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Main
Date: 21 May 2007 23:19:24
From: Ernie
Subject: Token bottom brackets
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I'm looking at these in lieu of Campy Record BB which was not that
highly rated in Roadbikereview. I did do a search of them on this
forum, but that focused more on their carbon stuff. I'm considering
the model with Ti spindles? Are they safe? I know that's an age old
debate, but that was more for pedal spindles. I just want a reliable
smooth BB. Thanks for any input.
Ernie
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Date: 24 May 2007 05:32:52
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: Token bottom brackets
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On May 22, 10:44 am, "rick-pau...@uiowa.edu" <rick-pau...@uiowa.edu >
wrote:
> I did an autopsy on a campy record bb that was trashed. Ti axle,
> aluminum cups, carbon spacer.
BB spindle is steel. Hasn't been a ti BB spindle from Campagnolo for 2
decades.
The bearings were, well totally
> inadequate for the appliation. 2 cartridges on 1 side that had way
> too small balls in them. Maybe 1/8". It was hard to tell since
> everything was ground to metal dust. Both the inside and outside
> races were busted up on all 3 cartridges.
>
> But hey, the ti axle had gouges and wear groves but it's the only part
> that wasn't totally destroyed.
>
> I'd say the probem was making the bb out of too many parts, undersized
> bearings, too many bearings. Hard to beat a standard shimano bb.
I think it was probably a frame BB shell that wasn't faced. 5/32 balls
BTW-
>
> Another problem with this campy and few other bb's is using more than
> 2 bearings. You will get some flex in the axle and trying to flex an
> axle thru multiple bearings puts loads on the bearings they were never
> designed for. A single bearing can handle the anglular changes just
> fine.
>
> Rick
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Date: 22 May 2007 22:07:53
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Token bottom brackets
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On May 22, 7:38 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On May 22, 3:50 pm, "Jay Beattie" <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Donald Gillies" <gill...@cs.ubc.ca> wrote in message
>
> >news:f2vdll$4ju$1@cascade.cs.ubc.ca...
>
> > > We had a discussion on Ti bottom brackets about 1 month ago ( I
> > > initiated the discussion, looking for a reliable Ti bottom bracket .)
>
> > > The result was, "If you value your legs and your life, you'll buy
> > > steel. If you just absoltely positively MUST have a Ti bottom
> > > bracket, the only thing with a shred of reliability and safety margin
> > > will be a Phil Wood. Otherwise, just buy any-old Ti bottom bracket,
> > > like Token, which is on closeout FOR A GOOD REASON, and hey you can
> > > add a Viscount DEATH FORK real cheap and AVA makes cool early 1970's
> > > DEATH STEMS and what about those Weyless DEATH SEAT POSTS to go along
> > > with your BIKE OF DEATH buildup ??"
>
> > > get the message??
>
> > > When a Ti bottom bracket snaps, AND THEY ALL SNAP, you will go down,
> > > and you might just lose a limb or smash your head.
>
> > Well, the Campy titatium BB of long ago was certainly a problem, but I don't
> > think that all modern titanium BBs are death traps. In fact (and this is
> > hard to admit), I have an FSA titanium Isis BB on my racing bike.
>
> The FSA ISIS Titanium BB might well be a case where the bearings
> predecease the spindle - and that ain't testimony in praise of the
> spindle.
I don't have a lot of confidence in FSA components either, and the
design of the BB is sort of odd, but it has been problem free so far.
-- Jay Beattie.
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Date: 22 May 2007 19:38:00
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Token bottom brackets
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On May 22, 3:50 pm, "Jay Beattie" <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
> "Donald Gillies" <gill...@cs.ubc.ca> wrote in message
>
> news:f2vdll$4ju$1@cascade.cs.ubc.ca...
>
>
>
>
>
> > We had a discussion on Ti bottom brackets about 1 month ago ( I
> > initiated the discussion, looking for a reliable Ti bottom bracket .)
>
> > The result was, "If you value your legs and your life, you'll buy
> > steel. If you just absoltely positively MUST have a Ti bottom
> > bracket, the only thing with a shred of reliability and safety margin
> > will be a Phil Wood. Otherwise, just buy any-old Ti bottom bracket,
> > like Token, which is on closeout FOR A GOOD REASON, and hey you can
> > add a Viscount DEATH FORK real cheap and AVA makes cool early 1970's
> > DEATH STEMS and what about those Weyless DEATH SEAT POSTS to go along
> > with your BIKE OF DEATH buildup ??"
>
> > get the message??
>
> > When a Ti bottom bracket snaps, AND THEY ALL SNAP, you will go down,
> > and you might just lose a limb or smash your head.
>
> Well, the Campy titatium BB of long ago was certainly a problem, but I don't
> think that all modern titanium BBs are death traps. In fact (and this is
> hard to admit), I have an FSA titanium Isis BB on my racing bike.
The FSA ISIS Titanium BB might well be a case where the bearings
predecease the spindle - and that ain't testimony in praise of the
spindle.
> It was
> offered to me for basically nothing, so I decided to take a chance. I am
> 215lbs and ride that bike hard, and the BB has not broken. I did break my
> CroMo Look pedal spindle on that bike, but not the Ti BB. Maybe it is a
> matter of time -- who knows, but I do hope that alloying/machining/casting
> has improved over the last 30 years and that new Ti BBs are better than the
> 30-years-ago Ti trash. Moreover, when your BB breaks, it is not a death
> sentence -- not like a broken fork or stem. In my experience (with a PW no
> less!), it was just a call for a ride home. -- Jay Beattie.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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Date: 22 May 2007 11:44:05
From: Donald Gillies
Subject: Re: Token bottom brackets
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We had a discussion on Ti bottom brackets about 1 month ago ( I
initiated the discussion, looking for a reliable Ti bottom bracket .)
The result was, "If you value your legs and your life, you'll buy
steel. If you just absoltely positively MUST have a Ti bottom
bracket, the only thing with a shred of reliability and safety margin
will be a Phil Wood. Otherwise, just buy any-old Ti bottom bracket,
like Token, which is on closeout FOR A GOOD REASON, and hey you can
add a Viscount DEATH FORK real cheap and AVA makes cool early 1970's
DEATH STEMS and what about those Weyless DEATH SEAT POSTS to go along
with your BIKE OF DEATH buildup ??"
get the message??
When a Ti bottom bracket snaps, AND THEY ALL SNAP, you will go down,
and you might just lose a limb or smash your head.
- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA
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Date: 22 May 2007 13:50:26
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Token bottom brackets
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"Donald Gillies" <gillies@cs.ubc.ca > wrote in message
news:f2vdll$4ju$1@cascade.cs.ubc.ca...
> We had a discussion on Ti bottom brackets about 1 month ago ( I
> initiated the discussion, looking for a reliable Ti bottom bracket .)
>
> The result was, "If you value your legs and your life, you'll buy
> steel. If you just absoltely positively MUST have a Ti bottom
> bracket, the only thing with a shred of reliability and safety margin
> will be a Phil Wood. Otherwise, just buy any-old Ti bottom bracket,
> like Token, which is on closeout FOR A GOOD REASON, and hey you can
> add a Viscount DEATH FORK real cheap and AVA makes cool early 1970's
> DEATH STEMS and what about those Weyless DEATH SEAT POSTS to go along
> with your BIKE OF DEATH buildup ??"
>
> get the message??
>
> When a Ti bottom bracket snaps, AND THEY ALL SNAP, you will go down,
> and you might just lose a limb or smash your head.
Well, the Campy titatium BB of long ago was certainly a problem, but I don't
think that all modern titanium BBs are death traps. In fact (and this is
hard to admit), I have an FSA titanium Isis BB on my racing bike. It was
offered to me for basically nothing, so I decided to take a chance. I am
215lbs and ride that bike hard, and the BB has not broken. I did break my
CroMo Look pedal spindle on that bike, but not the Ti BB. Maybe it is a
matter of time -- who knows, but I do hope that alloying/machining/casting
has improved over the last 30 years and that new Ti BBs are better than the
30-years-ago Ti trash. Moreover, when your BB breaks, it is not a death
sentence -- not like a broken fork or stem. In my experience (with a PW no
less!), it was just a call for a ride home. -- Jay Beattie.
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Date: 23 May 2007 07:23:18
From: M-gineering
Subject: Re: Token bottom brackets
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Jay Beattie wrote:
>
> Well, the Campy titatium BB of long ago was certainly a problem, but I don't
> think that all modern titanium BBs are death traps.
All Ti parts which use the classical steel dimensions are an invitation
for trouble. With an oversized ISIS or HollowtechII axle you have the
option of adding material at the inside. So much in fact that Shimano
hopes to get away with an aluminium axle!
--
/Marten
info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl
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Date: 22 May 2007 10:13:15
From: BeeCharmer
Subject: Re: Token bottom brackets
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I've personally trashed two Campy BB's, one Record and one Chorus.
The outer bearing on the driveside ground to little, bitty shards of
metals. Seemed to happen at about 10,000 miles. I'm a big guy and
put out some watts and do lots of sprinting, but I would expect more
from Campy. The last one disintegrated while I was in France with my
family and I discovered just how unpopular Campy stuff is in southern
France.
That said, I shelled out the bucks and got another Chorus BB; I just
couldn't see parting with my beautiful Record carbon CT cranks. They
are works of art.
I'll be pissed again in about 6,800 miles...
chris
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Date: 22 May 2007 10:35:32
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Token bottom brackets
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"BeeCharmer" <csauer@dwci.edu > wrote in message
news:1179853995.073511.148460@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> I've personally trashed two Campy BB's, one Record and one Chorus.
> The outer bearing on the driveside ground to little, bitty shards of
> metals. Seemed to happen at about 10,000 miles. I'm a big guy and
> put out some watts and do lots of sprinting, but I would expect more
> from Campy. The last one disintegrated while I was in France with my
> family and I discovered just how unpopular Campy stuff is in southern
> France.
>
> That said, I shelled out the bucks and got another Chorus BB; I just
> couldn't see parting with my beautiful Record carbon CT cranks. They
> are works of art.
>
> I'll be pissed again in about 6,800 miles...
>
> chris
>
The first thing I did before installing a Record BB carbon for a friend was
to take it apart. Yes, it does come apart and you have access to the
bearings.
That said, I also noticed a minimum amount of grease that was used.
I went down to my LBS, they gave me a grease that was compatible
with the Campagnolo grease (white grease) and I repacked the bearings.
She doesn't ride very often, actually laid off the bike for about 3 months.
When she did start riding again she complained about a clicking sound in
the bb area. I checked if anything was lose, then put the bike on my
stand.
Sure enough a clicking sound, but as I turned the crank, the clicking sound
slowly disappeared, thinking the grease had to circulate. After 3 years, I
checked the bb again, about a 5000 mile check. Sure enough the bb
needed grease again, and hopefully good for another 5000 miles, we'll
see.
-tom
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Date: 22 May 2007 09:44:26
From: rick-paulos@uiowa.edu
Subject: Re: Token bottom brackets
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I did an autopsy on a campy record bb that was trashed. Ti axle,
aluminum cups, carbon spacer. The bearings were, well totally
inadequate for the appliation. 2 cartridges on 1 side that had way
too small balls in them. Maybe 1/8". It was hard to tell since
everything was ground to metal dust. Both the inside and outside
races were busted up on all 3 cartridges.
But hey, the ti axle had gouges and wear groves but it's the only part
that wasn't totally destroyed.
I'd say the probem was making the bb out of too many parts, undersized
bearings, too many bearings. Hard to beat a standard shimano bb.
Another problem with this campy and few other bb's is using more than
2 bearings. You will get some flex in the axle and trying to flex an
axle thru multiple bearings puts loads on the bearings they were never
designed for. A single bearing can handle the anglular changes just
fine.
Rick
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Date: 22 May 2007 11:38:59
From: Donald Gillies
Subject: Re: Token bottom brackets
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"rick-paulos@uiowa.edu" <rick-paulos@uiowa.edu > writes:
>I did an autopsy on a campy record bb that was trashed. Ti axle,
>aluminum cups, carbon spacer.
Uhhhh, the campy record cartridge axle is steel. Now we're wondering
- since you apparently don't remember who was that maker of that BB
that you diagnosed - why should we trust anything ELSE that you wrote
in your message ??
- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA
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Date: 22 May 2007 11:03:00
From: Pikachu
Subject: Re: Token bottom brackets
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In article <1179852266.258693.136170@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com >,
"rick-paulos@uiowa.edu" <rick-paulos@uiowa.edu > wrote:
> I did an autopsy on a campy record bb that was trashed. Ti axle,
> aluminum cups, carbon spacer. The bearings were, well totally
> inadequate for the appliation.
My 12,000+ km on a 2000 Record BB says otherwise. This was not on a
"comfort" bike either, but a training/racing bike that led a hard life.
It's still extremely smooth.
> But hey, the ti axle had gouges and wear groves but it's the only part
> that wasn't totally destroyed.
I am not aware of any Campagnolo Record BB, that has the 3 cartridge
bearings design, having a Ti axle. My understanding is that it's
hollowed (hallowed? :)) steel.
> Another problem with this campy and few other bb's is using more than
> 2 bearings. You will get some flex in the axle and trying to flex an
> axle thru multiple bearings puts loads on the bearings they were never
> designed for. A single bearing can handle the anglular changes just
> fine.
Can you please explain why a two-row bearing arrangement is bad? How
does the flex in the axle put unacceptable loads on the second bearing?
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Date: 22 May 2007 09:25:47
From: bfd
Subject: Re: Token bottom brackets
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On May 22, 7:32 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On May 22, 7:37 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
> > On May 22, 12:19 am, Ernie <bbear...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > I'm looking at these in lieu of Campy Record BB which was not that
> > > highly rated in Roadbikereview. I did do a search of them on this
> > > forum, but that focused more on their carbon stuff. I'm considering
> > > the model with Ti spindles? Are they safe? I know that's an age old
> > > debate, but that was more for pedal spindles. I just want a reliable
> > > smooth BB. Thanks for any input.
>
> > > Ernie
>
> > What's wrong with the 102mm Record BB?
>
> It's dull and boring. Just good design and materials. Nothing exotic
> for a bike rag hack to wax elequent about.
>
> > I have installed many, many,
> > with no problem. Long lasting, smooth...MUST prep the frame tho-face/
> > chase..something I'll bet many of the RBR clones didn't do.
>
> What? You want them to actually work instead of just running their
> mouths? That frame prep stuff is for grunts with dirty hands, not the
> masters of the keyboards.
>
>
>
> > As for a ti BB spindle...BAD idea. Plus, are 'Token' BBs ISO/102mm? Do
> > they have decent bearings or crappy ones?
>
> Bearings? Who cares!?! It's TITANIUM, man!!!!
Man, you guys need to get with it. What the guy really *NEEDS* is
titanium spindle AND CERAMIC BEARINGS!
Its sort of like that old J-in-the-B commercial, "You get rid of that
bun and you got something..."
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Date: 22 May 2007 07:32:09
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Token bottom brackets
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On May 22, 7:37 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com > wrote:
> On May 22, 12:19 am, Ernie <bbear...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm looking at these in lieu of Campy Record BB which was not that
> > highly rated in Roadbikereview. I did do a search of them on this
> > forum, but that focused more on their carbon stuff. I'm considering
> > the model with Ti spindles? Are they safe? I know that's an age old
> > debate, but that was more for pedal spindles. I just want a reliable
> > smooth BB. Thanks for any input.
>
> > Ernie
>
> What's wrong with the 102mm Record BB?
It's dull and boring. Just good design and materials. Nothing exotic
for a bike rag hack to wax elequent about.
> I have installed many, many,
> with no problem. Long lasting, smooth...MUST prep the frame tho-face/
> chase..something I'll bet many of the RBR clones didn't do.
What? You want them to actually work instead of just running their
mouths? That frame prep stuff is for grunts with dirty hands, not the
masters of the keyboards.
>
> As for a ti BB spindle...BAD idea. Plus, are 'Token' BBs ISO/102mm? Do
> they have decent bearings or crappy ones?
Bearings? Who cares!?! It's TITANIUM, man!!!!
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Date: 22 May 2007 11:50:14
From: Donald Gillies
Subject: Re: Token bottom brackets
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Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > writes:
>Bearings? Who cares!?! It's TITANIUM, man!!!!
This is good advice. If you buy a titanium bottom bracket, the
principle advantage is that you really don't have to care about
whether its smooth, or whether the bearings will last. You DON'T care
about the bearings in a Ti bottom bracket because the spindle will
snap LONG BEFORE the bearings COULD POSSIBLY wear out !!
- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA
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Date: 22 May 2007 06:38:38
From: D'ohBoy
Subject: Re: Token bottom brackets
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On May 22, 7:37 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com > wrote:
> On May 22, 12:19 am, Ernie <bbear...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm looking at these in lieu of Campy Record BB which was not that
> > highly rated in Roadbikereview. I did do a search of them on this
> > forum, but that focused more on their carbon stuff. I'm considering
> > the model with Ti spindles? Are they safe? I know that's an age old
> > debate, but that was more for pedal spindles. I just want a reliable
> > smooth BB. Thanks for any input.
>
> > Ernie
>
> What's wrong with the 102mm Record BB? I have installed many, many,
> with no problem. Long lasting, smooth...MUST prep the frame tho-face/
> chase..something I'll bet many of the RBR clones didn't do.
>
> As for a ti BB spindle...BAD idea. Plus, are 'Token' BBs ISO/102mm? Do
> they have decent bearings or crappy ones?
I second Peter's comments; I have three Chorus BB's (which are record
without the carbon) and the oldest of which is 7 years and tens of
thousands of miles and continues to turn smoothly.
Is that reliable and smooth enough for you?
D'ohBoy
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Date: 22 May 2007 20:53:21
From: Morten Reippuert Knudsen
Subject: Re: Token bottom brackets
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D'ohBoy <petengail@yahoo.com > wrote:
> I second Peter's comments; I have three Chorus BB's (which are record
> without the carbon) and the oldest of which is 7 years and tens of
> thousands of miles and continues to turn smoothly.
i've got an 10 year old Chorus BB which i've ridden all year i
northern europe with lots of salty roads in the wintertime. I guess
it must have ridden at least +30000km with no maintanence at all. The
bearrings are still silky smooth and runs perfectly.
My previous bottom brackets since 92 was also the 102mm Record/Chorus
model with 3 bearrings, however those bikes where stolen within a year
or two :-(
IMHO the best BB ever made... and most certainly the one with the best
sealing.
I boughht a new Chorus 07 bike last autum, but the old BB still works
perfectly on the old bike.
my weigt 10 years ago was arround 82kg, today its arround 96kg.
--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk >
Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
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Date: 22 May 2007 05:37:08
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: Token bottom brackets
|
On May 22, 12:19 am, Ernie <bbear...@aol.com > wrote:
> I'm looking at these in lieu of Campy Record BB which was not that
> highly rated in Roadbikereview. I did do a search of them on this
> forum, but that focused more on their carbon stuff. I'm considering
> the model with Ti spindles? Are they safe? I know that's an age old
> debate, but that was more for pedal spindles. I just want a reliable
> smooth BB. Thanks for any input.
>
> Ernie
What's wrong with the 102mm Record BB? I have installed many, many,
with no problem. Long lasting, smooth...MUST prep the frame tho-face/
chase..something I'll bet many of the RBR clones didn't do.
As for a ti BB spindle...BAD idea. Plus, are 'Token' BBs ISO/102mm? Do
they have decent bearings or crappy ones?
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