a proactive blessing to riders when handled well. That and
of course a CYA move on the part of the importer/manufacturer.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 09 Aug 2007 23:01:29
From: Victor Kan
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
...
> Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks. The forks can break
> during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall.
...
Hm...what does "carbonage" rhyme with? I suppose it's intended to be
pronounced with a French accent, like "menage"...
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Date: 09 Aug 2007 15:47:30
From: Joe Bernard
Subject: Re: Raleigh CF bike recall
|
On Aug 9, 10:33 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net > wrote:
> From the Metheny and Burke e-newsletter today:
>
> Bicycle recall: Raleigh America and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety
> Commission are recalling 1,200 Chinese-made Raleigh Cadent bikes with
> Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks. The forks can break
> during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall. Raleigh
> has received three reports of fork failures, resulting in a dislocated
> shoulder, a concussion and a broken jaw. The recall involves the 2007
> Raleigh Cadent 1.0, Cadent 2.0 and Cadent Carbon bicycle models with
> carbon forks. They were sold at Raleigh dealers nationwide from January
> through June 2007 for $660-$1,930. If you own one of these bikes, stop
> riding it and take it to the place of purchase for a free fork
> replacement. For more information, call Raleigh America toll-free at
> 888-805-6396 during 9-5 PT weekdays, or visithttp://www.raleighusa.com
Mmmmmm carbon!
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