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Main
Date: 13 Aug 2007 19:36:24
From: Brian Peppers
Subject: Why Steel sucks
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Note these are my personal opinions based on experience and this isn't
meant to be an exhaustive list or something for the FAQ.
1) Steel is /heavy/ - steel is ridiciously heavy
If I want to go pump iron I'll go to the gym, thanks
2) Steel /rusts/
I'm not the kinda guy to wipe down my bike after every ride. I know you
people are out there, and hell, I don't even care if you marry each other.
I'ts just I'm not that kinda guy.
3) Steel is /noodly/
This is the most nebulous of why i think steel sucks so i'm putting it
last, but it's one of the most important. Even when ive had a good steel
frame, there's a definite 'going bad' that starts from day one. Kinda like
with fine cheese, steel just goes bad after awhile, even if it smells the
same.
I know there are other reasons why steel sucks, so please no flippant
replies about what I forgot, okay, This is just from what I know personally
and I tried to keep it to the big 3.
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Date: 16 Aug 2007 19:24:27
From: Donga
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
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On Aug 17, 12:19 pm, Ken Pischko <k...@mts.net > wrote:
> Donga wrote:
> > On Aug 17, 10:44 am, Ken Pischko <k...@mts.net> wrote:
> >>> Ken, you're going a bit off the deep end. Get help.
> >>> Donga
> >> At least you got my name correct. By the way, you moron, what are your
> >> medical qualifications that allow you to make public medical suggestions
> >> without ANY consult??? Or is that your normal modus operandi??
>
> >> Get back to some thread that you are familiar with.... PlayDoh.org perhaps??
>
> > Ken
>
> > No medical degree is required to observe someone yelling abuse - even
> > more cause for concern when the offence is presumed. Do you do that a
> > lot?
>
> > Donga
>
> Presume what you want!! You must be a litigation savvy 'American fool
> who covers their butt with bureaucratic nonsense...
>
> Besides, everyone outside the USA knows that steel is ultimately more
> repairable than anything else. end of discussion of the original
> "concern". Look outside the USA and you MAY see what I mean. Why
> belabour THAT issue?
>
> Move on to another thread, "Buster".
>
> By the way, what medical degree do YOU have to make any prognosis
> without actually observing the patient? Not a very good medical process
> - are you trained to actually make a medical diagnosis? Dr Kildeer??
> Calling Dr. Kildeer.....
>
> Answer the basic question instead of slithering away from it. This world
> has too many BS politicians.
>
> Gotta go and pack or another bicycling trip. I leave here in 13 hours
> and the bike is still not packed ;-)
>
> Ken
Going on your own?
Donga
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Date: 16 Aug 2007 20:01:18
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
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Donga wrote:
> On Aug 17, 12:19 pm, Ken Pischko <k...@mts.net> wrote:
>> Donga wrote:
>>> On Aug 17, 10:44 am, Ken Pischko <k...@mts.net> wrote:
>>>>> Ken, you're going a bit off the deep end. Get help.
>>>>> Donga
>>>> At least you got my name correct. By the way, you moron, what are your
>>>> medical qualifications that allow you to make public medical suggestions
>>>> without ANY consult??? Or is that your normal modus operandi??
>>>> Get back to some thread that you are familiar with.... PlayDoh.org perhaps??
>>> Ken
>>> No medical degree is required to observe someone yelling abuse - even
>>> more cause for concern when the offence is presumed. Do you do that a
>>> lot?
>>> Donga
>> Presume what you want!! You must be a litigation savvy 'American fool
>> who covers their butt with bureaucratic nonsense...
>>
>> Besides, everyone outside the USA knows that steel is ultimately more
>> repairable than anything else. end of discussion of the original
>> "concern". Look outside the USA and you MAY see what I mean. Why
>> belabour THAT issue?
>>
>> Move on to another thread, "Buster".
>>
>> By the way, what medical degree do YOU have to make any prognosis
>> without actually observing the patient? Not a very good medical process
>> - are you trained to actually make a medical diagnosis? Dr Kildeer??
>> Calling Dr. Kildeer.....
>>
>> Answer the basic question instead of slithering away from it. This world
>> has too many BS politicians.
>>
>> Gotta go and pack or another bicycling trip. I leave here in 13 hours
>> and the bike is still not packed ;-)
>>
>> Ken
>
> Going on your own?
>
> Donga
>
lol!!!
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Date: 16 Aug 2007 18:32:03
From: Donga
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
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On Aug 17, 10:44 am, Ken Pischko <k...@mts.net > wrote:
> > Ken, you're going a bit off the deep end. Get help.
>
> > Donga
>
> At least you got my name correct. By the way, you moron, what are your
> medical qualifications that allow you to make public medical suggestions
> without ANY consult??? Or is that your normal modus operandi??
>
> Get back to some thread that you are familiar with.... PlayDoh.org perhaps??
Ken
No medical degree is required to observe someone yelling abuse - even
more cause for concern when the offence is presumed. Do you do that a
lot?
Donga
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 08:30:11
From: Ken Pischko
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
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Donga wrote:
> No medical degree is required to observe someone yelling abuse - even
> more cause for concern when the offence is presumed. Do you do that a
> lot?
>
> Donga
>
oh yeah!! And my Dad is BIGGER than your Dad!! So There!! And Phtooey to
you and your ideas too!!
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 06:19:49
From: Ken Pischko
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
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Donga wrote:
> On Aug 17, 10:44 am, Ken Pischko <k...@mts.net> wrote:
>>> Ken, you're going a bit off the deep end. Get help.
>>> Donga
>> At least you got my name correct. By the way, you moron, what are your
>> medical qualifications that allow you to make public medical suggestions
>> without ANY consult??? Or is that your normal modus operandi??
>>
>> Get back to some thread that you are familiar with.... PlayDoh.org perhaps??
>
> Ken
>
> No medical degree is required to observe someone yelling abuse - even
> more cause for concern when the offence is presumed. Do you do that a
> lot?
>
> Donga
>
Presume what you want!! You must be a litigation savvy 'American fool
who covers their butt with bureaucratic nonsense...
Besides, everyone outside the USA knows that steel is ultimately more
repairable than anything else. end of discussion of the original
"concern". Look outside the USA and you MAY see what I mean. Why
belabour THAT issue?
Move on to another thread, "Buster".
By the way, what medical degree do YOU have to make any prognosis
without actually observing the patient? Not a very good medical process
- are you trained to actually make a medical diagnosis? Dr Kildeer??
Calling Dr. Kildeer.....
Answer the basic question instead of slithering away from it. This world
has too many BS politicians.
Gotta go and pack or another bicycling trip. I leave here in 13 hours
and the bike is still not packed ;-)
Ken
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Date: 16 Aug 2007 16:33:19
From: Donga
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
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On Aug 17, 9:24 am, Ken Pischko <k...@mts.net > wrote:
> Donga wrote:
> > On Aug 17, 5:30 am, Ken Pischko <k...@mts.net> wrote:
> >>> Hahaha, you've really travelled where the stories are taller than the
> >>> trees. Great trip!
> >>> Donga
> >> Make sure you have been there before you make such idiotic commentary.
> >> However, I suppose you cannot do anything about your genetic back
> >> ground, can you?
>
> > ??? Take a chill pill Bill - I was laughing with you there - I guess
> > you missed that.
> > As for the last comment, I'll take that as a joke - not the way to
> > repay hospitality, my friend.
>
> > Donga
>
> Joke??? Humour perhaps?????? Define YOUR terms before you use them,
> Buster - and I am NOT referring to my late dog - he had plenty of
> intelligence and was not slithery in his actions either.
>
> Enough!!!
>
> Move on to another thread, Buster....
>
> By the way, you illiterate moron - my name is Ken!!! Read it. Understand
> it!!! Bill, my ass.
Ken, you're going a bit off the deep end. Get help.
Donga
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 04:44:43
From: Ken Pischko
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
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> Ken, you're going a bit off the deep end. Get help.
>
> Donga
>
At least you got my name correct. By the way, you moron, what are your
medical qualifications that allow you to make public medical suggestions
without ANY consult??? Or is that your normal modus operandi??
Get back to some thread that you are familiar with.... PlayDoh.org perhaps??
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Date: 16 Aug 2007 15:14:42
From: Donga
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
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On Aug 17, 5:30 am, Ken Pischko <k...@mts.net > wrote:
> > Hahaha, you've really travelled where the stories are taller than the
> > trees. Great trip!
>
> > Donga
>
> Make sure you have been there before you make such idiotic commentary.
> However, I suppose you cannot do anything about your genetic back
> ground, can you?
??? Take a chill pill Bill - I was laughing with you there - I guess
you missed that.
As for the last comment, I'll take that as a joke - not the way to
repay hospitality, my friend.
Donga
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 03:24:06
From: Ken Pischko
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
Donga wrote:
> On Aug 17, 5:30 am, Ken Pischko <k...@mts.net> wrote:
>>> Hahaha, you've really travelled where the stories are taller than the
>>> trees. Great trip!
>>> Donga
>> Make sure you have been there before you make such idiotic commentary.
>> However, I suppose you cannot do anything about your genetic back
>> ground, can you?
>
> ??? Take a chill pill Bill - I was laughing with you there - I guess
> you missed that.
> As for the last comment, I'll take that as a joke - not the way to
> repay hospitality, my friend.
>
> Donga
>
Joke??? Humour perhaps?????? Define YOUR terms before you use them,
Buster - and I am NOT referring to my late dog - he had plenty of
intelligence and was not slithery in his actions either.
Enough!!!
Move on to another thread, Buster....
By the way, you illiterate moron - my name is Ken!!! Read it. Understand
it!!! Bill, my ass.
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Date: 15 Aug 2007 21:09:34
From: Donga
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
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On Aug 16, 9:19 am, Ken Pischko <k...@mts.net > wrote:
> Donga wrote:
> > Hey Ken, I know you did a fabulous trip around Oz and I enjoyed
> > reading your stories. You would have noticed we got electricity in,
> > shortly before you arrived. We're still struggling with knives and
> > forks though. However, we can weld aluminium, indeed it's a mainstay
> > in the outback (roo bars etc.) and you'll find MIG welders and good
> > skills all over.
>
> The stations not on the grid have their own generators - just like they
> have had since WW II times....
>
> Also re the repair of AL, I did not see that much of it along the
> Savannah Way. Steel/iron was a mainstay. huge Bars and tubing for the
> cattle, never mind the roos ;-) Near Elsey Station in the Roper River
> region of NT I watched drovers "process" about 100 head of cattle after
> they were spotted with a chopper. A part of the steel squeeze chute
> broke and i went with one of the drovers back to the station and brought
> back the welder. The trip took about 1.5 hours there and back. We met a
> couple of vehicles on the highway going there and back so it s not
> exactly populated. A few minutes of welding solved the problem with the
> squeeze gate.
>
> Yes there are skilled welders - a fellow (who was a boiler maker from
> the UK) at a mine tack-welded the BB to the frame after the BB kept
> unscrewing. They didn't know about taking care of Al, though..
>
> Maybe not nice fine stuff, but enough to get you
>
> > home. Or you can always use a bit of fencing wire glued together with
> > wattle gum as a splint.
>
> There were too many bees around to risk getting near the flowering
> wattles. Besides when i needed that gum there were no wattles around.
> they are not exactly as plentiful as some of the BS on this ng.
>
>
>
> > For CF, just pop over to the local airfield if you want to bodgy up a
> > hole - CF is essential for the ultralights.
>
> I was at several aerodromes from the WW II era and there was absolutely
> no service whatsoever... no lights, no fuel,... Mind you in the outback
> they don't use "no steenkin ultralights" - well not that i saw anyways
> in the Gulf region. Maybe in Katherine or Darwin...
>
> > As for Ti, well, who ever needs to fix that?
>
> Ti never breaks?? Imagine that - a metal that won't break. WOW that
> surely is BS!!
>
> Ken
Hahaha, you've really travelled where the stories are taller than the
trees. Great trip!
Donga
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Date: 16 Aug 2007 23:30:24
From: Ken Pischko
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
> Hahaha, you've really travelled where the stories are taller than the
> trees. Great trip!
>
> Donga
>
Make sure you have been there before you make such idiotic commentary.
However, I suppose you cannot do anything about your genetic back
ground, can you?
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Date: 15 Aug 2007 13:18:21
From: Scott G.
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
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He missed the other reasons steel sucks.
Delivery time, fast delivery is 6 months.
Most of the other guys are averaging 3-4 years.
Steel bikes use funny french tire sizes, 650B ??, whats up with that ?
Steel bikes have way too many choices to make, like what size chain
rings you want ?
The bikes at the bike shop all have the same size rings, like g-d and
Shimano intended.
Steel bikes have a thing called "seatpost", can't steel bikes come
with a hacksaw like my new Madone ?
Steel bikes have way too many spokes in their wheels.
Steel bikes don't have any acronyms, how can you have bike without
FACT, ZERTZ, Hollowgram, TCT and OCLV.
Scott G.
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Date: 15 Aug 2007 17:27:53
From: Zog The Undeniable
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
Brian Peppers wrote:
> Note these are my personal opinions based on experience and this isn't
> meant to be an exhaustive list or something for the FAQ.
>
> 1) Steel is /heavy/ - steel is ridiciously heavy
> If I want to go pump iron I'll go to the gym, thanks
>
> 2) Steel /rusts/
> I'm not the kinda guy to wipe down my bike after every ride. I know you
> people are out there, and hell, I don't even care if you marry each other.
> I'ts just I'm not that kinda guy.
>
> 3) Steel is /noodly/
> This is the most nebulous of why i think steel sucks so i'm putting it
> last, but it's one of the most important. Even when ive had a good steel
> frame, there's a definite 'going bad' that starts from day one. Kinda like
> with fine cheese, steel just goes bad after awhile, even if it smells the
> same.
>
> I know there are other reasons why steel sucks, so please no flippant
> replies about what I forgot, okay, This is just from what I know personally
> and I tried to keep it to the big 3.
It's sometimes nice to have a frame that can be easily modified by a
framebuilder. All mine have had some work done on them over the years,
like extra bottle bosses, derailleur hangers or threadless steerers.
And good steel frames are a lot lighter than bad alu ones.
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 23:08:35
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
On Aug 14, 5:12 pm, Paul Myron Hobson <phob...@gatech.edu > wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:55:24 +0400, Ken Pischko <k...@mts.net> wrote:
> >>>> In all honesty, my touring bike is steel and it can be welded anywhere -
> >>>> like in outback Australia - while Al and the other frames will make you
> >>>> take a bus (if you can find one) to a bike shop 600 miles away where you
> >>>> can purchase a new frame..
>
> >> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>
> >>> Are you serious about this being an advantage? Do you tour in remote
> >>> areas and crack frames?
>
> > On Aug 14, 9:19 am, Paul Myron Hobson <phob...@gatech.edu> wrote:
>
> >> Oh god. Not this thread again!
> landotter wrote:
> > Frame material matters little if you carry some baling wire.
>
> Haha. I was referring to this:http://tinyurl.com/24mrkb
>
> 711 posts of Team Productive talking in circles.
Well, the foremost purpose of Usenet is wankery, so I think the group
did it proud! :-D
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 14:48:21
From: Brian Peppers
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 19:36:24 -0800, Brian Peppers wrote:
> Note these are my personal opinions based on experience and this isn't
> meant to be an exhaustive list or something for the FAQ.
>
> 1) Steel is /heavy/ - steel is ridiciously heavy
> If I want to go pump iron I'll go to the gym, thanks
>
> 2) Steel /rusts/
> I'm not the kinda guy to wipe down my bike after every ride. I know you
> people are out there, and hell, I don't even care if you marry each other.
> I'ts just I'm not that kinda guy.
>
> 3) Steel is /noodly/
> This is the most nebulous of why i think steel sucks so i'm putting it
> last, but it's one of the most important. Even when ive had a good steel
> frame, there's a definite 'going bad' that starts from day one. Kinda like
> with fine cheese, steel just goes bad after awhile, even if it smells the
> same.
>
> I know there are other reasons why steel sucks, so please no flippant
> replies about what I forgot, okay, This is just from what I know personally
> and I tried to keep it to the big 3.
bump
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 21:46:12
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
Brian Peppers wrote:
> Note these are my personal opinions based on experience and this isn't
> meant to be an exhaustive list or something for the FAQ....
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 +10dB
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 08:43:05
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
On Aug 14, 9:19 am, Paul Myron Hobson <phob...@gatech.edu > wrote:
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> > On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:55:24 +0400, Ken Pischko <k...@mts.net> wrote:
>
> >> In all honesty, my touring bike is steel and it can be welded anywhere -
> >> like in outback Australia - while Al and the other frames will make you
> >> take a bus (if you can find one) to a bike shop 600 miles away where you
> >> can purchase a new frame..
>
> > Are you serious about this being an advantage? Do you tour in remote
> > areas and crack frames?
>
> Oh god. Not this thread again!
Frame material matters little if you carry some baling wire.
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 18:12:58
From: Paul Myron Hobson
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
>>> On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:55:24 +0400, Ken Pischko <k...@mts.net> wrote:
>>>> In all honesty, my touring bike is steel and it can be welded anywhere -
>>>> like in outback Australia - while Al and the other frames will make you
>>>> take a bus (if you can find one) to a bike shop 600 miles away where you
>>>> can purchase a new frame..
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>> Are you serious about this being an advantage? Do you tour in remote
>>> areas and crack frames?
> On Aug 14, 9:19 am, Paul Myron Hobson <phob...@gatech.edu> wrote:
>> Oh god. Not this thread again!
landotter wrote:
> Frame material matters little if you carry some baling wire.
>
Haha. I was referring to this: http://tinyurl.com/24mrkb
711 posts of Team Productive talking in circles.
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 22:15:40
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
Paul Myron Hobson wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:55:24 +0400, Ken Pischko <k...@mts.net> wrote:
>>>>> In all honesty, my touring bike is steel and it can be welded
>>>>> anywhere -
>>>>> like in outback Australia - while Al and the other frames will make
>>>>> you
>>>>> take a bus (if you can find one) to a bike shop 600 miles away
>>>>> where you
>>>>> can purchase a new frame..
>
> >> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>> Are you serious about this being an advantage? Do you tour in remote
>>>> areas and crack frames?
>
> > On Aug 14, 9:19 am, Paul Myron Hobson <phob...@gatech.edu> wrote:
>>> Oh god. Not this thread again!
>
> landotter wrote:
>> Frame material matters little if you carry some baling wire.
>>
>
> Haha. I was referring to this: http://tinyurl.com/24mrkb
>
> 711 posts of Team Productive talking in circles.
Hey, I participated in that discussion! ;)
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 07:26:26
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 19:36:24 -0800, Brian Peppers <bpepp74@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>Note these are my personal opinions based on experience and this isn't
>meant to be an exhaustive list or something for the FAQ.
>
>1) Steel is /heavy/ - steel is ridiciously heavy
>If I want to go pump iron I'll go to the gym, thanks
>
>2) Steel /rusts/
>I'm not the kinda guy to wipe down my bike after every ride. I know you
>people are out there, and hell, I don't even care if you marry each other.
>I'ts just I'm not that kinda guy.
>
>3) Steel is /noodly/
>This is the most nebulous of why i think steel sucks so i'm putting it
>last, but it's one of the most important. Even when ive had a good steel
>frame, there's a definite 'going bad' that starts from day one. Kinda like
>with fine cheese, steel just goes bad after awhile, even if it smells the
>same.
I'll give you a two out of 10 on the troll rating, since the trolling
is so obvious it gets suckers like me to respond that you're a troll.
You're a troll.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 06:20:21
From: catzz66
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
Brian Peppers wrote:
> Note these are my personal opinions based on experience and this isn't
> meant to be an exhaustive list or something for the FAQ.
>
>
Oh, please don't tell my wife any of this. She loves her old steel step
through forest green Specialized Rockhopper. With new tires and a
little TLC, it rides like a dream, she says. I can't bring myself to
tell her how obsolete it is. =] She keeps it in the den, so the rust is
no problem. =]
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 03:35:01
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
On Aug 13, 10:24 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Aug 13, 10:18 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
>
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Aug 13, 9:54 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
> > > Brian Peppers wrote:
> > > > Note these are my personal opinions based on experience and this isn't
> > > > meant to be an exhaustive list or something for the FAQ.
>
> > > > 1) Steel is /heavy/ - steel is ridiciously heavy
> > > > If I want to go pump iron I'll go to the gym, thanks
>
> > > > 2) Steel /rusts/
> > > > I'm not the kinda guy to wipe down my bike after every ride. I know you
> > > > people are out there, and hell, I don't even care if you marry each other.
> > > > I'ts just I'm not that kinda guy.
>
> > > > 3) Steel is /noodly/
> > > > This is the most nebulous of why i think steel sucks so i'm putting it
> > > > last, but it's one of the most important. Even when ive had a good steel
> > > > frame, there's a definite 'going bad' that starts from day one. Kinda like
> > > > with fine cheese, steel just goes bad after awhile, even if it smells the
> > > > same.
>
> > > > I know there are other reasons why steel sucks, so please no flippant
> > > > replies about what I forgot, okay, This is just from what I know personally
> > > > and I tried to keep it to the big 3.
>
> > > cT = 1.0
>
> > Is that an even higher score than a "9.95 on the Troll-o-Meter" ?
>
> My slide rule converter only gives a 3.5. It's just not edgy enough
> trolling for my taste.
We are talking about different aspects. I'm talking total troll
*quantity*, and you are looking at troll quality. IMO, the OP put up a
pure troll, but not a very good one. So, we're both right! :)
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Date: 14 Aug 2007 02:38:13
From: Donga
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
On Aug 14, 2:55 pm, Ken Pischko <k...@mts.net > wrote:
> Brian Peppers wrote:
> > Note these are my personal opinions based on experience and this isn't
> > meant to be an exhaustive list or something for the FAQ.
>
> > 1) Steel is /heavy/ - steel is ridiciously heavy
> > If I want to go pump iron I'll go to the gym, thanks
>
> > 2) Steel /rusts/
> > I'm not the kinda guy to wipe down my bike after every ride. I know you
> > people are out there, and hell, I don't even care if you marry each other.
> > I'ts just I'm not that kinda guy.
>
> > 3) Steel is /noodly/
> > This is the most nebulous of why i think steel sucks so i'm putting it
> > last, but it's one of the most important. Even when ive had a good steel
> > frame, there's a definite 'going bad' that starts from day one. Kinda like
> > with fine cheese, steel just goes bad after awhile, even if it smells the
> > same.
>
> > I know there are other reasons why steel sucks, so please no flippant
> > replies about what I forgot, okay, This is just from what I know personally
> > and I tried to keep it to the big 3.
>
> And worst of all - your tongue freezes and sticks to it when you lick
> the frame in the winter. Ouch!!
>
> In all honesty, my touring bike is steel and it can be welded anywhere -
> like in outback Australia - while Al and the other frames will make you
> take a bus (if you can find one) to a bike shop 600 miles away where you
> can purchase a new frame..
>
> Steel works anywhere. fancy stuff is NOT fixable anywhere.
>
> I rest my case.
>
> Ken, Canada
Hey Ken, I know you did a fabulous trip around Oz and I enjoyed
reading your stories. You would have noticed we got electricity in,
shortly before you arrived. We're still struggling with knives and
forks though. However, we can weld aluminium, indeed it's a mainstay
in the outback (roo bars etc.) and you'll find MIG welders and good
skills all over. Maybe not nice fine stuff, but enough to get you
home. Or you can always use a bit of fencing wire glued together with
wattle gum as a splint.
For CF, just pop over to the local airfield if you want to bodgy up a
hole - CF is essential for the ultralights.
As for Ti, well, who ever needs to fix that?
Donga ;-)
|
| | |
Date: 16 Aug 2007 03:19:06
From: Ken Pischko
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
Donga wrote:
> Hey Ken, I know you did a fabulous trip around Oz and I enjoyed
> reading your stories. You would have noticed we got electricity in,
> shortly before you arrived. We're still struggling with knives and
> forks though. However, we can weld aluminium, indeed it's a mainstay
> in the outback (roo bars etc.) and you'll find MIG welders and good
> skills all over.
The stations not on the grid have their own generators - just like they
have had since WW II times....
Also re the repair of AL, I did not see that much of it along the
Savannah Way. Steel/iron was a mainstay. huge Bars and tubing for the
cattle, never mind the roos ;-) Near Elsey Station in the Roper River
region of NT I watched drovers "process" about 100 head of cattle after
they were spotted with a chopper. A part of the steel squeeze chute
broke and i went with one of the drovers back to the station and brought
back the welder. The trip took about 1.5 hours there and back. We met a
couple of vehicles on the highway going there and back so it s not
exactly populated. A few minutes of welding solved the problem with the
squeeze gate.
Yes there are skilled welders - a fellow (who was a boiler maker from
the UK) at a mine tack-welded the BB to the frame after the BB kept
unscrewing. They didn't know about taking care of Al, though..
Maybe not nice fine stuff, but enough to get you
> home. Or you can always use a bit of fencing wire glued together with
> wattle gum as a splint.
There were too many bees around to risk getting near the flowering
wattles. Besides when i needed that gum there were no wattles around.
they are not exactly as plentiful as some of the BS on this ng.
>
> For CF, just pop over to the local airfield if you want to bodgy up a
> hole - CF is essential for the ultralights.
I was at several aerodromes from the WW II era and there was absolutely
no service whatsoever... no lights, no fuel,... Mind you in the outback
they don't use "no steenkin ultralights" - well not that i saw anyways
in the Gulf region. Maybe in Katherine or Darwin...
>
> As for Ti, well, who ever needs to fix that?
>
Ti never breaks?? Imagine that - a metal that won't break. WOW that
surely is BS!!
Ken
|
| | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 20:28:40
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
Donga wrote:
> On Aug 14, 2:55 pm, Ken Pischko <k...@mts.net> wrote:
>> Brian Peppers wrote:
>>> Note these are my personal opinions based on experience and this isn't
>>> meant to be an exhaustive list or something for the FAQ.
>>> 1) Steel is /heavy/ - steel is ridiciously heavy
>>> If I want to go pump iron I'll go to the gym, thanks
>>> 2) Steel /rusts/
>>> I'm not the kinda guy to wipe down my bike after every ride. I know you
>>> people are out there, and hell, I don't even care if you marry each other.
>>> I'ts just I'm not that kinda guy.
>>> 3) Steel is /noodly/
>>> This is the most nebulous of why i think steel sucks so i'm putting it
>>> last, but it's one of the most important. Even when ive had a good steel
>>> frame, there's a definite 'going bad' that starts from day one. Kinda like
>>> with fine cheese, steel just goes bad after awhile, even if it smells the
>>> same.
>>> I know there are other reasons why steel sucks, so please no flippant
>>> replies about what I forgot, okay, This is just from what I know personally
>>> and I tried to keep it to the big 3.
>> And worst of all - your tongue freezes and sticks to it when you lick
>> the frame in the winter. Ouch!!
>>
>> In all honesty, my touring bike is steel and it can be welded anywhere -
>> like in outback Australia - while Al and the other frames will make you
>> take a bus (if you can find one) to a bike shop 600 miles away where you
>> can purchase a new frame..
>>
>> Steel works anywhere. fancy stuff is NOT fixable anywhere.
>>
>> I rest my case.
>>
>> Ken, Canada
>
> Hey Ken, I know you did a fabulous trip around Oz and I enjoyed
> reading your stories. You would have noticed we got electricity in,
> shortly before you arrived. We're still struggling with knives and
> forks though. However, we can weld aluminium, indeed it's a mainstay
> in the outback (roo bars etc.) and you'll find MIG welders and good
> skills all over. Maybe not nice fine stuff, but enough to get you
> home. Or you can always use a bit of fencing wire glued together with
> wattle gum as a splint.
>
> For CF, just pop over to the local airfield if you want to bodgy up a
> hole - CF is essential for the ultralights.
>
> As for Ti, well, who ever needs to fix that?
>
> Donga ;-)
>
great post!
|
| | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 16:41:14
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
In article
<1187084293.041258.276580@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com >
,
Donga <idomybestworkonabike@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On Aug 14, 2:55 pm, Ken Pischko <k...@mts.net> wrote:
> > Brian Peppers wrote:
> > > Note these are my personal opinions based on experience and this isn't
> > > meant to be an exhaustive list or something for the FAQ.
> >
> > > 1) Steel is /heavy/ - steel is ridiciously heavy
> > > If I want to go pump iron I'll go to the gym, thanks
> >
> > > 2) Steel /rusts/
> > > I'm not the kinda guy to wipe down my bike after every ride. I know you
> > > people are out there, and hell, I don't even care if you marry each other.
> > > I'ts just I'm not that kinda guy.
> >
> > > 3) Steel is /noodly/
> > > This is the most nebulous of why i think steel sucks so i'm putting it
> > > last, but it's one of the most important. Even when ive had a good steel
> > > frame, there's a definite 'going bad' that starts from day one. Kinda like
> > > with fine cheese, steel just goes bad after awhile, even if it smells the
> > > same.
> >
> > > I know there are other reasons why steel sucks, so please no flippant
> > > replies about what I forgot, okay, This is just from what I know personally
> > > and I tried to keep it to the big 3.
> >
> > And worst of all - your tongue freezes and sticks to it when you lick
> > the frame in the winter. Ouch!!
> >
> > In all honesty, my touring bike is steel and it can be welded anywhere -
> > like in outback Australia - while Al and the other frames will make you
> > take a bus (if you can find one) to a bike shop 600 miles away where you
> > can purchase a new frame..
> >
> > Steel works anywhere. fancy stuff is NOT fixable anywhere.
> >
> > I rest my case.
> >
> > Ken, Canada
>
> Hey Ken, I know you did a fabulous trip around Oz and I enjoyed
> reading your stories. You would have noticed we got electricity in,
> shortly before you arrived. We're still struggling with knives and
> forks though. However, we can weld aluminium, indeed it's a mainstay
> in the outback (roo bars etc.) and you'll find MIG welders and good
> skills all over. Maybe not nice fine stuff, but enough to get you
> home. Or you can always use a bit of fencing wire glued together with
> wattle gum as a splint.
Shirley you have JB Weld or the equivalent.
> For CF, just pop over to the local airfield if you want to bodgy up a
> hole - CF is essential for the ultralights.
>
> As for Ti, well, who ever needs to fix that?
>
> Donga ;-)
--
Michael Press
|
| | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 07:30:31
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 02:38:13 -0700, Donga
<idomybestworkonabike@hotmail.com > wrote:
>Hey Ken, I know you did a fabulous trip around Oz and I enjoyed
>reading your stories. You would have noticed we got electricity in,
>shortly before you arrived. We're still struggling with knives and
>forks though. However, we can weld aluminium, indeed it's a mainstay
>in the outback (roo bars etc.) and you'll find MIG welders and good
>skills all over. Maybe not nice fine stuff, but enough to get you
>home.
Hahaha. There goes that old chestnut of being stranded (and dying,
presumably, or at least swallowing one's pride and not cycling home)
with an aluminum frame.
Thanks.
--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 00:18:51
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
In article <noz1msmal5gj.i9mvsd8rpe8e.dlg@40tude.net >,
Brian Peppers <bpepp74@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Note these are my personal opinions based on experience and this
> isn't meant to be an exhaustive list or something for the FAQ.
Here we go again...
> 1) Steel is /heavy/ - steel is ridiciously heavy If I want to go pump
> iron I'll go to the gym, thanks
What weighs more- a pound of steel or a pound of aluminum?
> 2) Steel /rusts/ I'm not the kinda guy to wipe down my bike after
> every ride. I know you people are out there, and hell, I don't even
> care if you marry each other. I'ts just I'm not that kinda guy.
I clean my bikes every couple of years whether they need it or not.
I've never had a problem with steel rusting. I ride only steel framed
bikes- one of which is 11 years old, one of which is 8 years old, one of
which is two years old. Zero rust problems.
> 3) Steel is /noodly/ This is the most nebulous of why i think steel
> sucks so i'm putting it last, but it's one of the most important.
> Even when ive had a good steel frame, there's a definite 'going bad'
> that starts from day one. Kinda like with fine cheese, steel just
> goes bad after awhile, even if it smells the same.
Uh huh. And the metallurgical reason for this is???
> I know there are other reasons why steel sucks, so please no flippant
> replies about what I forgot, okay, This is just from what I know
> personally and I tried to keep it to the big 3.
All three of them were bullshit. Sorry if that was flippant.
|
| | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 08:59:59
From: RBrickston
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
In article <timmcn-7D27E5.00185114082007@news.iphouse.com >,
timmcn@bitstream.net says...
> In article <noz1msmal5gj.i9mvsd8rpe8e.dlg@40tude.net>,
> Brian Peppers <bpepp74@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Note these are my personal opinions based on experience and this
> > isn't meant to be an exhaustive list or something for the FAQ.
>
> Here we go again...
>
> > 1) Steel is /heavy/ - steel is ridiciously heavy If I want to go pump
> > iron I'll go to the gym, thanks
>
> What weighs more- a pound of steel or a pound of aluminum?
>
> > 2) Steel /rusts/ I'm not the kinda guy to wipe down my bike after
> > every ride. I know you people are out there, and hell, I don't even
> > care if you marry each other. I'ts just I'm not that kinda guy.
>
> I clean my bikes every couple of years whether they need it or not.
> I've never had a problem with steel rusting. I ride only steel framed
> bikes- one of which is 11 years old, one of which is 8 years old, one of
> which is two years old. Zero rust problems.
>
> > 3) Steel is /noodly/ This is the most nebulous of why i think steel
> > sucks so i'm putting it last, but it's one of the most important.
> > Even when ive had a good steel frame, there's a definite 'going bad'
> > that starts from day one. Kinda like with fine cheese, steel just
> > goes bad after awhile, even if it smells the same.
>
> Uh huh. And the metallurgical reason for this is???
>
> > I know there are other reasons why steel sucks, so please no flippant
> > replies about what I forgot, okay, This is just from what I know
> > personally and I tried to keep it to the big 3.
>
> All three of them were bullshit. Sorry if that was flippant.
>
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 +10dB
|
| | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 22:17:10
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
RBrickston wrote:
> In article <timmcn-7D27E5.00185114082007@news.iphouse.com>,
> timmcn@bitstream.net says...
>> In article <noz1msmal5gj.i9mvsd8rpe8e.dlg@40tude.net>,
>> Brian Peppers <bpepp74@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Note these are my personal opinions based on experience and this
>>> isn't meant to be an exhaustive list or something for the FAQ.
>> Here we go again...
>>
>>> 1) Steel is /heavy/ - steel is ridiciously heavy If I want to go pump
>>> iron I'll go to the gym, thanks
>> What weighs more- a pound of steel or a pound of aluminum?
>>
>>> 2) Steel /rusts/ I'm not the kinda guy to wipe down my bike after
>>> every ride. I know you people are out there, and hell, I don't even
>>> care if you marry each other. I'ts just I'm not that kinda guy.
>> I clean my bikes every couple of years whether they need it or not.
>> I've never had a problem with steel rusting. I ride only steel framed
>> bikes- one of which is 11 years old, one of which is 8 years old, one of
>> which is two years old. Zero rust problems.
>>
>>> 3) Steel is /noodly/ This is the most nebulous of why i think steel
>>> sucks so i'm putting it last, but it's one of the most important.
>>> Even when ive had a good steel frame, there's a definite 'going bad'
>>> that starts from day one. Kinda like with fine cheese, steel just
>>> goes bad after awhile, even if it smells the same.
>> Uh huh. And the metallurgical reason for this is???
>>
>>> I know there are other reasons why steel sucks, so please no flippant
>>> replies about what I forgot, okay, This is just from what I know
>>> personally and I tried to keep it to the big 3.
>> All three of them were bullshit. Sorry if that was flippant.
>>
>
> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 +10dB
>
|
| | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 13:45:35
From: still me
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:17:10 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote:
>
>Hey Brickston, were you not the guy always replying to Baka?
>
>Where is Baka, anyhow?
He's "O Baka" now and he's busy with a socially and politically
premature campaign for President.
|
| |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 08:55:24
From: Ken Pischko
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
Brian Peppers wrote:
> Note these are my personal opinions based on experience and this isn't
> meant to be an exhaustive list or something for the FAQ.
>
> 1) Steel is /heavy/ - steel is ridiciously heavy
> If I want to go pump iron I'll go to the gym, thanks
>
> 2) Steel /rusts/
> I'm not the kinda guy to wipe down my bike after every ride. I know you
> people are out there, and hell, I don't even care if you marry each other.
> I'ts just I'm not that kinda guy.
>
> 3) Steel is /noodly/
> This is the most nebulous of why i think steel sucks so i'm putting it
> last, but it's one of the most important. Even when ive had a good steel
> frame, there's a definite 'going bad' that starts from day one. Kinda like
> with fine cheese, steel just goes bad after awhile, even if it smells the
> same.
>
> I know there are other reasons why steel sucks, so please no flippant
> replies about what I forgot, okay, This is just from what I know personally
> and I tried to keep it to the big 3.
And worst of all - your tongue freezes and sticks to it when you lick
the frame in the winter. Ouch!!
In all honesty, my touring bike is steel and it can be welded anywhere -
like in outback Australia - while Al and the other frames will make you
take a bus (if you can find one) to a bike shop 600 miles away where you
can purchase a new frame..
Steel works anywhere. fancy stuff is NOT fixable anywhere.
I rest my case.
Ken, Canada
|
| | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 07:27:39
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:55:24 +0400, Ken Pischko <kenp@mts.net > wrote:
>In all honesty, my touring bike is steel and it can be welded anywhere -
>like in outback Australia - while Al and the other frames will make you
>take a bus (if you can find one) to a bike shop 600 miles away where you
>can purchase a new frame..
Are you serious about this being an advantage? Do you tour in remote
areas and crack frames?
--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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|
| | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 10:19:24
From: Paul Myron Hobson
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:55:24 +0400, Ken Pischko <kenp@mts.net> wrote:
>
>> In all honesty, my touring bike is steel and it can be welded anywhere -
>> like in outback Australia - while Al and the other frames will make you
>> take a bus (if you can find one) to a bike shop 600 miles away where you
>> can purchase a new frame..
>
> Are you serious about this being an advantage? Do you tour in remote
> areas and crack frames?
Oh god. Not this thread again!
\\paul
|
| | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 07:27:01
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:55:24 +0400, Ken Pischko <kenp@mts.net > wrote:
>And worst of all - your tongue freezes and sticks to it when you lick
>the frame in the winter. Ouch!!
Hahaha.
--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 03:28:56
From: Ed Pirrero
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
On Aug 13, 8:24 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Aug 13, 10:18 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
>
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Aug 13, 9:54 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
> > > Brian Peppers wrote:
> > > > Note these are my personal opinions based on experience and this isn't
> > > > meant to be an exhaustive list or something for the FAQ.
>
> > > > 1) Steel is /heavy/ - steel is ridiciously heavy
> > > > If I want to go pump iron I'll go to the gym, thanks
>
> > > > 2) Steel /rusts/
> > > > I'm not the kinda guy to wipe down my bike after every ride. I know you
> > > > people are out there, and hell, I don't even care if you marry each other.
> > > > I'ts just I'm not that kinda guy.
>
> > > > 3) Steel is /noodly/
> > > > This is the most nebulous of why i think steel sucks so i'm putting it
> > > > last, but it's one of the most important. Even when ive had a good steel
> > > > frame, there's a definite 'going bad' that starts from day one. Kinda like
> > > > with fine cheese, steel just goes bad after awhile, even if it smells the
> > > > same.
>
> > > > I know there are other reasons why steel sucks, so please no flippant
> > > > replies about what I forgot, okay, This is just from what I know personally
> > > > and I tried to keep it to the big 3.
>
> > > cT = 1.0
>
> > Is that an even higher score than a "9.95 on the Troll-o-Meter" ?
>
> My slide rule converter only gives a 3.5. It's just not edgy enough
> trolling for my taste.
Agreed. Yawns all around are the signs of an obvious and crappy
troll.
E.P.
|
| |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 20:24:53
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
On Aug 13, 10:18 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Aug 13, 9:54 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Brian Peppers wrote:
> > > Note these are my personal opinions based on experience and this isn't
> > > meant to be an exhaustive list or something for the FAQ.
>
> > > 1) Steel is /heavy/ - steel is ridiciously heavy
> > > If I want to go pump iron I'll go to the gym, thanks
>
> > > 2) Steel /rusts/
> > > I'm not the kinda guy to wipe down my bike after every ride. I know you
> > > people are out there, and hell, I don't even care if you marry each other.
> > > I'ts just I'm not that kinda guy.
>
> > > 3) Steel is /noodly/
> > > This is the most nebulous of why i think steel sucks so i'm putting it
> > > last, but it's one of the most important. Even when ive had a good steel
> > > frame, there's a definite 'going bad' that starts from day one. Kinda like
> > > with fine cheese, steel just goes bad after awhile, even if it smells the
> > > same.
>
> > > I know there are other reasons why steel sucks, so please no flippant
> > > replies about what I forgot, okay, This is just from what I know personally
> > > and I tried to keep it to the big 3.
>
> > cT = 1.0
>
> Is that an even higher score than a "9.95 on the Troll-o-Meter" ?
My slide rule converter only gives a 3.5. It's just not edgy enough
trolling for my taste.
|
| |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 20:18:43
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
On Aug 13, 9:54 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net > wrote:
> Brian Peppers wrote:
> > Note these are my personal opinions based on experience and this isn't
> > meant to be an exhaustive list or something for the FAQ.
>
> > 1) Steel is /heavy/ - steel is ridiciously heavy
> > If I want to go pump iron I'll go to the gym, thanks
>
> > 2) Steel /rusts/
> > I'm not the kinda guy to wipe down my bike after every ride. I know you
> > people are out there, and hell, I don't even care if you marry each other.
> > I'ts just I'm not that kinda guy.
>
> > 3) Steel is /noodly/
> > This is the most nebulous of why i think steel sucks so i'm putting it
> > last, but it's one of the most important. Even when ive had a good steel
> > frame, there's a definite 'going bad' that starts from day one. Kinda like
> > with fine cheese, steel just goes bad after awhile, even if it smells the
> > same.
>
> > I know there are other reasons why steel sucks, so please no flippant
> > replies about what I forgot, okay, This is just from what I know personally
> > and I tried to keep it to the big 3.
>
> cT = 1.0
Is that an even higher score than a "9.95 on the Troll-o-Meter" ?
|
| | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 20:26:40
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Aug 13, 9:54 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> Brian Peppers wrote:
>>> Note these are my personal opinions based on experience and this isn't
>>> meant to be an exhaustive list or something for the FAQ.
>>> 1) Steel is /heavy/ - steel is ridiciously heavy
>>> If I want to go pump iron I'll go to the gym, thanks
>>> 2) Steel /rusts/
>>> I'm not the kinda guy to wipe down my bike after every ride. I know you
>>> people are out there, and hell, I don't even care if you marry each other.
>>> I'ts just I'm not that kinda guy.
>>> 3) Steel is /noodly/
>>> This is the most nebulous of why i think steel sucks so i'm putting it
>>> last, but it's one of the most important. Even when ive had a good steel
>>> frame, there's a definite 'going bad' that starts from day one. Kinda like
>>> with fine cheese, steel just goes bad after awhile, even if it smells the
>>> same.
>>> I know there are other reasons why steel sucks, so please no flippant
>>> replies about what I forgot, okay, This is just from what I know personally
>>> and I tried to keep it to the big 3.
>> cT = 1.0
>
> Is that an even higher score than a "9.95 on the Troll-o-Meter" ?
>
yes, a solid 100%.
|
| |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 19:54:19
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Why Steel sucks
|
Brian Peppers wrote:
> Note these are my personal opinions based on experience and this isn't
> meant to be an exhaustive list or something for the FAQ.
>
> 1) Steel is /heavy/ - steel is ridiciously heavy
> If I want to go pump iron I'll go to the gym, thanks
>
> 2) Steel /rusts/
> I'm not the kinda guy to wipe down my bike after every ride. I know you
> people are out there, and hell, I don't even care if you marry each other.
> I'ts just I'm not that kinda guy.
>
> 3) Steel is /noodly/
> This is the most nebulous of why i think steel sucks so i'm putting it
> last, but it's one of the most important. Even when ive had a good steel
> frame, there's a definite 'going bad' that starts from day one. Kinda like
> with fine cheese, steel just goes bad after awhile, even if it smells the
> same.
>
> I know there are other reasons why steel sucks, so please no flippant
> replies about what I forgot, okay, This is just from what I know personally
> and I tried to keep it to the big 3.
cT = 1.0
|
|
