Robust internal gear hubs

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Date: 03 Aug 2007 17:22:44
From: Anthony DeLorenzo
Subject: Robust internal gear hubs

Hi All,

I'm really keen to use an internally-geared hub on a touring bike I am
building up. I like (need?) to have a strong, non-dished rear wheel
and I also prefer to not fuss with derailleurs. This will be my only
multi-geared bike, my other rides are a singlespeed MTB and a fixie
commuter.

I have been researching various hub models on the internet and I am
getting the sense that, other than Rohloff, nothing on the market can
really handle anything other than light duty typical of comfort or
casual bikes.

To put this into perspective, I am 6'6", 250+ lbs and, although I ride
smoothly, can apply a lot of power to the pedals when I want to. Throw
on some cargo, and my habit of dashing off down the odd fire road or
stretch of singletrack, and I wonder if one of these hubs could handle
it.

At 4-5 times the cost I just can't afford a Rohloff. Are any of the
current offerings from S-A, Shimano or SRAM suitable for my needs, or
should I stick to a derailleur and keep saving for a Rohloff in the
future?

Regards,
Anthony

Date: 08 Aug 2007 16:14:58
From: Leland Mayne
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

Anthony DeLorenzo wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I'm really keen to use an internally-geared hub on a touring bike I am
> building up. I like (need?) to have a strong, non-dished rear wheel
> and I also prefer to not fuss with derailleurs. This will be my only
> multi-geared bike, my other rides are a singlespeed MTB and a fixie
> commuter.
>
> I have been researching various hub models on the internet and I am
> getting the sense that, other than Rohloff, nothing on the market can
> really handle anything other than light duty typical of comfort or
> casual bikes.
>
> To put this into perspective, I am 6'6", 250+ lbs and, although I ride
> smoothly, can apply a lot of power to the pedals when I want to. Throw
> on some cargo, and my habit of dashing off down the odd fire road or
> stretch of singletrack, and I wonder if one of these hubs could handle
> it.
>
> At 4-5 times the cost I just can't afford a Rohloff. Are any of the
> current offerings from S-A, Shimano or SRAM suitable for my needs, or
> should I stick to a derailleur and keep saving for a Rohloff in the
> future?
>
> Regards,
> Anthony
>

I recently killed an older model Sachs Super 7 on my commuter. After ~10
years, ~25,000 miles of all weather urban commuting the #2 sun gear
broke in two & internal parts are not available, at least not in the US.
That gear is active in 2nd and 6th gear & especially in 2nd takes a lot
of force. My habit of starting at lights etc. in 2nd probably killed it.
The failure was not sudden but 2nd gear felt rough & shifting was
unreliable. Before that the only problem occurred when the ball cage for
the right inner bearing broke & a piece jammed one of the springs
preventing shifting to some gears. As I'm too cheep to buy a Rohloff & I
already had a shifter for the Sachs I replaced it with a new SRAM S7.

--
Leland Mayne, President
Neighborhood Bike Works
Philadelphia, PA
http://neighborhoodbikeworks.org

Date: 05 Aug 2007 22:50:46
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

On Aug 5, 2:33 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> >> Per landotter:
> >>> What's the
> >>> name of the guy (German?) who's got some sort of distance record and
> >>> uses an AW?
> > "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
> >>http://www.bikechina.com/ct-heinzstucke1z.html?
> landotter wrote:
> > Ja, ja!
> > Wonder why he was ungooglable to me?
>
> Alta Vista returns several good results from "Heinz Stucke Bicycle"
> including the above link in first position
>
Yeah, but "long distance german bike dude sturmey archer" did jack
squat. ;-) He rides a Sachs hub, FWIW.

Date: 05 Aug 2007 20:35:20
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

PeteCresswell wrote:
>
> One thing about Rohloff hubs (and other internal gear hubs?) that
> nobody's pointed out yet: constant differences between gears.

Other gearhubs have variable, sometimes wildly variable, steps between
gears.

> On my Rohloffs, it's something like 13.5% between each gear.
>
> This is ok with me for the kind of riding I do... but I can see
> that it wouldn't be ok with a stronger rider who would want
> closer spacing in the higher gears.

It is the opposite of strength that demands tiny steps between gears.
It means someone is pushing so hard that they can't jump to the next
step unless the next step is small.

Being comfortable with large steps between gears does not mean you are
a stronger or a weaker rider, it just means you are riding within your
ability rather than on the ragged fringe of it.

Chalo

Date: 05 Aug 2007 17:16:45
From: (PeteCresswell)
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

Per Chalo:
>It is the opposite of strength that demands tiny steps between gears.
>It means someone is pushing so hard that they can't jump to the next
>step unless the next step is small.
>
>Being comfortable with large steps between gears does not mean you are
>a stronger or a weaker rider, it just means you are riding within your
>ability rather than on the ragged fringe of it.

That's pretty much what was in my own mind - but I picture a
stronger rider as more often riding towards the edge of their
envelope, and hence having need of closer gears at that end.
--
PeteCresswell

Date: 08 Aug 2007 19:23:25
From: Andrew Price
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 17:16:45 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid >
wrote:

>>Being comfortable with large steps between gears does not mean you are
>>a stronger or a weaker rider, it just means you are riding within your
>>ability rather than on the ragged fringe of it.
>
>That's pretty much what was in my own mind - but I picture a
>stronger rider as more often riding towards the edge of their
>envelope, and hence having need of closer gears at that end.

I agree - those are also the riders who could make effective use of
ten speed, rather than nine speed dérailleur gears. It just allows a
somewhat finer trimming.

Date: 05 Aug 2007 13:55:59
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

Chalo wrote:
> PeteCresswell wrote:
>> One thing about Rohloff hubs (and other internal gear hubs?) that
>> nobody's pointed out yet: constant differences between gears.
>
> Other gearhubs have variable, sometimes wildly variable, steps between
> gears.
>
>> On my Rohloffs, it's something like 13.5% between each gear.
>>
>> This is ok with me for the kind of riding I do... but I can see
>> that it wouldn't be ok with a stronger rider who would want
>> closer spacing in the higher gears.
>
> It is the opposite of strength that demands tiny steps between gears.
> It means someone is pushing so hard that they can't jump to the next
> step unless the next step is small.
>
> Being comfortable with large steps between gears does not mean you are
> a stronger or a weaker rider, it just means you are riding within your
> ability rather than on the ragged fringe of it.
>
> Chalo
>

well said.

Date: 05 Aug 2007 13:25:23
From: Hank Wirtz
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

On Aug 5, 6:29 am, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid > wrote:
> Per landotter:
>
> >What's the
> >name of the guy (German?) who's got some sort of distance record and
> >uses an AW?
>
> http://www.bikechina.com/ct-heinzstucke1z.html ?
> --
> PeteCresswell

Dual handlebars? That must be where Sheldon got the idea for his
Karate Monkey!

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/surly-rohloff/index.html

And it's even on-topic, as it has a Rohloff!

Date: 05 Aug 2007 14:35:20
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

On Aug 5, 8:29 am, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid > wrote:
> Per landotter:
>
> >What's the
> >name of the guy (German?) who's got some sort of distance record and
> >uses an AW?
>
> http://www.bikechina.com/ct-heinzstucke1z.html ?
> --

Ja, ja!

Wonder why he was ungooglable to me?

Date: 05 Aug 2007 14:33:37
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

>> Per landotter:
>>> What's the
>>> name of the guy (German?) who's got some sort of distance record and
>>> uses an AW?

> "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
>> http://www.bikechina.com/ct-heinzstucke1z.html ?

landotter wrote:
> Ja, ja!
> Wonder why he was ungooglable to me?

Alta Vista returns several good results from "Heinz Stucke Bicycle"
including the above link in first position

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 04 Aug 2007 23:13:26
From:
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

On Aug 3, 9:40 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> landotter who? wrote:
> > On Aug 3, 12:22 pm, Anthony DeLorenzo <anthony.delore...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> Hi All,
>
> >> I'm really keen to use an internally-geared hub on a touring bike I am
> >> building up. I like (need?) to have a strong, non-dished rear wheel
> >> and I also prefer to not fuss with derailleurs. This will be my only
> >> multi-geared bike, my other rides are a singlespeed MTB and a fixie
> >> commuter.
>
> > How 'bout a Sturmey Archer AW? Durable, classic, cheap. Just make sure
> > the cable tension is perfect so you don't slip out of gear.
>
> Trolling for Jobst?
> <http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/sturmey-archer.html>
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

The new S/A hubs built by SunRace have been redesigned to eliminate
the mechanical issue that caused the slipping. I have one (with
coaster brake) on an old CCM tandem and it works as it should.

That said, I think I'd want more than 3 gears for loaded touring...
(BTW, S/A has all sorts of cool internal gear hub and drum brake
combinations at their website.)

I have a Nexus 7 on my winter bike, and while many tout the behind-the-
stay cable/hub connection as a benefit, I find it a real pain once the
bike gets covered in slush and gunk. Having used both S/A and Shimano
3-speed hubs the external connection is much easier to put back
together in the dark, and if I had the cash I'd buy a new SRAM 7-speed
to replace the Nexus just for that reason.

Mark - who would want more than 7 gears for loaded winter
touring... :D

Date: 04 Aug 2007 05:01:20
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

Anthony DeLorenzo wrote:
>
> > Chalo wrote:
> >
> > If you can make peace with a single speed for all other uses besides
> > touring, then I think you will probably be happy with a 7- or 8-speed
> > gearhub for touring.
>
> Thank you for the detailed reply, it's great to have first-hand
> experience to draw on. You've encouraged me to take the plunge and try
> one of these out.

There is something I forgot to mention-- the SRAM hub allows you to
have an integrated drum brake or coaster brake at essentially no
weight penalty for either one.

A coaster brake is cool, but it requires a major mental adjustment for
most cyclists. It may be easier for a seasoned fixie rider to get
used to. My wife's 5-speed city bike has one, and she likes it.

The integrated drum brake in the SRAM S7 is a great option. It seems
depressingly feeble at first, but as it breaks in over a surprisingly
long period, it keeps getting better. My higher-mileage drums are as
good as caliper brakes, but my newer ones seem like emergency backup
brakes more than anything to rely on. Anyway, they last practically
forever with no maintenance, and they improve instead of deteriorating
with use. The biggest drawback I can think of for drums is that they
can be finicky about how much cable pull is in the lever you use. Too
little, and they'll be mushy and ineffectual. Too much, and they'll
require a Herculean grip to get working. I'd strongly consider using
a SRAM drum instead of a rear rim brake, at least if you can deal with
having a weak rear brake for the first several hundred miles.

Shimano gearhubs have a "roller brake" option-- it's sort of an
internal-expanding band brake that feels a lot stronger initially than
a conventional drum, but doesn't really break in like a drum and
requires occasional greasing. Being a separate component, it is easy
to replace-- and as a bonus, it doesn't even cost much. On the other
hand, they aren't as carefree as SRAM drums and they weigh quite a bit
more than rim brakes (which matters because you can remove them).

Chalo

Date: 04 Aug 2007 16:17:51
From: John Henderson
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

Chalo wrote:

> There is something I forgot to mention-- the SRAM hub allows
> you to have an integrated drum brake or coaster brake at
> essentially no weight penalty for either one.
>
> A coaster brake is cool, but it requires a major mental
> adjustment for most cyclists. It may be easier for a seasoned
> fixie rider to get used to. My wife's 5-speed city bike has
> one, and she likes it.
>
> The integrated drum brake in the SRAM S7 is a great option.
> It seems depressingly feeble at first, but as it breaks in
> over a surprisingly long period, it keeps getting better. My
> higher-mileage drums are as good as caliper brakes, but my
> newer ones seem like emergency backup brakes more than
> anything to rely on. Anyway, they last practically forever
> with no maintenance, and they improve instead of deteriorating
> with use. The biggest drawback I can think of for drums is
> that they can be finicky about how much cable pull is in the
> lever you use. Too little, and they'll be mushy and
> ineffectual. Too much, and they'll require a Herculean grip
> to get working. I'd strongly consider using a SRAM drum
> instead of a rear rim brake, at least if you can deal with
> having a weak rear brake for the first several hundred miles.
>
> Shimano gearhubs have a "roller brake" option-- it's sort of
> an internal-expanding band brake that feels a lot stronger
> initially than a conventional drum, but doesn't really break
> in like a drum and requires occasional greasing. Being a
> separate component, it is easy to replace-- and as a bonus, it
> doesn't even cost much. On the other hand, they aren't as
> carefree as SRAM drums and they weigh quite a bit more than
> rim brakes (which matters because you can remove them).

I'll second the recommendation for the SRAM drum brake. I've
also used a Shimano internal-gear hub with roller brake. One
major difference is that my Shimano brake suffered from severe
brake fade on long steep descents, becoming almost completely
ineffective until allowed to cool. The SRAM unit doesn't
suffer from this problem.

John

Date: 04 Aug 2007 02:18:21
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

On Aug 3, 8:40 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> landotter who? wrote:
> > On Aug 3, 12:22 pm, Anthony DeLorenzo <anthony.delore...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> Hi All,
>
> >> I'm really keen to use an internally-geared hub on a touring bike I am
> >> building up. I like (need?) to have a strong, non-dished rear wheel
> >> and I also prefer to not fuss with derailleurs. This will be my only
> >> multi-geared bike, my other rides are a singlespeed MTB and a fixie
> >> commuter.
>
> > How 'bout a Sturmey Archer AW? Durable, classic, cheap. Just make sure
> > the cable tension is perfect so you don't slip out of gear.
>
> Trolling for Jobst?
> <http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/sturmey-archer.html>

Heh, no actually. If you're already used to mashing a single
everywhere, a S/A AW is great for touring, unless your terrain is
alpine. I'd just make sure to carry a spare shifter cable. What's the
name of the guy (German?) who's got some sort of distance record and
uses an AW? For a hundred bucks, it's affordable, and the more
adventurous can buy used.

Personally, though I love my S/A--I'd stick to the classic triple with
8spd rear and bar ends. Deore derailleur in back, whatever in the
front. None too fussy.

Date: 05 Aug 2007 09:29:21
From: (PeteCresswell)
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

Per landotter:
>What's the
>name of the guy (German?) who's got some sort of distance record and
>uses an AW?

http://www.bikechina.com/ct-heinzstucke1z.html ?
--
PeteCresswell

Date: 03 Aug 2007 18:47:12
From: Hank Wirtz
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

On Aug 3, 10:22 am, Anthony DeLorenzo <anthony.delore...@gmail.com >
wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I'm really keen to use an internally-geared hub on a touring bike I am
> building up. I like (need?) to have a strong, non-dished rear wheel
> and I also prefer to not fuss with derailleurs. This will be my only
> multi-geared bike, my other rides are a singlespeed MTB and a fixie
> commuter.
>
> I have been researching various hub models on the internet and I am
> getting the sense that, other than Rohloff, nothing on the market can
> really handle anything other than light duty typical of comfort or
> casual bikes.
>
> To put this into perspective, I am 6'6", 250+ lbs and, although I ride
> smoothly, can apply a lot of power to the pedals when I want to. Throw
> on some cargo, and my habit of dashing off down the odd fire road or
> stretch of singletrack, and I wonder if one of these hubs could handle
> it.
>
> At 4-5 times the cost I just can't afford a Rohloff. Are any of the
> current offerings from S-A, Shimano or SRAM suitable for my needs, or
> should I stick to a derailleur and keep saving for a Rohloff in the
> future?
>
> Regards,
> Anthony

I'm the happy owner of a Nexus8 that I used to convert my first
mountain bike (a 1985 Peugeot Orient Express, purchased when I was in
the 7th grade) to a cruiser, with North Road bars, a sprung Brooks
saddle, cork grips and a Wald basket up front. I weigh 230, but
usually ride with a backpack with work clothes and a 2L camelbak. I've
got it geared 42-19 for something like a 35-85" range. I've got a few
steep climbs each way on my commute, and my only complaint is its
weight. When stringing up the wheel, that is. My arm got tired holding
the thing up.

For your purposes, a Nexus8 will work if you don't mind spinning out
your big gear on downhills pretty early, or if you don't need a low-
low gear. For a wider gear range, then either get a Rohloff, or use a
double crank, two masterlinks and a spare bit of chain. The latter
option is cheaper, but obviously, you have to stop and get your hands
dirty to switch ranges, and chainline gets trickier.

Date: 03 Aug 2007 21:35:03
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

Anthony DeLorenzo wrote:

> I have been researching various hub models on the internet and I am
> getting the sense that, other than Rohloff, nothing on the market can
> really handle anything other than light duty typical of comfort or
> casual bikes.
>
> To put this into perspective, I am 6'6", 250+ lbs and, although I ride
> smoothly, can apply a lot of power to the pedals when I want to. Throw
> on some cargo, and my habit of dashing off down the odd fire road or
> stretch of singletrack, and I wonder if one of these hubs could handle
> it.
>
> At 4-5 times the cost I just can't afford a Rohloff. Are any of the
> current offerings from S-A, Shimano or SRAM suitable for my needs, or
> should I stick to a derailleur and keep saving for a Rohloff in the
> future?

As Chalo mentioned later in the thread, the big problem with some of
these is the anti-rotation system. I had a 7-speed Nexus on a tandem
that was used very casually, and my wife and I would regularly exert
enough force to unseat it, which screwed up all the gears. I then put
the hub on my rain commuter, and had the same problem.

The Rholoff has a huge boom to handle the rotation (internal hubs tend
to rotate backwards when force is applied in low gears). That is one
thing to be sure to have. I know it is a lot of money, but anything
else will be a huge compromise, in my experience. Or, you could go with
derailleurs. There is a reason they are still dominant.

--

David L. Johnson

A mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems.
-- Paul Erdos

Date: 04 Aug 2007 07:32:30
From: Dorfus Dippintush
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

Date: 03 Aug 2007 20:39:37
From: (PeteCresswell)
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

Per Dorfus Dippintush:
>There's some pictures of a frame modified for a Rohloff hub here.
>
>http://www.hyperactive.oz.nf/Rohloff/Rohloff.htm

Just for those that aren't familiar with Rohloff installs:
there's nothing that actually *needs* tb Rohloff-specific on your
bike. The pix above show a frame where chain length adjustment
has been enabled via new dropouts... but it's not something
actually *required* to run a Rohloff hub - which it seems to me
like can be mounted on just about any bike. I've done them on
hard tails, and several different FS's with no modifications at
all.
--
PeteCresswell

Date: 03 Aug 2007 23:33:48
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

Anthony DeLorenzo wrote:
>
> In terms of gearing I'll likely try something like a 36x20 chainring
> and cog, which would put me in the range of 25 - 80 gear inches
> depending on the hub I use (Shimano or SRAM).

That's a good range for touring and load carrying. Since I have
gotten good results from a relatively similar 40-21 gear driven by a
190mm crank, and I weigh 100 lbs. more than you do, I think you are
unlikely to have problems related to excess gearbox torque.

> Oddly enough, the S-A 8-
> speed hub has direct drive in the lowest gear, which seems to rule it
> out unless I want to use a granny ring up front (I don't).

I know the Sturmey Archer 8 is an all-new design, but the S-A Sprinter
7 was widely regarded as the weakest of the 7-speed hubs.

Chalo

Date: 03 Aug 2007 16:05:11
From: Tom Ace
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

On Aug 3, 2:09 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com > wrote:

> The SRAM P5 Cargo hub is the only gearhub that is explicitly rated for
> the kind of load you are discussing.

But the Rohloff is sold for tandem use, which is just as severe.
IIRC, the only differences between a tandem Speedhub and a plain
one are longer cables and flanges drilled for heavier gauge spokes.

> The Rohloff Speedhub is a marvelous piece of equipment, but it's not
> without its idiosyncrasies. Mine gives occasional false neutrals in
> its problematic 8th gear-7th gear shift. None of my other gearhubs
> have done that.

Interesting. I have never gotten what I'd call a false neutral
from mine (I mean where it stays in neutral like a Sturmey-Archer
can between 2 and 3). 7- >8 can be a rough shift, sometimes with
a small jump (maybe 10 degrees of crank rotation) before catching,
but that isn't the kind of neutral that can hurt you.

Tom Ace

Date: 03 Aug 2007 22:13:27
From: Anthony DeLorenzo
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

On Aug 3, 2:09 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com > wrote:

> If you can make peace with a single speed for all other uses besides
> touring, then I think you will probably be happy with a 7- or 8-speed
> gearhub for touring. Exercise restraint in how tall you make your top
> gear; there's little reason to go much taller than what you have on
> your fixie. That will leave you plenty of low gears for coping with
> heavy loads and unfavorable conditions.

Hi Chalo,

Thank you for the detailed reply, it's great to have first-hand
experience to draw on. You've encouraged me to take the plunge and try
one of these out. The advice about dropouts and spare anti-rotation
washers is well-noted, I'll be sure to check my frame and buy spare
washers.

In terms of gearing I'll likely try something like a 36x20 chainring
and cog, which would put me in the range of 25 - 80 gear inches
depending on the hub I use (Shimano or SRAM). Oddly enough, the S-A 8-
speed hub has direct drive in the lowest gear, which seems to rule it
out unless I want to use a granny ring up front (I don't).

Regards,
Anthony

Date: 04 Aug 2007 12:58:46
From: John Henderson
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

Anthony DeLorenzo wrote:

> Thank you for the detailed reply, it's great to have
> first-hand experience to draw on. You've encouraged me to take
> the plunge and try one of these out. The advice about dropouts
> and spare anti-rotation washers is well-noted, I'll be sure to
> check my frame and buy spare washers.
>
> In terms of gearing I'll likely try something like a 36x20
> chainring and cog, which would put me in the range of 25 - 80
> gear inches depending on the hub I use (Shimano or SRAM).
> Oddly enough, the S-A 8- speed hub has direct drive in the
> lowest gear, which seems to rule it out unless I want to use a
> granny ring up front (I don't).

I'm a heavy rider (somewhere between yourself and Chalo), and
have put 23,000 trouble-free kilometres onto a SRAM Spectro S7
so far. Just gear cables and sprockets have been replaced.

I'm running a 36T chainwheel and 17T rear sprocket with 26"
wheels. This gives me a gear inch range from 31.4 to 95.8.

Although I sometimes load the rear panniers up, you should note
that the SRAM documentation says "The Spectro S7 hubs are not
suitable for tandems, trademenâ€™s delivery bicycles and
similar."

John

Date: 03 Aug 2007 21:37:34
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

Anthony DeLorenzo wrote:

> In terms of gearing I'll likely try something like a 36x20 chainring
> and cog, which would put me in the range of 25 - 80 gear inches
> depending on the hub I use (Shimano or SRAM).

This will cause problems. Usually these hubs have minimum external gear
ratios well above this. You are putting much more torque on that hub
with that little gear than it was designed for.

> Oddly enough, the S-A 8-
> speed hub has direct drive in the lowest gear, which seems to rule it
> out unless I want to use a granny ring up front (I don't).

That might be to eliminate the counter-rotation problem. If so, it is a
good idea.

--

David L. Johnson

A mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems.
-- Paul Erdos

Date: 03 Aug 2007 21:12:40
From: Anthony DeLorenzo
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

On Aug 3, 12:16 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote:

> How 'bout a Sturmey Archer AW? Durable, classic, cheap. Just make sure
> the cable tension is perfect so you don't slip out of gear.

I'm looking more at like a 7 or 8-speed hub, I would prefer a wider
range of gears for road touring.

My concern is that will any non-Rohloff internal gear hub actually be
able to handle the strain I can put on one, in terms of rider weight
and torque.

Date: 03 Aug 2007 21:09:38
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

Anthony DeLorenzo wrote:
>
> I'm really keen to use an internally-geared hub on a touring bike I am
> building up. I like (need?) to have a strong, non-dished rear wheel
> and I also prefer to not fuss with derailleurs. This will be my only
> multi-geared bike, my other rides are a singlespeed MTB and a fixie
> commuter.
>
> I have been researching various hub models on the internet and I am
> getting the sense that, other than Rohloff, nothing on the market can
> really handle anything other than light duty typical of comfort or
> casual bikes.
>
> To put this into perspective, I am 6'6", 250+ lbs and, although I ride
> smoothly, can apply a lot of power to the pedals when I want to. Throw
> on some cargo, and my habit of dashing off down the odd fire road or
> stretch of singletrack, and I wonder if one of these hubs could handle
> it.
>
> At 4-5 times the cost I just can't afford a Rohloff. Are any of the
> current offerings from S-A, Shimano or SRAM suitable for my needs, or
> should I stick to a derailleur and keep saving for a Rohloff in the

I am 6'8" tall and weigh close to 350 pounds at this time. I have
used several gearhubs on my bikes at body weights of 330 to over 400
pounds, and I have been an active cyclist all that time. Some of
these bikes have been regular transportation, and some of them have
been utility rides for carrying things.

The gearhubs now in my stable include SRAM Spectro 7, Shimano Nexus 7,
and a Rohloff Speedhub. My wife's bikes feature Sachs Pentasport 5
and a Rohloff Speedhub. Bikes that I spent some time with before
passing on to others used Sachs 7 and Shimano 4 gearhubs. Not one of
these gearhubs has broken outright, but they have not been entirely
without problems.

Because I had been warned by a shop owner that some of his customers'
Nexus 7 hubs developed problems related to high torque loads, I used
my Nexus 7 hubs only in 20" wheels, whose reduced diameter
proportionally diminishes gearbox loads. They feel draggier to me
than my other gearhubs, but they have been reliable. I understand
that Nexus 8 hubs have improved efficiency compared to Nexus 7 hubs.
One very nice feature of Nexus hubs is that all the shifting apparatus
is tucked inside the chainstays and dropouts, out of harm's way.

The Sachs and Sram 7-speed hubs in my bikes seem more rugged and freer-
running than the Shimano hubs. They have a wider overall gear range,
too-- with some of the larger steps between gears bordering on too big
for my taste. I once tore out an anti-rotation washer on one of these
hubs, which is the biggest mechanical issue I've had to date with any
gearhub. (When the axle spins, the hub bearings go out of
adjustment.) In that case, I had only one anti-spin washer in place,
because the thick aluminum dropouts of my bike didn't leave me room to
put one on each side (my usual arrangement). Since then, whenever I
have room for a washer on only one end of the axle, I have used a
special washer I machined from steel bar stock.

The SRAM 7 hub that I still have in service is in a 29" MTB wheel.
That's a worst case scenario for hub torque. Although I don't take my
29er off-road, I don't spare it any of the usual hardships of city
riding. I use 40-21 primary gearing, for a range of 32 to 97 gear
inches. So far, it has been boringly reliable in this application.

Note that the parts kit that comes with the SRAM Spectro 7 hub
contains only one anti-spin washer. I have heard that this serves the
role of a structural fuse to protect the gearbox from potential
overloads. I will still use two washers whenever I can. Spare anti-
spin washers and spare M10.5 axle nuts are cheap and readily
available; it's a good idea to have some extras set aside. (The nuts
strip out easily because of the interrupted thread on the flatted
axle.)

The SRAM P5 Cargo hub is the only gearhub that is explicitly rated for
the kind of load you are discussing. It has a slightly narrower
overall gear range than the regular P5 hub-- close to 2.5:1. I have
not used one, though, so I can't comment on it from experience.

The Rohloff Speedhub is a marvelous piece of equipment, but it's not
without its idiosyncrasies. Mine gives occasional false neutrals in
its problematic 8th gear-7th gear shift. None of my other gearhubs
have done that.

If you can make peace with a single speed for all other uses besides
touring, then I think you will probably be happy with a 7- or 8-speed
gearhub for touring. Exercise restraint in how tall you make your top
gear; there's little reason to go much taller than what you have on
your fixie. That will leave you plenty of low gears for coping with
heavy loads and unfavorable conditions.

A friend of mine who is half my size recently broke the axle on his
Sachs 3x7 hub. He was using it in a single speed MTB frame that had
been amateurishly widened to accept the new hub, and the misaligned
dropouts appear to have been the critical factor in the failure of his
hub. Check your dropout alignment before you put your new bike in
service, to avoid unnecessary problems.

Good Luck!

Chalo

Date: 03 Aug 2007 20:51:41
From: Anthony DeLorenzo
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

On Aug 3, 1:02 pm, Kinky Cowboy <u...@domain.com > wrote:

> By the time you've bought derailleurs with accompanying shifters, got
> a triple chainset instead of a modest single, plus a decent cassette
> and corresponding hub, you're quite a long way towards the cost of a
> Rohloff

I totally agree if I were starting from scratch, but I have a good
frame and lots of parts lying around right now for this bike, so the
cost to build it with a derailleur setup is pretty minimal. Basically,
no matter what route I go, the only things I need to actually buy are
a crank, bottom bracket, rear hub and spokes.

So, I'm looking at the difference between a non-Rohloff internal hub
and a decent quality rear hub, maybe Shimano XT, which is about $150
or so. The difference between either option and a Rohloff is more like
$800-900.

Regards,
Anthony

Date: 03 Aug 2007 20:43:00
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

Anthony DeLorenzo wrote:
> On Aug 3, 1:02 pm, Kinky Cowboy <u...@domain.com> wrote:
>
>> By the time you've bought derailleurs with accompanying shifters, got
>> a triple chainset instead of a modest single, plus a decent cassette
>> and corresponding hub, you're quite a long way towards the cost of a
>> Rohloff
>
> I totally agree if I were starting from scratch, but I have a good
> frame and lots of parts lying around right now for this bike, so the
> cost to build it with a derailleur setup is pretty minimal. Basically,
> no matter what route I go, the only things I need to actually buy are
> a crank, bottom bracket, rear hub and spokes.
>
> So, I'm looking at the difference between a non-Rohloff internal hub
> and a decent quality rear hub, maybe Shimano XT, which is about $150
> or so. The difference between either option and a Rohloff is more like
> $800-900.

You CAN NOT take the money with you when you die. Life is too short to
ride a less than satisfactory bicycle. If the Rohloff is what will suit
your needs the best, just buy it unless the financial hardship would be
so great you could not afford to eat.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 05 Aug 2007 09:35:45
From: (PeteCresswell)
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

Per Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman:
>If the Rohloff is what will suit
>your needs the best, just buy it unless the financial hardship would be
>so great you could not afford to eat.

One thing about Rohloff hubs (and other internal gear hubs?) that
nobody's pointed out yet: constant differences between gears.

On my Rohloffs, it's something like 13.5% between each gear.

This is ok with me for the kind of riding I do... but I can see
that it wouldn't be ok with a stronger rider who would want
closer spacing in the higher gears.
--
PeteCresswell

Date: 04 Aug 2007 08:11:35
From: NickP
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

Just get the Rohloff hub. They last and last and don't break, and the
running costs are a lot less than a derailleur system. I have three of the
hubs, including one on a tandem. Rohloff claim to have never received one
back that had failed.

"Anthony DeLorenzo" <anthony.delorenzo@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1186174301.727425.35880@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 3, 1:02 pm, Kinky Cowboy <u...@domain.com> wrote:
>
>> By the time you've bought derailleurs with accompanying shifters, got
>> a triple chainset instead of a modest single, plus a decent cassette
>> and corresponding hub, you're quite a long way towards the cost of a
>> Rohloff
>
> I totally agree if I were starting from scratch, but I have a good
> frame and lots of parts lying around right now for this bike, so the
> cost to build it with a derailleur setup is pretty minimal. Basically,
> no matter what route I go, the only things I need to actually buy are
> a crank, bottom bracket, rear hub and spokes.
>
> So, I'm looking at the difference between a non-Rohloff internal hub
> and a decent quality rear hub, maybe Shimano XT, which is about $150
> or so. The difference between either option and a Rohloff is more like
> $800-900.
>
> Regards,
> Anthony
>

Date: 05 Aug 2007 22:39:47
From: Joel Mayes
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

On 2007-08-03, NickP <someone@nowhere.au > wrote:
> Just get the Rohloff hub. They last and last and don't break, and the
> running costs are a lot less than a derailleur system. I have three of the
> hubs, including one on a tandem. Rohloff claim to have never received one
> back that had failed.

I have seen one fail. It took years and years of extreme abuse.

The owner claims it was the one of the first Rohloffs in Australia and
it has seen heavy use on a homebuilt loaded touring tandem with out of
phase cranks. The larger rider (and he is very large) uses home extended
200mm cranks (made from an old shimano steel cottered cranks and a less
old steel shimano non-cottered crank together!) and has the bike geared
*way* below the minimum rohloff recommends.

The out of phase cranks means there is continual force being applied to
the pedals and so no dead spot to shift in and the dog clutches failed
during the MBTC castlemain ride this year. Not completely he could still
use (IIRC) gears 2 and 14 and did ride the entire weekend with out
(other) problems.

Cheers

Joel

--
Human Powered Cycles

Date: 03 Aug 2007 18:45:32
From: (PeteCresswell)
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

Per NickP:
> Rohloff claim to have never received one
>back that had failed.

They received one of mine a couple of years ago - leaking oil
through the old-style gasket.
--
PeteCresswell

Date: 04 Aug 2007 11:57:29
From: NickP
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

By failure I meant damage to the hub mechanism making it unusable. My
Rohloff hubs weep oil from the seals as well, same as my car does, but I
don't regard the car to have failed because it drips oil on the garage
floor.

"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid > wrote in message
news:bvb7b3t4month09l813bcih76rulj6q5am@4ax.com...
> Per NickP:
>> Rohloff claim to have never received one
>>back that had failed.
>
> They received one of mine a couple of years ago - leaking oil
> through the old-style gasket.

Date: 05 Aug 2007 13:09:19
From: BobT
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

"NickP" <someone@nowhere.au > wrote in message
news:13b7n4t65cg8439@corp.supernews.com...
> My Rohloff hubs weep oil from the seals as well, ... snip

I have a Rohloff hub on my commuter bike. I haven't noticed any oil leaks.

Is this a very common problem?

Do you check the oil level in you hub periodically?

Is there any any easy way to to check the oil level in a Rohloff hub?

The only way I see to check the level would be to drain the hub and measure
the volume extracted.

I did notice that when I did my first yearly oil change in April, I only
drained about 10-15 ml of oil rather than the 25 ml I had installed. I
attributed this to incomplete drainage, perhaps it was from a very slow
leak.

BobT

Date: 06 Aug 2007 06:11:14
From: John Henderson
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

BobT wrote:

> I have a Rohloff hub on my commuter bike. I haven't noticed
> any oil leaks.
>
> Is this a very common problem?
>
> Do you check the oil level in you hub periodically?
>
> Is there any any easy way to to check the oil level in a
> Rohloff hub?
>
> The only way I see to check the level would be to drain the
> hub and measure the volume extracted.
>
> I did notice that when I did my first yearly oil change in
> April, I only drained about 10-15 ml of oil rather than the 25
> ml I had installed. I attributed this to incomplete drainage,
> perhaps it was from a very slow leak.

In case you're not aware of it, there's lots of information at:

http://www.rohloff.de/en/info/faq/speedhub_50014/oil/index.html

John

Date: 05 Aug 2007 15:37:39
From: (PeteCresswell)
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

Per BobT:
>I have a Rohloff hub on my commuter bike. I haven't noticed any oil leaks.
>
>Is this a very common problem?
>
>Do you check the oil level in you hub periodically?
>
>Is there any any easy way to to check the oil level in a Rohloff hub?
>
>The only way I see to check the level would be to drain the hub and measure
>the volume extracted.
>
>I did notice that when I did my first yearly oil change in April, I only
>drained about 10-15 ml of oil rather than the 25 ml I had installed. I
>attributed this to incomplete drainage, perhaps it was from a very slow
>leak.

My understanding is that the leaking is a combination of an older
seal design and improper oil changing.

The oil change can be tricky.

Instructions tell you what the capacity is and, if you just take
it from there, you can over-fill the hub by draining it and then
adding the recommended amount of oil.

Reason: after you think you've drained it, there is still a
significant amount of oil clinging to the substantial surface
area of all the gears and such within the hub - and adding the
amount of oil specified as the hub's capacity will result in
significantly more than that amount of oil being in the hub.
--
PeteCresswell

Date: 06 Aug 2007 06:05:28
From: Dan Burkhart
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

(PeteCresswell) Wrote:
> Per BobT:
> >I have a Rohloff hub on my commuter bike. I haven't noticed any oi
> leaks.
> >
> >Is this a very common problem?
> >
> >Do you check the oil level in you hub periodically?
> >
> >Is there any any easy way to to check the oil level in a Rohloff hub?
> >
> >The only way I see to check the level would be to drain the hub an
> measure
> >the volume extracted.
> >
> >I did notice that when I did my first yearly oil change in April,
> only
> >drained about 10-15 ml of oil rather than the 25 ml I had installed.
> I
> >attributed this to incomplete drainage, perhaps it was from a ver
> slow
> >leak.
>
> My understanding is that the leaking is a combination of an older
> seal design and improper oil changing.
>
> The oil change can be tricky.
>
> Instructions tell you what the capacity is and, if you just take
> it from there, you can over-fill the hub by draining it and then
> adding the recommended amount of oil.
>
> Reason: after you think you've drained it, there is still a
> significant amount of oil clinging to the substantial surface
> area of all the gears and such within the hub - and adding the
> amount of oil specified as the hub's capacity will result in
> significantly more than that amount of oil being in the hub.
> --
> PeteCresswell
That's why they provide you with the flush oil with the change kit
Washes most of the old lube out of the crevices. You will never get i
all out no matter what you do

--
Dan Burkhart

Date: 05 Aug 2007 16:03:04
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

Dan Burkhart wrote:
>
> That's why they [Rohloff] provide you with the flush oil with the change kit.
> Washes most of the old lube out of the crevices. You will never get it
> all out no matter what you do.

Even if you ignite the flushing solvent while it is still in the hub?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 05 Aug 2007 21:18:09
From: Tosspot
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

BobT wrote:
> "NickP" <someone@nowhere.au> wrote in message
> news:13b7n4t65cg8439@corp.supernews.com...
>
>>My Rohloff hubs weep oil from the seals as well, ... snip
>
>
> I have a Rohloff hub on my commuter bike. I haven't noticed any oil leaks.
>
> Is this a very common problem?
>
> Do you check the oil level in you hub periodically?
>
> Is there any any easy way to to check the oil level in a Rohloff hub?
>
> The only way I see to check the level would be to drain the hub and measure
> the volume extracted.
>
> I did notice that when I did my first yearly oil change in April, I only
> drained about 10-15 ml of oil rather than the 25 ml I had installed. I
> attributed this to incomplete drainage, perhaps it was from a very slow
> leak.

My shop bought one did that, the one I filled myself didn't. I suspect
a Laissez-faire attitude on the part of the shops, or maybe the hub
being stored on its side. In any event, they run fine without oil,
although I wouldn't go so far as to recommend it.

Date: 05 Aug 2007 09:33:58
From: (PeteCresswell)
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

Per NickP:
>By failure I meant damage to the hub mechanism making it unusable. My
>Rohloff hubs weep oil from the seals as well, same as my car does, but I
>don't regard the car to have failed because it drips oil on the garage
>floor.

Disc brakes. I discovered my leak while descending a very steep
scree-covered rock surface. The rear brake didn't work any more
because the hub had leaked oil on it. Somehow I managed to stop
without washing out the front wheel.... but I'd say that at that
point the bike was unusable.
--
PeteCresswell

Date: 03 Aug 2007 21:02:37
From: Kinky Cowboy
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:22:44 -0000, Anthony DeLorenzo
<anthony.delorenzo@gmail.com > wrote:

>
>At 4-5 times the cost I just can't afford a Rohloff. Are any of the
>current offerings from S-A, Shimano or SRAM suitable for my needs, or
>should I stick to a derailleur and keep saving for a Rohloff in the
>future?
>

By the time you've bought derailleurs with accompanying shifters, got
a triple chainset instead of a modest single, plus a decent cassette
and corresponding hub, you're quite a long way towards the cost of a
Rohloff

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Date: 04 Aug 2007 06:20:26
From: Dan Burkhart
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

Kinky Cowboy Wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:22:44 -0000, Anthony DeLorenzo
> <anthony.delorenzo@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >At 4-5 times the cost I just can't afford a Rohloff. Are any of the
> >current offerings from S-A, Shimano or SRAM suitable for my needs, or
> >should I stick to a derailleur and keep saving for a Rohloff in the
> >future?
> >
>
> By the time you've bought derailleurs with accompanying shifters, got
> a triple chainset instead of a modest single, plus a decent cassette
> and corresponding hub, you're quite a long way towards the cost of a
> Rohloff
>
> Kinky Cowboy*
>
> *Batteries not included
> May contain traces of nuts
> Your milage may vary
Not to mention that chainrings and cassettes on a derailleur syste
will require much more frequent replacement with more expensive part
than the Rohloff ever will

--
Dan Burkhart

Date: 03 Aug 2007 19:16:14
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

On Aug 3, 12:22 pm, Anthony DeLorenzo <anthony.delore...@gmail.com >
wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I'm really keen to use an internally-geared hub on a touring bike I am
> building up. I like (need?) to have a strong, non-dished rear wheel
> and I also prefer to not fuss with derailleurs. This will be my only
> multi-geared bike, my other rides are a singlespeed MTB and a fixie
> commuter.
>
How 'bout a Sturmey Archer AW? Durable, classic, cheap. Just make sure
the cable tension is perfect so you don't slip out of gear.

Date: 03 Aug 2007 20:40:06
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

landotter who? wrote:
> On Aug 3, 12:22 pm, Anthony DeLorenzo <anthony.delore...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I'm really keen to use an internally-geared hub on a touring bike I am
>> building up. I like (need?) to have a strong, non-dished rear wheel
>> and I also prefer to not fuss with derailleurs. This will be my only
>> multi-geared bike, my other rides are a singlespeed MTB and a fixie
>> commuter.
>>
> How 'bout a Sturmey Archer AW? Durable, classic, cheap. Just make sure
> the cable tension is perfect so you don't slip out of gear.

Trolling for Jobst?
<http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/sturmey-archer.html >

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 03 Aug 2007 11:34:45
From:
Subject: Re: Robust internal gear hubs

For a wide range geared touring bike, Rolhoff is the only game in town
for a single device solution.