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Date: 14 Oct 2007 19:47:27
From: landotter
Subject: Replace worn BB with cupncone or go modern cart?
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I just gave the neighbors back a circa 87 Bianchi road bike I semi-
overhauled for 'em--it started with "can you fix these wobbly wheels"
and ended up being one of those projects where you spend too much
time, because if you don't finish it, you previous work will rot in
their basement. I even ended up building them a new front wheel on a
hub I scrounged from the LBS's taco stand, as the original's bearings
looked like cinders, and the bearing races were a joke.
At any rate, I thought the BB to be OK at first, no play, but before I
brought the bike back, I did the ole take-off-the-chain-and-spin-for-
rumble check, and eesh--trashed. They came and knocked on my door
right after I discovered this with a six pack of micro-brew, so at
least there were libations to imbibe while dealing with it...
To make this whole question more convoluted is the rediscovery when
cracking the BB that traditional BBs are stupidly simple to service. I
couldn't find my hook spanner, and I've been using various pointy
things in lieu of pin spanners for years when dealing with these
things, but some channel lock pliers and a loose spoke do the same
job, albeit inelegantly.
Of course there was pitting and spalling--but I buttoned it up as good
as possible--and got to thinking--yeah, cartridge BBs are a damn nice
thing, totally fugghettaboutit tech, but cupncone BBs are also so
terribly easy to service, even with redneck improvisation...should I
ultimately throw a u series Shimano cart BB in there, or be a retro
grouch and get a new cupncone set?
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Date: 18 Oct 2007 17:13:40
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Replace worn BB with cupncone or go modern cart?
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On Oct 18, 6:48 pm, gill...@cs.ubc.ca (Donald Gillies) wrote:
> "yclept...@cs.com" <yclept...@cs.com> writes:
> >Go for cartridge. Simple. Elegant. Hassle Free.
> >After wearing out a Phil Wood BB for the second time on my commuter, I
> >went w/ the Shimano. It's lasted at least as long and is still going
> >strong.
>
> Md, that's a non-sequitor. You're recommending the use of a
> cartridge, because you've ruined 2x of the most reliable brand. I
> recommend the use of cup-and-cone BB because I've ruined none of them.
Well, I'm probably just going to put fresh uncaged balls in the old BB
anyway--as I think the guy is too cheap spring for a new cartridge--
non-bike people can be silly--but who cares, as the entire unit is
disposable now, so he can ride it till he feels the rumble in his
toes.
In my case, I'd have done the boring UN73 swap. I don't really see the
point of Phil BBs--because in the end you're relying on cartridge
bearing types that aren't meant to support the kind of loads BBs take.
Yeah, they're easy to service, but for the price of one set of carts
or less, ya can get a UN73. Phil hubs are another thing altogether.
Nice, but ultimately unnecessary for most. Gimme some 105s or even
Formulas if they're the nice ones.
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Date: 19 Oct 2007 00:18:34
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Replace worn BB with cupncone or go modern cart?
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landotter wrote:
> ...Phil hubs are another thing altogether.
> Nice, but ultimately unnecessary for most....
Who but Phil Wood would make custom OEM hubs [1] for special application
in small batches?
[1] Of which, I only have four [4] examples at the moment.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!
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Date: 18 Oct 2007 08:34:02
From: ycleptor2@cs.com
Subject: Re: Replace worn BB with cupncone or go modern cart?
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On Oct 15, 9:24 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Oct 14, 10:56 pm, gill...@cs.ubc.ca (Donald Gillies) wrote:
>
>
>
> > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > (to make a long story short ...)
>
> > >should I ultimately throw a u series Shimano cart BB in there, or be
> > >a retro grouch and get a new cupncone set?
>
> > The only cartridge bottom brackets worth installing are the durable
> > ones, which imho means UN-52/53, UN-71, UN-72, or a UN-series BB with
> > metal cups on both sides. check the reviews on roadbikereview.com or
> > mtbreview.com.
>
> > other cartridge bottom brackets aren't worth thinking about. Why
> > install something that will be a liability in 2-3 years of hard use?
>
> > If properly reinstalled and maintained, a cup-and-cone bottom bracket
> > has the very lowest friction and therefore the longest life, period.
> > I frankly have not managed to wear one out yet, after probably 20,000
> > miles of bike riding in my lifetime. Not only that, the parts can be
> > recycled or replaced individually.
>
> Heh, being in San Diego can't be too hard on a BB. ;-) Unfortunately,
> this kid's BB needs cups, bearings, and a new spindle. Probably I'll
> just go for the Shimano UN type--I've never managed to wear one out. I
> might try repacking with loose balls first--as the pitting on the
> cupsncones isn't nearly as severe as the tragic caged bearings.
>
>
>
> > I predict that in 20 years we'll look at cartridge bottom brackets the
> > way we think about syrofoam fast food packaging that went the way of
> > the dinosaur a decade ago.
>
> > Fast food bikeparts : just say no !!!
>
> I tend to agree, but there are some cheap good things in life like UN
> Shimano BBs, Tange Levins, Tektro brakes, and Sugino cranks.
>
> At least the important thing was accomplished, I convinced the guy to
> keep it a clicky 12 speed, instead of making it a fixed gear. In some
> ways, such older kit is even less fussy than fixed.
Go for cartridge. Simple. Elegant. Hassle Free.
After wearing out a Phil Wood BB for the second time on my commuter, I
went w/ the Shimano. It's lasted at least as long and is still going
strong.
Cheers,
Md
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Date: 18 Oct 2007 16:48:44
From: Donald Gillies
Subject: Re: Replace worn BB with cupncone or go modern cart?
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"ycleptor2@cs.com" <ycleptor2@cs.com > writes:
>Go for cartridge. Simple. Elegant. Hassle Free.
>After wearing out a Phil Wood BB for the second time on my commuter, I
>went w/ the Shimano. It's lasted at least as long and is still going
>strong.
Md, that's a non-sequitor. You're recommending the use of a
cartridge, because you've ruined 2x of the most reliable brand. I
recommend the use of cup-and-cone BB because I've ruined none of them.
Should we take your advice over mine ??
- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA
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Date: 15 Oct 2007 06:24:21
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Replace worn BB with cupncone or go modern cart?
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On Oct 14, 10:56 pm, gill...@cs.ubc.ca (Donald Gillies) wrote:
> landotter <landot...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> (to make a long story short ...)
>
> >should I ultimately throw a u series Shimano cart BB in there, or be
> >a retro grouch and get a new cupncone set?
>
> The only cartridge bottom brackets worth installing are the durable
> ones, which imho means UN-52/53, UN-71, UN-72, or a UN-series BB with
> metal cups on both sides. check the reviews on roadbikereview.com or
> mtbreview.com.
>
> other cartridge bottom brackets aren't worth thinking about. Why
> install something that will be a liability in 2-3 years of hard use?
>
> If properly reinstalled and maintained, a cup-and-cone bottom bracket
> has the very lowest friction and therefore the longest life, period.
> I frankly have not managed to wear one out yet, after probably 20,000
> miles of bike riding in my lifetime. Not only that, the parts can be
> recycled or replaced individually.
Heh, being in San Diego can't be too hard on a BB. ;-) Unfortunately,
this kid's BB needs cups, bearings, and a new spindle. Probably I'll
just go for the Shimano UN type--I've never managed to wear one out. I
might try repacking with loose balls first--as the pitting on the
cupsncones isn't nearly as severe as the tragic caged bearings.
>
> I predict that in 20 years we'll look at cartridge bottom brackets the
> way we think about syrofoam fast food packaging that went the way of
> the dinosaur a decade ago.
>
> Fast food bikeparts : just say no !!!
>
I tend to agree, but there are some cheap good things in life like UN
Shimano BBs, Tange Levins, Tektro brakes, and Sugino cranks.
At least the important thing was accomplished, I convinced the guy to
keep it a clicky 12 speed, instead of making it a fixed gear. In some
ways, such older kit is even less fussy than fixed.
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Date: 15 Oct 2007 13:00:09
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Replace worn BB with cupncone or go modern cart?
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I say this
cartridge bearings are like valvo synthetic transmission oil
the spin is perfect effortless eternal the elysian fields 15 mph 360
backwind apple pie vinella ice cream with blue mountain coffee ride
like armstrong a month with the Dallas cheerleaders at Bimini back to
back lottery wins peace in our time ...
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Date: 14 Oct 2007 21:02:42
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Replace worn BB with cupncone or go modern cart?
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landotter wrote:
> I just gave the neighbors back a circa 87 Bianchi road bike I semi-
> overhauled for 'em--it started with "can you fix these wobbly wheels"
> and ended up being one of those projects where you spend too much
> time, because if you don't finish it, you previous work will rot in
> their basement. I even ended up building them a new front wheel on a
> hub I scrounged from the LBS's taco stand, as the original's bearings
> looked like cinders, and the bearing races were a joke.
>
> At any rate, I thought the BB to be OK at first, no play, but before I
> brought the bike back, I did the ole take-off-the-chain-and-spin-for-
> rumble check, and eesh--trashed. They came and knocked on my door
> right after I discovered this with a six pack of micro-brew, so at
> least there were libations to imbibe while dealing with it...
>
> To make this whole question more convoluted is the rediscovery when
> cracking the BB that traditional BBs are stupidly simple to service. I
> couldn't find my hook spanner, and I've been using various pointy
> things in lieu of pin spanners for years when dealing with these
> things, but some channel lock pliers and a loose spoke do the same
> job, albeit inelegantly.
>
> Of course there was pitting and spalling--but I buttoned it up as good
> as possible--and got to thinking--yeah, cartridge BBs are a damn nice
> thing, totally fugghettaboutit tech, but cupncone BBs are also so
> terribly easy to service, even with redneck improvisation...should I
> ultimately throw a u series Shimano cart BB in there, or be a retro
> grouch and get a new cupncone set?
>
one thing often overlooked - with the cartridge, the bearings are
guaranteed aligned with each other. for the precision necessary to have
a really good fit with any other bearing system, it's almost impossible
where you have two independent threads. cartridge therefore wins. [and
you get better bearings. and you get better seals.]
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Date: 14 Oct 2007 20:56:40
From: Donald Gillies
Subject: Re: Replace worn BB with cupncone or go modern cart?
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landotter <landotter@gmail.com > writes:
(to make a long story short ...)
>should I ultimately throw a u series Shimano cart BB in there, or be
>a retro grouch and get a new cupncone set?
The only cartridge bottom brackets worth installing are the durable
ones, which imho means UN-52/53, UN-71, UN-72, or a UN-series BB with
metal cups on both sides. check the reviews on roadbikereview.com or
mtbreview.com.
other cartridge bottom brackets aren't worth thinking about. Why
install something that will be a liability in 2-3 years of hard use?
If properly reinstalled and maintained, a cup-and-cone bottom bracket
has the very lowest friction and therefore the longest life, period.
I frankly have not managed to wear one out yet, after probably 20,000
miles of bike riding in my lifetime. Not only that, the parts can be
recycled or replaced individually.
I predict that in 20 years we'll look at cartridge bottom brackets the
way we think about syrofoam fast food packaging that went the way of
the dinosaur a decade ago.
Fast food bikeparts : just say no !!!
- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA, USA
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Date: 14 Oct 2007 23:29:34
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Replace worn BB with cupncone or go modern cart?
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landotter wrote:
> terribly easy to service, even with redneck improvisation...should I
> ultimately throw a u series Shimano cart BB in there, or be a retro
> grouch and get a new cupncone set?
I would go with the cartridge, if the cranks fit. Cup and cone BB's are
easy to service, yes, which is rather fortunate since they have to be
serviced so often.
I just pulled out my 5-year-old Shimano BB from my road bike, since the
cranks were worn and uncool. Although it was pretty rusty -- just from
the bottom bracket itself, since the frame is titanium, it still was
smooth and tight after all that time, and maybe 20,000 miles.
--
David L. Johnson
You will say Christ saith this and the apostles say this; but what
canst thou say?
-- George Fox.
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