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Main
Date: 23 Jul 2007 14:04:48
From: jrees@jrees.net
Subject: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
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I have an FSA Mega-Exo crank and bottom bracket on my bike.
The bearings are beginning to sound a bit dodgy on riders, especially
after about two hours of riding. I see lots of companies offering
replacement bearings, in steel and ceramic for these outboards style
bottom brackets.
However, it looks like a special tool is required to remove and
replace the cartridges.
Is this tool absolutely necessary? Has anyone pulled the cartridges
and replaced them with, for example, the bearings available from
Enduro?
I'm pretty comfortable with working on bikes. I used to have the Dura
Ace bottom bracket and thought nothing of pulling it and tearing it
down for an overhaul.
John Rees
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 12:28:30
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 31, 11:46 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> In article
> <1185823850.848090.199...@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
> ,
> Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 29, 5:25 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <1185464551.934360.142...@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
> > > ,
> > > Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
> > > > The Madone uses standard bearing cartridges
>
> > > The only reason they use a standard cartridge bearing
> > > is that the cost of building a non-standard cartridge
> > > bearing is prohibitive, or rather more than the early
> > > adopters are willing to pay. No credit to Trek there.
>
> > Who's looking for credit? I'm just stating a fact: if the bearings on
> > the new Madone frame crap out, you just buy replacements from the
> > corner bearing store. That is more than you can say for any cartridge
> > BB that I know of.
>
> Every bottom bracket using a cartridge bearing uses a
> standard industrial cartridge bearing available at any
> supply house stocking bearings. By comparing this
> bottom bracket with other bottom brackets you _are_
> trying to credit Trek for this aspect to the design.
Even if there are standard bearings in cartridge BBs, you can't
replace them -- except on some BBs like Race Face or Phil, but even
then, you have to send the BB to the factory. On the Madone, you pop
the bearings in by hand. Now, I'm not saying that is a good thing if
it means that there is a sloppy fit and you ruin the crank spindle or
frame cups, but it is handy. I leave it to the engineers to determine
whether handy is stupid in this situation. -- Jay Beattie.
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 05:08:06
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
In article
<1185910110.033412.81210@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com >,
Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
> On Jul 31, 11:46 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <1185823850.848090.199...@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
> > ,
> > Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jul 29, 5:25 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <1185464551.934360.142...@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
> > > > ,
> > > > Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > The Madone uses standard bearing cartridges
> >
> > > > The only reason they use a standard cartridge bearing
> > > > is that the cost of building a non-standard cartridge
> > > > bearing is prohibitive, or rather more than the early
> > > > adopters are willing to pay. No credit to Trek there.
> >
> > > Who's looking for credit? I'm just stating a fact: if the bearings on
> > > the new Madone frame crap out, you just buy replacements from the
> > > corner bearing store. That is more than you can say for any cartridge
> > > BB that I know of.
> >
> > Every bottom bracket using a cartridge bearing uses a
> > standard industrial cartridge bearing available at any
> > supply house stocking bearings. By comparing this
> > bottom bracket with other bottom brackets you _are_
> > trying to credit Trek for this aspect to the design.
>
> Even if there are standard bearings in cartridge BBs, you can't
> replace them -- except on some BBs like Race Face or Phil, but even
> then, you have to send the BB to the factory. On the Madone, you pop
> the bearings in by hand. Now, I'm not saying that is a good thing if
> it means that there is a sloppy fit and you ruin the crank spindle or
> frame cups, but it is handy. I leave it to the engineers to determine
> whether handy is stupid in this situation. -- Jay Beattie.
You say that replacing a cartridge bearing is a factory
job but I do not believe you. Further you just skipped
over my challenge of your assertion "That is more than
you can say for any cartridge BB that I know of." Do
you know of any non-standard cartridge bearing in a
bicycle bottom bracket?
I will take it as ceded that you agree that you were
trying to credit Trek for using standard cartridge
bearings in their bottom brackets; when in fact it is
entirely impractical for them to design a non-standard
cartridge bearing for that application.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 21:50:41
From: Lou Holtman
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
Jay Beattie wrote:
>
> Even if there are standard bearings in cartridge BBs, you can't
> replace them -- except on some BBs like Race Face or Phil, but even
> then, you have to send the BB to the factory. On the Madone, you pop
> the bearings in by hand. Now, I'm not saying that is a good thing if
> it means that there is a sloppy fit and you ruin the crank spindle or
> frame cups, but it is handy. I leave it to the engineers to determine
> whether handy is stupid in this situation.
Lose fit on the axle and a lose fit in the BB shell. Mmmm... as an
engineer I'm not comfortable with that.
Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 05:00:49
From: almost_fast@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 30, 9:48 pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
> On Jul 25, 9:21 am, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
>
>
>
>
>
> <russellseat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 25, 8:10 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > On Jul 25, 7:04 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 24, 7:03 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Jul 24, 7:42 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com>
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > <snipped>
>
> > > > > - on BB bearings -
>
> > > > > > FSA bearings are the best
> > > > > > in the world
>
> > > > > ??they are??
>
> > > > Oppps, 'aren't' the best, is what i meant...
>
> > > I thought so....IMO, FSA bearings are fit for the LawnBoy, but not a
> > > quality bicycle.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Sort of off topic. But does FSA have their name/decal stamped/glued
> > to anything of good quality from their southeast asian sources?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I don't think so.
>
> Now back to Ozark, I was pondering whether that new Campy tork-o-matic
> crank would work on a Madone. It has its own pressed-on-to-the-arms
> bearings (which probably require their own special tool to remove). I
> don't know if those would seat in the Madone BB shell. If the whole
> world moved to that design, then their could be trouble in paradise.
> -- Jay Beattie.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Campy works, I've watched a friend installed them in a new Madone.
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Date: 30 Jul 2007 19:48:59
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 25, 9:21 am, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
<russellseat...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Jul 25, 8:10 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
>
>
>
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 25, 7:04 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 24, 7:03 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > On Jul 24, 7:42 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > <snipped>
>
> > > > - on BB bearings -
>
> > > > > FSA bearings are the best
> > > > > in the world
>
> > > > ??they are??
>
> > > Oppps, 'aren't' the best, is what i meant...
>
> > I thought so....IMO, FSA bearings are fit for the LawnBoy, but not a
> > quality bicycle.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Sort of off topic. But does FSA have their name/decal stamped/glued
> to anything of good quality from their southeast asian sources?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I don't think so.
Now back to Ozark, I was pondering whether that new Campy tork-o-matic
crank would work on a Madone. It has its own pressed-on-to-the-arms
bearings (which probably require their own special tool to remove). I
don't know if those would seat in the Madone BB shell. If the whole
world moved to that design, then their could be trouble in paradise.
-- Jay Beattie.
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Date: 30 Jul 2007 13:03:19
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 30, 2:30 pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
> On Jul 29, 5:25 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <1185464551.934360.142...@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
> > ,
> > Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
> > > The Madone uses standard bearing cartridges
>
> > The only reason they use a standard cartridge bearing
> > is that the cost of building a non-standard cartridge
> > bearing is prohibitive, or rather more than the early
> > adopters are willing to pay. No credit to Trek there.
>
> Who's looking for credit? I'm just stating a fact: if the bearings on
> the new Madone frame crap out, you just buy replacements from the
> corner bearing store. That is more than you can say for any cartridge
> BB that I know of.
>
> I don't get all the stuff about the Madone becoming a paper weight or
> wind chime if two piece cranks go away. If they stop making two-piece
> cranks, you put in a hollow adapter for whatever else comes along
> next.
You are assuming that "whatever comes along next" will fit in the
Madone BB shell with an adapter. IMO, that's a risky assumption. The
trend is toward "bigger, fatter", etc.
And, of course, there is no compatibility with the old threaded
standards, even if one wanted to use them....
Oooops, it's a wind chime!
> I also don't see two-piece cranks going away
Five years ago, someone could have easily said that very thing about
Octalink and/or ISIS. Things look *very* different now, eh?
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Date: 30 Jul 2007 12:30:50
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 29, 5:25 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> In article
> <1185464551.934360.142...@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
> ,
> Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
> > The Madone uses standard bearing cartridges
>
> The only reason they use a standard cartridge bearing
> is that the cost of building a non-standard cartridge
> bearing is prohibitive, or rather more than the early
> adopters are willing to pay. No credit to Trek there.
Who's looking for credit? I'm just stating a fact: if the bearings on
the new Madone frame crap out, you just buy replacements from the
corner bearing store. That is more than you can say for any cartridge
BB that I know of.
I don't get all the stuff about the Madone becoming a paper weight or
wind chime if two piece cranks go away. If they stop making two-piece
cranks, you put in a hollow adapter for whatever else comes along
next. I also don't see two-piece cranks going away -- we are not going
back to square drive, and ISIS BBs suck. That is why we got two-piece
cranks. Why aren't people worried about the lack brake bridges or
canti studs on their disc bikes. Discs could vanish from the face of
the earth any minute. -- Jay Beattie.
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| | |
Date: 31 Jul 2007 11:46:33
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
In article
<1185823850.848090.199150@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com >
,
Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
> On Jul 29, 5:25 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <1185464551.934360.142...@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
> > ,
> > Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The Madone uses standard bearing cartridges
> >
> > The only reason they use a standard cartridge bearing
> > is that the cost of building a non-standard cartridge
> > bearing is prohibitive, or rather more than the early
> > adopters are willing to pay. No credit to Trek there.
>
> Who's looking for credit? I'm just stating a fact: if the bearings on
> the new Madone frame crap out, you just buy replacements from the
> corner bearing store. That is more than you can say for any cartridge
> BB that I know of.
Every bottom bracket using a cartridge bearing uses a
standard industrial cartridge bearing available at any
supply house stocking bearings. By comparing this
bottom bracket with other bottom brackets you _are_
trying to credit Trek for this aspect to the design.
--
Michael Press
|
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Date: 29 Jul 2007 18:13:40
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 29, 7:59 pm, Kenny <Postoas...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Jul 27, 6:24 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> > But, what does the buyer get?
>
> He or she gets a feel good buzz.
And, a nice wall hanging in a few years. Or, perhaps, a wind chime.
>After all what's money for?
|
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Date: 29 Jul 2007 17:59:38
From: Kenny
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 27, 6:24 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
>
> But, what does the buyer get?
He or she gets a feel good buzz. After all what's money for?
|
| |
Date: 26 Jul 2007 15:24:43
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 26, 10:42 am, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
> On Jul 25, 6:24 pm, Ozark Bicycle<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Hot too many years ago, either Octalink or ISIS would have appeared to
> > be "the dominant technology", right? What was that you were recently
> > told by FSA regarding ISIS BBs?
>
> You are absolutely right: we are whirling through too many
> "standards," but the industry clearly has moved on to the two piece
> crank whether we like it or not. If you believe we will oscillate
> back to the solid spindle, cup and ball or cartridge bottom bracket,
> then you do not want to buy the Madone. I don't think we will go
> back. Even Campy has moved on.
>
> > At least both Octalink and ISIS used standard BB dimensions. Imagine
> > if someone had designed a frame to only accept Octalink or ISIS
> > spindles.....what would that frame be worth at this time?
>
> The Madone uses standard bearing cartridges, you just have to hope
> that the crank spindle "standard" does not change. If it does, I
> could easily see an adapter -- a pipe spindle with snap clip retainers
> and a square taper (?) end -- like the old Klein BBs (except with
> standard bearings).
>
>
>
> > >, and (2) the frame uses
> > > common sized cartridge bearings. With all the other novelties you
> > > mention, if it breaks, your're screwed unless the manufacture has a
> > > replacement sitting around in a store room or a museum. If the
> > > bearings crap out on the Trek, you go to your local bearing shop and
> > > order up some replacements. Probably cheaper than buying replacements
> > > for standard outboard cups. And more importantly, you don't land on
> > > your face if the bearings break, like with the Viscount fork.
>
> > But, someone has to be in the business of making the now current pipe
> > style BB cranks. If not, the frame is useless.
>
> Unless an adapter is made like I said above. People adapted with
> Kleins, Viscounts and other BB shells with no threads and pressed in
> bearings (although standard width shells). I don't think Trek would
> leave its customers high and dry.
We could go back and forth on this....but, the question that seems to
remain unanswered is this: other than a small (meaningless to most)
weight reduction, where is the benefit to the customer? What does the
consumer receive in exchange for buying a frame that carries with it
this risk of obsolesence?
The gains for Trek are obvious: lower parts cost, lower labor costs, a
leg up in the weight weenie sweepstakes and the chance to blow a big
puff of smoke up the cycling public's butt.
But, what does the buyer get?
|
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Date: 26 Jul 2007 08:42:31
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 25, 6:24 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
<snip >
> Hot too many years ago, either Octalink or ISIS would have appeared to
> be "the dominant technology", right? What was that you were recently
> told by FSA regarding ISIS BBs?
You are absolutely right: we are whirling through too many
"standards," but the industry clearly has moved on to the two piece
crank whether we like it or not. If you believe we will oscillate
back to the solid spindle, cup and ball or cartridge bottom bracket,
then you do not want to buy the Madone. I don't think we will go
back. Even Campy has moved on.
> At least both Octalink and ISIS used standard BB dimensions. Imagine
> if someone had designed a frame to only accept Octalink or ISIS
> spindles.....what would that frame be worth at this time?
The Madone uses standard bearing cartridges, you just have to hope
that the crank spindle "standard" does not change. If it does, I
could easily see an adapter -- a pipe spindle with snap clip retainers
and a square taper (?) end -- like the old Klein BBs (except with
standard bearings).
>
> >, and (2) the frame uses
> > common sized cartridge bearings. With all the other novelties you
> > mention, if it breaks, your're screwed unless the manufacture has a
> > replacement sitting around in a store room or a museum. If the
> > bearings crap out on the Trek, you go to your local bearing shop and
> > order up some replacements. Probably cheaper than buying replacements
> > for standard outboard cups. And more importantly, you don't land on
> > your face if the bearings break, like with the Viscount fork.
>
> But, someone has to be in the business of making the now current pipe
> style BB cranks. If not, the frame is useless.
Unless an adapter is made like I said above. People adapted with
Kleins, Viscounts and other BB shells with no threads and pressed in
bearings (although standard width shells). I don't think Trek would
leave its customers high and dry. -- Jay Beattie.
|
| | |
Date: 29 Jul 2007 17:25:18
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
In article
<1185464551.934360.142900@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com >
,
Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
> The Madone uses standard bearing cartridges
The only reason they use a standard cartridge bearing
is that the cost of building a non-standard cartridge
bearing is prohibitive, or rather more than the early
adopters are willing to pay. No credit to Trek there.
--
Michael Press
|
| |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 19:11:07
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 25, 5:49 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> > Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >>>http://www2.trekbikes.com/madone/technology/efficiency/#more
> >> What do you expect them to say?? Something like: "We did this to lower
> >> our parts and labor costs. The fact that the frame might be absolutely
> >> useless in the future is of no concern to us. In fact, it probably
> >> means we get to sell all you credulous morons a new frame sooner
> >> rather than later." ???
>
> Doug Taylor wrote:
> > Who cares what they SAY? Any cretin (except apparently one from the
> > Ozarks) can look at the pretty photos and figure out that the design
> > is simpler, more elegant, lighter, and requires less parts than any
> > standard bb.
> > And how do figure the frame could ever become useless? There are no
> > threads, it requires no bb, it fits most (all?) outboard bearing
> > cranks. Are you on crack or just retarded?
>
> Perhaps he's a former Lambert-Viscount-Trusty owner ( New! Improved
> press-in BB! New lighter thinwall tube construction! New cast aluminum
> fork!)
> Perhaps he had a 9/16" stem Klein bike (new! improved!)
> Maybe an EVO quill fork? (New! Improved! More rigid!)
> Maybe a version I Shimano spline BB?(Sir, that noise your tandem BB can
> be rectified for about $350)
>
> Many riders are reasonably cynical about 'improvements' from FFS-PPS to
> press-in BB systems.
>
> Surely, as many riders will pay extra for new untested products as avoid
> them and so progress marches, Schumpeter-like, onward. Write back in ten
> years to see how these Treks work out. If no one ever danced outside
> accepted proven designs we'd never get anywhere.
> --
Sure, but, what does the Madone BB design do for the end user, other
than save a little weight at the risk of a frame that may become
useless due to it's BB design?
Sure, it's all good news for Trek: cheaper parts cost, lower labor
costs, a leg up in the weight weenie sweepstakes and a ton of new hype
and marketing BS.
But it does almost nothing for the consumer.
|
| |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 18:24:13
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 25, 6:41 pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
> On Jul 25, 3:49 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > >>>http://www2.trekbikes.com/madone/technology/efficiency/#more
> > >> What do you expect them to say?? Something like: "We did this to lower
> > >> our parts and labor costs. The fact that the frame might be absolutely
> > >> useless in the future is of no concern to us. In fact, it probably
> > >> means we get to sell all you credulous morons a new frame sooner
> > >> rather than later." ???
>
> > Doug Taylor wrote:
> > > Who cares what they SAY? Any cretin (except apparently one from the
> > > Ozarks) can look at the pretty photos and figure out that the design
> > > is simpler, more elegant, lighter, and requires less parts than any
> > > standard bb.
> > > And how do figure the frame could ever become useless? There are no
> > > threads, it requires no bb, it fits most (all?) outboard bearing
> > > cranks. Are you on crack or just retarded?
>
> > Perhaps he's a former Lambert-Viscount-Trusty owner ( New! Improved
> > press-in BB! New lighter thinwall tube construction! New cast aluminum
> > fork!)
> > Perhaps he had a 9/16" stem Klein bike (new! improved!)
> > Maybe an EVO quill fork? (New! Improved! More rigid!)
> > Maybe a version I Shimano spline BB?(Sir, that noise your tandem BB can
> > be rectified for about $350)
>
> > Many riders are reasonably cynical about 'improvements' from FFS-PPS to
> > press-in BB systems.
>
> > Surely, as many riders will pay extra for new untested products as avoid
> > them and so progress marches, Schumpeter-like, onward. Write back in ten
> > years to see how these Treks work out. If no one ever danced outside
> > accepted proven designs we'd never get anywhere.
>
> I don't think it is so dire for two reasons: (1) the Madone relies on
> the dominant technology -- the two piece crank
Hot too many years ago, either Octalink or ISIS would have appeared to
be "the dominant technology", right? What was that you were recently
told by FSA regarding ISIS BBs?
At least both Octalink and ISIS used standard BB dimensions. Imagine
if someone had designed a frame to only accept Octalink or ISIS
spindles.....what would that frame be worth at this time?
>, and (2) the frame uses
> common sized cartridge bearings. With all the other novelties you
> mention, if it breaks, your're screwed unless the manufacture has a
> replacement sitting around in a store room or a museum. If the
> bearings crap out on the Trek, you go to your local bearing shop and
> order up some replacements. Probably cheaper than buying replacements
> for standard outboard cups. And more importantly, you don't land on
> your face if the bearings break, like with the Viscount fork.
But, someone has to be in the business of making the now current pipe
style BB cranks. If not, the frame is useless.
>
> Trek has a lifetime warranty on its frame and it will be around in to
> the foreseeable future. If I were going to take a chance, it would be
> on a Trek. But the Madone does not appear to be all that chancy since
> it uses pretty common stuff. -- Jay Beattie.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
|
| |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 18:15:55
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 25, 4:00 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:16:23 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >>http://www2.trekbikes.com/madone/technology/efficiency/#more
>
> >What do you expect them to say?? Something like: "We did this to lower
> >our parts and labor costs. The fact that the frame might be absolutely
> >useless in the future is of no concern to us. In fact, it probably
> >means we get to sell all you credulous morons a new frame sooner
> >rather than later." ???
>
> Who cares what they SAY? Any cretin (except apparently one from the
> Ozarks) can look at the pretty photos and figure out that the design
> is simpler, more elegant, lighter, and requires less parts than any
> standard bb.
>
> And how do figure the frame could ever become useless? There are no
> threads, it requires no bb, it fits most (all?) outboard bearing
> cranks. Are you on crack or just retarded?
It requires that someone make parts that work in the shell as it sits,
fuckwit. You know, spindles, crankarms to attach to the spindles, etc.
IOW, moron, when (not if) Shimano, Campy and the rest "move on" to new
BB designs, this frame is a wall hanging. This has happened before.
read some bike history.....or have someone read it *to* you, at
bedtime.
|
| |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 16:41:55
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 25, 3:49 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> > Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >>>http://www2.trekbikes.com/madone/technology/efficiency/#more
> >> What do you expect them to say?? Something like: "We did this to lower
> >> our parts and labor costs. The fact that the frame might be absolutely
> >> useless in the future is of no concern to us. In fact, it probably
> >> means we get to sell all you credulous morons a new frame sooner
> >> rather than later." ???
>
> Doug Taylor wrote:
> > Who cares what they SAY? Any cretin (except apparently one from the
> > Ozarks) can look at the pretty photos and figure out that the design
> > is simpler, more elegant, lighter, and requires less parts than any
> > standard bb.
> > And how do figure the frame could ever become useless? There are no
> > threads, it requires no bb, it fits most (all?) outboard bearing
> > cranks. Are you on crack or just retarded?
>
> Perhaps he's a former Lambert-Viscount-Trusty owner ( New! Improved
> press-in BB! New lighter thinwall tube construction! New cast aluminum
> fork!)
> Perhaps he had a 9/16" stem Klein bike (new! improved!)
> Maybe an EVO quill fork? (New! Improved! More rigid!)
> Maybe a version I Shimano spline BB?(Sir, that noise your tandem BB can
> be rectified for about $350)
>
> Many riders are reasonably cynical about 'improvements' from FFS-PPS to
> press-in BB systems.
>
> Surely, as many riders will pay extra for new untested products as avoid
> them and so progress marches, Schumpeter-like, onward. Write back in ten
> years to see how these Treks work out. If no one ever danced outside
> accepted proven designs we'd never get anywhere.
I don't think it is so dire for two reasons: (1) the Madone relies on
the dominant technology -- the two piece crank, and (2) the frame uses
common sized cartridge bearings. With all the other novelties you
mention, if it breaks, your're screwed unless the manufacture has a
replacement sitting around in a store room or a museum. If the
bearings crap out on the Trek, you go to your local bearing shop and
order up some replacements. Probably cheaper than buying replacements
for standard outboard cups. And more importantly, you don't land on
your face if the bearings break, like with the Viscount fork.
Trek has a lifetime warranty on its frame and it will be around in to
the foreseeable future. If I were going to take a chance, it would be
on a Trek. But the Madone does not appear to be all that chancy since
it uses pretty common stuff. -- Jay Beattie.
|
| | |
Date: 26 Jul 2007 09:29:06
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 16:41:55 -0700, Jay Beattie
<jbeattie@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
>I don't think it is so dire for two reasons: (1) the Madone relies on
>the dominant technology -- the two piece crank, and (2) the frame uses
>common sized cartridge bearings. With all the other novelties you
>mention, if it breaks, your're screwed unless the manufacture has a
>replacement sitting around in a store room or a museum. If the
>bearings crap out on the Trek, you go to your local bearing shop and
>order up some replacements. Probably cheaper than buying replacements
>for standard outboard cups. And more importantly, you don't land on
>your face if the bearings break, like with the Viscount fork.
>
>Trek has a lifetime warranty on its frame and it will be around in to
>the foreseeable future. If I were going to take a chance, it would be
>on a Trek. But the Madone does not appear to be all that chancy since
>it uses pretty common stuff. -- Jay Beattie.
Thank you. Someone else who knows how to think.
Anybody who wrenches their own equipment knows that the Trek
integrated bb frame design makes a ton of sense. I'm not going out on
any limb extolling the virtues of a design that industry tech guru
Lennard Zinn thinks is revolutionary.
In 3 years every manufacturer of carbon frames will produce at least
one model with the same design, if not the majority. It's simple
common sense.
|
| |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 09:21:19
From: russellseaton1@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 25, 8:10 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Jul 25, 7:04 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 24, 7:03 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > On Jul 24, 7:42 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > <snipped>
>
> > > - on BB bearings -
>
> > > > FSA bearings are the best
> > > > in the world
>
> > > ??they are??
>
> > Oppps, 'aren't' the best, is what i meant...
>
> I thought so....IMO, FSA bearings are fit for the LawnBoy, but not a
> quality bicycle.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Sort of off topic. But does FSA have their name/decal stamped/glued
to anything of good quality from their southeast asian sources?
|
| |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 07:16:23
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 25, 9:01 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 06:25:47 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> >The design of the Madone BB shell is intended to ease production line
> >bicycle assembly, lower parts costs and, as an additional "benefit',
> >lower the weight. Anyone who thinks Trek was concerned about ease of
> >BB service is being *incredibly* naive.
>
> I'm incredibly naive.
Yep.
> I read their literature:
>
> http://www2.trekbikes.com/madone/technology/efficiency/#more
What do you expect them to say?? Something like: "We did this to lower
our parts and labor costs. The fact that the frame might be absolutely
useless in the future is of no concern to us. In fact, it probably
means we get to sell all you credulous morons a new frame sooner
rather than later." ???
>
> I'd rather be incredibly naive than a wool jersey wearing retrogrouch.
>
> I agree with Lennard Zinn and will make you a bet: in 3 years, every
> manufacturer will copy this integrated bb design, the same way they
> did integrated headsets.
And integrated headsets were widely adopted as a benefit to the
consumer, right?
Wanna buy a bridge? You'll earn the purchase price back in no time by
charging tolls! Cash only. 'tho...... and no receipt, but we'll send
the title in the mail at a later date.
> Loser buys the winner a frame (I can get the
> one you want at a garage sale).
|
| | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 17:00:04
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:16:23 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
>> http://www2.trekbikes.com/madone/technology/efficiency/#more
>
>
>What do you expect them to say?? Something like: "We did this to lower
>our parts and labor costs. The fact that the frame might be absolutely
>useless in the future is of no concern to us. In fact, it probably
>means we get to sell all you credulous morons a new frame sooner
>rather than later." ???
Who cares what they SAY? Any cretin (except apparently one from the
Ozarks) can look at the pretty photos and figure out that the design
is simpler, more elegant, lighter, and requires less parts than any
standard bb.
And how do figure the frame could ever become useless? There are no
threads, it requires no bb, it fits most (all?) outboard bearing
cranks. Are you on crack or just retarded?
|
| | | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 17:49:14
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
> Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>> http://www2.trekbikes.com/madone/technology/efficiency/#more
>> What do you expect them to say?? Something like: "We did this to lower
>> our parts and labor costs. The fact that the frame might be absolutely
>> useless in the future is of no concern to us. In fact, it probably
>> means we get to sell all you credulous morons a new frame sooner
>> rather than later." ???
>
Doug Taylor wrote:
> Who cares what they SAY? Any cretin (except apparently one from the
> Ozarks) can look at the pretty photos and figure out that the design
> is simpler, more elegant, lighter, and requires less parts than any
> standard bb.
> And how do figure the frame could ever become useless? There are no
> threads, it requires no bb, it fits most (all?) outboard bearing
> cranks. Are you on crack or just retarded?
Perhaps he's a former Lambert-Viscount-Trusty owner ( New! Improved
press-in BB! New lighter thinwall tube construction! New cast aluminum
fork!)
Perhaps he had a 9/16" stem Klein bike (new! improved!)
Maybe an EVO quill fork? (New! Improved! More rigid!)
Maybe a version I Shimano spline BB?(Sir, that noise your tandem BB can
be rectified for about $350)
Many riders are reasonably cynical about 'improvements' from FFS-PPS to
press-in BB systems.
Surely, as many riders will pay extra for new untested products as avoid
them and so progress marches, Schumpeter-like, onward. Write back in ten
years to see how these Treks work out. If no one ever danced outside
accepted proven designs we'd never get anywhere.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 06:25:47
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 25, 7:11 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com >
wrote:
> On Jul 24, 7:27 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:44:32 -0000, Qui si parla Campagnolo
>
> > <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> > >> All this b.s. is a good reason why the new Trek Madone frame, with it
> > >> "integrated bottom bracket" and the ability to install cartridges by
> > >> hand directly in the frame, without tools, not to mention cups or any
> > >> bb at all, makes a ton of sense.
>
> > >Yep, as long as youi have a outboard bearing type crank...Lots of DA,
> > >Ultegra, Campag, FSA, Truvativ, etc., non outboard bearing cranks
> > >that cannot be installed.
>
> > That's a non sequitur. If you have a new Madone, or a new Madone
> > frame, you have a new crank, which will be outboard bearing. And,
> > you are not limited to a particular brand.
>
> Why would that be? No frame only sales??
>
>
>
> > As to servicing outboard bearing bbs: I posted my low tech version
> > of removing and installing bearing cartridges from and into the cups.
>
> > Enduro sells tools which work better than my feeble jury rigging:http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2007/reviews/enduro_beari...
>
> > For a mere $112 I can own this tool:http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/p/TL8901
>
> > Explain to me again why Trek's innovation of eliminating the cups -
> > indeed, the bottom bracket - the multiple tools, the hassle, the
> > expense, the weight for god's sake - is a bad idea?
>
> Not a fan of anything that takes decsisions away from thew rider.
>
>
>
> > You install the bearings by hand and the crank with one freaking allen
> > wrench. Period.
>
> Depends on the crank..many(most) use more than one freaking allen
> wrench.
>
>
>
> > Why would I want any frame which has threads and requires a bottom
> > bracket, a crankset, and a bunch of tools? Not to mention having to
> > get the threads faced if I want an outboard bearing crank.
>
> Bunch of tools? Even with a DA 7800 crank there are only 2 needed and
> one comes with the crank.
>
>
>
> > Maybe as a bike shop owner you have a vested interest in preventing us
> > amateurs from wrenching our own bikes?
>
> I don't like it when a customer wants to do something but the
> 'industry' makes it hard or impossible to do.
> Don't sell Treks, don't want to but it will be a shame when somebody
> wants that oberframe, already has a Record carbon crank(square taper-
> nice crank) or a Campagnolo triple(nice cranks) but can't use it. It
> has nothing to do with ease of maintanence and believe ot or not, most
> bike owners/riders prefer to not work on their own bikes.
The design of the Madone BB shell is intended to ease production line
bicycle assembly, lower parts costs and, as an additional "benefit',
lower the weight. Anyone who thinks Trek was concerned about ease of
BB service is being *incredibly* naive.
And, of course, these WunderBikes will be absolutely useless in the
future if the current 'pipe style' BB designs are replaced with
something !!!NEW!!!
|
| | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 10:01:02
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 06:25:47 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
>
>The design of the Madone BB shell is intended to ease production line
>bicycle assembly, lower parts costs and, as an additional "benefit',
>lower the weight. Anyone who thinks Trek was concerned about ease of
>BB service is being *incredibly* naive.
I'm incredibly naive. I read their literature:
http://www2.trekbikes.com/madone/technology/efficiency/#more
I'd rather be incredibly naive than a wool jersey wearing retrogrouch.
I agree with Lennard Zinn and will make you a bet: in 3 years, every
manufacturer will copy this integrated bb design, the same way they
did integrated headsets. Loser buys the winner a frame (I can get the
one you want at a garage sale).
|
| |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 06:10:51
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 25, 7:04 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com >
wrote:
> On Jul 24, 7:03 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 24, 7:42 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > <snipped>
>
> > - on BB bearings -
>
> > > FSA bearings are the best
> > > in the world
>
> > ??they are??
>
> Oppps, 'aren't' the best, is what i meant...
I thought so....IMO, FSA bearings are fit for the LawnBoy, but not a
quality bicycle.
|
| |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 12:11:06
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 24, 7:27 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:44:32 -0000, Qui si parla Campagnolo
>
> <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> >> All this b.s. is a good reason why the new Trek Madone frame, with it
> >> "integrated bottom bracket" and the ability to install cartridges by
> >> hand directly in the frame, without tools, not to mention cups or any
> >> bb at all, makes a ton of sense.
>
> >Yep, as long as youi have a outboard bearing type crank...Lots of DA,
> >Ultegra, Campag, FSA, Truvativ, etc., non outboard bearing cranks
> >that cannot be installed.
>
> That's a non sequitur. If you have a new Madone, or a new Madone
> frame, you have a new crank, which will be outboard bearing. And,
> you are not limited to a particular brand.
Why would that be? No frame only sales??
>
> As to servicing outboard bearing bbs: I posted my low tech version
> of removing and installing bearing cartridges from and into the cups.
>
> Enduro sells tools which work better than my feeble jury rigging:http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2007/reviews/enduro_beari...
>
> For a mere $112 I can own this tool:http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/p/TL8901
>
> Explain to me again why Trek's innovation of eliminating the cups -
> indeed, the bottom bracket - the multiple tools, the hassle, the
> expense, the weight for god's sake - is a bad idea?
Not a fan of anything that takes decsisions away from thew rider.
>
> You install the bearings by hand and the crank with one freaking allen
> wrench. Period.
Depends on the crank..many(most) use more than one freaking allen
wrench.
>
> Why would I want any frame which has threads and requires a bottom
> bracket, a crankset, and a bunch of tools? Not to mention having to
> get the threads faced if I want an outboard bearing crank.
Bunch of tools? Even with a DA 7800 crank there are only 2 needed and
one comes with the crank.
>
> Maybe as a bike shop owner you have a vested interest in preventing us
> amateurs from wrenching our own bikes?
I don't like it when a customer wants to do something but the
'industry' makes it hard or impossible to do.
Don't sell Treks, don't want to but it will be a shame when somebody
wants that oberframe, already has a Record carbon crank(square taper-
nice crank) or a Campagnolo triple(nice cranks) but can't use it. It
has nothing to do with ease of maintanence and believe ot or not, most
bike owners/riders prefer to not work on their own bikes.
|
| | |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 12:05:36
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Aug 1, 1:55 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> In article
> <1185982526.673859.31...@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 31, 10:08 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <1185910110.033412.81...@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
> > > Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 31, 11:46 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > > > > <1185823850.848090.199...@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
> > > > > ,
> > > > > Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Jul 29, 5:25 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > <1185464551.934360.142...@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
> > > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > The Madone uses standard bearing cartridges
>
> > > > > > > The only reason they use a standard cartridge bearing
> > > > > > > is that the cost of building a non-standard cartridge
> > > > > > > bearing is prohibitive, or rather more than the early
> > > > > > > adopters are willing to pay. No credit to Trek there.
>
> > > > > > Who's looking for credit? I'm just stating a fact: if the bearings on
> > > > > > the new Madone frame crap out, you just buy replacements from the
> > > > > > corner bearing store. That is more than you can say for any cartridge
> > > > > > BB that I know of.
>
> > > > > Every bottom bracket using a cartridge bearing uses a
> > > > > standard industrial cartridge bearing available at any
> > > > > supply house stocking bearings. By comparing this
> > > > > bottom bracket with other bottom brackets you _are_
> > > > > trying to credit Trek for this aspect to the design.
>
> > > > Even if there are standard bearings in cartridge BBs, you can't
> > > > replace them -- except on some BBs like Race Face or Phil, but even
> > > > then, you have to send the BB to the factory. On the Madone, you pop
> > > > the bearings in by hand. Now, I'm not saying that is a good thing if
> > > > it means that there is a sloppy fit and you ruin the crank spindle or
> > > > frame cups, but it is handy. I leave it to the engineers to determine
> > > > whether handy is stupid in this situation. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> > > You say that replacing a cartridge bearing is a factory
> > > job but I do not believe you. Further you just skipped
> > > over my challenge of your assertion "That is more than
> > > you can say for any cartridge BB that I know of." Do
> > > you know of any non-standard cartridge bearing in a
> > > bicycle bottom bracket?
>
> > > I will take it as ceded that you agree that you were
> > > trying to credit Trek for using standard cartridge
> > > bearings in their bottom brackets; when in fact it is
> > > entirely impractical for them to design a non-standard
> > > cartridge bearing for that application.
>
> > Gawd, I feel like I am in a highschool debating class (a bad one).
> > Again, I am not stroking Trek for using standard bearings -- or for
> > anything, although I do like the people I know who work there and have
> > a lot of respect for the company for a number of reasons (disclaimer).
>
> Here you say "I am not stroking Trek for using standard
> bearings " But you are. Which cartridge bottom brackets
> use non-standard cartridge bearings? None. Since all
> cartridge bottom brackets use standard cartridge
> bearings, saying that Trek does is crediting them where
> no credit is due. They and their customers cannnot
> afford to buy a non-standard cartridge bearing, so Trek
> uses a standard cartridge bearing, the same as
> everybody else.
>
> > I was pointing out to the doom and gloomers (Madone as wind chime)
> > that the bearings were standard and could be replaced. I do think Trek
> > should be credited for using bearings that are user replaceable. And,
> > finally, please feel free to change the bearings yourself in your
> > cartridge BBs -- I have not been able to do that, and I have been
> > buying cartridge BBs since the 70s. I used to stand around Phil
> > Wood's shop and watch him or one of his workers change the cartridges
> > in my first gen BBs. They had to do it for me, being that I did not
> > have a big hand operated press at home.
>
> Replacing interference fit cartridge bearings is not
> exclusively a factory job. Several guys here do it at
> home with home tools.
>
> Also a couple of guys who are skilled
> mechanics/engineers have commented that cartridge
> bearings that are not an interference fit are a bad
> idea, since the portion of the interface that should be
> an interference fit is free to move and wear away
> material. What steps does Trek take to mitigate this
> problem?
>
>
None that I'm aware of; perhaps a Trek dealer with some first hand
knowledge can comment on this (?).
|
| | |
Date: 26 Jul 2007 14:43:04
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 26, 10:45 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com > wrote:
>
> Or the in-bred wool jersey wearing dipshit retrogrouch from the
> Ozarks?
Let's not mince words, Douggie: go fuck yerself.
*plonk*
|
| | | |
Date: 26 Jul 2007 18:05:17
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 14:43:04 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
>On Jul 26, 10:45 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Or the in-bred wool jersey wearing dipshit retrogrouch from the
>> Ozarks?
>
>Let's not mince words, Douggie: go fuck yerself.
Hey, Ozark is quoting Dick Cheney. Go figure.
I guess the inbred hillbilly can't take it when somebody fights back
on his level.
Boo hoo.
Let's not mince words, Ozone: go fuck yer sister.
|
| | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 09:51:21
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:11:06 -0000, Qui si parla Campagnolo
<peter@vecchios.com > wrote:
>> That's a non sequitur. If you have a new Madone, or a new Madone
>> frame, you have a new crank, which will be outboard bearing. And,
>> you are not limited to a particular brand.
>
>Why would that be? No frame only sales??
What part of "new Madone, or a new Madone frame" blew past you? Either
way, you get anew outboard bearing crank.
>> You install the bearings by hand and the crank with one freaking allen
>> wrench. Period.
>
>Depends on the crank..many(most) use more than one freaking allen
>wrench.
Let's see. Mine also has a fixing screw, but it stays in place. Some
have pinch bolts. My point was no threads, no cups, no tool needed
for the cups, no labor to install or remove.
|
| | | |
Date: 10 Aug 2007 22:55:30
From: Bob Quindazzi
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:51:21 -0400, Doug Taylor
<dtaylor@dreamscape.com > wrote:
>On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:11:06 -0000, Qui si parla Campagnolo
><peter@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
>>> That's a non sequitur. If you have a new Madone, or a new Madone
>>> frame, you have a new crank, which will be outboard bearing. And,
>>> you are not limited to a particular brand.
>>
>>Why would that be? No frame only sales??
>
>What part of "new Madone, or a new Madone frame" blew past you? Either
>way, you get anew outboard bearing crank.
>
>>> You install the bearings by hand and the crank with one freaking allen
>>> wrench. Period.
>>
>>Depends on the crank..many(most) use more than one freaking allen
>>wrench.
>
>Let's see. Mine also has a fixing screw, but it stays in place. Some
>have pinch bolts. My point was no threads, no cups, no tool needed
>for the cups, no labor to install or remove.
>
How are the bearings retained in the BB shell?
Are the bearings a mild press fit on the shaft?
Does anybody have a link to good pictures of the outborard bearing/ 2
piece cranks?
I've been away from cylcling for about 3-4 years, and left when the
Octa-link was the new set-up.
From reading this thread, I assume there was some fatal flaw that made
it obsolete. Was it, as Jobst said, the reverse torque that killed
it?
Are replacemnet bottom brackets still available?
|
| | | | |
Date: 10 Aug 2007 20:32:05
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
Bob Quindazzi wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:51:21 -0400, Doug Taylor
> <dtaylor@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:11:06 -0000, Qui si parla Campagnolo
>> <peter@vecchios.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> That's a non sequitur. If you have a new Madone, or a new Madone
>>>> frame, you have a new crank, which will be outboard bearing. And,
>>>> you are not limited to a particular brand.
>>> Why would that be? No frame only sales??
>> What part of "new Madone, or a new Madone frame" blew past you? Either
>> way, you get anew outboard bearing crank.
>>
>>>> You install the bearings by hand and the crank with one freaking allen
>>>> wrench. Period.
>>> Depends on the crank..many(most) use more than one freaking allen
>>> wrench.
>> Let's see. Mine also has a fixing screw, but it stays in place. Some
>> have pinch bolts. My point was no threads, no cups, no tool needed
>> for the cups, no labor to install or remove.
>>
>
>
> How are the bearings retained in the BB shell?
they're not /in/ the shell - they're external. the bearing carriers
screw into the shell as normal.
>
> Are the bearings a mild press fit on the shaft?
depends on the crank!
>
>
> Does anybody have a link to good pictures of the outborard bearing/ 2
> piece cranks?
go to a bike shop - you can examine in person.
>
> I've been away from cylcling for about 3-4 years, and left when the
> Octa-link was the new set-up.
>
> From reading this thread, I assume there was some fatal flaw that made
> it obsolete.
no, the only "fatal flaw" was the fact that a larger spindle can be made
lighter for the same or greater stiffness, and with a larger spindle,
you can't fit the bearings inside the shell.
> Was it, as Jobst said, the reverse torque that killed
> it?
no, as you might surmise from the fact that octalink has been in daily
use by millions for over a decade with only a handful of bleatings here
on r.b.t, that was just jobst hypothesizing without bothering to test or
examine the interface closely enough. situation normal.
>
> Are replacemnet bottom brackets still available?
of course.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 10 Aug 2007 23:54:05
From: Bob Quindazzi
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 20:32:05 -0700, jim beam
<spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote:
>Bob Quindazzi wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:51:21 -0400, Doug Taylor
>> <dtaylor@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:11:06 -0000, Qui si parla Campagnolo
>>> <peter@vecchios.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> That's a non sequitur. If you have a new Madone, or a new Madone
>>>>> frame, you have a new crank, which will be outboard bearing. And,
>>>>> you are not limited to a particular brand.
>>>> Why would that be? No frame only sales??
>>> What part of "new Madone, or a new Madone frame" blew past you? Either
>>> way, you get anew outboard bearing crank.
>>>
>>>>> You install the bearings by hand and the crank with one freaking allen
>>>>> wrench. Period.
>>>> Depends on the crank..many(most) use more than one freaking allen
>>>> wrench.
>>> Let's see. Mine also has a fixing screw, but it stays in place. Some
>>> have pinch bolts. My point was no threads, no cups, no tool needed
>>> for the cups, no labor to install or remove.
>>>
>>
>>
>> How are the bearings retained in the BB shell?
>
>they're not /in/ the shell - they're external. the bearing carriers
>screw into the shell as normal.
I meant the Madrone- looks like they go directly into the BB shell
>
>>
>> Are the bearings a mild press fit on the shaft?
>
>depends on the crank!
>
>>
>>
>> Does anybody have a link to good pictures of the outborard bearing/ 2
>> piece cranks?
>
>go to a bike shop - you can examine in person.
Good suggestion, but I would still like to see a technical drawing of
one is available.
>
>>
>> I've been away from cylcling for about 3-4 years, and left when the
>> Octa-link was the new set-up.
>>
>> From reading this thread, I assume there was some fatal flaw that made
>> it obsolete.
>
>no, the only "fatal flaw" was the fact that a larger spindle can be made
>lighter for the same or greater stiffness, and with a larger spindle,
>you can't fit the bearings inside the shell.
>
>> Was it, as Jobst said, the reverse torque that killed
>> it?
>
>no, as you might surmise from the fact that octalink has been in daily
>use by millions for over a decade with only a handful of bleatings here
>on r.b.t, that was just jobst hypothesizing without bothering to test or
>examine the interface closely enough. situation normal.
Well, certainly not a decade, but I take your point about them being
used by many and am reassured that they seem to work fine.
I think his technical analysis is correct- that right foot forward
decending could be problematic, but I'd guess few people do that with
much frequency.
>
>>
>> Are replacemnet bottom brackets still available?
>
>of course.
Thanks for the reply
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 10 Aug 2007 21:26:21
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
Bob Quindazzi wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 20:32:05 -0700, jim beam
> <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
>> Bob Quindazzi wrote:
>>> On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:51:21 -0400, Doug Taylor
>>> <dtaylor@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:11:06 -0000, Qui si parla Campagnolo
>>>> <peter@vecchios.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> That's a non sequitur. If you have a new Madone, or a new Madone
>>>>>> frame, you have a new crank, which will be outboard bearing. And,
>>>>>> you are not limited to a particular brand.
>>>>> Why would that be? No frame only sales??
>>>> What part of "new Madone, or a new Madone frame" blew past you? Either
>>>> way, you get anew outboard bearing crank.
>>>>
>>>>>> You install the bearings by hand and the crank with one freaking allen
>>>>>> wrench. Period.
>>>>> Depends on the crank..many(most) use more than one freaking allen
>>>>> wrench.
>>>> Let's see. Mine also has a fixing screw, but it stays in place. Some
>>>> have pinch bolts. My point was no threads, no cups, no tool needed
>>>> for the cups, no labor to install or remove.
>>>>
>>>
>>> How are the bearings retained in the BB shell?
>> they're not /in/ the shell - they're external. the bearing carriers
>> screw into the shell as normal.
>
> I meant the Madrone- looks like they go directly into the BB shell
>>> Are the bearings a mild press fit on the shaft?
>> depends on the crank!
>>
>>>
>>> Does anybody have a link to good pictures of the outborard bearing/ 2
>>> piece cranks?
>> go to a bike shop - you can examine in person.
> Good suggestion, but I would still like to see a technical drawing of
> one is available.
>>> I've been away from cylcling for about 3-4 years, and left when the
>>> Octa-link was the new set-up.
>>>
>>> From reading this thread, I assume there was some fatal flaw that made
>>> it obsolete.
>> no, the only "fatal flaw" was the fact that a larger spindle can be made
>> lighter for the same or greater stiffness, and with a larger spindle,
>> you can't fit the bearings inside the shell.
>
>>> Was it, as Jobst said, the reverse torque that killed
>>> it?
>> no, as you might surmise from the fact that octalink has been in daily
>> use by millions for over a decade with only a handful of bleatings here
>> on r.b.t, that was just jobst hypothesizing without bothering to test or
>> examine the interface closely enough. situation normal.
>
> Well, certainly not a decade, but I take your point about them being
> used by many and am reassured that they seem to work fine.
> I think his technical analysis is correct- that right foot forward
> decending could be problematic, but I'd guess few people do that with
> much frequency.
no - i do that regularly. never had a crank loosen. what jobst
overlooked in his "analysis" is that the root of the splines are
radiused, and thus effectively "wedge" the teeth into position. if that
weren't the case, he'd have a point, but apart from observancy, one of
jobst's weaknesses is not bothering to reconcile theory with practice.
if something is not failing as "theory" predicts, that "theory" is
incomplete.
of course, i also torque to manufacturer spec, but maybe i'm odd like that.
>>> Are replacemnet bottom brackets still available?
>> of course.
>
> Thanks for the reply
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 21:55:50
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:26:21 -0700, jim beam
<spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote:
>but apart from observancy, one of
>jobst's weaknesses is not bothering to reconcile theory with practice.
Remember the (in)famous disc brakes causing wheel ejection threads of
2 years ago? Another case where theory was never reconciled with
reality.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 11 Aug 2007 19:51:09
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
Doug Taylor wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:26:21 -0700, jim beam
> <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
>> but apart from observancy, one of
>> jobst's weaknesses is not bothering to reconcile theory with practice.
>
> Remember the (in)famous disc brakes causing wheel ejection threads of
> 2 years ago? Another case where theory was never reconciled with
> reality.
indeed.
|
| |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 12:04:43
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 24, 7:03 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Jul 24, 7:42 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com>
> wrote:
>
> <snipped>
>
> - on BB bearings -
>
> > FSA bearings are the best
> > in the world
>
> ??they are??
Oppps, 'aren't' the best, is what i meant...
|
| |
Date: 24 Jul 2007 07:22:06
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 24, 6:03 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Jul 24, 7:42 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com>
> wrote:
>
> <snipped>
>
> - on BB bearings -
>
> > FSA bearings are the best
> > in the world
>
> ??they are??
Gee, and to think I just tossed my FSA ISIS BB because the bearings
would barely turn and sounded like I was crushing a box of cornflakes
when they did. FSA also does not support any non-outboard BB.
Sure, the Madone will not take a standard bottom bracket, which these
days means a standard ISIS or Octalink bottom bracket -- which is a
flawed design with too small bearings that are doomed to failure.
IMO, you either go with square drive, quarter-inch bearing BB or you
go with outboard (or the Madone outboard/inboard approach). -- Jay
Beattie.
|
| |
Date: 24 Jul 2007 06:03:24
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 24, 7:42 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com >
wrote:
<snipped >
- on BB bearings -
> FSA bearings are the best
> in the world
??they are??
|
| |
Date: 24 Jul 2007 12:44:32
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 23, 7:21 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:04:48 -0700, "jr...@jrees.net"
>
> <jr...@jrees.net> wrote:
> >I have an FSA Mega-Exo crank and bottom bracket on my bike.
> >The bearings are beginning to sound a bit dodgy on riders, especially
> >after about two hours of riding. I see lots of companies offering
> >replacement bearings, in steel and ceramic for these outboards style
> >bottom brackets.
>
> >However, it looks like a special tool is required to remove and
> >replace the cartridges.
> >Is this tool absolutely necessary? Has anyone pulled the cartridges
> >and replaced them with, for example, the bearings available from
> >Enduro?
>
> You need a spanner to get the cups off, either a Park BBT-9 or one
> from the FSA website:http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=404
>
> Next you have to carefully pry off the bearing covers, which break
> easily. If you do break them, buy up a supply at FSA:http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=398
>
> In order to get the cartridges out of the cups, my tools are low tech:
> a wooden vice (in order not to mar the cups), an old 27.2 mm dia.
> seatpost and a rubber mallet. Once the cups are snug in the vice
> (enough to hold it, but not to deform it), place the seatpost into the
> cup, give it a firm whack with the mallet, and the cartridge will pop
> out (place a waste basket with a towel in it below the vice to catch
> it).
>
> I buy cartridge bearings either on e-bay or direct from a company like
> Boca:http://www.bocabearings.com/main1.aspx?p=product&id=10412&n=*BRK-002RS
>
> The bearings go back into the cups with another whack of the mallet.
>
> All this b.s. is a good reason why the new Trek Madone frame, with it
> "integrated bottom bracket" and the ability to install cartridges by
> hand directly in the frame, without tools, not to mention cups or any
> bb at all, makes a ton of sense.
Yep, as long as youi have a outboard bearing type crank...Lots of DA,
Ultegra, Campag, FSA, Truvativ, etc., non outboard bearing cranks
that cannot be installed.
|
| | |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 08:35:26
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 31, 10:08 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> In article
> <1185910110.033412.81...@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
> Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 31, 11:46 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <1185823850.848090.199...@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
> > > ,
> > > Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 29, 5:25 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > > > > <1185464551.934360.142...@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
> > > > > ,
> > > > > Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > The Madone uses standard bearing cartridges
>
> > > > > The only reason they use a standard cartridge bearing
> > > > > is that the cost of building a non-standard cartridge
> > > > > bearing is prohibitive, or rather more than the early
> > > > > adopters are willing to pay. No credit to Trek there.
>
> > > > Who's looking for credit? I'm just stating a fact: if the bearings on
> > > > the new Madone frame crap out, you just buy replacements from the
> > > > corner bearing store. That is more than you can say for any cartridge
> > > > BB that I know of.
>
> > > Every bottom bracket using a cartridge bearing uses a
> > > standard industrial cartridge bearing available at any
> > > supply house stocking bearings. By comparing this
> > > bottom bracket with other bottom brackets you _are_
> > > trying to credit Trek for this aspect to the design.
>
> > Even if there are standard bearings in cartridge BBs, you can't
> > replace them -- except on some BBs like Race Face or Phil, but even
> > then, you have to send the BB to the factory. On the Madone, you pop
> > the bearings in by hand. Now, I'm not saying that is a good thing if
> > it means that there is a sloppy fit and you ruin the crank spindle or
> > frame cups, but it is handy. I leave it to the engineers to determine
> > whether handy is stupid in this situation. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> You say that replacing a cartridge bearing is a factory
> job but I do not believe you. Further you just skipped
> over my challenge of your assertion "That is more than
> you can say for any cartridge BB that I know of." Do
> you know of any non-standard cartridge bearing in a
> bicycle bottom bracket?
>
> I will take it as ceded that you agree that you were
> trying to credit Trek for using standard cartridge
> bearings in their bottom brackets; when in fact it is
> entirely impractical for them to design a non-standard
> cartridge bearing for that application.
Gawd, I feel like I am in a highschool debating class (a bad one).
Again, I am not stroking Trek for using standard bearings -- or for
anything, although I do like the people I know who work there and have
a lot of respect for the company for a number of reasons (disclaimer).
I was pointing out to the doom and gloomers (Madone as wind chime)
that the bearings were standard and could be replaced. I do think Trek
should be credited for using bearings that are user replaceable. And,
finally, please feel free to change the bearings yourself in your
cartridge BBs -- I have not been able to do that, and I have been
buying cartridge BBs since the 70s. I used to stand around Phil
Wood's shop and watch him or one of his workers change the cartridges
in my first gen BBs. They had to do it for me, being that I did not
have a big hand operated press at home. -- Jay Beattie..
|
| | | |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 11:55:18
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
In article
<1185982526.673859.31130@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com >,
Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
> On Jul 31, 10:08 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <1185910110.033412.81...@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
> > Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jul 31, 11:46 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <1185823850.848090.199...@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
> > > > ,
> > > > Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > On Jul 29, 5:25 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > > > > In article
> > > > > > <1185464551.934360.142...@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
> > > > > > ,
> > > > > > Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > The Madone uses standard bearing cartridges
> >
> > > > > > The only reason they use a standard cartridge bearing
> > > > > > is that the cost of building a non-standard cartridge
> > > > > > bearing is prohibitive, or rather more than the early
> > > > > > adopters are willing to pay. No credit to Trek there.
> >
> > > > > Who's looking for credit? I'm just stating a fact: if the bearings on
> > > > > the new Madone frame crap out, you just buy replacements from the
> > > > > corner bearing store. That is more than you can say for any cartridge
> > > > > BB that I know of.
> >
> > > > Every bottom bracket using a cartridge bearing uses a
> > > > standard industrial cartridge bearing available at any
> > > > supply house stocking bearings. By comparing this
> > > > bottom bracket with other bottom brackets you _are_
> > > > trying to credit Trek for this aspect to the design.
> >
> > > Even if there are standard bearings in cartridge BBs, you can't
> > > replace them -- except on some BBs like Race Face or Phil, but even
> > > then, you have to send the BB to the factory. On the Madone, you pop
> > > the bearings in by hand. Now, I'm not saying that is a good thing if
> > > it means that there is a sloppy fit and you ruin the crank spindle or
> > > frame cups, but it is handy. I leave it to the engineers to determine
> > > whether handy is stupid in this situation. -- Jay Beattie.
> >
> > You say that replacing a cartridge bearing is a factory
> > job but I do not believe you. Further you just skipped
> > over my challenge of your assertion "That is more than
> > you can say for any cartridge BB that I know of." Do
> > you know of any non-standard cartridge bearing in a
> > bicycle bottom bracket?
> >
> > I will take it as ceded that you agree that you were
> > trying to credit Trek for using standard cartridge
> > bearings in their bottom brackets; when in fact it is
> > entirely impractical for them to design a non-standard
> > cartridge bearing for that application.
>
> Gawd, I feel like I am in a highschool debating class (a bad one).
> Again, I am not stroking Trek for using standard bearings -- or for
> anything, although I do like the people I know who work there and have
> a lot of respect for the company for a number of reasons (disclaimer).
Here you say "I am not stroking Trek for using standard
bearings " But you are. Which cartridge bottom brackets
use non-standard cartridge bearings? None. Since all
cartridge bottom brackets use standard cartridge
bearings, saying that Trek does is crediting them where
no credit is due. They and their customers cannnot
afford to buy a non-standard cartridge bearing, so Trek
uses a standard cartridge bearing, the same as
everybody else.
> I was pointing out to the doom and gloomers (Madone as wind chime)
> that the bearings were standard and could be replaced. I do think Trek
> should be credited for using bearings that are user replaceable. And,
> finally, please feel free to change the bearings yourself in your
> cartridge BBs -- I have not been able to do that, and I have been
> buying cartridge BBs since the 70s. I used to stand around Phil
> Wood's shop and watch him or one of his workers change the cartridges
> in my first gen BBs. They had to do it for me, being that I did not
> have a big hand operated press at home.
Replacing interference fit cartridge bearings is not
exclusively a factory job. Several guys here do it at
home with home tools.
Also a couple of guys who are skilled
mechanics/engineers have commented that cartridge
bearings that are not an interference fit are a bad
idea, since the portion of the interface that should be
an interference fit is free to move and wear away
material. What steps does Trek take to mitigate this
problem?
--
Michael Press
|
| | |
Date: 31 Jul 2007 13:17:19
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 31, 2:50 pm, Lou Holtman <lholremovet...@planet.nl > wrote:
> Jay Beattie wrote:
>
> > Even if there are standard bearings in cartridge BBs, you can't
> > replace them -- except on some BBs like Race Face or Phil, but even
> > then, you have to send the BB to the factory. On the Madone, you pop
> > the bearings in by hand. Now, I'm not saying that is a good thing if
> > it means that there is a sloppy fit and you ruin the crank spindle or
> > frame cups, but it is handy. I leave it to the engineers to determine
> > whether handy is stupid in this situation.
>
> Lose fit on the axle and a lose fit in the BB shell. Mmmm... as an
> engineer I'm not comfortable with that.
>
It was done for ease of assembly on a production line; other
considerations are secondary.
And, I doubt that ease of BB service 'in the field' was even on the
radar screen during the design process. That aspect is a creation of
the sales/marketing spin meisters, IMO.
|
| | |
Date: 26 Jul 2007 07:51:40
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Jul 26, 8:29 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 16:41:55 -0700, Jay Beattie
>
> <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> >I don't think it is so dire for two reasons: (1) the Madone relies on
> >the dominant technology -- the two piece crank, and (2) the frame uses
> >common sized cartridge bearings. With all the other novelties you
> >mention, if it breaks, your're screwed unless the manufacture has a
> >replacement sitting around in a store room or a museum. If the
> >bearings crap out on the Trek, you go to your local bearing shop and
> >order up some replacements. Probably cheaper than buying replacements
> >for standard outboard cups. And more importantly, you don't land on
> >your face if the bearings break, like with the Viscount fork.
>
> >Trek has a lifetime warranty on its frame and it will be around in to
> >the foreseeable future. If I were going to take a chance, it would be
> >on a Trek. But the Madone does not appear to be all that chancy since
> >it uses pretty common stuff. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> Thank you. Someone else who knows how to think.
>
> Anybody who wrenches their own equipment knows that the Trek
> integrated bb frame design makes a ton of sense. I'm not going out on
> any limb extolling the virtues of a design that industry tech guru
> Lennard Zinn thinks is revolutionary.
"industry tech guru Lennard Zinn"? LOL!!! I guess he is, to a bicycle
sheeple. IMO, try "bike biz shill Lennard Zinn", it's much more
accurate.
>
> In 3 years every manufacturer of carbon frames will produce at least
> one model with the same design, if not the majority. It's simple
> common sense.
>From a manufacturer's point of view, you bet it is!! Cheaper to make,
sells for more - they love it!
|
| | | |
Date: 26 Jul 2007 11:45:29
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
|
On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 07:51:40 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
>"industry tech guru Lennard Zinn"? LOL!!! I guess he is, to a bicycle
>sheeple. IMO, try "bike biz shill Lennard Zinn", it's much more
>accurate.
We'll see what happens 2-3 years down the road.
Will integrated bb's become the norm?
Will "bike biz shill" Lennard Zinn and the "naive" people who agree
with him prove correct?
Or the in-bred wool jersey wearing dipshit retrogrouch from the
Ozarks? Whose website boasts: 100% Service and 0% "Attitude".
Talk about irony.
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Date: 24 Jul 2007 09:27:09
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
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On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:44:32 -0000, Qui si parla Campagnolo
<peter@vecchios.com > wrote:
>> All this b.s. is a good reason why the new Trek Madone frame, with it
>> "integrated bottom bracket" and the ability to install cartridges by
>> hand directly in the frame, without tools, not to mention cups or any
>> bb at all, makes a ton of sense.
>
>Yep, as long as youi have a outboard bearing type crank...Lots of DA,
>Ultegra, Campag, FSA, Truvativ, etc., non outboard bearing cranks
>that cannot be installed.
That's a non sequitur. If you have a new Madone, or a new Madone
frame, you have a new crank, which will be outboard bearing. And,
you are not limited to a particular brand.
As to servicing outboard bearing bbs: I posted my low tech version
of removing and installing bearing cartridges from and into the cups.
Enduro sells tools which work better than my feeble jury rigging:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2007/reviews/enduro_bearing_tool
For a mere $112 I can own this tool:
http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/p/TL8901
Explain to me again why Trek's innovation of eliminating the cups -
indeed, the bottom bracket - the multiple tools, the hassle, the
expense, the weight for god's sake - is a bad idea?
You install the bearings by hand and the crank with one freaking allen
wrench. Period.
Why would I want any frame which has threads and requires a bottom
bracket, a crankset, and a bunch of tools? Not to mention having to
get the threads faced if I want an outboard bearing crank.
Maybe as a bike shop owner you have a vested interest in preventing us
amateurs from wrenching our own bikes?
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Date: 24 Jul 2007 12:42:32
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
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On Jul 23, 3:04 pm, "jr...@jrees.net" <jr...@jrees.net > wrote:
> I have an FSA Mega-Exo crank and bottom bracket on my bike.
> The bearings are beginning to sound a bit dodgy on riders, especially
> after about two hours of riding. I see lots of companies offering
> replacement bearings, in steel and ceramic for these outboards style
> bottom brackets.
>
> However, it looks like a special tool is required to remove and
> replace the cartridges.
> Is this tool absolutely necessary? Has anyone pulled the cartridges
> and replaced them with, for example, the bearings available from
> Enduro?
>
> I'm pretty comfortable with working on bikes. I used to have the Dura
> Ace bottom bracket and thought nothing of pulling it and tearing it
> down for an overhaul.
>
> John Rees
Phil Wood makes a toolkit and nice bearings..I don't know of another
tool kit but I'm sure it isn't that tough. FSA bearings are the best
in the world AND don't waste your $ on ceramic..not worth the $
either, IMO.
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Date: 23 Jul 2007 18:34:59
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
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On Jul 23, 8:21 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:04:48 -0700, "jr...@jrees.net"
>
> <jr...@jrees.net> wrote:
> >I have an FSA Mega-Exo crank and bottom bracket on my bike.
> >The bearings are beginning to sound a bit dodgy on riders, especially
> >after about two hours of riding. I see lots of companies offering
> >replacement bearings, in steel and ceramic for these outboards style
> >bottom brackets.
>
> >However, it looks like a special tool is required to remove and
> >replace the cartridges.
> >Is this tool absolutely necessary? Has anyone pulled the cartridges
> >and replaced them with, for example, the bearings available from
> >Enduro?
>
> You need a spanner to get the cups off, either a Park BBT-9 or one
> from the FSA website:http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=404
>
> Next you have to carefully pry off the bearing covers, which break
> easily. If you do break them, buy up a supply at FSA:http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=398
>
> In order to get the cartridges out of the cups, my tools are low tech:
> a wooden vice (in order not to mar the cups), an old 27.2 mm dia.
> seatpost and a rubber mallet. Once the cups are snug in the vice
> (enough to hold it, but not to deform it), place the seatpost into the
> cup, give it a firm whack with the mallet, and the cartridge will pop
> out (place a waste basket with a towel in it below the vice to catch
> it).
>
> I buy cartridge bearings either on e-bay or direct from a company like
> Boca:http://www.bocabearings.com/main1.aspx?p=product&id=10412&n=*BRK-002RS
>
> The bearings go back into the cups with another whack of the mallet.
>
> All this b.s. is a good reason why the new Trek Madone frame, with it
> "integrated bottom bracket" and the ability to install cartridges by
> hand directly in the frame, without tools, not to mention cups or any
> bb at all, makes a ton of sense.
Yep, let's re-design BB shells to compensate for piss poor BB design
and worse- than-piss poor bearings. Fits right in with other modern
design trends.
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Date: 23 Jul 2007 21:21:00
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets
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On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:04:48 -0700, "jrees@jrees.net"
<jrees@jrees.net > wrote:
>I have an FSA Mega-Exo crank and bottom bracket on my bike.
>The bearings are beginning to sound a bit dodgy on riders, especially
>after about two hours of riding. I see lots of companies offering
>replacement bearings, in steel and ceramic for these outboards style
>bottom brackets.
>
>However, it looks like a special tool is required to remove and
>replace the cartridges.
>Is this tool absolutely necessary? Has anyone pulled the cartridges
>and replaced them with, for example, the bearings available from
>Enduro?
You need a spanner to get the cups off, either a Park BBT-9 or one
from the FSA website:
http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=404
Next you have to carefully pry off the bearing covers, which break
easily. If you do break them, buy up a supply at FSA:
http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=398
In order to get the cartridges out of the cups, my tools are low tech:
a wooden vice (in order not to mar the cups), an old 27.2 mm dia.
seatpost and a rubber mallet. Once the cups are snug in the vice
(enough to hold it, but not to deform it), place the seatpost into the
cup, give it a firm whack with the mallet, and the cartridge will pop
out (place a waste basket with a towel in it below the vice to catch
it).
I buy cartridge bearings either on e-bay or direct from a company like
Boca:
http://www.bocabearings.com/main1.aspx?p=product&id=10412&n=*BRK-002RS
The bearings go back into the cups with another whack of the mallet.
All this b.s. is a good reason why the new Trek Madone frame, with it
"integrated bottom bracket" and the ability to install cartridges by
hand directly in the frame, without tools, not to mention cups or any
bb at all, makes a ton of sense.
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