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Main
Date: 12 Aug 2007 18:37:10
From: Colin Campbell
Subject: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
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I have a 2006 Trek 5200 with the Bontrager Race Lite wheels. I upgraded
the componentry to Campy Record, and Trek exchanged the wheels fro
Shimano to Campy compatible at no cost. The wheels are 20 spokes front,
24 rear, and the rear is laced two cross on the drive side, radially on
the non-drive side.
I now have about 8500 km (5300 miles) on the bike. Recently, I noticed
that the rear wheel was a bit out of true. I checked, and one spoke on
the non-drive side was quite loose. I tightened it up to something like
the tension of the other spokes, and rode it some more. The next time I
cleaned the bike, the spoke was loose again. I tightened it again.
When I cleaned the bike on Friday, the spoke was loose again, and again
I tightened it. I rode the bike 67 km on Saturday, and today I checked
the spoke - it seemed a little less tight than the neighboring spokes.
What causes this to happen? Do I need to take it to the shop? The bike
is one year old later this month, by the way.
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Date: 19 Aug 2007 00:39:08
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
On Aug 18, 6:03 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> In article
> <1187384711.495786.88...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
> landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Aug 13, 5:11 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > In article <46bfb5be$0$4857$4c368...@roadrunner.com>,
> > > Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> > > > I have a 2006 Trek 5200 with the Bontrager Race Lite wheels. I upgraded
> > > > the componentry to Campy Record, and Trek exchanged the wheels fro
> > > > Shimano to Campy compatible at no cost. The wheels are 20 spokes front,
> > > > 24 rear, and the rear is laced two cross on the drive side, radially on
> > > > the non-drive side.
>
> > > > I now have about 8500 km (5300 miles) on the bike. Recently, I noticed
> > > > that the rear wheel was a bit out of true. I checked, and one spoke on
> > > > the non-drive side was quite loose. I tightened it up to something like
> > > > the tension of the other spokes, and rode it some more. The next time I
> > > > cleaned the bike, the spoke was loose again. I tightened it again.
> > > > When I cleaned the bike on Friday, the spoke was loose again, and again
> > > > I tightened it. I rode the bike 67 km on Saturday, and today I checked
> > > > the spoke - it seemed a little less tight than the neighboring spokes.
>
> > > > What causes this to happen? Do I need to take it to the shop? The bike
> > > > is one year old later this month, by the way.
>
> > > Is there a flat spot in the rim at the loose spoke? By
> > > flat I mean even a little less round than the rest of
> > > the rim. That would give lower tension on that one
> > > spoke.
>
> > > Another possibility: The threads may have been
> > > originally treated with glue, and the glue on that one
> > > spoke has lost its grip.
>
> > What are folks opinions about using something crochety and old school
> > like boiled linseed oil as a thread "locker"?
>
> Do it if you prefer.
> I prefer to design and build wheels
> that remain true without thread lock compound,
> and succeed.
Heh, I've never had to do much to any wheel I built or tuned either.
Guess I'll keep building 2-3 cross with brass nipples and nothing on
the threads. I don't actually have a problem that needs solving, but
it just sounded so mysterious, like I'd have to grow a nice moustache
first!
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 21:05:11
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
On Aug 13, 5:11 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> In article <46bfb5be$0$4857$4c368...@roadrunner.com>,
> Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I have a 2006 Trek 5200 with the Bontrager Race Lite wheels. I upgraded
> > the componentry to Campy Record, and Trek exchanged the wheels fro
> > Shimano to Campy compatible at no cost. The wheels are 20 spokes front,
> > 24 rear, and the rear is laced two cross on the drive side, radially on
> > the non-drive side.
>
> > I now have about 8500 km (5300 miles) on the bike. Recently, I noticed
> > that the rear wheel was a bit out of true. I checked, and one spoke on
> > the non-drive side was quite loose. I tightened it up to something like
> > the tension of the other spokes, and rode it some more. The next time I
> > cleaned the bike, the spoke was loose again. I tightened it again.
> > When I cleaned the bike on Friday, the spoke was loose again, and again
> > I tightened it. I rode the bike 67 km on Saturday, and today I checked
> > the spoke - it seemed a little less tight than the neighboring spokes.
>
> > What causes this to happen? Do I need to take it to the shop? The bike
> > is one year old later this month, by the way.
>
> Is there a flat spot in the rim at the loose spoke? By
> flat I mean even a little less round than the rest of
> the rim. That would give lower tension on that one
> spoke.
>
> Another possibility: The threads may have been
> originally treated with glue, and the glue on that one
> spoke has lost its grip.
What are folks opinions about using something crochety and old school
like boiled linseed oil as a thread "locker"?
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| | |
Date: 18 Aug 2007 23:03:34
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
In article
<1187384711.495786.88860@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com >,
landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Aug 13, 5:11 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article <46bfb5be$0$4857$4c368...@roadrunner.com>,
> > Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > I have a 2006 Trek 5200 with the Bontrager Race Lite wheels. I upgraded
> > > the componentry to Campy Record, and Trek exchanged the wheels fro
> > > Shimano to Campy compatible at no cost. The wheels are 20 spokes front,
> > > 24 rear, and the rear is laced two cross on the drive side, radially on
> > > the non-drive side.
> >
> > > I now have about 8500 km (5300 miles) on the bike. Recently, I noticed
> > > that the rear wheel was a bit out of true. I checked, and one spoke on
> > > the non-drive side was quite loose. I tightened it up to something like
> > > the tension of the other spokes, and rode it some more. The next time I
> > > cleaned the bike, the spoke was loose again. I tightened it again.
> > > When I cleaned the bike on Friday, the spoke was loose again, and again
> > > I tightened it. I rode the bike 67 km on Saturday, and today I checked
> > > the spoke - it seemed a little less tight than the neighboring spokes.
> >
> > > What causes this to happen? Do I need to take it to the shop? The bike
> > > is one year old later this month, by the way.
> >
> > Is there a flat spot in the rim at the loose spoke? By
> > flat I mean even a little less round than the rest of
> > the rim. That would give lower tension on that one
> > spoke.
> >
> > Another possibility: The threads may have been
> > originally treated with glue, and the glue on that one
> > spoke has lost its grip.
>
> What are folks opinions about using something crochety and old school
> like boiled linseed oil as a thread "locker"?
Do it if you prefer.
I prefer to design and build wheels
that remain true without thread lock compound,
and succeed.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 15 Aug 2007 10:19:30
From:
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
On Aug 13, 9:24 am, Art Harris <n...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Colin Campbell wrote:
> > Luckily, the spokes are flat bladed (which is no doubt
> > why I'm SOOO fast!), so I could check for torsion. I just went out and
> > overtightened the spoke (I think), then loosened it a bit. I did not
> > observe any twisting in the flat portion of the spoke.
>
> If the same spoke is loosening each time, and it's not due to windup,
> and the problem spoke is at the same tension as all the other left
> side spokes, then possibly there's a flat spot on the rim.
>
> Pluck each of the spokes and listen to the pitch. All the spokes on a
> given side should produce the same pitch (indicating equal tension),
> and the wheel should be true and round. If you can't get it true with
> uniform spoke tension, the rim is probably warped or dinged.
He did say, "I tightened it up to something like the tension of the
other spokes, and rode it some more." Now I realize that lacks the
certainty of a precision Jobstian "tension meter", but if he tensions
it to about the same as the other spokes, and the wheel is true, it
follows that there is no flat spot. My advice is to stick some
locktite or something on the spoke and forget about it. If there is a
flat spot, which must be pretty subtle based on the above, my advice
would still be to stick some locktite or something on the spoke and
forget about it, unless you want to rebuild the wheel with a new rim,
which may or may not result in a worse problem depending on the
expertise of the person doing the rebuilding, and will probably set
him back a couple hundred bucks.
It seems entirely possible to me that with a low spoke count and a
marginal spoke tension, spokes could loosen in an undamaged rim. There
could be something about the rim itself (manufacturing variance, rim
joint, or something) that causes it to flatten a little more at that
spot during regular riding, giving it the opportunity to loosen over
time. I think he could either spend a lot of time and money trying to
get the wheel specs and a tensiometer, and then retension the entire
wheel, or he could just put some locktite on it.
Are we sure that those wheels are not built with spoke prep that may
have been missed on that spoke or deteriorated for whatever reason to
where it no longer works there? Just put some locktite on it.
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| | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 13:29:15
From: Colin Campbell
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
SocSecTrainWreck@earthlink.net wrote:
> On Aug 13, 9:24 am, Art Harris <n...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Colin Campbell wrote:
>>> Luckily, the spokes are flat bladed (which is no doubt
>>> why I'm SOOO fast!), so I could check for torsion. I just went out and
>>> overtightened the spoke (I think), then loosened it a bit. I did not
>>> observe any twisting in the flat portion of the spoke.
>> If the same spoke is loosening each time, and it's not due to windup,
>> and the problem spoke is at the same tension as all the other left
>> side spokes, then possibly there's a flat spot on the rim.
>>
>> Pluck each of the spokes and listen to the pitch. All the spokes on a
>> given side should produce the same pitch (indicating equal tension),
>> and the wheel should be true and round. If you can't get it true with
>> uniform spoke tension, the rim is probably warped or dinged.
>
> He did say, "I tightened it up to something like the tension of the
> other spokes, and rode it some more." Now I realize that lacks the
> certainty of a precision Jobstian "tension meter", but if he tensions
> it to about the same as the other spokes, and the wheel is true, it
> follows that there is no flat spot. My advice is to stick some
> locktite or something on the spoke and forget about it. If there is a
> flat spot, which must be pretty subtle based on the above, my advice
> would still be to stick some locktite or something on the spoke and
> forget about it, unless you want to rebuild the wheel with a new rim,
> which may or may not result in a worse problem depending on the
> expertise of the person doing the rebuilding, and will probably set
> him back a couple hundred bucks.
>
> It seems entirely possible to me that with a low spoke count and a
> marginal spoke tension, spokes could loosen in an undamaged rim. There
> could be something about the rim itself (manufacturing variance, rim
> joint, or something) that causes it to flatten a little more at that
> spot during regular riding, giving it the opportunity to loosen over
> time. I think he could either spend a lot of time and money trying to
> get the wheel specs and a tensiometer, and then retension the entire
> wheel, or he could just put some locktite on it.
>
> Are we sure that those wheels are not built with spoke prep that may
> have been missed on that spoke or deteriorated for whatever reason to
> where it no longer works there? Just put some locktite on it.
>
Are you trying to make good sense? <g >
I cannot see a flat spot with visual examination. I'm keeping closer
tabs on the spoke tension, checking after each ride now. I may drop by
the LBS and ask them their opinion, too. Maybe they have some Locktite....
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Date: 15 Aug 2007 12:11:36
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
On Aug 14, 4:25 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> In article <46c0ff4b$0$28678$4c368...@roadrunner.com>,
> Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Andrew Price wrote:
> > > On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 19:09:23 -0700, Colin Campbell
> > > <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> > > [---]
>
> > >> I have lost nearly 10 kg in the past several months
>
> > > That's impressively fast - what was your method?
> > Truthfully, I don't know. I retired in June of 2004, and stepped up my
> > riding from about 7,500 miles to 10,000 miles annually. I go to the gym
> > four afternoons a week, but I had not lost weight, just traded some fat
> > for muscle.
>
> > I started when I learned in mid-March that my high school reunion would
> > be at the end of April. I dropped five pounds by then (about a pound a
> > week). I had been riding every day for 90 days up to late April; then
> > we drove from So Cal to Dallas and back, so I only rode a couple of
> > times for a week. I tried to cut back on desserts, and maybe eat a bit
> > less at each meal.
>
> > When we got back home, I started riding every day again, and continued
> > to lose weight. I got roped in to some long rides - a 70 mile organized
> > fiasco, a ride to San Diego (which actually ended in Solana Beach when
> > we all wanted lunch more than we wanted to climb Torrey Pines), helping
> > friends train for a century that is being held this coming weekend, etc.
> > I did four 300 mile weeks in five (and 290 miles the fifth week).
>
> > I've now ridden 104 consecutive days since May 2. About six weeks ago,
> > the weight loss and an increased regimen of core exercises started
> > showing up in my riding. I could climb better, I could go harder for
> > longer, I could close gaps just by telling my legs to do so. Naturally,
> > this led me to ride even more.
>
> > I find now that my appetite and eating capacity have both decreased.
> > Last week, I couldn't eat all of a breakfast that I've treated myself to
> > for years. I'm generally eating a little better than I used to, less
> > cheese, more bananas, etc.
>
> > So I guess the simple answer is "Ride more, eat less."
>
> Thanks for the lucid account. No overnight change. The
> change is cumulative. Then, overnight, you see the
> change.
Lots of 'us' wish to retire, at least I know I do...I've 'retired'
once from the USN, but into another 'job'..I do wish for days where
the big event is to ride, followed by other things...maybe I'm just
reacting to 'retail', after a long summer....
>
> I too decided to step up (a one inch step) the effort I
> put into riding. After a long while I "suddenly" had a
> lot more that I could easily put into turning the
> cranks.
>
> As to diet, you should never feel deprived. Always
> avail yourself of treats. A treat is not conditional;
> no "earning" a treat.
>
> --
> Michael Press
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| | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 21:01:04
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> ...
> Lots of 'us' wish to retire, at least I know I do...I've 'retired'
> once from the USN, but into another 'job'..I do wish for days where
> the big event is to ride, followed by other things...maybe I'm just
> reacting to 'retail', after a long summer....
That is an un-American attitude. Only those born rich do not need to
work. They are better than the rest of us, since God chose rich parents
for them.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 12:12:44
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
On Aug 13, 7:03 pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net > wrote:
> Andrew Price wrote:
> > On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 19:09:23 -0700, Colin Campbell
> > <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> > [---]
>
> >> I have lost nearly 10 kg in the past several months
>
> > That's impressively fast - what was your method?
>
> Truthfully, I don't know. I retired in June of 2004, and stepped up my
> riding from about 7,500 miles to 10,000 miles annually.
Bing, bing, bing, we have a winner!!!
I go to the gym
> four afternoons a week, but I had not lost weight, just traded some fat
> for muscle.
>
> I started when I learned in mid-March that my high school reunion would
> be at the end of April. I dropped five pounds by then (about a pound a
> week). I had been riding every day for 90 days up to late April; then
> we drove from So Cal to Dallas and back, so I only rode a couple of
> times for a week. I tried to cut back on desserts, and maybe eat a bit
> less at each meal.
>
> When we got back home, I started riding every day again, and continued
> to lose weight. I got roped in to some long rides - a 70 mile organized
> fiasco, a ride to San Diego (which actually ended in Solana Beach when
> we all wanted lunch more than we wanted to climb Torrey Pines), helping
> friends train for a century that is being held this coming weekend, etc.
> I did four 300 mile weeks in five (and 290 miles the fifth week).
>
> I've now ridden 104 consecutive days since May 2. About six weeks ago,
> the weight loss and an increased regimen of core exercises started
> showing up in my riding. I could climb better, I could go harder for
> longer, I could close gaps just by telling my legs to do so. Naturally,
> this led me to ride even more.
>
> I find now that my appetite and eating capacity have both decreased.
> Last week, I couldn't eat all of a breakfast that I've treated myself to
> for years. I'm generally eating a little better than I used to, less
> cheese, more bananas, etc.
>
> So I guess the simple answer is "Ride more, eat less."
|
| |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 15:11:51
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
In article <46bfb5be$0$4857$4c368faf@roadrunner.com >,
Colin Campbell <cmcampb@adelphia.net > wrote:
> I have a 2006 Trek 5200 with the Bontrager Race Lite wheels. I upgraded
> the componentry to Campy Record, and Trek exchanged the wheels fro
> Shimano to Campy compatible at no cost. The wheels are 20 spokes front,
> 24 rear, and the rear is laced two cross on the drive side, radially on
> the non-drive side.
>
> I now have about 8500 km (5300 miles) on the bike. Recently, I noticed
> that the rear wheel was a bit out of true. I checked, and one spoke on
> the non-drive side was quite loose. I tightened it up to something like
> the tension of the other spokes, and rode it some more. The next time I
> cleaned the bike, the spoke was loose again. I tightened it again.
> When I cleaned the bike on Friday, the spoke was loose again, and again
> I tightened it. I rode the bike 67 km on Saturday, and today I checked
> the spoke - it seemed a little less tight than the neighboring spokes.
>
> What causes this to happen? Do I need to take it to the shop? The bike
> is one year old later this month, by the way.
Is there a flat spot in the rim at the loose spoke? By
flat I mean even a little less round than the rest of
the rim. That would give lower tension on that one
spoke.
Another possibility: The threads may have been
originally treated with glue, and the glue on that one
spoke has lost its grip.
--
Michael Press
|
| |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 06:24:31
From: Art Harris
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
Colin Campbell wrote:
> Luckily, the spokes are flat bladed (which is no doubt
> why I'm SOOO fast!), so I could check for torsion. I just went out and
> overtightened the spoke (I think), then loosened it a bit. I did not
> observe any twisting in the flat portion of the spoke.
>
If the same spoke is loosening each time, and it's not due to windup,
and the problem spoke is at the same tension as all the other left
side spokes, then possibly there's a flat spot on the rim.
Pluck each of the spokes and listen to the pitch. All the spokes on a
given side should produce the same pitch (indicating equal tension),
and the wheel should be true and round. If you can't get it true with
uniform spoke tension, the rim is probably warped or dinged.
|
| | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 07:24:07
From: Colin Campbell
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
Art Harris wrote:
> Colin Campbell wrote:
>
>> Luckily, the spokes are flat bladed (which is no doubt
>> why I'm SOOO fast!), so I could check for torsion. I just went out and
>> overtightened the spoke (I think), then loosened it a bit. I did not
>> observe any twisting in the flat portion of the spoke.
>>
>
> If the same spoke is loosening each time, and it's not due to windup,
> and the problem spoke is at the same tension as all the other left
> side spokes, then possibly there's a flat spot on the rim.
>
> Pluck each of the spokes and listen to the pitch. All the spokes on a
> given side should produce the same pitch (indicating equal tension),
> and the wheel should be true and round. If you can't get it true with
> uniform spoke tension, the rim is probably warped or dinged.
>
>
I'll check that out. Thanks!
|
| |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 12:13:08
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
On Aug 12, 7:37 pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net > wrote:
> I have a 2006 Trek 5200 with the Bontrager Race Lite wheels. I upgraded
> the componentry to Campy Record, and Trek exchanged the wheels fro
> Shimano to Campy compatible at no cost. The wheels are 20 spokes front,
> 24 rear, and the rear is laced two cross on the drive side, radially on
> the non-drive side.
>
> I now have about 8500 km (5300 miles) on the bike. Recently, I noticed
> that the rear wheel was a bit out of true. I checked, and one spoke on
> the non-drive side was quite loose. I tightened it up to something like
> the tension of the other spokes, and rode it some more. The next time I
> cleaned the bike, the spoke was loose again. I tightened it again.
> When I cleaned the bike on Friday, the spoke was loose again, and again
> I tightened it. I rode the bike 67 km on Saturday, and today I checked
> the spoke - it seemed a little less tight than the neighboring spokes.
>
> What causes this to happen? Do I need to take it to the shop? The bike
> is one year old later this month, by the way.
Wheel/rim deformed there(bent) and the action of riding causes it to
looen and perhaps to break.
|
| |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 06:58:50
From: mike.a.schwab@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
On Aug 12, 8:47 pm, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net > wrote:
> On Aug 12, 6:37 pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> > I have a 2006 Trek 5200 with the Bontrager Race Lite wheels. I upgraded
> > the componentry to Campy Record, and Trek exchanged the wheels fro
> > Shimano to Campy compatible at no cost. The wheels are 20 spokes front,
> > 24 rear, and the rear is laced two cross on the drive side, radially on
> > the non-drive side.
>
> > I now have about 8500 km (5300 miles) on the bike. Recently, I noticed
> > that the rear wheel was a bit out of true. I checked, and one spoke on
> > the non-drive side was quite loose. I tightened it up to something like
> > the tension of the other spokes, and rode it some more. The next time I
> > cleaned the bike, the spoke was loose again. I tightened it again.
> > When I cleaned the bike on Friday, the spoke was loose again, and again
> > I tightened it. I rode the bike 67 km on Saturday, and today I checked
> > the spoke - it seemed a little less tight than the neighboring spokes.
>
> > What causes this to happen? Do I need to take it to the shop? The bike
> > is one year old later this month, by the way.
>
> It gets loose because, well, it already is loose.
>
> If it's not under sufficient tension, each revolution will cause the
> spoke to go completely slack, and when it's unweighted, the re-
> tensioning is like an impact wrench, pounding the nipple looser and
> looser.
>
> Two main schools of thought here:
>
> 1) have the entire wheel brought up to higher tension. To do that, a
> tensiometer and the manufacturer's spec for the rim are needed, so you
> don't risk damaging the rim.
>
> 2) use a spoke compound, like the DT/Loctite one, or Wheelsmith Spoke
> Prep, to lock the threads in place.
>
> The adherents to each method are zealous in their proclamations that
> the other side is wrong, so prepare for the flame wars to begin.
Another option is to lace the non-drive side in a 0 cross pattern
(radial). Then when the chain pulls the hub, it tightens all the
spokes and does not unload the spokes being pushed.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#half-radial
|
| | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 23:00:55
From: daveornee
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
mike.a.schwab@gmail.com Wrote:
> On Aug 12, 8:47 pm, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
> > On Aug 12, 6:37 pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> >
> > > I have a 2006 Trek 5200 with the Bontrager Race Lite wheels. I
> upgraded
> > > the componentry to Campy Record, and Trek exchanged the wheels fro
> > > Shimano to Campy compatible at no cost. The wheels are 20 spokes
> front,
> > > 24 rear, and the rear is laced two cross on the drive side,
> radially on
> > > the non-drive side.
> >
> > > I now have about 8500 km (5300 miles) on the bike. Recently, I
> noticed
> > > that the rear wheel was a bit out of true. I checked, and one
> spoke on
> > > the non-drive side was quite loose. I tightened it up to something
> like
> > > the tension of the other spokes, and rode it some more. The next
> time I
> > > cleaned the bike, the spoke was loose again. I tightened it
> again.
> > > When I cleaned the bike on Friday, the spoke was loose again, and
> again
> > > I tightened it. I rode the bike 67 km on Saturday, and today I
> checked
> > > the spoke - it seemed a little less tight than the neighboring
> spokes.
> >
> > > What causes this to happen? Do I need to take it to the shop? The
> bike
> > > is one year old later this month, by the way.
> >
> > It gets loose because, well, it already is loose.
> >
> > If it's not under sufficient tension, each revolution will cause the
> > spoke to go completely slack, and when it's unweighted, the re-
> > tensioning is like an impact wrench, pounding the nipple looser and
> > looser.
> >
> > Two main schools of thought here:
> >
> > 1) have the entire wheel brought up to higher tension. To do that, a
> > tensiometer and the manufacturer's spec for the rim are needed, so
> you
> > don't risk damaging the rim.
> >
> > 2) use a spoke compound, like the DT/Loctite one, or Wheelsmith
> Spoke
> > Prep, to lock the threads in place.
> >
> > The adherents to each method are zealous in their proclamations that
> > the other side is wrong, so prepare for the flame wars to begin.
>
> Another option is to lace the non-drive side in a 0 cross pattern
> (radial). Then when the chain pulls the hub, it tightens all the
> spokes and does not unload the spokes being pushed.
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#half-radial
The wheel is already radially laced on the left side.
As Peter said, the wheel may have damage (and/or the nipple thread may
be worn) and this allows the nipple to easily back off when subjected
to dynamic loads of riding.
--
daveornee
|
| |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 21:43:24
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
Colin Campbell wrote:
> I have a 2006 Trek 5200 with the Bontrager Race Lite wheels. I upgraded
> the componentry to Campy Record, and Trek exchanged the wheels fro
> Shimano to Campy compatible at no cost. The wheels are 20 spokes front,
> 24 rear, and the rear is laced two cross on the drive side, radially on
> the non-drive side.
>
> I now have about 8500 km (5300 miles) on the bike. Recently, I noticed
> that the rear wheel was a bit out of true. I checked, and one spoke on
> the non-drive side was quite loose. I tightened it up to something like
> the tension of the other spokes, and rode it some more. The next time I
> cleaned the bike, the spoke was loose again. I tightened it again. When
> I cleaned the bike on Friday, the spoke was loose again, and again I
> tightened it. I rode the bike 67 km on Saturday, and today I checked
> the spoke - it seemed a little less tight than the neighboring spokes.
>
> What causes this to happen? Do I need to take it to the shop? The bike
> is one year old later this month, by the way.
either it's getting unscrewed or something's yielding. leaning another
bike so that a pedal digs a spoke can do the job. likewise rim cracking
or hub hole failure.
suggest you:
1. check componentry
2. apply a little thread locker
3. "stress relieve" to remove all wind-up, and
4. make sure there's no sabotage, inadvertent or otherwise.
|
| |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 19:34:34
From: Nate Knutson
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
On Aug 12, 6:47 pm, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net > wrote:
> On Aug 12, 6:37 pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I have a 2006 Trek 5200 with the Bontrager Race Lite wheels. I upgraded
> > the componentry to Campy Record, and Trek exchanged the wheels fro
> > Shimano to Campy compatible at no cost. The wheels are 20 spokes front,
> > 24 rear, and the rear is laced two cross on the drive side, radially on
> > the non-drive side.
>
> > I now have about 8500 km (5300 miles) on the bike. Recently, I noticed
> > that the rear wheel was a bit out of true. I checked, and one spoke on
> > the non-drive side was quite loose. I tightened it up to something like
> > the tension of the other spokes, and rode it some more. The next time I
> > cleaned the bike, the spoke was loose again. I tightened it again.
> > When I cleaned the bike on Friday, the spoke was loose again, and again
> > I tightened it. I rode the bike 67 km on Saturday, and today I checked
> > the spoke - it seemed a little less tight than the neighboring spokes.
>
> > What causes this to happen? Do I need to take it to the shop? The bike
> > is one year old later this month, by the way.
>
> It gets loose because, well, it already is loose.
>
> If it's not under sufficient tension, each revolution will cause the
> spoke to go completely slack, and when it's unweighted, the re-
> tensioning is like an impact wrench, pounding the nipple looser and
> looser.
>
> Two main schools of thought here:
>
> 1) have the entire wheel brought up to higher tension. To do that, a
> tensiometer and the manufacturer's spec for the rim are needed, so you
> don't risk damaging the rim.
>
> 2) use a spoke compound, like the DT/Loctite one, or Wheelsmith Spoke
> Prep, to lock the threads in place.
>
> The adherents to each method are zealous in their proclamations that
> the other side is wrong, so prepare for the flame wars to begin.
It's one left side spoke on a wheel that's stayed true for a year of
riding. That's not perfect but it's pretty good and not cause to do
anything major. Increasing the whole wheel's tension is only viable if
the rim could take much more tension at all from the right spokes,
which it probably can't given that this is a high-end 24-spoke wheel
that's held together. Thread compound isn't any more necessary than
when the bike was new; the repeated loosenings are almost certainly
due to windup, which can happen even at low tensions if you aren't
watching for it, if there's corrosion, etc.
|
| |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 19:02:27
From: Nate Knutson
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
On Aug 12, 6:37 pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net > wrote:
> I have a 2006 Trek 5200 with the Bontrager Race Lite wheels. I upgraded
> the componentry to Campy Record, and Trek exchanged the wheels fro
> Shimano to Campy compatible at no cost. The wheels are 20 spokes front,
> 24 rear, and the rear is laced two cross on the drive side, radially on
> the non-drive side.
>
> I now have about 8500 km (5300 miles) on the bike. Recently, I noticed
> that the rear wheel was a bit out of true. I checked, and one spoke on
> the non-drive side was quite loose. I tightened it up to something like
> the tension of the other spokes, and rode it some more. The next time I
> cleaned the bike, the spoke was loose again. I tightened it again.
> When I cleaned the bike on Friday, the spoke was loose again, and again
> I tightened it. I rode the bike 67 km on Saturday, and today I checked
> the spoke - it seemed a little less tight than the neighboring spokes.
>
> What causes this to happen? Do I need to take it to the shop? The bike
> is one year old later this month, by the way.
Most commonly what happens is that a spoke nipple can gradually work
it's way looser and looser during moments when forces on the wheel
completely unload the tension on the spoke. Poorly built wheels are
extremely prone to this while well-built ones can be immune or near-
immune to it. Left spokes on typical modern rear derailer wheels are
generally at low tension and prone to loosening like this sometimes;
there are various techniques used to remedy this such as not lubing
those spokes' threads, using a threadlocking compound, offset rims,
etc.
What probably happened in your case is that the spoke initially got
loose for this reason, but now it's winding up (
http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#torsion ) each time you try to
tighten it, which is why it's getting loose again so fast. I would
follow Sheldon's instructions on that link.
|
| | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 22:07:48
From: Colin Campbell
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
Nate Knutson wrote:
> On Aug 12, 6:37 pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>> I have a 2006 Trek 5200 with the Bontrager Race Lite wheels. I upgraded
>> the componentry to Campy Record, and Trek exchanged the wheels fro
>> Shimano to Campy compatible at no cost. The wheels are 20 spokes front,
>> 24 rear, and the rear is laced two cross on the drive side, radially on
>> the non-drive side.
>>
>> I now have about 8500 km (5300 miles) on the bike. Recently, I noticed
>> that the rear wheel was a bit out of true. I checked, and one spoke on
>> the non-drive side was quite loose. I tightened it up to something like
>> the tension of the other spokes, and rode it some more. The next time I
>> cleaned the bike, the spoke was loose again. I tightened it again.
>> When I cleaned the bike on Friday, the spoke was loose again, and again
>> I tightened it. I rode the bike 67 km on Saturday, and today I checked
>> the spoke - it seemed a little less tight than the neighboring spokes.
>>
>> What causes this to happen? Do I need to take it to the shop? The bike
>> is one year old later this month, by the way.
>
> Most commonly what happens is that a spoke nipple can gradually work
> it's way looser and looser during moments when forces on the wheel
> completely unload the tension on the spoke. Poorly built wheels are
> extremely prone to this while well-built ones can be immune or near-
> immune to it. Left spokes on typical modern rear derailer wheels are
> generally at low tension and prone to loosening like this sometimes;
> there are various techniques used to remedy this such as not lubing
> those spokes' threads, using a threadlocking compound, offset rims,
> etc.
>
> What probably happened in your case is that the spoke initially got
> loose for this reason, but now it's winding up (
> http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#torsion ) each time you try to
> tighten it, which is why it's getting loose again so fast. I would
> follow Sheldon's instructions on that link.
>
OK, good point. Luckily, the spokes are flat bladed (which is no doubt
why I'm SOOO fast!), so I could check for torsion. I just went out and
overtightened the spoke (I think), then loosened it a bit. I did not
observe any twisting in the flat portion of the spoke.
I'll see if that helps the spoke stay in place.
|
| |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 18:59:17
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
On Aug 12, 8:47 pm, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net > wrote:
> 2) use a spoke compound, like the DT/Loctite one, or Wheelsmith Spoke
> Prep, to lock the threads in place.
Or some linseed oil, tung oil, or similar if you've got them handy. I
suspect hair gel might even work--but it takes forever to dry. Aqua-
Net for installing grips, of course.
>
> The adherents to each method are zealous in their proclamations that
> the other side is wrong, so prepare for the flame wars to begin.
All I know is that wheels with the tension dialed in on the high side
stay true, regardless of whether ya dip the threads in dippety doo or
nothing at all.
|
| |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 18:47:48
From: Hank Wirtz
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
On Aug 12, 6:37 pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net > wrote:
> I have a 2006 Trek 5200 with the Bontrager Race Lite wheels. I upgraded
> the componentry to Campy Record, and Trek exchanged the wheels fro
> Shimano to Campy compatible at no cost. The wheels are 20 spokes front,
> 24 rear, and the rear is laced two cross on the drive side, radially on
> the non-drive side.
>
> I now have about 8500 km (5300 miles) on the bike. Recently, I noticed
> that the rear wheel was a bit out of true. I checked, and one spoke on
> the non-drive side was quite loose. I tightened it up to something like
> the tension of the other spokes, and rode it some more. The next time I
> cleaned the bike, the spoke was loose again. I tightened it again.
> When I cleaned the bike on Friday, the spoke was loose again, and again
> I tightened it. I rode the bike 67 km on Saturday, and today I checked
> the spoke - it seemed a little less tight than the neighboring spokes.
>
> What causes this to happen? Do I need to take it to the shop? The bike
> is one year old later this month, by the way.
It gets loose because, well, it already is loose.
If it's not under sufficient tension, each revolution will cause the
spoke to go completely slack, and when it's unweighted, the re-
tensioning is like an impact wrench, pounding the nipple looser and
looser.
Two main schools of thought here:
1) have the entire wheel brought up to higher tension. To do that, a
tensiometer and the manufacturer's spec for the rim are needed, so you
don't risk damaging the rim.
2) use a spoke compound, like the DT/Loctite one, or Wheelsmith Spoke
Prep, to lock the threads in place.
The adherents to each method are zealous in their proclamations that
the other side is wrong, so prepare for the flame wars to begin.
|
| | |
Date: 12 Aug 2007 19:09:23
From: Colin Campbell
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
Hank Wirtz wrote:
> On Aug 12, 6:37 pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>> I have a 2006 Trek 5200 with the Bontrager Race Lite wheels. I upgraded
>> the componentry to Campy Record, and Trek exchanged the wheels fro
>> Shimano to Campy compatible at no cost. The wheels are 20 spokes front,
>> 24 rear, and the rear is laced two cross on the drive side, radially on
>> the non-drive side.
>>
>> I now have about 8500 km (5300 miles) on the bike. Recently, I noticed
>> that the rear wheel was a bit out of true. I checked, and one spoke on
>> the non-drive side was quite loose. I tightened it up to something like
>> the tension of the other spokes, and rode it some more. The next time I
>> cleaned the bike, the spoke was loose again. I tightened it again.
>> When I cleaned the bike on Friday, the spoke was loose again, and again
>> I tightened it. I rode the bike 67 km on Saturday, and today I checked
>> the spoke - it seemed a little less tight than the neighboring spokes.
>>
>> What causes this to happen? Do I need to take it to the shop? The bike
>> is one year old later this month, by the way.
>
> It gets loose because, well, it already is loose.
>
> If it's not under sufficient tension, each revolution will cause the
> spoke to go completely slack, and when it's unweighted, the re-
> tensioning is like an impact wrench, pounding the nipple looser and
> looser.
>
> Two main schools of thought here:
>
> 1) have the entire wheel brought up to higher tension. To do that, a
> tensiometer and the manufacturer's spec for the rim are needed, so you
> don't risk damaging the rim.
>
> 2) use a spoke compound, like the DT/Loctite one, or Wheelsmith Spoke
> Prep, to lock the threads in place.
>
> The adherents to each method are zealous in their proclamations that
> the other side is wrong, so prepare for the flame wars to begin.
>
So, do you mean it probably was faulty when the bike was delivered? (I
don't know whether the LBS checked the wheel when they received it from
Trek, or even whether they are supposed to need to do so.)
The wheels have surprised me with their durability. I weighed about 88
kg (190+ pounds) when the bike was delivered, and I've had enough wheel
problems over the past 23 years that I think of myself as somewhat "hard
on wheels". My older Trek has Campy / DT Swiss / Mavic 32 spoke wheels
built for an even older bike, and weighs a bit more than a pound more
than the new bike.
I have lost nearly 10 kg in the past several months, though, and it's
been during this period I've noticed the loose spoke! Maybe I should
carry some weights when I ride?!?
|
| | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 21:31:15
From: Andrew Price
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 19:09:23 -0700, Colin Campbell
<cmcampb@adelphia.net > wrote:
[---]
>I have lost nearly 10 kg in the past several months
That's impressively fast - what was your method?
|
| | | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 18:03:11
From: Colin Campbell
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
Andrew Price wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 19:09:23 -0700, Colin Campbell
> <cmcampb@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> [---]
>
>> I have lost nearly 10 kg in the past several months
>
> That's impressively fast - what was your method?
Truthfully, I don't know. I retired in June of 2004, and stepped up my
riding from about 7,500 miles to 10,000 miles annually. I go to the gym
four afternoons a week, but I had not lost weight, just traded some fat
for muscle.
I started when I learned in mid-March that my high school reunion would
be at the end of April. I dropped five pounds by then (about a pound a
week). I had been riding every day for 90 days up to late April; then
we drove from So Cal to Dallas and back, so I only rode a couple of
times for a week. I tried to cut back on desserts, and maybe eat a bit
less at each meal.
When we got back home, I started riding every day again, and continued
to lose weight. I got roped in to some long rides - a 70 mile organized
fiasco, a ride to San Diego (which actually ended in Solana Beach when
we all wanted lunch more than we wanted to climb Torrey Pines), helping
friends train for a century that is being held this coming weekend, etc.
I did four 300 mile weeks in five (and 290 miles the fifth week).
I've now ridden 104 consecutive days since May 2. About six weeks ago,
the weight loss and an increased regimen of core exercises started
showing up in my riding. I could climb better, I could go harder for
longer, I could close gaps just by telling my legs to do so. Naturally,
this led me to ride even more.
I find now that my appetite and eating capacity have both decreased.
Last week, I couldn't eat all of a breakfast that I've treated myself to
for years. I'm generally eating a little better than I used to, less
cheese, more bananas, etc.
So I guess the simple answer is "Ride more, eat less."
|
| | | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 15:25:10
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
In article <46c0ff4b$0$28678$4c368faf@roadrunner.com >,
Colin Campbell <cmcampb@adelphia.net > wrote:
> Andrew Price wrote:
> > On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 19:09:23 -0700, Colin Campbell
> > <cmcampb@adelphia.net> wrote:
> >
> > [---]
> >
> >> I have lost nearly 10 kg in the past several months
> >
> > That's impressively fast - what was your method?
> Truthfully, I don't know. I retired in June of 2004, and stepped up my
> riding from about 7,500 miles to 10,000 miles annually. I go to the gym
> four afternoons a week, but I had not lost weight, just traded some fat
> for muscle.
>
> I started when I learned in mid-March that my high school reunion would
> be at the end of April. I dropped five pounds by then (about a pound a
> week). I had been riding every day for 90 days up to late April; then
> we drove from So Cal to Dallas and back, so I only rode a couple of
> times for a week. I tried to cut back on desserts, and maybe eat a bit
> less at each meal.
>
> When we got back home, I started riding every day again, and continued
> to lose weight. I got roped in to some long rides - a 70 mile organized
> fiasco, a ride to San Diego (which actually ended in Solana Beach when
> we all wanted lunch more than we wanted to climb Torrey Pines), helping
> friends train for a century that is being held this coming weekend, etc.
> I did four 300 mile weeks in five (and 290 miles the fifth week).
>
> I've now ridden 104 consecutive days since May 2. About six weeks ago,
> the weight loss and an increased regimen of core exercises started
> showing up in my riding. I could climb better, I could go harder for
> longer, I could close gaps just by telling my legs to do so. Naturally,
> this led me to ride even more.
>
> I find now that my appetite and eating capacity have both decreased.
> Last week, I couldn't eat all of a breakfast that I've treated myself to
> for years. I'm generally eating a little better than I used to, less
> cheese, more bananas, etc.
>
> So I guess the simple answer is "Ride more, eat less."
Thanks for the lucid account. No overnight change. The
change is cumulative. Then, overnight, you see the
change.
I too decided to step up (a one inch step) the effort I
put into riding. After a long while I "suddenly" had a
lot more that I could easily put into turning the
cranks.
As to diet, you should never feel deprived. Always
avail yourself of treats. A treat is not conditional;
no "earning" a treat.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 19:39:23
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
Michael Press of Possum Lodge wrote:
> ...
> As to diet, you should never feel deprived. Always
> avail yourself of treats. A treat is not conditional;
> no "earning" a treat.
Nonsense. If there is something a person wants, generally it is bad
and/or immoral. If in doubt, do not take the action.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 16:23:43
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
In article
<46c23f23$0$16374$88260bb3@free.teranews.com >,
"Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote:
> Michael Press of Possum Lodge wrote:
> > ...
> > As to diet, you should never feel deprived. Always
> > avail yourself of treats. A treat is not conditional;
> > no "earning" a treat.
>
> Nonsense. If there is something a person wants, generally it is bad
> and/or immoral. If in doubt, do not take the action.
Well, everybody, I stick with what I said.
Even when adopting a new food regimen,
do not go feeling deprived. Be sure to
treat your self well; eat something that
you truly enjoy.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 20:58:52
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <46c23f23$0$16374$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
> "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote:
>
>> Michael Press of Possum Lodge wrote:
>>> ...
>>> As to diet, you should never feel deprived. Always
>>> avail yourself of treats. A treat is not conditional;
>>> no "earning" a treat.
>> Nonsense. If there is something a person wants, generally it is bad
>> and/or immoral. If in doubt, do not take the action.
>
> Well, everybody, I stick with what I said.
> Even when adopting a new food regimen,
> do not go feeling deprived. Be sure to
> treat your self well; eat something that
> you truly enjoy.
Deprivation and suffering build moral character.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 17 Aug 2007 21:38:24
From: Andrew Price
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:58:52 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote:
>> Well, everybody, I stick with what I said.
>> Even when adopting a new food regimen,
>> do not go feeling deprived. Be sure to
>> treat your self well; eat something that
>> you truly enjoy.
>
>Deprivation and suffering build moral character.
I don't see that "building moral character" has anything to do with
it. If you want to lose weight, then your calorie intake - for equal
output - has to be reduced. That means going without that piece of
cheese or the chocolate bar you'd so much like - unless you're
prepared to ride an extra 10km to burn it off.
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 20:03:41
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Why does a spoke get "loose"?
|
Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> Deprivation and suffering build moral character.
So you should be Mother Freaking Theresa! LOL
|
|
