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Main
Date: 31 May 2007 15:35:40
From: Thomas Hood
Subject: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
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http://tinyurl.com/3792pk
Note the right-hand cone appears to be inboard, like Campag hubs.
Thoughts?
Thomas Hood
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Date: 06 Jun 2007 10:54:13
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
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On Jun 6, 10:18 am, Matt O'Toole <mattoto...@letterboxes.org > wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 17:19:19 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote:
> > My bicycle messenger style goes down the center stripe when
> > congestion is great on the main drag.
>
> In VA, that would be illegal.
Probably in most states. In California, "lane sharing" is legal --
but riding down the centerline may amount to unsafe lane changing.
Judging by the number of motorcycles that do this on the highways
(parking lots) in So Cal, I guess the CHP lets it go. -- Jay Beattie.
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Date: 06 Jun 2007 12:22:12
From: Bill
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
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Jay Beattie wrote:
> On Jun 6, 10:18 am, Matt O'Toole <mattoto...@letterboxes.org> wrote:
>> On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 17:19:19 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote:
>>> My bicycle messenger style goes down the center stripe when
>>> congestion is great on the main drag.
>> In VA, that would be illegal.
>
> Probably in most states. In California, "lane sharing" is legal --
> but riding down the centerline may amount to unsafe lane changing.
> Judging by the number of motorcycles that do this on the highways
> (parking lots) in So Cal, I guess the CHP lets it go. -- Jay Beattie.
>
I'm in California and as far as I know you can ride between two lanes of
cars but not in the middle where you would be facing oncoming traffic.
I did that with a motorcycle on the freeway once and got pulled over and
admonished by a CHP on (guess) a motorcycle. He reminded me of the fact
that all the broken glass and debris collected there so it was not a
good place to be riding. I'm pretty sure that would apply to bicycles
and city streets too.
Bill Baka
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Date: 04 Jun 2007 14:28:10
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
On Jun 4, 11:38 am, D'ohBoy <peteng...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Jun 4, 1:28 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Someone writes:
> > >> Why would anyone train for a supported tour designed to be
> > >> artificially difficult.
> > > Artificially? Ummm, last time I was there the mountains were all as
> > > they had been for the last 5000 years or more. Except for the
> > > addition of the roads, which weren't added specifically for the
> > > Death Ride.
>
> > The artifact is that you can string the roads together in a sequence
> > that exceeds most riders comfort level, making it an arduous chore.
> > If you don't believe that, you should read some of their ride reports.
> > They are about pain and suffering. If you didn't like the ride, don't
> > tell me about it.
>
> > > And do you sneer at those who mountain climb extremely difficult
> > > climbs because they choose to climb them as well?
>
> > As long as they don't seek my sympathy for their suffering. My
> > climbing friends don't wear shirts that say they survived Half Dome or
> > El Capitan, or for that matter the Eiger.
>
> > Jobst Brandt
>
> Ummmm... been there, rode that (well, most of it).
>
> Didn't buy the jersey.
>
> And if it makes them feel good then who gives a crap whether they like
> to advertise it? Gee, how different is that from someone who puts up
> a web site journal complete with high-res pics of every single one of
> their trips riding throughout the Alps?
>
> And those that did finish the DR, or climbed those rocks, but didn't
> buy the jersey, I'm sure would be glad to tell you about it.
Plus, a ride jersey (DR, STP, what-have-you) is a lot less obnoxious
than a trade team outfit. Look at me! I ride for Francaise des Jeux!
(in a dorky white outfit) I can't believe what people wear these
days.
I have a DR jersey (or two, I can't remember). I got it because it
was cheap. I don't wear it because it is now too small. It is
amazing how jersies shrink as you grow older.
By the way, see http://www.teameverest03.org/souvenirs/index.jsp
It's the Team Everest t-shirt. -- Jay Beattie.
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Date: 05 Jun 2007 05:32:45
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
In article
<1180992490.673889.207320@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com >
,
Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
> On Jun 4, 11:38 am, D'ohBoy <peteng...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jun 4, 1:28 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Someone writes:
> > > >> Why would anyone train for a supported tour designed to be
> > > >> artificially difficult.
> > > > Artificially? Ummm, last time I was there the mountains were all as
> > > > they had been for the last 5000 years or more. Except for the
> > > > addition of the roads, which weren't added specifically for the
> > > > Death Ride.
> >
> > > The artifact is that you can string the roads together in a sequence
> > > that exceeds most riders comfort level, making it an arduous chore.
> > > If you don't believe that, you should read some of their ride reports.
> > > They are about pain and suffering. If you didn't like the ride, don't
> > > tell me about it.
> >
> > > > And do you sneer at those who mountain climb extremely difficult
> > > > climbs because they choose to climb them as well?
> >
> > > As long as they don't seek my sympathy for their suffering. My
> > > climbing friends don't wear shirts that say they survived Half Dome or
> > > El Capitan, or for that matter the Eiger.
> >
> > > Jobst Brandt
> >
> > Ummmm... been there, rode that (well, most of it).
> >
> > Didn't buy the jersey.
> >
> > And if it makes them feel good then who gives a crap whether they like
> > to advertise it? Gee, how different is that from someone who puts up
> > a web site journal complete with high-res pics of every single one of
> > their trips riding throughout the Alps?
> >
> > And those that did finish the DR, or climbed those rocks, but didn't
> > buy the jersey, I'm sure would be glad to tell you about it.
>
> Plus, a ride jersey (DR, STP, what-have-you) is a lot less obnoxious
> than a trade team outfit. Look at me! I ride for Francaise des Jeux!
> (in a dorky white outfit) I can't believe what people wear these
> days.
>
> I have a DR jersey (or two, I can't remember). I got it because it
> was cheap. I don't wear it because it is now too small. It is
> amazing how jersies shrink as you grow older.
>
> By the way, see http://www.teameverest03.org/souvenirs/index.jsp
> It's the Team Everest t-shirt. -- Jay Beattie.
They should pay me to wear their names on my clothes.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 04 Jun 2007 20:12:18
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
David L. Johnson wrote:
>
> Well, the Shimano design with the outboard bearing race is arguably
> superior. However, your observation about the (gotta be millions of)
> miles on Campy and other hubs with an inboard right bearing race
> indicates that they are certainly strong enough.
>
> I bet, though, that the reason is to allow a smaller-diameter freehub,
> to allow a smaller sprocket.
It looks like a bigger axle may be another objective. Skinny axles
with external threading along their most highly stressed sections are
the goofiest thing about Shimano freehubs IMO.
Chalo
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Date: 04 Jun 2007 12:49:10
From: D'ohBoy
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
On Jun 4, 1:28 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Someone writes:
> >> Why would anyone train for a supported tour designed to be
> >> artificially difficult.
> > Artificially? Ummm, last time I was there the mountains were all as
> > they had been for the last 5000 years or more. Except for the
> > addition of the roads, which weren't added specifically for the
> > Death Ride.
>
> The artifact is that you can string the roads together in a sequence
> that exceeds most riders comfort level, making it an arduous chore.
> If you don't believe that, you should read some of their ride reports.
> They are about pain and suffering. If you didn't like the ride, don't
> tell me about it.
>
> > And do you sneer at those who mountain climb extremely difficult
> > climbs because they choose to climb them as well?
>
> As long as they don't seek my sympathy for their suffering. My
> climbing friends don't wear shirts that say they survived Half Dome or
> El Capitan, or for that matter the Eiger.
>
> Jobst Brandt
Oh, yeah, there was that book, Into Thin Air, and the movie, Touching
the Void. Even better than t-shirts.
D'ohBoy
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Date: 04 Jun 2007 19:20:00
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
On Jun 4, 2:09 pm, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr > wrote:
> Dans le message denews:1180982295.704658.9330@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.co=
m,
> D'ohBoy <peteng...@yahoo.com> a r=E9fl=E9chi, et puis a d=E9clar=E9 :
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 4, 1:28 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> >> Someone writes:
> >>>> Why would anyone train for a supported tour designed to be
> >>>> artificially difficult.
> >>> Artificially? Ummm, last time I was there the mountains were all as
> >>> they had been for the last 5000 years or more. Except for the
> >>> addition of the roads, which weren't added specifically for the
> >>> Death Ride.
>
> >> The artifact is that you can string the roads together in a sequence
> >> that exceeds most riders comfort level, making it an arduous chore.
> >> If you don't believe that, you should read some of their ride
> >> reports. They are about pain and suffering. If you didn't like the
> >> ride, don't tell me about it.
>
> >>> And do you sneer at those who mountain climb extremely difficult
> >>> climbs because they choose to climb them as well?
>
> >> As long as they don't seek my sympathy for their suffering. My
> >> climbing friends don't wear shirts that say they survived Half Dome
> >> or El Capitan, or for that matter the Eiger.
>
> >> Jobst Brandt
>
> > Ummmm... been there, rode that (well, most of it).
>
> > Didn't buy the jersey.
>
> > And if it makes them feel good then who gives a crap whether they like
> > to advertise it? Gee, how different is that from someone who puts up
> > a web site journal complete with high-res pics of every single one of
> > their trips riding throughout the Alps?
>
> > And those that did finish the DR, or climbed those rocks, but didn't
> > buy the jersey, I'm sure would be glad to tell you about it.
>
> > D'ohBoy
>
> At least you didn't challenge his claim that he has friends. That was ki=
nd- Hide quoted text -
>
That's a 9.95 on the 10pt Zinger Scale! :-)
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Date: 04 Jun 2007 11:38:15
From: D'ohBoy
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
On Jun 4, 1:28 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Someone writes:
> >> Why would anyone train for a supported tour designed to be
> >> artificially difficult.
> > Artificially? Ummm, last time I was there the mountains were all as
> > they had been for the last 5000 years or more. Except for the
> > addition of the roads, which weren't added specifically for the
> > Death Ride.
>
> The artifact is that you can string the roads together in a sequence
> that exceeds most riders comfort level, making it an arduous chore.
> If you don't believe that, you should read some of their ride reports.
> They are about pain and suffering. If you didn't like the ride, don't
> tell me about it.
>
> > And do you sneer at those who mountain climb extremely difficult
> > climbs because they choose to climb them as well?
>
> As long as they don't seek my sympathy for their suffering. My
> climbing friends don't wear shirts that say they survived Half Dome or
> El Capitan, or for that matter the Eiger.
>
> Jobst Brandt
Ummmm... been there, rode that (well, most of it).
Didn't buy the jersey.
And if it makes them feel good then who gives a crap whether they like
to advertise it? Gee, how different is that from someone who puts up
a web site journal complete with high-res pics of every single one of
their trips riding throughout the Alps?
And those that did finish the DR, or climbed those rocks, but didn't
buy the jersey, I'm sure would be glad to tell you about it.
D'ohBoy
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Date: 04 Jun 2007 21:09:13
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
Dans le message de news:1180982295.704658.9330@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com,
D'ohBoy <petengail@yahoo.com > a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> On Jun 4, 1:28 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>> Someone writes:
>>>> Why would anyone train for a supported tour designed to be
>>>> artificially difficult.
>>> Artificially? Ummm, last time I was there the mountains were all as
>>> they had been for the last 5000 years or more. Except for the
>>> addition of the roads, which weren't added specifically for the
>>> Death Ride.
>>
>> The artifact is that you can string the roads together in a sequence
>> that exceeds most riders comfort level, making it an arduous chore.
>> If you don't believe that, you should read some of their ride
>> reports. They are about pain and suffering. If you didn't like the
>> ride, don't tell me about it.
>>
>>> And do you sneer at those who mountain climb extremely difficult
>>> climbs because they choose to climb them as well?
>>
>> As long as they don't seek my sympathy for their suffering. My
>> climbing friends don't wear shirts that say they survived Half Dome
>> or El Capitan, or for that matter the Eiger.
>>
>> Jobst Brandt
>
>
> Ummmm... been there, rode that (well, most of it).
>
> Didn't buy the jersey.
>
> And if it makes them feel good then who gives a crap whether they like
> to advertise it? Gee, how different is that from someone who puts up
> a web site journal complete with high-res pics of every single one of
> their trips riding throughout the Alps?
>
> And those that did finish the DR, or climbed those rocks, but didn't
> buy the jersey, I'm sure would be glad to tell you about it.
>
> D'ohBoy
At least you didn't challenge his claim that he has friends. That was kind
|
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Date: 04 Jun 2007 10:45:33
From: D'ohBoy
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
On Jun 1, 5:08 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Why would anyone train for a supported
> tour designed to be artificially difficult.
Artificially? Ummm, last time I was there the mountains were all as
they had been for the last 5000 years or more. Except for the
addition of the roads, which weren't added specifically for the Death
Ride.
And do you sneer at those who mountain climb extremely difficult
climbs because they choose to climb them as well?
D'ohBoy
|
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Date: 04 Jun 2007 18:28:05
From:
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
Someone writes:
>> Why would anyone train for a supported tour designed to be
>> artificially difficult.
> Artificially? Ummm, last time I was there the mountains were all as
> they had been for the last 5000 years or more. Except for the
> addition of the roads, which weren't added specifically for the
> Death Ride.
The artifact is that you can string the roads together in a sequence
that exceeds most riders comfort level, making it an arduous chore.
If you don't believe that, you should read some of their ride reports.
They are about pain and suffering. If you didn't like the ride, don't
tell me about it.
> And do you sneer at those who mountain climb extremely difficult
> climbs because they choose to climb them as well?
As long as they don't seek my sympathy for their suffering. My
climbing friends don't wear shirts that say they survived Half Dome or
El Capitan, or for that matter the Eiger.
Jobst Brandt
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Date: 01 Jun 2007 16:44:13
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
On Jun 1, 11:34 am, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> David L. Johnson writes:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3792pk
>
> >>> Note the right-hand cone appears to be inboard, like Campag hubs.
> >>> Thoughts?
> >> Backwards step? is the title of your thread. Prejudging the
> >> design? How many tens of thousands of miles do you have on inboard
> >> bearing hubs, like the Campagnolo rear hub?
> > Well, the Shimano design with the outboard bearing race is arguably
> > superior. However, your observation about the (gotta be millions
> > of) miles on Campy and other hubs with an inboard right bearing race
> > indicates that they are certainly strong enough.
>
> That is not so. Talk to frame builders and ask how many broken right
> rear dropouts they replace. THese are caused by axle flexing and
> failures. Look at the face of any right rear dropout that uses an
> overhung axle (Campagnolo) and note the deep erosion in the contact
> face. These wheels must be manually knocked out of engagement after
> the QR is opened because they are so deeply eroded.
>
> > I bet, though, that the reason is to allow a smaller-diameter
> > freehub, to allow a smaller sprocket.
>
> Gotta have that 53t-11t ratio even though it can only be used on
> descents where coasting is faster or with a great tailwind where a
> smaller gear would do better.
You have just dashed the hopes and dreams of a legion of wannabes
hoping to get a sponsored ride on Team Mitty!
> That's a 130" gear by the way. If you
> can pedal that at 100RPM that would be 60.5kmh, truly a new hour
> record.
>
> Jobst Brandt
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Date: 01 Jun 2007 05:41:20
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
On May 31, 5:53 pm, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
<russellseat...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On May 31, 5:35 pm, Thomas Hood <thomas.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/3792pk
>
> > Note the right-hand cone appears to be inboard, like Campag hubs.
>
> > Thoughts?
>
> > Thomas Hood
>
> Backwards step? is the title of your thread. Prejudging the design?
> How many tens of thousands of miles do you have on inborad bearing
> hubs, like the Campagnolo rear hub?
I think the point is a 'good' design feature of shimano hubs is
having the freehub body bolted onto the hub body with bearing support
outboard, definately a great design. Doubt anybody will bend the new
aluminum axle, just like none are bent with other non supported
freehub bodied hubs. But it's all about weight..I think 3 pawls should
be a minimum, and the 7800 have that.
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Date: 01 Jun 2007 04:33:13
From: steve
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
On May 31, 6:35 pm, Thomas Hood <thomas.h...@gmail.com > wrote:
> http://tinyurl.com/3792pk
>
> Note the right-hand cone appears to be inboard, like Campag hubs.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Thomas Hood
I think one of the big reasons shimano went with the inboard bearing
design was so they could use a larger diameter aluminum axle and
aluminum feehub body. With there old design they had to have a ten
millimeter hex bolt that bolted the freehub body onto the hub body
which limited the diameter of the axle meaning they had to use ti.
(for dura-ace) in the older models to get the strength they needed.
Also since they are using an aluminum freehub body it would be
difficult to design a system that housed the racheting mech. in the
freehub body's like there older designs. Ultimately the system they
went with in the 7800 is lighter than the old 7700.
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Date: 01 Jun 2007 02:54:47
From: Thomas Hood
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
On Jun 1, 4:09 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net > wrote:
> Thomas Hood wrote:
> >http://tinyurl.com/3792pk
>
> > Note the right-hand cone appears to be inboard, like Campag hubs.
>
> > Thoughts?
>
> > Thomas Hood
>
> i think this post has Ct [troll coefficient] of 0.9
...in the same breath: http://tinyurl.com/ypr2kn
Extraordinary.
Tom
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Date: 31 May 2007 22:52:56
From: JeffWills
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
On May 31, 5:24 pm, "David L. Johnson" <david.john...@lehigh.edu >
wrote:
>
> I bet, though, that the reason is to allow a smaller-diameter freehub,
> to allow a smaller sprocket.
>
Nope, this design:
http://tinyurl.com/28fftt
with this cassette:
http://tinyurl.com/2fp6lt
allows a smaller sprocket than the Dura-Ace.
Jeff
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Date: 01 Jun 2007 16:40:09
From:
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
Jeff Wills writes:
>> I bet, though, that the reason is to allow a smaller-diameter
>> freehub, to allow a smaller sprocket.
> Nope, this design:
> http://tinyurl.com/28fftt
> with this cassette:
> http://tinyurl.com/2fp6lt
> allows a smaller sprocket than the Dura-Ace.
I find interesting that the special tool TL-HG09 is offered rather
than using a sprocket and chain whip to unscrew the body.
Jobst Brandt
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Date: 31 May 2007 20:09:25
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
Thomas Hood wrote:
> http://tinyurl.com/3792pk
>
> Note the right-hand cone appears to be inboard, like Campag hubs.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Thomas Hood
>
i think this post has Ct [troll coefficient] of 0.9
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Date: 31 May 2007 16:53:58
From: russellseaton1@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
On May 31, 5:35 pm, Thomas Hood <thomas.h...@gmail.com > wrote:
> http://tinyurl.com/3792pk
>
> Note the right-hand cone appears to be inboard, like Campag hubs.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Thomas Hood
Backwards step? is the title of your thread. Prejudging the design?
How many tens of thousands of miles do you have on inborad bearing
hubs, like the Campagnolo rear hub?
|
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Date: 31 May 2007 21:24:50
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On May 31, 5:35 pm, Thomas Hood <thomas.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> http://tinyurl.com/3792pk
>>
>> Note the right-hand cone appears to be inboard, like Campag hubs.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Thomas Hood
>
> Backwards step? is the title of your thread. Prejudging the design?
> How many tens of thousands of miles do you have on inborad bearing
> hubs, like the Campagnolo rear hub?
>
Well, the Shimano design with the outboard bearing race is arguably
superior. However, your observation about the (gotta be millions of)
miles on Campy and other hubs with an inboard right bearing race
indicates that they are certainly strong enough.
I bet, though, that the reason is to allow a smaller-diameter freehub,
to allow a smaller sprocket.
--
David L. Johnson
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by
little statesmen and philosophers and divines."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
|
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Date: 01 Jun 2007 16:34:43
From:
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
David L. Johnson writes:
http://tinyurl.com/3792pk
>>> Note the right-hand cone appears to be inboard, like Campag hubs.
>>> Thoughts?
>> Backwards step? is the title of your thread. Prejudging the
>> design? How many tens of thousands of miles do you have on inboard
>> bearing hubs, like the Campagnolo rear hub?
> Well, the Shimano design with the outboard bearing race is arguably
> superior. However, your observation about the (gotta be millions
> of) miles on Campy and other hubs with an inboard right bearing race
> indicates that they are certainly strong enough.
That is not so. Talk to frame builders and ask how many broken right
rear dropouts they replace. THese are caused by axle flexing and
failures. Look at the face of any right rear dropout that uses an
overhung axle (Campagnolo) and note the deep erosion in the contact
face. These wheels must be manually knocked out of engagement after
the QR is opened because they are so deeply eroded.
> I bet, though, that the reason is to allow a smaller-diameter
> freehub, to allow a smaller sprocket.
Gotta have that 53t-11t ratio even though it can only be used on
descents where coasting is faster or with a great tailwind where a
smaller gear would do better. That's a 130" gear by the way. If you
can pedal that at 100RPM that would be 60.5kmh, truly a new hour
record.
Jobst Brandt
|
| | | | |
Date: 02 Jun 2007 08:09:15
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
On 01 Jun 2007 16:34:43 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Gotta have that 53t-11t ratio even though it can only be used on
> descents where coasting is faster or with a great tailwind where a
> smaller gear would do better. That's a 130" gear by the way. If you
> can pedal that at 100RPM that would be 60.5kmh, truly a new hour
> record.
Huh? Having 53-11 means that I can keep pedalling on descents up
to about 75 km/h, at least 10km/h faster than coasting. I'd get dropped
if I didn't have that gear, since the others in my group do.
--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw
|
| | | | |
Date: 01 Jun 2007 12:07:05
From:
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
On 01 Jun 2007 16:34:43 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
[snip]
>Gotta have that 53t-11t ratio even though it can only be used on
>descents where coasting is faster or with a great tailwind where a
>smaller gear would do better. That's a 130" gear by the way. If you
>can pedal that at 100RPM that would be 60.5kmh, truly a new hour
>record.
>
>Jobst Brandt
Dear Jobst,
I happily pedal my 53 x 11 up and down the Arkansas River at about 20
mph every day at about 53 rpm.
In a thread with many comments about how most (though not all) riders
lower their cadence on hills, Robert Chung mentioned that studies
indicate maximum efficiency is around 50~60 rpm and drops as cadence
increases:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/f206ae932369120f
There are advantages to spinning, but it's actually riders with Walter
Mitty fantasies who insist on 90 to 100 rpm--ordinary riders who
haven't been told that they must spin will naturally cruise around at
lower cadences.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
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Date: 01 Jun 2007 21:57:56
From:
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
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Carl Fogel writes:
>> Gotta have that 53t-11t ratio even though it can only be used on
>> descents where coasting is faster or with a great tailwind where a
>> smaller gear would do better. That's a 130" gear by the way. If
>> you can pedal that at 100RPM that would be 60.5kmh, truly a new
>> hour record.
> I happily pedal my 53 x 11 up and down the Arkansas River at about
> 20 mph every day at about 53 rpm.
> In a thread with many comments about how most (though not all)
> riders lower their cadence on hills, Robert Chung mentioned that
> studies indicate maximum efficiency is around 50~60 rpm and drops as
> cadence increases:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/f206ae932369120f
> There are advantages to spinning, but it's actually riders with
> Walter Mitty fantasies who insist on 90 to 100 rpm--ordinary riders
> who haven't been told that they must spin will naturally cruise
> around at lower cadences.
No fair! That's my description of bicycling. On the other hand, a
gear that large is a bit tough to get rolling once stopped, especially
if there is a little rise after the traffic light (as there often is).
My flatland gear is 50t-15t including some 6% grades if not long.
However, Sonora Pass takes bottom gear, whatever that is (currently
46t-26t).
Jobst Brandt
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Date: 04 Jun 2007 06:14:37
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
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In article <46609664$0$14125$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> My flatland gear is 50t-15t including some 6% grades if not long.
> However, Sonora Pass takes bottom gear, whatever that is (currently
> 46t-26t).
What is your urban gear for unavoidable traffic stops?
--
Michael Press
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Date: 04 Jun 2007 17:19:19
From:
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
Michael Press writes:
>> My flatland gear is 50t-15t including some 6% grades if not long.
>> However, Sonora Pass takes bottom gear, whatever that is (currently
>> 46t-26t).
> What is your urban gear for unavoidable traffic stops?
As I said 50t-15t. With cleated shoes this presents no starting
problem... unless you think low gears help getting ahead in city
traffic. My bicycle messenger style goes down the center stripe when
congestion is great on the main drag.
Jobst Brandt
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Date: 06 Jun 2007 13:18:49
From: Matt O'Toole
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
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On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 17:19:19 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote:
> My bicycle messenger style goes down the center stripe when
> congestion is great on the main drag.
In VA, that would be illegal.
Matt O.
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Date: 06 Jun 2007 21:36:15
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
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In article
<pan.2007.06.06.17.18.49.559443@letterboxes.org >,
Matt O'Toole <mattotoole@letterboxes.org > wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 17:19:19 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote:
>
> > My bicycle messenger style goes down the center stripe when
> > congestion is great on the main drag.
>
> In VA, that would be illegal.
Yes, but can you get away with doing it in slow
congested traffic? That is the only time for it.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 07 Jun 2007 14:11:09
From: Matt O'Toole
Subject: lane splitting, was Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 21:36:15 +0000, Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <pan.2007.06.06.17.18.49.559443@letterboxes.org>,
> Matt O'Toole <mattotoole@letterboxes.org> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 17:19:19 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote:
>>
>> > My bicycle messenger style goes down the center stripe when
>> > congestion is great on the main drag.
>>
>> In VA, that would be illegal.
>
> Yes, but can you get away with doing it in slow
> congested traffic? That is the only time for it.
Passing to the left of the leftmost traffic lane, on a bicycle, is
specifically prohibited in VA. You can do it only if you can legally
and safely use the oncoming lane to pass (ie, no double yellow). Sorry I
don't have a link to the actual law right now.
If it makes you feel any better, bicyclists are allowed to ride the wrong
way on one way streets in VA. I'm not sure how good an idea this is, but
it's really handy sometimes.
Matt O.
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Date: 07 Jun 2007 22:39:10
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: lane splitting, was Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
In article
<pan.2007.06.07.18.11.07.515516@letterboxes.org >,
Matt O'Toole <mattotoole@letterboxes.org > wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 21:36:15 +0000, Michael Press wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <pan.2007.06.06.17.18.49.559443@letterboxes.org>,
> > Matt O'Toole <mattotoole@letterboxes.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 17:19:19 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote:
> >>
> >> > My bicycle messenger style goes down the center stripe when
> >> > congestion is great on the main drag.
> >>
> >> In VA, that would be illegal.
> >
> > Yes, but can you get away with doing it in slow
> > congested traffic? That is the only time for it.
>
> Passing to the left of the leftmost traffic lane, on a bicycle, is
> specifically prohibited in VA. You can do it only if you can legally
> and safely use the oncoming lane to pass (ie, no double yellow). Sorry I
> don't have a link to the actual law right now.
I am sure it is illegal everywhere.
>
> If it makes you feel any better, bicyclists are allowed to ride the wrong
> way on one way streets in VA. I'm not sure how good an idea this is, but
> it's really handy sometimes.
Oddly, the only stupid bicycle trick that actually
raises my blood pressure is riding the wrong way.
They could hurt me. It is even worse when they
breeze through an intersection.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 07 Jun 2007 19:09:48
From: Bill
Subject: Re: lane splitting, was Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing
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Matt O'Toole wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 21:36:15 +0000, Michael Press wrote:
>
>> In article
>> <pan.2007.06.06.17.18.49.559443@letterboxes.org>,
>> Matt O'Toole <mattotoole@letterboxes.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 17:19:19 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote:
>>>
>>>> My bicycle messenger style goes down the center stripe when
>>>> congestion is great on the main drag.
>>> In VA, that would be illegal.
>> Yes, but can you get away with doing it in slow
>> congested traffic? That is the only time for it.
>
> Passing to the left of the leftmost traffic lane, on a bicycle, is
> specifically prohibited in VA. You can do it only if you can legally
> and safely use the oncoming lane to pass (ie, no double yellow). Sorry I
> don't have a link to the actual law right now.
California is the same, and that is probably good since riding in the
middle of the road in traffic just sounds like an accident waiting to
happen.
>
> If it makes you feel any better, bicyclists are allowed to ride the wrong
> way on one way streets in VA. I'm not sure how good an idea this is, but
> it's really handy sometimes.
At least the rider gets to see 'ALL' of the traffic that might hit him.
Bill Baka
>
> Matt O.
>
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Date: 04 Jun 2007 22:08:41
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
In article <46644997$0$14104$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Michael Press writes:
>
> >> My flatland gear is 50t-15t including some 6% grades if not long.
> >> However, Sonora Pass takes bottom gear, whatever that is (currently
> >> 46t-26t).
>
> > What is your urban gear for unavoidable traffic stops?
>
> As I said 50t-15t. With cleated shoes this presents no starting
> problem... unless you think low gears help getting ahead in city
> traffic.
Not my point at all. I stay in one gear almost all the
time. I run 50/18, and have no trouble starting from
zero; but 50/15 is not for me. Sometimes I get into
50/16 and it is doable.
> My bicycle messenger style goes down the center stripe when
> congestion is great on the main drag.
I too ride the center line on congested streets. Far
safer than between the parked cars and the right lane
with its dangers of opening doors, parked cars rolling
out in front of me because I cannot be seen, and cars
in the traffic lane parallel parking or turning right,
as well as bicycles in that lane. It is good to be out
seeing and being seen.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 01 Jun 2007 14:56:02
From: dvt
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
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carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> There are advantages to spinning, but it's actually riders with Walter
> Mitty fantasies who insist on 90 to 100 rpm--ordinary riders who
> haven't been told that they must spin will naturally cruise around at
> lower cadences.
That's a really annoying attitude -- if you spin, you must be a Walter
Mitty. I spin because I tried it and I like it.
--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu
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Date: 01 Jun 2007 22:21:15
From:
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
Dave Usenet writes:
>> There are advantages to spinning, but it's actually riders with Walter
>> Mitty fantasies who insist on 90 to 100 rpm--ordinary riders who
>> haven't been told that they must spin will naturally cruise around at
>> lower cadences.
> That's a really annoying attitude -- if you spin, you must be a
> Walter Mitty. I spin because I tried it and I like it.
I've never seen anyone spin up Sonora Pass, Monitor, Ebbetts, or
Pacific Grade although I've seen a lot of spinners on these rides. Of
course they ask if I am training for "The Death Ride". No! I'm out
enjoying the Sierra in spring. Why would anyone train for a supported
tour designed to be artificially difficult. Maybe it's the jersey
that you wear the rest of your life that says in bright colors:
"I survived the Markleeville Death Ride".
https://www.deathride.com/store/show_product_pp.php?p_id=C037&cat_id=4
https://www.deathride.com/store/show_product_pp.php?p_id=C071&cat_id=7
Jobst Brandt
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Date: 04 Jun 2007 12:07:40
From: dvt
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
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jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Dave Usenet writes:
>
>>> There are advantages to spinning, but it's actually riders with Walter
>>> Mitty fantasies who insist on 90 to 100 rpm--ordinary riders who
>>> haven't been told that they must spin will naturally cruise around at
>>> lower cadences.
>
>> That's a really annoying attitude -- if you spin, you must be a
>> Walter Mitty. I spin because I tried it and I like it.
>
> I've never seen anyone spin up Sonora Pass, Monitor, Ebbetts, or
> Pacific Grade although I've seen a lot of spinners on these rides.
And that's the standard that must be passed before a rider spins without
being considered a Walter Mitty? And you go on to say...
> Of
> course they ask if I am training for "The Death Ride". No! I'm out
> enjoying the Sierra in spring. Why would anyone train for a supported
> tour designed to be artificially difficult. Maybe it's the jersey
> that you wear the rest of your life that says in bright colors:
>
> "I survived the Markleeville Death Ride".
You mock this standard right after proposing your own equally arbitrary
(and stupid) standard.
How about this standard... a spinner needs to win the TdF 7 straight
times. Then he's no longer a Walter Mitty.
--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu
Everyone confesses that exertion which brings out all the powers of body
and mind is the best thing for us; but most people do all they can to
get rid of it, and as a general rule nobody does much more than
circumstances drive them to do. -Harriet Beecher Stowe, abolitionist and
novelist (1811-1896)
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Date: 01 Jun 2007 16:24:58
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
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<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org > wrote in message
news:46609bdb$0$14125$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Dave Usenet writes:
>
>>> There are advantages to spinning, but it's actually riders with Walter
>>> Mitty fantasies who insist on 90 to 100 rpm--ordinary riders who
>>> haven't been told that they must spin will naturally cruise around at
>>> lower cadences.
>
>> That's a really annoying attitude -- if you spin, you must be a
>> Walter Mitty. I spin because I tried it and I like it.
>
> I've never seen anyone spin up Sonora Pass, Monitor, Ebbetts, or
> Pacific Grade although I've seen a lot of spinners on these rides. Of
> course they ask if I am training for "The Death Ride". No! I'm out
> enjoying the Sierra in spring. Why would anyone train for a supported
> tour designed to be artificially difficult. Maybe it's the jersey
> that you wear the rest of your life that says in bright colors:
>
> "I survived the Markleeville Death Ride".
>
> https://www.deathride.com/store/show_product_pp.php?p_id=C037&cat_id=4
> https://www.deathride.com/store/show_product_pp.php?p_id=C071&cat_id=7
You always rag on the Death Ride! I did it a few times and thought it was a
kick in the ass. I didn't train because it came in the middle of racing
season, except that I got up there a few days early to acclimate to the
altitude and heat. Sometimes its fun climbing around in the Sierra with a
few thousand riders and NO CARS.
BTW, some people train for the ride simply to be fast enough to not get
bumped off the course when it closes. It may be supported, but it is time
limited -- and there is no broom wagon that I know of. I don't think these
people want to be stuck on a pass when the cars come, or the sun goes down.
Other people train so they can kick ass and post good personal times, which
is entirely up to them.
I was touring through Markleeville many years ago on my way to Tahoe and ran
in to the same questions as you -- except they were more stupid because it
was obvious that I was not training for anything, being that I had a full
compliment of panniers. Nonetheless, I don't begrudge anyone training for
the ride or being proud that they finished it. It's not like going to war
or anything, but for those folks who don't spend all their time on bikes,
more power to them. -- Jay Beattie.
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Date: 01 Jun 2007 22:08:42
From:
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
Dave Usenet writes:
>> There are advantages to spinning, but it's actually riders with Walter
>> Mitty fantasies who insist on 90 to 100 rpm--ordinary riders who
>> haven't been told that they must spin will naturally cruise around at
>> lower cadences.
> That's a really annoying attitude -- if you spin, you must be a
> Walter Mitty. I spin because I tried it and I like it.
I've never seen anyone spin uo Sonora Pass, Monitor, Ebbetts, or
Pacific Grade although I've seen a lot of spinners on these rides. Of
course they ask if I am training for "The Death Ride". No! I'm out
enjoying the Sierra in spring. Why would anyone train for a supported
tour designed to be artificially difficult. Maybe it's the jersey
that you wear the rest of your life that says in bright colors:
"I survived the Markleeville Death Ride".
https://www.deathride.com/store/show_product_pp.php?p_id=C037&cat_id=4
https://www.deathride.com/store/show_product_pp.php?p_id=C071&cat_id=7
Jobst Brandt
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Date: 01 Jun 2007 13:55:53
From:
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 14:56:02 -0400, dvt <dvt+usenet@psu.edu > wrote:
>carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> There are advantages to spinning, but it's actually riders with Walter
>> Mitty fantasies who insist on 90 to 100 rpm--ordinary riders who
>> haven't been told that they must spin will naturally cruise around at
>> lower cadences.
>
>That's a really annoying attitude -- if you spin, you must be a Walter
>Mitty. I spin because I tried it and I like it.
Dear Dave,
Well, it was probably _intended_ to be a little annoying.
:)
And no one said that Walter Mitty disliked his fantasies.
:)
Those of us who used high gearing because it was there and we hadn't
heard the myth and lore that it's unusable or pretentious are
sometimes a little annoyed by Jobst's self-congratulatory nonsense.
In any case, the vast majority of bicyclists (literally billions of
riders who are utterly unaware of RBT) seem to like plodding along at
what studies suggest is the lower, more efficient RPM. They might like
spinning higher RPM, as you do, but they either aren't interested or
else tried spinning 90 rpm on their daily commute and dismissed it as
a Walter-Mitty-in-spandex fanta--
Er, never mind.
:)
Anyway, did you find anything annoying about Jobst's claim?
"Gotta have that 53t-11t ratio even though it can only be used on
descents where coasting is faster or with a great tailwind where a
smaller gear would do better."
It sounds like myth and lore to me. After all, I use my 53x11 every
day on a two-mile 65 mph highway descent, and it's emphatically faster
than coasting.
Why a 52x12 would be better than a 53x11 for going faster with a great
tailwind is a mystery, particularly if you recall Jobst's arguments
that there's no advantage to using lower gears to accelerate from stop
signs.
:)
It's always amusing to hear Jobst, famed for mashing up the Alps in
unusually high gears, denouncing people who mash along the flats in
high gears, just to indulge his usual fantasy that he's right and
someone else is wrong.
:)
Happy spinning!
Lance Legforce's face paled near the end of the Tour de France. Behind
him, the faint pocketa-pocketa-pocketa of Walter Mitty's rear tire
scrubbing was growing louder and faster as Mitty began his famous
finish-line sprint. Legforce desperately threw himself against the
pedals, using every ounce of his drug-soaked strength, but he had
foolishly chosen a 53x11. Even using only one leg, Mitty relentlessly
increased the cadence on his fabled Fury RoadMaster with its trusty
42x16 until he flashed past Legstrong to take the yellow jersey.
Slow-motion cameras revealed that Legstrong's sluggishly overgeared
119 rpm and 44.9 mph had been bested by Mitty's 45.0 mph at 219
smoothly pedalled rpm. "All that counts is cadence," Mitty explained
later at the press conference. "With any known make of highwheeler, I
could have done the same thing. But the UCI," Mitty added ruefully,
"insists on chains and sprockets."
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/6821/thurber.html
Cheerio,
Dr. Benbow
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Date: 01 Jun 2007 17:59:54
From: dvt
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
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carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> Anyway, did you find anything annoying about Jobst's claim?
>
> "Gotta have that 53t-11t ratio even though it can only be used on
> descents where coasting is faster or with a great tailwind where a
> smaller gear would do better."
Yes. But I've gotten used to being annoyed by Jobst. :^)
> Lance Legforce's face paled near the end of the Tour de France. Behind
> him, the faint pocketa-pocketa-pocketa of Walter Mitty's rear tire
> scrubbing was growing louder and faster as Mitty began his famous
> finish-line sprint. Legforce desperately threw himself against the
> pedals, using every ounce of his drug-soaked strength, but he had
> foolishly chosen a 53x11. Even using only one leg, Mitty relentlessly
> increased the cadence on his fabled Fury RoadMaster with its trusty
> 42x16 until he flashed past Legstrong to take the yellow jersey.
> Slow-motion cameras revealed that Legstrong's sluggishly overgeared
> 119 rpm and 44.9 mph had been bested by Mitty's 45.0 mph at 219
> smoothly pedalled rpm. "All that counts is cadence," Mitty explained
> later at the press conference. "With any known make of highwheeler, I
> could have done the same thing. But the UCI," Mitty added ruefully,
> "insists on chains and sprockets."
Another :^). But is it Lance Legforce or Lance Legstrong?
--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu
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Date: 01 Jun 2007 17:47:49
From:
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:59:54 -0400, dvt <dvt+usenet@psu.edu > wrote:
>carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> Anyway, did you find anything annoying about Jobst's claim?
>>
>> "Gotta have that 53t-11t ratio even though it can only be used on
>> descents where coasting is faster or with a great tailwind where a
>> smaller gear would do better."
>
>Yes. But I've gotten used to being annoyed by Jobst. :^)
>
>> Lance Legforce's face paled near the end of the Tour de France. Behind
>> him, the faint pocketa-pocketa-pocketa of Walter Mitty's rear tire
>> scrubbing was growing louder and faster as Mitty began his famous
>> finish-line sprint. Legforce desperately threw himself against the
>> pedals, using every ounce of his drug-soaked strength, but he had
>> foolishly chosen a 53x11. Even using only one leg, Mitty relentlessly
>> increased the cadence on his fabled Fury RoadMaster with its trusty
>> 42x16 until he flashed past Legstrong to take the yellow jersey.
>> Slow-motion cameras revealed that Legstrong's sluggishly overgeared
>> 119 rpm and 44.9 mph had been bested by Mitty's 45.0 mph at 219
>> smoothly pedalled rpm. "All that counts is cadence," Mitty explained
>> later at the press conference. "With any known make of highwheeler, I
>> could have done the same thing. But the UCI," Mitty added ruefully,
>> "insists on chains and sprockets."
>
>Another :^). But is it Lance Legforce or Lance Legstrong?
Dear Dave,
Fickle cycling celebrities are notorious for changing their names,
even in mid paragraph.
"Lance Armstrong" (real name Horace Gubbins) may have obvious
porn-star fantasies, but at least he resisted absurd spellings, unlike
"Eddy Merckx" (real name Edward Marks), and homespun-sounding
pseudonyms intended to engender trust, like "Floyd Landis" (real name,
Florio "The Don" Corleone).
Cheers,
Karl Fogle
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Date: 02 Jun 2007 02:53:53
From:
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
Carl Fogel writes:
>>> Anyway, did you find anything annoying about Jobst's claim?
>>> "Gotta have that 53t-11t ratio even though it can only be used on
>>> descents where coasting is faster or with a great tailwind where a
>>> smaller gear would do better."
>> Yes. But I've gotten used to being annoyed by Jobst. :^)
>>> Lance Legforce's face paled near the end of the Tour de
>>> France. Behind him, the faint pocketa-pocketa-pocketa of Walter
>>> Mitty's rear tire scrubbing was growing louder and faster as Mitty
>>> began his famous finish-line sprint. Legforce desperately threw
>>> himself against the pedals, using every ounce of his drug-soaked
>>> strength, but he had foolishly chosen a 53x11. Even using only one
>>> leg, Mitty relentlessly increased the cadence on his fabled Fury
>>> RoadMaster with its trusty 42x16 until he flashed past Legstrong
>>> to take the yellow jersey. Slow-motion cameras revealed that
>>> Legstrong's sluggishly overgeared 119 rpm and 44.9 mph had been
>>> bested by Mitty's 45.0 mph at 219 smoothly pedalled rpm. "All that
>>> counts is cadence," Mitty explained later at the press
>>> conference. "With any known make of highwheeler, I could have done
>>> the same thing. But the UCI," Mitty added ruefully, "insists on
>>> chains and sprockets."
>> Another :^). But is it Lance Legforce or Lance Legstrong?
> Fickle cycling celebrities are notorious for changing their names,
> even in mid paragraph.
> "Lance Armstrong" (real name Horace Gubbins) may have obvious
> porn-star fantasies, but at least he resisted absurd spellings,
> unlike "Eddy Merckx" (real name Edward Marks), and homespun-sounding
> pseudonyms intended to engender trust, like "Floyd Landis" (real
> name, Florio "The Don" Corleone).
ckx is a common spelling in the and Belgium and Netherlands I think he
wanted it to have a home brewed appearance. Like the Swiss using Egg
instead of Eck as in Steinegger and R=C3=BCegg instead of R=C3=BCeck.
http://www.fredyruegg.ch/FuerSie.htm
> Karl Vogle
if you want to look more like the source of such a name. The
Tschermans spell "bird" Vogel pronouced fogel.
Jobst Brandt
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Date: 01 Jun 2007 11:25:49
From: Helmut Springer
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
David L. Johnson <david.johnson@lehigh.edu > wrote:
> I bet, though, that the reason is to allow a smaller-diameter
> freehub, to allow a smaller sprocket.
I'd assume that switching to an aluminium freehub body required
deeper splines to bear the load from the sprockets, thus smaller
inner-diameter.
--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer
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Date: 01 Jun 2007 05:06:05
From: Steve Gravrock
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
|
On 2007-06-01, David L. Johnson <david.johnson@lehigh.edu > wrote:
> russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On May 31, 5:35 pm, Thomas Hood <thomas.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> http://tinyurl.com/3792pk
>>>
>>> Note the right-hand cone appears to be inboard, like Campag hubs.
[...]
> I bet, though, that the reason is to allow a smaller-diameter freehub,
> to allow a smaller sprocket.
That's possible, but only if the right side locknut is smaller in
diameter than usual. Otherwise, you'd need just as big an opening in
the freehub body as with the usual Shimano design.
All questions of strength aside, it looks like the freehub body would
have to come off in order to service the bearings. That does seem like
a step backwards.
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Date: 01 Jun 2007 12:42:52
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
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>>>Thomas Hood <thomas.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/3792pk
>>>> Note the right-hand cone appears to be inboard, like Campag hubs.
> David L. Johnson <david.johnson@lehigh.edu> wrote:
>> I bet, though, that the reason is to allow a smaller-diameter freehub,
>> to allow a smaller sprocket.
Steve Gravrock wrote:
> That's possible, but only if the right side locknut is smaller in
> diameter than usual. Otherwise, you'd need just as big an opening in
> the freehub body as with the usual Shimano design.
>
> All questions of strength aside, it looks like the freehub body would
> have to come off in order to service the bearings. That does seem like
> a step backwards.
Backwards? I have no opinion on this but the Campagnolo design allows a
much larger and stronger ratcheting mechanism than other smallish
cassette body designs. Disassembly and service of their system is, if
anything, faster and easier than most hubs, certainly not an 'issue'.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 01 Jun 2007 21:50:49
From:
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
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Andrew Muzi writes:
http://tinyurl.com/3792pk
>>>> Note the right-hand cone appears to be inboard, like Campagnolo
>>>> hubs.
>>> I bet, though, that the reason is to allow a smaller-diameter
>>> freehub, to allow a smaller sprocket.
>> That's possible, but only if the right side locknut is smaller in
>> diameter than usual. Otherwise, you'd need just as big an opening
>> in the freehub body as with the usual Shimano design.
>> All questions of strength aside, it looks like the freehub body
>> would have to come off in order to service the bearings. That does
>> seem like a step backwards.
> Backward? I have no opinion on this but the Campagnolo design
> allows a much larger and stronger ratchet than smaller cassette body
> designs. Disassembly and service of these is, if anything, faster
> and easier than most hubs, certainly not an 'issue'.
That depends on whether you put the cart before the horse. If you
can't design a ratchet that will take the torque, get out of the
business. As I said, I recently changed to Shimano 7-speed freehubs
with outside bearings because I had the second dropout crack in
half, my fourth dropout repair and I've had enough!
I just rode over Ebbetts, Monitor, and Sonora (26% max) grade and had
no worry about ratchet failure or dropout cracks. The problem with
ratchets is that most of the designing people, cannot see that
elastically, one pawl carries the entire load at some point of
rotation. Instead they double-up or triple the engagement and still
have failures because only one pawl is working at some point.
Look at the Hugi (DT) freewheel with the loudest face spline
imaginable. It suffers from the same problem because the axes of the
two halves are skewed by axle bending that is maximum at that point.
Jobst Brandt
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Date: 02 Jun 2007 12:12:52
From: Patrick Lamb
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
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On 01 Jun 2007 21:50:49 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>That depends on whether you put the cart before the horse. If you
>can't design a ratchet that will take the torque, get out of the
>business. As I said, I recently changed to Shimano 7-speed freehubs
>with outside bearings because I had the second dropout crack in
>half, my fourth dropout repair and I've had enough!
Uhh, say what? I must have missed how a freehub cracks the dropout.
Care to elaborate?
Pat
Email address works as is.
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Date: 04 Jun 2007 17:13:29
From:
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
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Patrick Lamb writes:
>> That depends on whether you put the cart before the horse. If you
>> can't design a ratchet that will take the torque, get out of the
>> business. As I said, I recently changed to Shimano 7-speed
>> freehubs with outside bearings because I had the second dropout
>> crack in half, my fourth dropout repair and I've had enough!
> Uhh, say what? I must have missed how a freehub cracks the dropout.
> Care to elaborate?
You must have stepped into this at a later date. The issue is whether
the hub has its axle bearings are next to the dropout or inboard,
classically as old Campagnolo Record (freewheel) hubs did with more
than an inch of axle overhang, that with an threaded axle of 9.35mm
diameter before rolling the thread.
Shimano 7-speed hubs have bearings at the outside end of the
hub/cassette. That is the issue. The other item is that hub
manufacturers don't seem to understand the cause of ratchet failures,
much like Shimano not understanding why Octalink cranks fail in the
splines.
Jobst Brandt
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Date: 02 Jun 2007 19:21:57
From: Ted Bennett
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
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Patrick Lamb wrote:
> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> >That depends on whether you put the cart before the horse. If you
> >can't design a ratchet that will take the torque, get out of the
> >business. As I said, I recently changed to Shimano 7-speed freehubs
> >with outside bearings because I had the second dropout crack in
> >half, my fourth dropout repair and I've had enough!
>
> Uhh, say what? I must have missed how a freehub cracks the dropout.
> Care to elaborate?
Read carefully, Pat. He said he changed to freehubs *after* tiring of
dropout cracks, presumably caused by broken axles in frewheel hubs.
Ted
--
Ted Bennett
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Date: 01 Jun 2007 13:04:00
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
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Steve Gravrock wrote:
> All questions of strength aside, it looks like the freehub body would
> have to come off in order to service the bearings. That does seem like
> a step backwards.
That's how you deal with Campy hubs, and it works fairly easily. The
only trick is to keep the pawls held down as you put the freehub back
on, and there is a plastic tool that works well for that.
--
David L. Johnson
Enron's slogan: Respect, Communication, Integrity, and Excellence.
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Date: 01 Jun 2007 20:00:43
From: Lou Holtman
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
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David L. Johnson wrote:
> Steve Gravrock wrote:
>
>> All questions of strength aside, it looks like the freehub body would
>> have to come off in order to service the bearings. That does seem like
>> a step backwards.
>
> That's how you deal with Campy hubs, and it works fairly easily. The
> only trick is to keep the pawls held down as you put the freehub back
> on, and there is a plastic tool that works well for that.
>
Tool? Put the wheel horizontal (resting on the sink ie.), slide the axle
with the freehub body in till the pawls are resting against the hub
flange, strangle the pawls with a piece of package rope, the body pops
in, lift the body a few mm and remove the rope and lower the axle and
freehub body all the way in. Easy and no special tools required.
Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)
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Date: 01 Jun 2007 15:25:05
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
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Lou Holtman wrote:
> Tool? Put the wheel horizontal (resting on the sink ie.), slide the axle
> with the freehub body in till the pawls are resting against the hub
> flange, strangle the pawls with a piece of package rope, the body pops
> in, lift the body a few mm and remove the rope and lower the axle and
> freehub body all the way in. Easy and no special tools required.
Yeah, I used to do it something like that. But the tool makes it
easier, with no incidents of a pawl getting loose. I'm sure that never
happened to you with this method, but it did to me.
--
David L. Johnson
It is a scientifically proven fact that a mid life crisis can only be
cured by something racy and Italian. Bianchis and Colnagos are a lot
cheaper than Maserattis and Ferraris.
-- Glenn Davies
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Date: 31 May 2007 16:35:12
From: bfd
Subject: Re: Shimano's new freehub inboard bearing design -- a backwards step?
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On May 31, 3:35 pm, Thomas Hood <thomas.h...@gmail.com > wrote:
> http://tinyurl.com/3792pk
>
> Note the right-hand cone appears to be inboard, like Campag hubs.
>
> Thoughts?
Yup, a Campy copy. Probably done to get "lighter weight" as the DA 10
rear hub weighs less than the old, and proper, DA 9 model 7700 rear
hub.
Note that this *inboard* trend only appears in the DA 10 model 7800
rear hub. If you want the proper Shimano rear hub, get Ultegra 10 and
lower!
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