Widest tires on vintage clincher rims ?

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Date: 18 Jun 2007 15:06:53
From: still me
Subject: Widest tires on vintage clincher rims ?

How wide a (possibly cyclo-cross) tire can I run on the following
rims:

- Weinmann Concave's 17-18mm inside / 22-23mm outside ?
- Mavic module E 13-14mm inside / 20mm outside ?

Also, the Weinmann's have no hooks. Do I need to be selective about
what tires I buy for these rims or will any bead work?

Thanks,

Date: 19 Jun 2007 05:09:15
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: Widest tires on vintage clincher rims ?

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>
> still me wrote:
>
> > - Mavic module E 13-14mm inside / 20mm outside ?
>
> I've used 32mm ("actual width") tires on the very similar MA-2 w/o
> problems.

I am reminded of the cut-down MA-40s that Keith Bontrager made as the
first narrow rims for MTB. I know they weren't particularly stout,
but I don't recall folks having trouble with them on account of tire
width-- and those were 1.9" to 2.2" tires that were mounted on
there.

I had a pair of Matrix Iso-C ATB rims that were no more than 19mm
outside and probably 13mm inside, and I used them with all sorts of
tires from 26 x 1 Specialized Turbo S to 26 x 2.6 Fisher Bear Trax.

I can't imagine 35mm cyclocross tires being a problem on even the
narrowest hook-beaded rims ever made.

Chalo

Date: 18 Jun 2007 23:28:49
From: G.T.
Subject: Re: Widest tires on vintage clincher rims ?

Chalo wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>> still me wrote:
>>
>>> - Mavic module E 13-14mm inside / 20mm outside ?
>> I've used 32mm ("actual width") tires on the very similar MA-2 w/o
>> problems.
>
> I am reminded of the cut-down MA-40s that Keith Bontrager made as the
> first narrow rims for MTB. I know they weren't particularly stout,
> but I don't recall folks having trouble with them on account of tire
> width-- and those were 1.9" to 2.2" tires that were mounted on
> there.
>
> I had a pair of Matrix Iso-C ATB rims that were no more than 19mm
> outside and probably 13mm inside, and I used them with all sorts of
> tires from 26 x 1 Specialized Turbo S to 26 x 2.6 Fisher Bear Trax.
>
> I can't imagine 35mm cyclocross tires being a problem on even the
> narrowest hook-beaded rims ever made.
>

Yep. I'm running some 52mm Moto Raptors (44mm Mutano Raptor on the
rear) on some skinny rims right now:

http://homepage.mac.com/getosx/mcgill/soma_on_pinos.jpg

Greg

Date: 19 Jun 2007 21:38:49
From: still me
Subject: Re: Widest tires on vintage clincher rims ?

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 23:28:49 -0700, "G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme.com >
wrote:

>
>Yep. I'm running some 52mm Moto Raptors (44mm Mutano Raptor on the
>rear) on some skinny rims right now:
>
>http://homepage.mac.com/getosx/mcgill/soma_on_pinos.jpg
>
>Greg

Wow... guess I should stop worrying :-)

Date: 18 Jun 2007 19:11:43
From: Johnny Sunset
Subject: Re: Widest tires on vintage clincher rims ?

On Jun 18, 5:20 pm, datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
> sheldon brown had a basic rim size to tire size chart online
^^^

Still does: <http://sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html >.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Date: 18 Jun 2007 22:20:43
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Widest tires on vintage clincher rims ?

sheldon brown had a basic rim size to tire size chart online

Date: 18 Jun 2007 13:26:15
From: bfd
Subject: Re: Widest tires on vintage clincher rims ?

On Jun 18, 10:10 am, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu > wrote:
> Here's a photo of a Ibis Scorcher I used to have.
> I put on Avocet Duro Plus 700 x 35's, now listed as 32's by Avocet,
> on Mavic MA-2 Rims.http://www.63xc.com/scorcher/scorcher.htm
>
> As far as comfort, I didn't see a significant difference between the
> Avocet Duro Plus 700 x 35 and the Road 700 x 25. The bigger tire
> felt quite a bit heavier and was somewhat sluggish at high speeds.
> The Avocet Road 700 x 25 are good enough, unless you need the
> look of a fatter tire.
> -tom

I agree, the Avocet Fasgrip Road 700x25 are excellent tires. The
comfort "secret" for me was to pump them up to 90-95 psi. This gets ya
plenty of comfort with no noticeable loss of performance. Try it!

Date: 18 Jun 2007 13:43:57
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Widest tires on vintage clincher rims ?

"bfd" <bfd853@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1182198375.868379.243120@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 18, 10:10 am, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> Here's a photo of a Ibis Scorcher I used to have.
>> I put on Avocet Duro Plus 700 x 35's, now listed as 32's by Avocet,
>> on Mavic MA-2 Rims.http://www.63xc.com/scorcher/scorcher.htm
>>
>> As far as comfort, I didn't see a significant difference between the
>> Avocet Duro Plus 700 x 35 and the Road 700 x 25. The bigger tire
>> felt quite a bit heavier and was somewhat sluggish at high speeds.
>> The Avocet Road 700 x 25 are good enough, unless you need the
>> look of a fatter tire.
>> -tom
>
> I agree, the Avocet Fasgrip Road 700x25 are excellent tires. The
> comfort "secret" for me was to pump them up to 90-95 psi. This gets ya
> plenty of comfort with no noticeable loss of performance. Try it!

Yes, agree 90-95psi for the Avocet Fasgrip Road 25's are pretty
close to the sew-up tire feel for comfort. I sure do miss the tan-colored
sidewalls. When I ride with a fast group, I go 105 psi rear and
100 psi front.
-tom

Date: 18 Jun 2007 11:26:55
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Widest tires on vintage clincher rims ?

On Jun 18, 1:00 pm, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com > wrote:
> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1182187252.853764.204620@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 18, 11:51 am, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> > > "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
> message
>
> > >news:1182181445.558360.224220@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > > On Jun 18, 10:06 am, still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > How wide a (possibly cyclo-cross) tire can I run on the following
> > > > > rims:
>
> > > > > - Weinmann Concave's 17-18mm inside / 22-23mm outside ?
>
> > > > IIRC, those would be Weinmann A-129s. Wire bead tires *only*!
> 32-35mm
> > > > width is probably OK, but watch the pressure and seat the tire
> > > > carefully.
>
> > > > > - Mavic module E 13-14mm inside / 20mm outside ?
>
> > > > I've used 32mm ("actual width") tires on the very similar MA-2 w/o
> > > > problems.
>
> > > <snip>
>
> > > The Module E rims were the first generation of "high pressure"
> clinchers
> > > rims and they were designed for Michelin Elans. They were designed to
> > > replace sewups thus the narrow 20mm rim width.
>
> > Same width, inside and outside as an MA-2......
>
> Nope, I have at least 6 sets of MA, MA-2 and MA40 rims plus extras. They
> are 16+mm wide on the inside and 22mm wide on the outside.

Not trying to be difficult, but MA-2s are ~13mm between the hooks, and
~20mm on the outside. IIRC, Mavic speced the MA-2 as 13-622.

> I just changed
> a slow leaking tube on an MA-2 yesterday and noticed that it had a 13mm
> wide rim strip instead of the correct 16-17mm wide one.

Yes, they are, of course, wider down on the bead seat and will accept
a 16mm wide rim strip.
>
>
>
>
>

Date: 19 Jun 2007 01:59:53
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Widest tires on vintage clincher rims ?

Date: 18 Jun 2007 13:24:15
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Widest tires on vintage clincher rims ?

"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote in message
news:1182191215.374961.188930@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 18, 1:00 pm, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> > "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
message
> >
> > news:1182187252.853764.204620@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jun 18, 11:51 am, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> > > > "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
> > message
> >
> > > >news:1182181445.558360.224220@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > > > > On Jun 18, 10:06 am, still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > How wide a (possibly cyclo-cross) tire can I run on the
following
> > > > > > rims:
> >
> > > > > > - Weinmann Concave's 17-18mm inside / 22-23mm outside ?
> >
> > > > > IIRC, those would be Weinmann A-129s. Wire bead tires *only*!
> > 32-35mm
> > > > > width is probably OK, but watch the pressure and seat the tire
> > > > > carefully.
> >
> > > > > > - Mavic module E 13-14mm inside / 20mm outside ?
> >
> > > > > I've used 32mm ("actual width") tires on the very similar MA-2
w/o
> > > > > problems.
> >
> > > > <snip>
> >
> > > > The Module E rims were the first generation of "high pressure"
> > clinchers
> > > > rims and they were designed for Michelin Elans. They were designed
to
> > > > replace sewups thus the narrow 20mm rim width.
> >
> > > Same width, inside and outside as an MA-2......
> >
> > Nope, I have at least 6 sets of MA, MA-2 and MA40 rims plus extras.
They
> > are 16+mm wide on the inside and 22mm wide on the outside.
>
>
> Not trying to be difficult, but MA-2s are ~13mm between the hooks, and
> ~20mm on the outside. IIRC, Mavic speced the MA-2 as 13-622.
>

Being difficult, I just measured a pair of NOS MA rims, five MA-40 rims
including 1 NOS and a NOS Open Pro rim. (MAs are the early version of the
MA-2 rims with a single piece spoke eyelet)

I was wrong on the 22mm outside width, they are all 20mm wide.

The MA family of rims have a 14mm wide opening at the top of the hook and
are under cut at least 1mm on each side below the hook requiring 16-17mm
rim tape. The Open Pro was 15mm wide.

> > I just changed
> > a slow leaking tube on an MA-2 yesterday and noticed that it had a
13mm
> > wide rim strip instead of the correct 16-17mm wide one.
>
> Yes, they are, of course, wider down on the bead seat and will accept
> a 16mm wide rim strip.

What do the French know, they brought us the deux chevaux, the Maginot
Line, the Trabant - oh! - that was east Germany - well it sounds French...
;-)

Chas.

Date: 18 Jun 2007 10:20:52
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Widest tires on vintage clincher rims ?

On Jun 18, 11:51 am, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com > wrote:
> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1182181445.558360.224220@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Jun 18, 10:06 am, still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > How wide a (possibly cyclo-cross) tire can I run on the following
> > > rims:
>
> > > - Weinmann Concave's 17-18mm inside / 22-23mm outside ?
>
> > IIRC, those would be Weinmann A-129s. Wire bead tires *only*! 32-35mm
> > width is probably OK, but watch the pressure and seat the tire
> > carefully.
>
> > > - Mavic module E 13-14mm inside / 20mm outside ?
>
> > I've used 32mm ("actual width") tires on the very similar MA-2 w/o
> > problems.
>
> <snip>
>
> The Module E rims were the first generation of "high pressure" clinchers
> rims and they were designed for Michelin Elans. They were designed to
> replace sewups thus the narrow 20mm rim width.

Same width, inside and outside as an MA-2......

>
> Modern 19mm to 22mm tires should work OK on Module E rims if the tire
> pressure is kept down. Some of the rims that style had inconsistent bead
> hooks.
>

It's been a l-o-o-o-n-n-n-g time since I had a firsthand look at a
Module E; was the hook less pronounced than on a MA-2? More of a
"bulge" than a "hook"?

Date: 18 Jun 2007 11:00:03
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Widest tires on vintage clincher rims ?

"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote in message
news:1182187252.853764.204620@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 18, 11:51 am, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> > "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
message
> >
> > news:1182181445.558360.224220@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > > On Jun 18, 10:06 am, still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > How wide a (possibly cyclo-cross) tire can I run on the following
> > > > rims:
> >
> > > > - Weinmann Concave's 17-18mm inside / 22-23mm outside ?
> >
> > > IIRC, those would be Weinmann A-129s. Wire bead tires *only*!
32-35mm
> > > width is probably OK, but watch the pressure and seat the tire
> > > carefully.
> >
> > > > - Mavic module E 13-14mm inside / 20mm outside ?
> >
> > > I've used 32mm ("actual width") tires on the very similar MA-2 w/o
> > > problems.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > The Module E rims were the first generation of "high pressure"
clinchers
> > rims and they were designed for Michelin Elans. They were designed to
> > replace sewups thus the narrow 20mm rim width.
>
> Same width, inside and outside as an MA-2......
>

Nope, I have at least 6 sets of MA, MA-2 and MA40 rims plus extras. They
are 16+mm wide on the inside and 22mm wide on the outside. I just changed
a slow leaking tube on an MA-2 yesterday and noticed that it had a 13mm
wide rim strip instead of the correct 16-17mm wide one.

> >
> > Modern 19mm to 22mm tires should work OK on Module E rims if the tire
> > pressure is kept down. Some of the rims that style had inconsistent
bead
> > hooks.
> >
>
> It's been a l-o-o-o-n-n-n-g time since I had a firsthand look at a
> Module E; was the hook less pronounced than on a MA-2? More of a
> "bulge" than a "hook"?
>

Yep, the hook is much less pronounced on some of the Mavic Module E, Super
Champion Gentlemen and Rigida 1320 rims. I've seen some rims where the
hooks varies in size in different places around the rim.

The original Michelin Elans had very thick gum sidewalls all the way down
to the bead. I always thought that the thick rubber helped keep them on
the rim as much as the hook did. It was at least as strong as the hairnet
casing.... ;-(

Those are the correct style clincher rims for several of my retro queens
but I've avoided them because the 2mm difference in the outside width of
the MA-2 family of rims leaves me with a much better feeling of safety
when I'm riding them.

The only real advantage of the 1320 rims is that you can switch wheels
between clinchers and sewups and not have to change your brake
adjustments.

Chas.

Date: 18 Jun 2007 09:05:46
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Widest tires on vintage clincher rims ?

"still me" <wheeledBob@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:5o6d731r2soe3lghc1bt9f0vbf161vuael@4ax.com...
> How wide a (possibly cyclo-cross) tire can I run on the following
> rims:
>
> - Weinmann Concave's 17-18mm inside / 22-23mm outside ?
> - Mavic module E 13-14mm inside / 20mm outside ?
>
> Also, the Weinmann's have no hooks. Do I need to be selective about
> what tires I buy for these rims or will any bead work?
>
> Thanks,
>
>

I can't answer your question completely but I can give you some historical
info.

First off, what size are these rims? If they're 27" rims your tire
selection is going to be limited.

The Weinmann Concave rims were made in the days when there were very few
tires designed to run at more than 90 PSI. IRC came out with some of the
first 100+ PSI tires and they would blow off of some rims.

They were fairly heavy rims but not as strong as the Super Champion Mod 58
and similar Rigida 1622. I've seen a few Concaves break at the joint.

I've ridden the Super Champion Mod 58 and Rigida 1622 offroad for years
with tires as big as 700x47c.

The Mavic Module E and similar rims came out in conjunction with or
response to Michelin's Elan tires. The Elans were available in 27" x 1 (in
reality .75) and 700x19c. They were the first serious attempt to produce a
clincher tire to replace sewups.

Elans where supposed to hold 100+ PSI and used a new style small diameter
light weight tube that was prone to failure at the stem. The casings on
the Elans looked like they were made from hairnet material. They were very
prone to sidewall blowouts at high pressures and pinch flats at lower
pressures. The sidewalls were very heavy gum rubber.

Folks riding Elans had far more tire problems than sewup riders.

Wolber was the first company that I can remember that brought out a decent
tire for those rims. I seem to recall that there were some consistency
problems with the hooks in some of those style rims but I can't remember
which brands.

You should be able to use some of the modern 19mm to 22mm tires on the
Module E rims but I wouldn't go overboard on tire pressure.

Both of those rims are "classics". The designs are 30+ years old. If I
were planning on doing any offroad riding today I'd use modern rims, there
are so many better designed rims available.

Chas.

Date: 18 Jun 2007 08:44:05
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Widest tires on vintage clincher rims ?

On Jun 18, 10:06 am, still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> How wide a (possibly cyclo-cross) tire can I run on the following
> rims:
>
> - Weinmann Concave's 17-18mm inside / 22-23mm outside ?

IIRC, those would be Weinmann A-129s. Wire bead tires *only*! 32-35mm
width is probably OK, but watch the pressure and seat the tire
carefully.

> - Mavic module E 13-14mm inside / 20mm outside ?

I've used 32mm ("actual width") tires on the very similar MA-2 w/o
problems.

>
> Also, the Weinmann's have no hooks. Do I need to be selective about
> what tires I buy for these rims or will any bead work?

See above.

>
> Thanks,

Date: 18 Jun 2007 09:51:00
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Widest tires on vintage clincher rims ?

"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote in message
news:1182181445.558360.224220@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 18, 10:06 am, still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > How wide a (possibly cyclo-cross) tire can I run on the following
> > rims:
> >
> > - Weinmann Concave's 17-18mm inside / 22-23mm outside ?
>
> IIRC, those would be Weinmann A-129s. Wire bead tires *only*! 32-35mm
> width is probably OK, but watch the pressure and seat the tire
> carefully.
>
>
> > - Mavic module E 13-14mm inside / 20mm outside ?
>
> I've used 32mm ("actual width") tires on the very similar MA-2 w/o
> problems.

<snip >

The Module E rims were the first generation of "high pressure" clinchers
rims and they were designed for Michelin Elans. They were designed to
replace sewups thus the narrow 20mm rim width.

Modern 19mm to 22mm tires should work OK on Module E rims if the tire
pressure is kept down. Some of the rims that style had inconsistent bead
hooks.

Chas.

Date: 18 Jun 2007 10:10:21
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Widest tires on vintage clincher rims ?

Here's a photo of a Ibis Scorcher I used to have.
I put on Avocet Duro Plus 700 x 35's, now listed as 32's by Avocet,
on Mavic MA-2 Rims.
http://www.63xc.com/scorcher/scorcher.htm

As far as comfort, I didn't see a significant difference between the
Avocet Duro Plus 700 x 35 and the Road 700 x 25. The bigger tire
felt quite a bit heavier and was somewhat sluggish at high speeds.
The Avocet Road 700 x 25 are good enough, unless you need the
look of a fatter tire.
-tom

Date: 18 Jun 2007 23:26:18
From: G.T.
Subject: Re: Widest tires on vintage clincher rims ?

Tom Nakashima wrote:
> Here's a photo of a Ibis Scorcher I used to have.
> I put on Avocet Duro Plus 700 x 35's, now listed as 32's by Avocet,
> on Mavic MA-2 Rims.

I used to run 52mm tires on my MA-2s with no problem. Actually 2.1" mtn
bike tires on the 26" MA-2s.

Greg