| |
Main
Date: 07 Jun 2007 11:30:58
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: bike prices out of wack.......
|
When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of $2100.
It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9 lists for
$8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect it will
break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike will be $8000
better than my Trek 5200? Harley-Davidson has demographic studies, and they
know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to have to
put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or face
plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future too, or
will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess if my 5200 frame
ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
|
|
| |
Date: 11 Jun 2007 22:16:17
From:
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Jun 11, 2:50 pm, Joe Riel <j...@san.rr.com > wrote:
> doug.lan...@gmail.com writes:
> > I predict that a 1% loss of weight would not result in a faster time
> > up a hill. The rider would ride the hill in the same gear and cadence
> > that he or she always does, the going would just be 1% easier.
>
> Suppose it were a 1% weight gain. Would that change the time?
> Do you really think a rider's cadence is so narrowly constrained
> that a 1% change isn't likely? How do you manage, considering
> adjacent ratios differ by around 10%.
>
Do you really suppose that the rider would sense the 1% ease and
increase cadence by 1% to keep power output the same? I don't think
that a rider's cadence is so narrowly constrained that the rider could
not function very similarly at 1% increased cadence, at the same time,
I don't see any reason to think that the adjustment would happen
without a concious and repeated effort.
It's also quite possible that the cadence was already on the far side
of the point of diminishing returns, and the once percent additional
makes it an even less comfortable.
I manage by not worrying about my times every time I ride.
across a boundary.
|
| |
Date: 11 Jun 2007 14:50:06
From: Joe Riel
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
doug.landau@gmail.com writes:
> I predict that a 1% loss of weight would not result in a faster time
> up a hill. The rider would ride the hill in the same gear and cadence
> that he or she always does, the going would just be 1% easier.
Suppose it were a 1% weight gain. Would that change the time?
Do you really think a rider's cadence is so narrowly constrained
that a 1% change isn't likely? How do you manage, considering
adjacent ratios differ by around 10%.
--
Joe Riel
|
| |
Date: 11 Jun 2007 21:24:41
From:
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Jun 10, 5:32 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 20:24:10 -0400, "David L. Johnson"
>
> <david.john...@lehigh.edu> wrote:
> >carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>
> >> Within any reasonable range of power and on any day, the rider will be
> >> 1% faster up the hill if he's on on the bicycle that's 1% lighter, no
> >> matter whether we predict his power or not.
>
> >No. He will be 1% faster if the whole package (bike and rider) is 1%
> >lighter. This, for me, would be a bike that is 10% or so lighter.
>
> Dear David,
>
> True--you've picked the one careless sentence from a lengthy post.
>
> As the rest of the post (and several followups) clearly explained, 1%
> of the total weight.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
On the contrary - the whole analysis was based on careless
assumptions; for starters, that the rider's output is linear, and that
the bicycle presents a linear interface to the rider.
Doug
|
| |
Date: 11 Jun 2007 21:11:32
From:
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Jun 9, 9:34 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 16:06:32 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo
>
>
>
> <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> >On Jun 9, 12:58 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> >> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 07:05:32 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo
>
> >> <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> >> >On Jun 7, 7:46 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > The following was a $$$urprise! BUT Consdier cycle tire labor costs/
> >> >> > materials, cost of carbon frames: bolt together v laid up together.
> >> >> > There's always the question now: is this a Chinese paddle with USA/
> >> >> > Euro pricing? And profit, without market effects like Surly?
> >> >> >http://www.epickayaks.com/products/?nid=664
>
> >> >> ----------
> >> >> Speaking of the devil, I just bought a carbon fiber paddle yesterday,
> >> >> and YES the PRICE was outrageous. Paddle weights range from 25 oz to 40 oz.
> >> >> I saw some statistic that even a 2 oz difference in paddles adds up to huge
> >> >> amount of weight difference that you had to lift paddleing in one day. To
> >> >> compare it to bikes, the difference in paddle weights and materials are very
> >> >> apparent, and sometimes are the difference in even being able to paddle 6
> >> >> hours or not. With bikes, to be truthfull, I really don't feel a difference
> >> >> between a 22 lb bike and a 20 lb bike, geometry and fit is what I really
> >> >> feel.
>
> >> >Cuz with paddling, you ARE lifting the the paddle but not your body
> >> >weight. With a bike, you are 'lifting' the bike and your body..so a 2
> >> >pound difference is only about 1% of the total, and reducing the
> >> >weight by 1% does not mean you will be 1% faster up the hill. I tell
> >> >the boys with 15 pound bikes that if I lose 20 pounds it's like I just
> >> >bought a zero pound bike...
>
> >> Dear Peter,
>
> >> Actually, a 1% total weight reduction _does_ increase a bicyclist's
> >> speed about 1% up a hill.
>
> >> On hills, a rider's main effort goes into raising his weight, and
> >> typical riders go so slowly that wind drag becomes negligiible.
>
> >> But we don't notice 1% speed increases up hills because the hills are
> >> so short, we're going so slowly, and the speed change is so tiny that
> >> it's lost in ordinary variation--a 1% speed increase up a 6 mile climb
> >> at 6 miles per hour amounts to 36 seconds per hour.
>
> >> Here's a calculator detailed enough to show the difference:
>
> >>http://w3.iac.net/~curta/bp/velocityN/velocity.html
>
> >> Plug in 200 watts with a 100 kg total weight consisting of a 90 kg
> >> rider and a 10 kg bike. A 6% slope produces a speed of 10.438321 km/h.
>
> >> Drop the total weight 1% by changing to a 9 kg bike, and speed rises
> >> to 10.535252 km/h.
>
> >> 10.535252 / 10.438321 = 1.0093, a 0.93% speed increase
>
> >> Drop the total weight 10% by taking 10 kg off the rider (~22 lbs of
> >> impressive dieting) and leaving the bike at 10 kg, and speed rises to
> >> 11.487388 km/h.
>
> >> 11.487388 / 10.438321 = 1.1005, a 10.05% speed increase
>
> >> Cheers,
>
> >> Carl Fogel
>
> >yep, assuming all things, including the riders 'output' is both
> >predicable and equal, day to day..which of course, it isn't.
>
> Dear Peter,
>
> Sorry, but physics is relentless. When you're just plain wrong,
> arguing about the results of power is silly.
>
> Within any reasonable range of power and on any day, the rider will be
> 1% faster up the hill if he's on on the bicycle that's 1% lighter, no
> matter whether we predict his power or not.
>
> The daily power variation is just a red herring.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
Carl,
Your response reveals the complete and total lack of relevance that
your own riding brings to the table. :-) Peter is right, and your
response clearly shows that your level 15 mile per day dawdle has
taught you nothing about cadence, hills, biomechanics, or human
athletic performance and ability in general - or in specific areas.
In other words, next to nothing at all about cycling.
I predict that a 1% loss of weight would not result in a faster time
up a hill. The rider would ride the hill in the same gear and cadence
that he or she always does, the going would just be 1% easier.
You might be correct if the bike had an infinitely variable
transmission. That not being the case, your analysis is naive and
incorrect.
Doug
Doug
~
|
| |
Date: 10 Jun 2007 06:10:23
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Jun 9, 10:34 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 16:06:32 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo
>
>
>
> <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> >On Jun 9, 12:58 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> >> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 07:05:32 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo
>
> >> <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> >> >On Jun 7, 7:46 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > The following was a $$$urprise! BUT Consdier cycle tire labor costs/
> >> >> > materials, cost of carbon frames: bolt together v laid up together.
> >> >> > There's always the question now: is this a Chinese paddle with USA/
> >> >> > Euro pricing? And profit, without market effects like Surly?
> >> >> >http://www.epickayaks.com/products/?nid=664
>
> >> >> ----------
> >> >> Speaking of the devil, I just bought a carbon fiber paddle yesterday,
> >> >> and YES the PRICE was outrageous. Paddle weights range from 25 oz to 40 oz.
> >> >> I saw some statistic that even a 2 oz difference in paddles adds up to huge
> >> >> amount of weight difference that you had to lift paddleing in one day. To
> >> >> compare it to bikes, the difference in paddle weights and materials are very
> >> >> apparent, and sometimes are the difference in even being able to paddle 6
> >> >> hours or not. With bikes, to be truthfull, I really don't feel a difference
> >> >> between a 22 lb bike and a 20 lb bike, geometry and fit is what I really
> >> >> feel.
>
> >> >Cuz with paddling, you ARE lifting the the paddle but not your body
> >> >weight. With a bike, you are 'lifting' the bike and your body..so a 2
> >> >pound difference is only about 1% of the total, and reducing the
> >> >weight by 1% does not mean you will be 1% faster up the hill. I tell
> >> >the boys with 15 pound bikes that if I lose 20 pounds it's like I just
> >> >bought a zero pound bike...
>
> >> Dear Peter,
>
> >> Actually, a 1% total weight reduction _does_ increase a bicyclist's
> >> speed about 1% up a hill.
>
> >> On hills, a rider's main effort goes into raising his weight, and
> >> typical riders go so slowly that wind drag becomes negligiible.
>
> >> But we don't notice 1% speed increases up hills because the hills are
> >> so short, we're going so slowly, and the speed change is so tiny that
> >> it's lost in ordinary variation--a 1% speed increase up a 6 mile climb
> >> at 6 miles per hour amounts to 36 seconds per hour.
>
> >> Here's a calculator detailed enough to show the difference:
>
> >>http://w3.iac.net/~curta/bp/velocityN/velocity.html
>
> >> Plug in 200 watts with a 100 kg total weight consisting of a 90 kg
> >> rider and a 10 kg bike. A 6% slope produces a speed of 10.438321 km/h.
>
> >> Drop the total weight 1% by changing to a 9 kg bike, and speed rises
> >> to 10.535252 km/h.
>
> >> 10.535252 / 10.438321 = 1.0093, a 0.93% speed increase
>
> >> Drop the total weight 10% by taking 10 kg off the rider (~22 lbs of
> >> impressive dieting) and leaving the bike at 10 kg, and speed rises to
> >> 11.487388 km/h.
>
> >> 11.487388 / 10.438321 = 1.1005, a 10.05% speed increase
>
> >> Cheers,
>
> >> Carl Fogel
>
> >yep, assuming all things, including the riders 'output' is both
> >predicable and equal, day to day..which of course, it isn't.
>
> Dear Peter,
>
> Sorry, but physics is relentless. When you're just plain wrong,
> arguing about the results of power is silly.
>
> Within any reasonable range of power and on any day, the rider will be
> 1% faster up the hill if he's on on the bicycle that's 1% lighter, no
> matter whether we predict his power or not.
>
> The daily power variation is just a red herring.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
Oh that's why the guy that was second place on the hill climb was
first the next year because he got a lighter bike, of course!!!
Cheers,
Peter
|
| | |
Date: 10 Jun 2007 12:51:11
From:
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 06:10:23 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo
<peter@vecchios.com > wrote:
>On Jun 9, 10:34 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 16:06:32 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo
>>
>>
>>
>> <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>> >On Jun 9, 12:58 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 07:05:32 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo
>>
>> >> <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>> >> >On Jun 7, 7:46 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > The following was a $$$urprise! BUT Consdier cycle tire labor costs/
>> >> >> > materials, cost of carbon frames: bolt together v laid up together.
>> >> >> > There's always the question now: is this a Chinese paddle with USA/
>> >> >> > Euro pricing? And profit, without market effects like Surly?
>> >> >> >http://www.epickayaks.com/products/?nid=664
>>
>> >> >> ----------
>> >> >> Speaking of the devil, I just bought a carbon fiber paddle yesterday,
>> >> >> and YES the PRICE was outrageous. Paddle weights range from 25 oz to 40 oz.
>> >> >> I saw some statistic that even a 2 oz difference in paddles adds up to huge
>> >> >> amount of weight difference that you had to lift paddleing in one day. To
>> >> >> compare it to bikes, the difference in paddle weights and materials are very
>> >> >> apparent, and sometimes are the difference in even being able to paddle 6
>> >> >> hours or not. With bikes, to be truthfull, I really don't feel a difference
>> >> >> between a 22 lb bike and a 20 lb bike, geometry and fit is what I really
>> >> >> feel.
>>
>> >> >Cuz with paddling, you ARE lifting the the paddle but not your body
>> >> >weight. With a bike, you are 'lifting' the bike and your body..so a 2
>> >> >pound difference is only about 1% of the total, and reducing the
>> >> >weight by 1% does not mean you will be 1% faster up the hill. I tell
>> >> >the boys with 15 pound bikes that if I lose 20 pounds it's like I just
>> >> >bought a zero pound bike...
>>
>> >> Dear Peter,
>>
>> >> Actually, a 1% total weight reduction _does_ increase a bicyclist's
>> >> speed about 1% up a hill.
>>
>> >> On hills, a rider's main effort goes into raising his weight, and
>> >> typical riders go so slowly that wind drag becomes negligiible.
>>
>> >> But we don't notice 1% speed increases up hills because the hills are
>> >> so short, we're going so slowly, and the speed change is so tiny that
>> >> it's lost in ordinary variation--a 1% speed increase up a 6 mile climb
>> >> at 6 miles per hour amounts to 36 seconds per hour.
>>
>> >> Here's a calculator detailed enough to show the difference:
>>
>> >>http://w3.iac.net/~curta/bp/velocityN/velocity.html
>>
>> >> Plug in 200 watts with a 100 kg total weight consisting of a 90 kg
>> >> rider and a 10 kg bike. A 6% slope produces a speed of 10.438321 km/h.
>>
>> >> Drop the total weight 1% by changing to a 9 kg bike, and speed rises
>> >> to 10.535252 km/h.
>>
>> >> 10.535252 / 10.438321 = 1.0093, a 0.93% speed increase
>>
>> >> Drop the total weight 10% by taking 10 kg off the rider (~22 lbs of
>> >> impressive dieting) and leaving the bike at 10 kg, and speed rises to
>> >> 11.487388 km/h.
>>
>> >> 11.487388 / 10.438321 = 1.1005, a 10.05% speed increase
>>
>> >> Cheers,
>>
>> >> Carl Fogel
>>
>> >yep, assuming all things, including the riders 'output' is both
>> >predicable and equal, day to day..which of course, it isn't.
>>
>> Dear Peter,
>>
>> Sorry, but physics is relentless. When you're just plain wrong,
>> arguing about the results of power is silly.
>>
>> Within any reasonable range of power and on any day, the rider will be
>> 1% faster up the hill if he's on on the bicycle that's 1% lighter, no
>> matter whether we predict his power or not.
>>
>> The daily power variation is just a red herring.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>
>Oh that's why the guy that was second place on the hill climb was
>first the next year because he got a lighter bike, of course!!!
>
>Cheers,
>
>Peter
Dear Peter,
On a tech group, innumeracy is no argument.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| |
Date: 09 Jun 2007 16:06:32
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Jun 9, 12:58 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 07:05:32 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo
>
>
>
> <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> >On Jun 7, 7:46 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> > The following was a $$$urprise! BUT Consdier cycle tire labor costs/
> >> > materials, cost of carbon frames: bolt together v laid up together.
> >> > There's always the question now: is this a Chinese paddle with USA/
> >> > Euro pricing? And profit, without market effects like Surly?
> >> >http://www.epickayaks.com/products/?nid=664
>
> >> ----------
> >> Speaking of the devil, I just bought a carbon fiber paddle yesterday,
> >> and YES the PRICE was outrageous. Paddle weights range from 25 oz to 40 oz.
> >> I saw some statistic that even a 2 oz difference in paddles adds up to huge
> >> amount of weight difference that you had to lift paddleing in one day. To
> >> compare it to bikes, the difference in paddle weights and materials are very
> >> apparent, and sometimes are the difference in even being able to paddle 6
> >> hours or not. With bikes, to be truthfull, I really don't feel a difference
> >> between a 22 lb bike and a 20 lb bike, geometry and fit is what I really
> >> feel.
>
> >Cuz with paddling, you ARE lifting the the paddle but not your body
> >weight. With a bike, you are 'lifting' the bike and your body..so a 2
> >pound difference is only about 1% of the total, and reducing the
> >weight by 1% does not mean you will be 1% faster up the hill. I tell
> >the boys with 15 pound bikes that if I lose 20 pounds it's like I just
> >bought a zero pound bike...
>
> Dear Peter,
>
> Actually, a 1% total weight reduction _does_ increase a bicyclist's
> speed about 1% up a hill.
>
> On hills, a rider's main effort goes into raising his weight, and
> typical riders go so slowly that wind drag becomes negligiible.
>
> But we don't notice 1% speed increases up hills because the hills are
> so short, we're going so slowly, and the speed change is so tiny that
> it's lost in ordinary variation--a 1% speed increase up a 6 mile climb
> at 6 miles per hour amounts to 36 seconds per hour.
>
> Here's a calculator detailed enough to show the difference:
>
> http://w3.iac.net/~curta/bp/velocityN/velocity.html
>
> Plug in 200 watts with a 100 kg total weight consisting of a 90 kg
> rider and a 10 kg bike. A 6% slope produces a speed of 10.438321 km/h.
>
> Drop the total weight 1% by changing to a 9 kg bike, and speed rises
> to 10.535252 km/h.
>
> 10.535252 / 10.438321 = 1.0093, a 0.93% speed increase
>
> Drop the total weight 10% by taking 10 kg off the rider (~22 lbs of
> impressive dieting) and leaving the bike at 10 kg, and speed rises to
> 11.487388 km/h.
>
> 11.487388 / 10.438321 = 1.1005, a 10.05% speed increase
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
yep, assuming all things, including the riders 'output' is both
predicable and equal, day to day..which of course, it isn't.
|
| | |
Date: 09 Jun 2007 22:34:43
From:
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 16:06:32 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo
<peter@vecchios.com > wrote:
>On Jun 9, 12:58 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 07:05:32 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo
>>
>>
>>
>> <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>> >On Jun 7, 7:46 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > The following was a $$$urprise! BUT Consdier cycle tire labor costs/
>> >> > materials, cost of carbon frames: bolt together v laid up together.
>> >> > There's always the question now: is this a Chinese paddle with USA/
>> >> > Euro pricing? And profit, without market effects like Surly?
>> >> >http://www.epickayaks.com/products/?nid=664
>>
>> >> ----------
>> >> Speaking of the devil, I just bought a carbon fiber paddle yesterday,
>> >> and YES the PRICE was outrageous. Paddle weights range from 25 oz to 40 oz.
>> >> I saw some statistic that even a 2 oz difference in paddles adds up to huge
>> >> amount of weight difference that you had to lift paddleing in one day. To
>> >> compare it to bikes, the difference in paddle weights and materials are very
>> >> apparent, and sometimes are the difference in even being able to paddle 6
>> >> hours or not. With bikes, to be truthfull, I really don't feel a difference
>> >> between a 22 lb bike and a 20 lb bike, geometry and fit is what I really
>> >> feel.
>>
>> >Cuz with paddling, you ARE lifting the the paddle but not your body
>> >weight. With a bike, you are 'lifting' the bike and your body..so a 2
>> >pound difference is only about 1% of the total, and reducing the
>> >weight by 1% does not mean you will be 1% faster up the hill. I tell
>> >the boys with 15 pound bikes that if I lose 20 pounds it's like I just
>> >bought a zero pound bike...
>>
>> Dear Peter,
>>
>> Actually, a 1% total weight reduction _does_ increase a bicyclist's
>> speed about 1% up a hill.
>>
>> On hills, a rider's main effort goes into raising his weight, and
>> typical riders go so slowly that wind drag becomes negligiible.
>>
>> But we don't notice 1% speed increases up hills because the hills are
>> so short, we're going so slowly, and the speed change is so tiny that
>> it's lost in ordinary variation--a 1% speed increase up a 6 mile climb
>> at 6 miles per hour amounts to 36 seconds per hour.
>>
>> Here's a calculator detailed enough to show the difference:
>>
>> http://w3.iac.net/~curta/bp/velocityN/velocity.html
>>
>> Plug in 200 watts with a 100 kg total weight consisting of a 90 kg
>> rider and a 10 kg bike. A 6% slope produces a speed of 10.438321 km/h.
>>
>> Drop the total weight 1% by changing to a 9 kg bike, and speed rises
>> to 10.535252 km/h.
>>
>> 10.535252 / 10.438321 = 1.0093, a 0.93% speed increase
>>
>> Drop the total weight 10% by taking 10 kg off the rider (~22 lbs of
>> impressive dieting) and leaving the bike at 10 kg, and speed rises to
>> 11.487388 km/h.
>>
>> 11.487388 / 10.438321 = 1.1005, a 10.05% speed increase
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>
>yep, assuming all things, including the riders 'output' is both
>predicable and equal, day to day..which of course, it isn't.
Dear Peter,
Sorry, but physics is relentless. When you're just plain wrong,
arguing about the results of power is silly.
Within any reasonable range of power and on any day, the rider will be
1% faster up the hill if he's on on the bicycle that's 1% lighter, no
matter whether we predict his power or not.
The daily power variation is just a red herring.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| | | |
Date: 10 Jun 2007 20:24:10
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> Within any reasonable range of power and on any day, the rider will be
> 1% faster up the hill if he's on on the bicycle that's 1% lighter, no
> matter whether we predict his power or not.
No. He will be 1% faster if the whole package (bike and rider) is 1%
lighter. This, for me, would be a bike that is 10% or so lighter.
--
David L. Johnson
Let's not escape into mathematics. Let's stay with reality.
-- Michael Crichton
|
| | | | |
Date: 10 Jun 2007 18:32:55
From:
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 20:24:10 -0400, "David L. Johnson"
<david.johnson@lehigh.edu > wrote:
>carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>
>> Within any reasonable range of power and on any day, the rider will be
>> 1% faster up the hill if he's on on the bicycle that's 1% lighter, no
>> matter whether we predict his power or not.
>
>No. He will be 1% faster if the whole package (bike and rider) is 1%
>lighter. This, for me, would be a bike that is 10% or so lighter.
Dear David,
True--you've picked the one careless sentence from a lengthy post.
As the rest of the post (and several followups) clearly explained, 1%
of the total weight.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| | | |
Date: 10 Jun 2007 13:58:13
From: still me
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 22:34:43 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>Within any reasonable range of power and on any day, the rider will be
>1% faster up the hill if he's on on the bicycle that's 1% lighter, no
>matter whether we predict his power or not.
I won't argue the suggested physics since I'm not qualified, but this
seems to fail the smell test.
I'm not just hauling the bike up the hill, I'm hauling me. The bike
represents only a small proportion of the total weight. If the bike
weighs 20lb, and I weigh 200, the bike is only 10% of the total
weight. Reducing the bike's weight by 1% creates no corresponding 1%
drop in the total package weight. If it was just the bike going up the
hill, I'd buy in to this proposal, but it's me too.
If I'm wrong, please enlighten me.
|
| | | | |
Date: 10 Jun 2007 14:59:45
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
"still me" <wheeledBob@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:7c0o63l9qdq7ejsh7mo2llik39gselehia@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 22:34:43 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>
>>Within any reasonable range of power and on any day, the rider will be
>>1% faster up the hill if he's on on the bicycle that's 1% lighter, no
>>matter whether we predict his power or not.
>
>
> I won't argue the suggested physics since I'm not qualified, but this
> seems to fail the smell test.
>
> I'm not just hauling the bike up the hill, I'm hauling me. The bike
> represents only a small proportion of the total weight. If the bike
> weighs 20lb, and I weigh 200, the bike is only 10% of the total
> weight. Reducing the bike's weight by 1% creates no corresponding 1%
> drop in the total package weight. If it was just the bike going up the
> hill, I'd buy in to this proposal, but it's me too.
>
> If I'm wrong, please enlighten me.
>
Picking nits, the bike would only be 9% 20+200=220 20/220= 0.0909...
|
| | | | |
Date: 10 Jun 2007 11:58:20
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
still me wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 22:34:43 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>
>> Within any reasonable range of power and on any day, the rider will be
>> 1% faster up the hill if he's on on the bicycle that's 1% lighter, no
>> matter whether we predict his power or not.
>
>
> I won't argue the suggested physics since I'm not qualified, but this
> seems to fail the smell test.
>
> I'm not just hauling the bike up the hill, I'm hauling me. The bike
> represents only a small proportion of the total weight. If the bike
> weighs 20lb, and I weigh 200, the bike is only 10% of the total
> weight. Reducing the bike's weight by 1% creates no corresponding 1%
> drop in the total package weight. If it was just the bike going up the
> hill, I'd buy in to this proposal, but it's me too.
>
> If I'm wrong, please enlighten me.
>
>
fogel explains perfectly. read and learn. and i'll take a 36 second
advantage on a climb any day.
|
| | | | |
Date: 10 Jun 2007 12:50:28
From:
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 13:58:13 GMT, still me <wheeledBob@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 22:34:43 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>
>>Within any reasonable range of power and on any day, the rider will be
>>1% faster up the hill if he's on on the bicycle that's 1% lighter, no
>>matter whether we predict his power or not.
>
>
>I won't argue the suggested physics since I'm not qualified, but this
>seems to fail the smell test.
>
>I'm not just hauling the bike up the hill, I'm hauling me. The bike
>represents only a small proportion of the total weight. If the bike
>weighs 20lb, and I weigh 200, the bike is only 10% of the total
>weight. Reducing the bike's weight by 1% creates no corresponding 1%
>drop in the total package weight. If it was just the bike going up the
>hill, I'd buy in to this proposal, but it's me too.
>
>If I'm wrong, please enlighten me.
Dear Me,
The examples show what happens when you reduce the _total_ weight 1%
and 10%.
The 1% represents a roughly 2 lb drop, plausible on a bike (and about
10% of the bike's weight).
The 10% represents Peter's comment that if he lost 20 pounds himself,
it would be like having a 0 pound bike.
Run through the arithmetic.
90 kg rider + 10 kg bike = 100 kg to trundle up the hill
90 kg rider + 9 kg bike = 99 kg
(The 10 kg bike has lost 10 % of its 1 kg weight, so the total weight
has dropped only 10%-of-10%, which means 1% of the total.)
80 kg rider + 10 kg bike = 90 kg -- that's 10% less total weight
(The rider has lost 10 kg of his 90 kg weight, which is 10% of the
total weight of 100 kg.)
Since almost all of the drag at low hill climb speeds is just raising
the total weight of the bike and rider uphill, a 1% drop in the total
weight (about 1 kg/2 lbs off the bike) increases speed about 1%.
If you reduced the weight of the _bike_ only 1%, that would be 0.1% of
the total weight and only a roughly 0.1% speed increase--a tenth of
the already small amount that was mentioned.
Physics is brutally simple in brutally simple situations. The same
power lifts a smaller weight faster.
If 9o kg Peter pedals his 10 kg bicycle up a 6-mile hill at 6 mph in
exactly one hour (3600 seconds), then we know that removing 1 kg from
his bike would have shaved about 36 seconds off his time. The same
power will raise a smaller weight faster.
(A good calculator will give a slightly different answer than 36
seconds because the faintly higher speed involves a tiny bit more wind
drag and tiny bit less rolling resistance.)
Similarly, we know that _adding_ 1 kg to Peter's bicycle would have
slowed him down about 36 seconds. The same power would have taken
slightly longer to raise a heavier weight.
(And no, 36 seconds per hour doesn't matter much to recreational
riders. And yes, Peter's speed up the hill over a month could easily
vary more than 36 seconds--but it will vary from an average that is 36
seconds different than it would have been. The variation is a red
herring or innumeracy.)
As for a smell test, think about the claim that a 1% (~2 lb) _total_
weight reduction makes no difference in climbing.
The obvious corollary is that a 1% total weight _increase_ makes no
difference, either.
Imagine that you're standing at the foot of the Alp d'Huez.
"Lance, here's a seat-bag with a four-pound metal good-luck charm. I'm
sure that it won't slow you--okay, how carrying a two-pound chunk of
good luck up the mountain?"
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| | | | | |
Date: 10 Jun 2007 20:27:55
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 22:34:43 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>>
>>> Within any reasonable range of power and on any day, the rider will be
>>> 1% faster up the hill if he's on on the bicycle that's 1% lighter, no
>>> matter whether we predict his power or not.
<snip >
> Run through the arithmetic.
> If you reduced the weight of the _bike_ only 1%, that would be 0.1% of
> the total weight and only a roughly 0.1% speed increase--a tenth of
> the already small amount that was mentioned.
But that is what you said.
--
David L. Johnson
Let's not escape into mathematics. Let's stay with reality.
-- Michael Crichton
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 10 Jun 2007 18:33:40
From:
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 20:27:55 -0400, "David L. Johnson"
<david.johnson@lehigh.edu > wrote:
>carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>
>>> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 22:34:43 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>>>
>>>> Within any reasonable range of power and on any day, the rider will be
>>>> 1% faster up the hill if he's on on the bicycle that's 1% lighter, no
>>>> matter whether we predict his power or not.
>
><snip>
>
>> Run through the arithmetic.
>
>> If you reduced the weight of the _bike_ only 1%, that would be 0.1% of
>> the total weight and only a roughly 0.1% speed increase--a tenth of
>> the already small amount that was mentioned.
>
>But that is what you said.
Dear David,
As the rest of the lengthy post (and several followups) clearly
explained, 1% of total weight.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| | | | | |
Date: 10 Jun 2007 20:24:46
From: still me
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:50:28 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>Dear Me,
>
>The examples show what happens when you reduce the _total_ weight 1%
>and 10%.
Thanks... I was misreading that. Makes more sense.
|
| |
Date: 09 Jun 2007 07:05:32
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Jun 7, 7:46 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> > The following was a $$$urprise! BUT Consdier cycle tire labor costs/
> > materials, cost of carbon frames: bolt together v laid up together.
> > There's always the question now: is this a Chinese paddle with USA/
> > Euro pricing? And profit, without market effects like Surly?
> >http://www.epickayaks.com/products/?nid=664
>
> ----------
> Speaking of the devil, I just bought a carbon fiber paddle yesterday,
> and YES the PRICE was outrageous. Paddle weights range from 25 oz to 40 oz.
> I saw some statistic that even a 2 oz difference in paddles adds up to huge
> amount of weight difference that you had to lift paddleing in one day. To
> compare it to bikes, the difference in paddle weights and materials are very
> apparent, and sometimes are the difference in even being able to paddle 6
> hours or not. With bikes, to be truthfull, I really don't feel a difference
> between a 22 lb bike and a 20 lb bike, geometry and fit is what I really
> feel.
Cuz with paddling, you ARE lifting the the paddle but not your body
weight. With a bike, you are 'lifting' the bike and your body..so a 2
pound difference is only about 1% of the total, and reducing the
weight by 1% does not mean you will be 1% faster up the hill. I tell
the boys with 15 pound bikes that if I lose 20 pounds it's like I just
bought a zero pound bike...
|
| | |
Date: 09 Jun 2007 12:58:47
From:
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 07:05:32 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo
<peter@vecchios.com > wrote:
>On Jun 7, 7:46 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > The following was a $$$urprise! BUT Consdier cycle tire labor costs/
>> > materials, cost of carbon frames: bolt together v laid up together.
>> > There's always the question now: is this a Chinese paddle with USA/
>> > Euro pricing? And profit, without market effects like Surly?
>> >http://www.epickayaks.com/products/?nid=664
>>
>> ----------
>> Speaking of the devil, I just bought a carbon fiber paddle yesterday,
>> and YES the PRICE was outrageous. Paddle weights range from 25 oz to 40 oz.
>> I saw some statistic that even a 2 oz difference in paddles adds up to huge
>> amount of weight difference that you had to lift paddleing in one day. To
>> compare it to bikes, the difference in paddle weights and materials are very
>> apparent, and sometimes are the difference in even being able to paddle 6
>> hours or not. With bikes, to be truthfull, I really don't feel a difference
>> between a 22 lb bike and a 20 lb bike, geometry and fit is what I really
>> feel.
>
>Cuz with paddling, you ARE lifting the the paddle but not your body
>weight. With a bike, you are 'lifting' the bike and your body..so a 2
>pound difference is only about 1% of the total, and reducing the
>weight by 1% does not mean you will be 1% faster up the hill. I tell
>the boys with 15 pound bikes that if I lose 20 pounds it's like I just
>bought a zero pound bike...
Dear Peter,
Actually, a 1% total weight reduction _does_ increase a bicyclist's
speed about 1% up a hill.
On hills, a rider's main effort goes into raising his weight, and
typical riders go so slowly that wind drag becomes negligiible.
But we don't notice 1% speed increases up hills because the hills are
so short, we're going so slowly, and the speed change is so tiny that
it's lost in ordinary variation--a 1% speed increase up a 6 mile climb
at 6 miles per hour amounts to 36 seconds per hour.
Here's a calculator detailed enough to show the difference:
http://w3.iac.net/~curta/bp/velocityN/velocity.html
Plug in 200 watts with a 100 kg total weight consisting of a 90 kg
rider and a 10 kg bike. A 6% slope produces a speed of 10.438321 km/h.
Drop the total weight 1% by changing to a 9 kg bike, and speed rises
to 10.535252 km/h.
10.535252 / 10.438321 = 1.0093, a 0.93% speed increase
Drop the total weight 10% by taking 10 kg off the rider (~22 lbs of
impressive dieting) and leaving the bike at 10 kg, and speed rises to
11.487388 km/h.
11.487388 / 10.438321 = 1.1005, a 10.05% speed increase
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| | | |
Date: 09 Jun 2007 22:02:36
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
Dans le message de news:m2tl63h5sre6r4vjn59h950kul8i12c3a7@4ax.com,
carlfogel@comcast.net <carlfogel@comcast.net > a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré
:
> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 07:05:32 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo
> <peter@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 7, 7:46 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> The following was a $$$urprise! BUT Consdier cycle tire labor
>>>> costs/ materials, cost of carbon frames: bolt together v laid up
>>>> together. There's always the question now: is this a Chinese
>>>> paddle with USA/ Euro pricing? And profit, without market effects
>>>> like Surly? http://www.epickayaks.com/products/?nid=664
>>>
>>> ----------
>>> Speaking of the devil, I just bought a carbon fiber paddle
>>> yesterday, and YES the PRICE was outrageous. Paddle weights range
>>> from 25 oz to 40 oz. I saw some statistic that even a 2 oz
>>> difference in paddles adds up to huge amount of weight difference
>>> that you had to lift paddleing in one day. To compare it to bikes,
>>> the difference in paddle weights and materials are very apparent,
>>> and sometimes are the difference in even being able to paddle 6
>>> hours or not. With bikes, to be truthfull, I really don't feel a
>>> difference between a 22 lb bike and a 20 lb bike, geometry and fit
>>> is what I really feel.
>>
>> Cuz with paddling, you ARE lifting the the paddle but not your body
>> weight. With a bike, you are 'lifting' the bike and your body..so a 2
>> pound difference is only about 1% of the total, and reducing the
>> weight by 1% does not mean you will be 1% faster up the hill. I tell
>> the boys with 15 pound bikes that if I lose 20 pounds it's like I
>> just bought a zero pound bike...
>
> Dear Peter,
>
> Actually, a 1% total weight reduction _does_ increase a bicyclist's
> speed about 1% up a hill.
>
> On hills, a rider's main effort goes into raising his weight, and
> typical riders go so slowly that wind drag becomes negligiible.
>
> But we don't notice 1% speed increases up hills because the hills are
> so short, we're going so slowly, and the speed change is so tiny that
> it's lost in ordinary variation--a 1% speed increase up a 6 mile climb
> at 6 miles per hour amounts to 36 seconds per hour.
Pretty much all of that is wrong, in certain circumstances. I'll bet Cunego
noticed.
1 Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Saunier Duval - Prodir 3.51.52 (36.745 km/h)
2 Leonardo Piepoli (Ita) Saunier Duval - Prodir
3 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team CSC 0.074
Danilo Di Luca (Ita) Liquigas 0.315
Damiano Cunego (Ita) Lampre - Fondital 0.37
|
| | | | |
Date: 09 Jun 2007 22:05:56
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
Dans le message de news:466b075d$0$23639$426a74cc@news.free.fr,
Sandy <leurre@frree.fr > a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> Dans le message de news:m2tl63h5sre6r4vjn59h950kul8i12c3a7@4ax.com,
> carlfogel@comcast.net <carlfogel@comcast.net> a réfléchi, et puis a
> déclaré
>>
>> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 07:05:32 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo
>> <peter@vecchios.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Jun 7, 7:46 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>> The following was a $$$urprise! BUT Consdier cycle tire labor
>>>>> costs/ materials, cost of carbon frames: bolt together v laid up
>>>>> together. There's always the question now: is this a Chinese
>>>>> paddle with USA/ Euro pricing? And profit, without market effects
>>>>> like Surly? http://www.epickayaks.com/products/?nid=664
>>>>
>>>> ----------
>>>> Speaking of the devil, I just bought a carbon fiber paddle
>>>> yesterday, and YES the PRICE was outrageous. Paddle weights range
>>>> from 25 oz to 40 oz. I saw some statistic that even a 2 oz
>>>> difference in paddles adds up to huge amount of weight difference
>>>> that you had to lift paddleing in one day. To compare it to bikes,
>>>> the difference in paddle weights and materials are very apparent,
>>>> and sometimes are the difference in even being able to paddle 6
>>>> hours or not. With bikes, to be truthfull, I really don't feel a
>>>> difference between a 22 lb bike and a 20 lb bike, geometry and fit
>>>> is what I really feel.
>>>
>>> Cuz with paddling, you ARE lifting the the paddle but not your body
>>> weight. With a bike, you are 'lifting' the bike and your body..so a
>>> 2 pound difference is only about 1% of the total, and reducing the
>>> weight by 1% does not mean you will be 1% faster up the hill. I tell
>>> the boys with 15 pound bikes that if I lose 20 pounds it's like I
>>> just bought a zero pound bike...
>>
>> Dear Peter,
>>
>> Actually, a 1% total weight reduction _does_ increase a bicyclist's
>> speed about 1% up a hill.
>>
>> On hills, a rider's main effort goes into raising his weight, and
>> typical riders go so slowly that wind drag becomes negligiible.
>>
>> But we don't notice 1% speed increases up hills because the hills are
>> so short, we're going so slowly, and the speed change is so tiny that
>> it's lost in ordinary variation--a 1% speed increase up a 6 mile
>> climb at 6 miles per hour amounts to 36 seconds per hour.
>
> Pretty much all of that is wrong, in certain circumstances. I'll bet
> Cunego noticed.
>
> 1 Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Saunier Duval - Prodir 3.51.52 (36.745
> km/h) 2 Leonardo Piepoli (Ita) Saunier Duval - Prodir
> 3 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team CSC 0.074
> Danilo Di Luca (Ita) Liquigas 0.315
> Damiano Cunego (Ita) Lampre - Fondital 0.37
Forgot to mention Mt Zoncolan was the venue. Not a short hill.
|
| |
Date: 08 Jun 2007 14:26:51
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Jun 8, 9:15 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net > wrote:
> In article <gbbai.14688$296.14...@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > When a big wave crashes over you, and you go under
> > > and
> > > > then pop up, you scream, "bring it on, .....I'm still here."
> > > > It's very primal, it's you against mother nature and all that it
> > > > can throw at you. I've literally been shaking in fear, in some of
> > > > the situations I've gotten into, it can be plenty scary at times.
>
> > > No, it's stop... let me change my undies....
>
> > > Chas.
> > ------------- when I use to race, I could never pee while riding, I
> > always had to stop. Don't know why, I just couldn't do it. In
> > kayaking it's not a problem, the ocean just washes everything away
> > anyway. Sitting normally, not perched like on a bike it's easy to
> > pee. And besides, I drink beer while I kayak, so peeing while
> > paddling is a necessity, also the beer helps with the courage when it
> > gets rough.
>
> > If your talking about doing #2, just jump in the water, hold on to
> > the kayak with one hand, use the other to do the job, when finished,
> > get back into the boat. If anyone is in eyesight, they don't have a
> > clue what you're doing.
>
> OK, we've passed over into the stupid (drinking while boating) and the
> disgusting...-
RBT = rec.bicycles.topic-drift
|
| |
Date: 08 Jun 2007 05:58:16
From: andresmuro@aol.com
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Jun 7, 9:20 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Jun 2007 20:12:08 -0700, "* * Chas"
>
>
>
> <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
> >"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote in message
> >news:t02h63lrj6uh325g6m8c37qeqfpfe8anbv@4ax.com...
> >> On Thu, 7 Jun 2007 11:26:20 -0700, "* * Chas"
> >> <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
> >> >The Colombians played dirty tricks, sticking their pumps in your wheels
> >> >and then after the races they wanted to buy all of your stuff.
>
> >> You're telling me you in races where some riders routinely did stuff
> >> that will blatantly make another rider crash, or trash their wheels?
> >> I find this hard to believe. Were there fights after the races? I
> >> dont' see how there could not be either suspensions or fights or both.
> >> Or cops called.
>
> >Yes, in Juarez, Mexico. The Colombians were dirty players. I've heard tell
> >years ago the pros used to do the same thing.
>
> >You don't want to get into a fight or cause any kind of disturbance in
> >Mexico or a lot of other countries for that matter if you want to leave
> >town on your own schedule.
>
> Let me get this straight -- the pumps were stuck in your wheels more
> than once but you guys went back?
>
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************
I used to go to to the Juarez crits in the 80s. I wasn't very good
plus I never got much into racing. However, in the 80s, they were
pretty safe and friendly. Juarez riders and organizers were very nice
to Americans and they would welcome them with open arms. The crit
season in juarez would start in February and lots of Americans form
the southwest would come to Juarez to race, Kent Bostik, clay moseley,
John frey, Carol Rogers and Patsy King were usually racing in the
crits during February and march. Also, many top level mexican cyclists
would compete. it was fun to go and watch the crits. The few times I
raced I rode in the men's beginner race. The women would race with the
beginner men because there were not enough women to have a separate
crit. I got to race against Patsy King twice. she kicked everyones
ass. I remember that Carol Rogers used to race in the men's elite
race.
Andres
|
| | |
Date: 08 Jun 2007 09:49:08
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
<andresmuro@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1181307496.297594.218920@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 7, 9:20 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> wrote:
> > On Thu, 7 Jun 2007 20:12:08 -0700, "* * Chas"
> >
> >
> >
> > <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> >
> > >"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote in message
> > >news:t02h63lrj6uh325g6m8c37qeqfpfe8anbv@4ax.com...
> > >> On Thu, 7 Jun 2007 11:26:20 -0700, "* * Chas"
> > >> <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> >The Colombians played dirty tricks, sticking their pumps in your
wheels
> > >> >and then after the races they wanted to buy all of your stuff.
> >
> > >> You're telling me you in races where some riders routinely did
stuff
> > >> that will blatantly make another rider crash, or trash their
wheels?
> > >> I find this hard to believe. Were there fights after the races? I
> > >> dont' see how there could not be either suspensions or fights or
both.
> > >> Or cops called.
> >
> > >Yes, in Juarez, Mexico. The Colombians were dirty players. I've heard
tell
> > >years ago the pros used to do the same thing.
> >
> > >You don't want to get into a fight or cause any kind of disturbance
in
> > >Mexico or a lot of other countries for that matter if you want to
leave
> > >town on your own schedule.
> >
> > Let me get this straight -- the pumps were stuck in your wheels more
> > than once but you guys went back?
> >
> > --
> > JT
> > ****************************
> > Remove "remove" to reply
> > Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
> > ****************************
>
> I used to go to to the Juarez crits in the 80s. I wasn't very good
> plus I never got much into racing. However, in the 80s, they were
> pretty safe and friendly. Juarez riders and organizers were very nice
> to Americans and they would welcome them with open arms. The crit
> season in juarez would start in February and lots of Americans form
> the southwest would come to Juarez to race, Kent Bostik, clay moseley,
> John frey, Carol Rogers and Patsy King were usually racing in the
> crits during February and march. Also, many top level mexican cyclists
> would compete. it was fun to go and watch the crits. The few times I
> raced I rode in the men's beginner race. The women would race with the
> beginner men because there were not enough women to have a separate
> crit. I got to race against Patsy King twice. she kicked everyones
> ass. I remember that Carol Rogers used to race in the men's elite
> race.
>
> Andres
>
In the mid to late 1970s a lot of the better US riders spent the winter
months training in the Southwest US.
Tucson, AZ and Las Cruces, NM were two of the places they congregated
because the weather was good and the cost of living was low. John Howard
and John(?) Timbers were 2 riders that come to mind who frequented events
in the region.
In the Juarez Crits the Mexican riders were generally gracious to us but
there was always a lot of pushing and shoving in the pack. One of our guys
knew some of the Colombian riders that he used to race against in Florida.
He warned us about them so we gave them wide berth. I remember one or two
incidents of pumps in wheels or attempts at it. That was 30+ years ago.
We felt badly about some of the riders. They couldn't afford much in the
way of equipment but they rode hard. The average income in NM was about
$6,000/yr. vs. $16,000/yr. for the rest of the US and $1,500? for Mexico.
I remember giving several riders that we knew our spare (used tires - we
didn't have that much ourselves) sewups after the races.
Chas.
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 21:09:41
From: Johnny Sunset
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Jun 7, 10:47 pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <1181271692.139201.153...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> Johnny Sunset wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 7, 9:43 pm, Donald Gillies wrote:
> > > "Callistus Valerius" writes:
> > > > When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price
> > > > of
> > > >$2100. It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007
> > > >Madone 6.9 lists for $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone
> > > >2008 price, but I expect it will break the $10,000 mark. Can
> > > >anyone convince me that this bike will be $8000 better than my
> > > >Trek 5200?
>
> > > In 1977 when i got my first job computer programming, the top bike
> > > from an upper-chicago/lower-wisconsin bike maker cost $675 (Schwinn
> > > Paramount).
>
> > > Since 1977, inflation has changed what cost $675 back then into
> > > something costing $2309 today (?!?!). BUT, now the top bike from
> > > an upper-chicago/lower-wisconsin bike maker costs $10,000 (TREK?)
> > > And, if I fork over $2309 to the shop that still makes Schwinn
> > > Paramounts (Waterford), rather than a bike I'd only get a frameset
> > > !??!!?....
>
> > $750 for the frame only, $1000 with Gunnar fork: <http://
> >www.gunnarbikes.com/roadie.php>, leaving $1300 for components. Made
> > in the same building as Waterford's.
>
> Yabbut TIG's instead of brazed, and not to custom measurement. That
> said, I had a Gunnar Crosshairs for five years or so and it was a very
> nice riding bike. The handling was excellent. Just not all that
> aesthetic.
Custom geometry raises the price of a Gunnar frame from $750 to $1075.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
|
| | |
Date: 08 Jun 2007 09:17:00
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
In article <1181275781.210789.53720@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com >,
Johnny Sunset <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Jun 7, 10:47 pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <1181271692.139201.153...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> > Johnny Sunset wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jun 7, 9:43 pm, Donald Gillies wrote:
> > > > "Callistus Valerius" writes:
> > > > > When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price
> > > > > of
> > > > >$2100. It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007
> > > > >Madone 6.9 lists for $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone
> > > > >2008 price, but I expect it will break the $10,000 mark. Can
> > > > >anyone convince me that this bike will be $8000 better than my
> > > > >Trek 5200?
> >
> > > > In 1977 when i got my first job computer programming, the top bike
> > > > from an upper-chicago/lower-wisconsin bike maker cost $675 (Schwinn
> > > > Paramount).
> >
> > > > Since 1977, inflation has changed what cost $675 back then into
> > > > something costing $2309 today (?!?!). BUT, now the top bike from
> > > > an upper-chicago/lower-wisconsin bike maker costs $10,000 (TREK?)
> > > > And, if I fork over $2309 to the shop that still makes Schwinn
> > > > Paramounts (Waterford), rather than a bike I'd only get a frameset
> > > > !??!!?....
> >
> > > $750 for the frame only, $1000 with Gunnar fork: <http://
> > >www.gunnarbikes.com/roadie.php>, leaving $1300 for components. Made
> > > in the same building as Waterford's.
> >
> > Yabbut TIG's instead of brazed, and not to custom measurement. That
> > said, I had a Gunnar Crosshairs for five years or so and it was a very
> > nice riding bike. The handling was excellent. Just not all that
> > aesthetic.
>
> Custom geometry raises the price of a Gunnar frame from $750 to $1075.
A *very* good price for a custom geometry frame. You know, a standard
Gunnar frame is not much more expensive than a Surly and is of much
higher quality.
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 20:01:32
From: Johnny Sunset
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Jun 7, 9:43 pm, Donald Gillies wrote:
> "Callistus Valerius" writes:
> > When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of
> >$2100. It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007
> >Madone 6.9 lists for $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008
> >price, but I expect it will break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone
> >convince me that this bike will be $8000 better than my Trek 5200?
>
> In 1977 when i got my first job computer programming, the top bike
> from an upper-chicago/lower-wisconsin bike maker cost $675 (Schwinn
> Paramount).
>
> Since 1977, inflation has changed what cost $675 back then into
> something costing $2309 today (?!?!). BUT, now the top bike from an
> upper-chicago/lower-wisconsin bike maker costs $10,000 (TREK?) And,
> if I fork over $2309 to the shop that still makes Schwinn Paramounts
> (Waterford), rather than a bike I'd only get a frameset !??!!?....
$750 for the frame only, $1000 with Gunnar fork: <http://
www.gunnarbikes.com/roadie.php >, leaving $1300 for components. Made in
the same building as Waterford's.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 22:47:20
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
In article <1181271692.139201.153100@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com >,
Johnny Sunset <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Jun 7, 9:43 pm, Donald Gillies wrote:
> > "Callistus Valerius" writes:
> > > When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price
> > > of
> > >$2100. It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007
> > >Madone 6.9 lists for $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone
> > >2008 price, but I expect it will break the $10,000 mark. Can
> > >anyone convince me that this bike will be $8000 better than my
> > >Trek 5200?
> >
> > In 1977 when i got my first job computer programming, the top bike
> > from an upper-chicago/lower-wisconsin bike maker cost $675 (Schwinn
> > Paramount).
> >
> > Since 1977, inflation has changed what cost $675 back then into
> > something costing $2309 today (?!?!). BUT, now the top bike from
> > an upper-chicago/lower-wisconsin bike maker costs $10,000 (TREK?)
> > And, if I fork over $2309 to the shop that still makes Schwinn
> > Paramounts (Waterford), rather than a bike I'd only get a frameset
> > !??!!?....
>
> $750 for the frame only, $1000 with Gunnar fork: <http://
> www.gunnarbikes.com/roadie.php>, leaving $1300 for components. Made
> in the same building as Waterford's.
Yabbut TIG's instead of brazed, and not to custom measurement. That
said, I had a Gunnar Crosshairs for five years or so and it was a very
nice riding bike. The handling was excellent. Just not all that
aesthetic.
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 19:43:13
From: Donald Gillies
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
"Callistus Valerius" <jazzyboss@hotmail.com > writes:
> When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of
>$2100. It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007
>Madone 6.9 lists for $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008
>price, but I expect it will break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone
>convince me that this bike will be $8000 better than my Trek 5200?
In 1977 when i got my first job computer programming, the top bike
from an upper-chicago/lower-wisconsin bike maker cost $675 (Schwinn
Paramount).
Since 1977, inflation has changed what cost $675 back then into
something costing $2309 today (?!?!). BUT, now the top bike from an
upper-chicago/lower-wisconsin bike maker costs $10,000 (TREK?) And,
if I fork over $2309 to the shop that still makes Schwinn Paramounts
(Waterford), rather than a bike I'd only get a frameset !??!!?
I never knew that I had it so good back in my high school days ... I
make the big bucks today, but the big bikes have increased faster than
the my big bucks ...
Sheesh.
- Don Gillies, PhD
San Diego, CA
|
| | |
Date: 08 Jun 2007 14:28:20
From: catzz66
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
Donald Gillies wrote:
>
>
> In 1977 when i got my first job computer programming, the top bike
> from an upper-chicago/lower-wisconsin bike maker cost $675 (Schwinn
> Paramount).
>
> Since 1977, inflation has changed what cost $675 back then into
> something costing $2309 today (?!?!). BUT, now the top bike from an
> upper-chicago/lower-wisconsin bike maker costs $10,000 (TREK?) And,
> if I fork over $2309 to the shop that still makes Schwinn Paramounts
> (Waterford), rather than a bike I'd only get a frameset !??!!?
>
>
DG is right on regarding a current price. There's an inflation
calculator about 2/3 down on the first screen you see.
http://www.bls.gov/cpi/
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 18:07:27
From: andresmuro@aol.com
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Jun 7, 1:33 pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net > wrote:
> andresm...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Jun 7, 5:30 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of $2100.
> >> It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9 lists for
> >> $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect it will
> >> break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike will be $8000
> >> better than my Trek 5200? Harley-Davidson has demographic studies, and they
> >> know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to have to
> >> put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or face
> >> plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future too, or
> >> will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess if my 5200 frame
> >> ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
>
> > Yeah! Bikes in the thousands of dollars are very common today. That is
> > because, with the growth in popularity, upper income people started
> > getting involved. I've been riding for the past 20 years and until
> > around 1998, the cyclists in El Paso were pretty much the same group
> > with a few youngsters every so often and a cyclist moving in from out
> > of town. Local bike shops were hardly making it. Since 2001, cycling
> > became a very popular sport and also became sort of the new golf for
> > the upper classes. So, our rides started to add groups of people with
> > lots of disposable income with more and more expensive bikes.
>
> > I think that that has been great. It used to be that the 7:00 am
> > meeting place had approx 10 to 20 cyclists at the most, on weekends.
> > Now, there are hundreds of people leaving at different times and of
> > all levels from the meeting spot. Rides with 20 plus people leaving on
> > a weekend are easy to find all over town with groups of all levels.
>
> > Also, this has been good for local bike shops and the local economy.
> > there was a time that the local bike shop was on its way out. Cyclists
> > like me used to buy one pair of shorts a year, ten tubes and do all
> > our repairs. Now, people are buying these insanely expensive bikes and
> > have the bike shop do all the repairs and maintenance.
>
> > At the same time, cheap bikes are not uncommon. You can easily buy a
> > frame and fork online for about $200. They are light and well built.
> > Also, you can buy a complete bike with tiagra or 105 frame and carbon
> > fork for less than $1,000 locally and a lot less than that online.
> > These bikes are just as good as the more expensive bikes, ride nice
> > and can be used for racing, training, etc.
>
> > So, I think that it has been great for cycling to have more people
> > getting involved. Cops are nicer to cyclists. A lot of law enforcement
> > are cyclist themselves and they work on their bikes. Communities are
> > putting more bike lanes and traffic is respecting cyclists more.
>
> > When a bike shop carries several $5000+ bikes, there must be people
> > buying them. Those people have more pull at city council meetings and
> > other community events. Developers are starting to take into account
> > cycling in communities, etc.
>
> > So, overall, we went from being a sport of hippies, gypsies, Martians
> > and college students to a well established sport. I think that is a
> > good thing.
>
> > Andres
>
> Ok, Andres,
> How do I find out about the weekend (or for that matter, weekday) rides
> in El Paso?
>
> I pass through on trips to Dallas. I've only ridden there once, Easter
> Sunday, 1990. I had a nice ride while the girls were at Sunrise Mass,
> but I had no idea where to go. (Of course, I could have ridden on I-10
> at that time, on that day. When we headed east after the Mass ended, I
> think I probably drove 50 miles before I saw another car.
> Colin
send me an email andresmuro@aol.com
The meeting place is called river run plaza and it is on country club
road. If you go there at around 7:30ish or so, you'll run into a lot
of cyclists. you can call the local shops: crazy cat cyclery, richards
cycle sports, revolution organize a lot of rides.
Andres
|
| | |
Date: 08 Jun 2007 17:48:50
From: Colin Campbell
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
andresmuro@aol.com wrote:
> On Jun 7, 1:33 pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>> andresm...@aol.com wrote:
>>> On Jun 7, 5:30 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of $2100.
>>>> It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9 lists for
>>>> $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect it will
>>>> break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike will be $8000
>>>> better than my Trek 5200? Harley-Davidson has demographic studies, and they
>>>> know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to have to
>>>> put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or face
>>>> plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future too, or
>>>> will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess if my 5200 frame
>>>> ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
>>> Yeah! Bikes in the thousands of dollars are very common today. That is
>>> because, with the growth in popularity, upper income people started
>>> getting involved. I've been riding for the past 20 years and until
>>> around 1998, the cyclists in El Paso were pretty much the same group
>>> with a few youngsters every so often and a cyclist moving in from out
>>> of town. Local bike shops were hardly making it. Since 2001, cycling
>>> became a very popular sport and also became sort of the new golf for
>>> the upper classes. So, our rides started to add groups of people with
>>> lots of disposable income with more and more expensive bikes.
>>> I think that that has been great. It used to be that the 7:00 am
>>> meeting place had approx 10 to 20 cyclists at the most, on weekends.
>>> Now, there are hundreds of people leaving at different times and of
>>> all levels from the meeting spot. Rides with 20 plus people leaving on
>>> a weekend are easy to find all over town with groups of all levels.
>>> Also, this has been good for local bike shops and the local economy.
>>> there was a time that the local bike shop was on its way out. Cyclists
>>> like me used to buy one pair of shorts a year, ten tubes and do all
>>> our repairs. Now, people are buying these insanely expensive bikes and
>>> have the bike shop do all the repairs and maintenance.
>>> At the same time, cheap bikes are not uncommon. You can easily buy a
>>> frame and fork online for about $200. They are light and well built.
>>> Also, you can buy a complete bike with tiagra or 105 frame and carbon
>>> fork for less than $1,000 locally and a lot less than that online.
>>> These bikes are just as good as the more expensive bikes, ride nice
>>> and can be used for racing, training, etc.
>>> So, I think that it has been great for cycling to have more people
>>> getting involved. Cops are nicer to cyclists. A lot of law enforcement
>>> are cyclist themselves and they work on their bikes. Communities are
>>> putting more bike lanes and traffic is respecting cyclists more.
>>> When a bike shop carries several $5000+ bikes, there must be people
>>> buying them. Those people have more pull at city council meetings and
>>> other community events. Developers are starting to take into account
>>> cycling in communities, etc.
>>> So, overall, we went from being a sport of hippies, gypsies, Martians
>>> and college students to a well established sport. I think that is a
>>> good thing.
>>> Andres
>> Ok, Andres,
>> How do I find out about the weekend (or for that matter, weekday) rides
>> in El Paso?
>>
>> I pass through on trips to Dallas. I've only ridden there once, Easter
>> Sunday, 1990. I had a nice ride while the girls were at Sunrise Mass,
>> but I had no idea where to go. (Of course, I could have ridden on I-10
>> at that time, on that day. When we headed east after the Mass ended, I
>> think I probably drove 50 miles before I saw another car.
>> Colin
>
> send me an email andresmuro@aol.com
>
> The meeting place is called river run plaza and it is on country club
> road. If you go there at around 7:30ish or so, you'll run into a lot
> of cyclists. you can call the local shops: crazy cat cyclery, richards
> cycle sports, revolution organize a lot of rides.
>
> Andres
>
>
Thanks, Andres, you may be hearing from me!
Colin
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 22:41:49
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Jun 7, 5:30 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Jun 7, 3:59 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
>
>
>
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Jun 7, 11:29 am, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
> > > "Marcus Coles" <marco...@ody.ca> wrote in message
>
> > >news:46680024$0$7166$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>
> > > > Callistus Valerius wrote:
> > > > > When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of
> > > $2100.
> > > > > It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9
> > > lists for
> > > > > $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect it
> > > will
> > > > > break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike will be
> > > $8000
> > > > > better than my Trek 5200? Harley-Davidson has demographic studies,
> > > and they
> > > > > know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to
> > > have to
> > > > > put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or
> > > face
> > > > > plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future
> > > too, or
> > > > > will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess if my 5200
> > > frame
> > > > > ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
>
> > > > Price is a factor, but not like you think.
> > > > Often at the high end people buy based on price/status/recognition.
> > > > Trek has to remain competitive in price with other high end bikes.
>
> > > > If they sold it for $4,000 it would fall below the radar of the target
> > > > market.
>
> > > > Marcus
>
> > > $8250.00 buys you a brand new dick stretcher....
>
> > > Goes along with the old "mine is bigger" syndrome.
>
> > Plus, you can use what Lance uses! A new role for those "plaster
> > casters" from long ago....
>
> http://www.cynthiaplastercaster.com/flash/home.html
>
> Cynthia's still at it
Hey, Trek should sign her up; a CFRP "plaster cast" of the lucky owner
could come as part of the Super-Duper-Better-Than-Ever Madone 9.9314.
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 22:30:48
From: landotter
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Jun 7, 3:59 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Jun 7, 11:29 am, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Marcus Coles" <marco...@ody.ca> wrote in message
>
> >news:46680024$0$7166$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>
> > > Callistus Valerius wrote:
> > > > When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of
> > $2100.
> > > > It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9
> > lists for
> > > > $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect it
> > will
> > > > break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike will be
> > $8000
> > > > better than my Trek 5200? Harley-Davidson has demographic studies,
> > and they
> > > > know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to
> > have to
> > > > put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or
> > face
> > > > plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future
> > too, or
> > > > will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess if my 5200
> > frame
> > > > ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
>
> > > Price is a factor, but not like you think.
> > > Often at the high end people buy based on price/status/recognition.
> > > Trek has to remain competitive in price with other high end bikes.
>
> > > If they sold it for $4,000 it would fall below the radar of the target
> > > market.
>
> > > Marcus
>
> > $8250.00 buys you a brand new dick stretcher....
>
> > Goes along with the old "mine is bigger" syndrome.
>
> Plus, you can use what Lance uses! A new role for those "plaster
> casters" from long ago....
http://www.cynthiaplastercaster.com/flash/home.html
Cynthia's still at it.
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 22:16:45
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Jun 7, 4:30 pm, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com > wrote:
> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1181249971.953340.8930@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 7, 11:29 am, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> > > "Marcus Coles" <marco...@ody.ca> wrote in message
>
> > >news:46680024$0$7166$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>
> > > > Callistus Valerius wrote:
> > > > > When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price
> of
> > > $2100.
> > > > > It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9
> > > lists for
> > > > > $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect
> it
> > > will
> > > > > break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike
> will be
> > > $8000
> > > > > better than my Trek 5200? Harley-Davidson has demographic
> studies,
> > > and they
> > > > > know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going
> to
> > > have to
> > > > > put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes,
> or
> > > face
> > > > > plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future
> > > too, or
> > > > > will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess if my
> 5200
> > > frame
> > > > > ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
>
> > > > Price is a factor, but not like you think.
> > > > Often at the high end people buy based on price/status/recognition.
> > > > Trek has to remain competitive in price with other high end bikes.
>
> > > > If they sold it for $4,000 it would fall below the radar of the
> target
> > > > market.
>
> > > > Marcus
>
> > > $8250.00 buys you a brand new dick stretcher....
>
> > > Goes along with the old "mine is bigger" syndrome.
>
> > Plus, you can use what Lance uses! A new role for those "plaster
> > casters" from long ago....
>
> JIMMY! JIMMY HENDRIX!
>
> Now your dating yourself... er that doesn't sound right...
>
> That wasn't exactly what I meant. I was thinking more of the manly feeling
> a new SUV and a Texas sized belt buckle gives a fella....
>
Hey, what's a day at RBT without a little "topic drift"? :-)
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 20:59:31
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Jun 7, 11:29 am, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com > wrote:
> "Marcus Coles" <marco...@ody.ca> wrote in message
>
> news:46680024$0$7166$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>
>
>
> > Callistus Valerius wrote:
> > > When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of
> $2100.
> > > It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9
> lists for
> > > $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect it
> will
> > > break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike will be
> $8000
> > > better than my Trek 5200? Harley-Davidson has demographic studies,
> and they
> > > know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to
> have to
> > > put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or
> face
> > > plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future
> too, or
> > > will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess if my 5200
> frame
> > > ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
>
> > Price is a factor, but not like you think.
> > Often at the high end people buy based on price/status/recognition.
> > Trek has to remain competitive in price with other high end bikes.
>
> > If they sold it for $4,000 it would fall below the radar of the target
> > market.
>
> > Marcus
>
> $8250.00 buys you a brand new dick stretcher....
>
> Goes along with the old "mine is bigger" syndrome.
>
Plus, you can use what Lance uses! A new role for those "plaster
casters" from long ago....
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 14:30:11
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote in message
news:1181249971.953340.8930@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 7, 11:29 am, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> > "Marcus Coles" <marco...@ody.ca> wrote in message
> >
> > news:46680024$0$7166$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> >
> >
> >
> > > Callistus Valerius wrote:
> > > > When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price
of
> > $2100.
> > > > It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9
> > lists for
> > > > $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect
it
> > will
> > > > break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike
will be
> > $8000
> > > > better than my Trek 5200? Harley-Davidson has demographic
studies,
> > and they
> > > > know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going
to
> > have to
> > > > put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes,
or
> > face
> > > > plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future
> > too, or
> > > > will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess if my
5200
> > frame
> > > > ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
> >
> > > Price is a factor, but not like you think.
> > > Often at the high end people buy based on price/status/recognition.
> > > Trek has to remain competitive in price with other high end bikes.
> >
> > > If they sold it for $4,000 it would fall below the radar of the
target
> > > market.
> >
> > > Marcus
> >
> > $8250.00 buys you a brand new dick stretcher....
> >
> > Goes along with the old "mine is bigger" syndrome.
> >
>
> Plus, you can use what Lance uses! A new role for those "plaster
> casters" from long ago....
>
JIMMY! JIMMY HENDRIX!
Now your dating yourself... er that doesn't sound right...
That wasn't exactly what I meant. I was thinking more of the manly feeling
a new SUV and a Texas sized belt buckle gives a fella....
Chas.
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 14:30:49
From: Gary Young
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 13:02:38 -0500, Tim McNamara wrote:
> <old fart warning>
>
> Back when I used to race I would often go on the Gopher Wheelmen hammer
> fest. Often there was a guy who would turn up on this old piece of crap
> (turned out to be an old lugged Colnago once I looked closely, which
> appeared to have been repainted with black Rustoleum and a toilet
> brush), with a bunch of mismatched parts. Looked like he assembled the
> bike by raiding dumpsters.
Ryan Cousineau?
> He often rode in a T-shirt and old faded
> shorts; if it was cool out he had some homemade wind tights. Every ride
> he'd be hammering away at the front with the Cat 1s and 2s groveling to
> stay on his wheel and me groveling to stay on their wheels with some Cat
> 3s in between as a buffer. If the pace dropped he'd just go back to the
> front and pull. I never saw him at a race.
>
> Another local guy, Bob "Diesel" Schwartz, used to take perverse pleasure
> in winning races on a Giant CF frame that he really did pull out of a
> dumpster. The whole bike cost him less than the wheels of the guys he'd
> beat.
>
> As the saying goes, it ain't the bike it's the motor. Must be why I
> never won races.
>
> </old fart warning>
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 13:39:38
From: ca
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
While I have to agree that bikes are terribly expensive and most of the
go fast items don't make you faster. However this comparison is a lot
like comparing the price of a Buick LeSabre to a BMW 5 or 7 series. Both
the Buick and BMW are nice cars, but not in the same category. The 5200
came with Ultegra components and reasonably normal factory built wheels.
The 6.9 has Dura Ace components and carbon fiber wheels.
A better comparison might be the 2007 Madone 5.0 at $2,800 or the 5.2 at
$3,450.
Callistus Valerius wrote:
> When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of $2100.
> It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9 lists for
> $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect it will
> break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike will be $8000
> better than my Trek 5200? Harley-Davidson has demographic studies, and they
> know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to have to
> put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or face
> plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future too, or
> will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess if my 5200 frame
> ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
>
>
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 18:39:14
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 13:39:38 -0500, ca <carnold@netins.net > wrote:
>
>While I have to agree that bikes are terribly expensive and most of the
>go fast items don't make you faster. However this comparison is a lot
>like comparing the price of a Buick LeSabre to a BMW 5 or 7 series. Both
>the Buick and BMW are nice cars, but not in the same category. The 5200
>came with Ultegra components and reasonably normal factory built wheels.
> The 6.9 has Dura Ace components and carbon fiber wheels.
>
>A better comparison might be the 2007 Madone 5.0 at $2,800 or the 5.2 at
>$3,450.
>
Or, as Peter Chisholm said, between a Camry and a Lexus. Or, in the
last year or so, between a Hyundai and a Lexus.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 11:09:23
From: bfd
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Jun 7, 8:05 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> > Hey, you're depressing the American economy! Riding the same bike for 7
> > years is NOT the American way.
>
> > Now that I have that off my chest, it must be said that in 2000, your
> > bike was not the top of the Trek line; I think the 5500 was still the
> > top of the line. So it isn't quite fair to compare the price of your
> > bike with what is now top of the line.
>
> > By the way, I bought a 2003 Trek 5200 (list was $2500, I got it on
> > Trek's 20% off sale during the TdF). I bought a 2006 5200 last August
> > (local bike shop's sale - still $2000, even though list price was up to
> > $2699).
>
> > I upgraded both of these bike to Campy Record. I am using Bontrager
> > wheels on the newer bike; they save over 1 pound versus the Campy / DT /
> > Mavic wheels on the older bike.
>
> > I believe the 5200 has now been retired. There is still a 5000 in the
> > range, listing at $1979, and a Madone SL 5.2, at $3460. I think these
> > choices "sort of" compare to your bike.
>
> ------------
> So that would be about the inflation rate. Ok, maybe I was wrong about
> that. I just saw that price and kind of lost it.
One thing not addressed so far, could this magnificent increase in
price perhaps be a ploy to raise the image of bicycles beyond the
image of a *TOY?*
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 13:26:51
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
"bfd" <bfd853@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1181239763.936637.78050@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 7, 8:05 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hey, you're depressing the American economy! Riding the same bike
for 7
> > > years is NOT the American way.
> >
> > > Now that I have that off my chest, it must be said that in 2000,
your
> > > bike was not the top of the Trek line; I think the 5500 was still
the
> > > top of the line. So it isn't quite fair to compare the price of
your
> > > bike with what is now top of the line.
> >
> > > By the way, I bought a 2003 Trek 5200 (list was $2500, I got it on
> > > Trek's 20% off sale during the TdF). I bought a 2006 5200 last
August
> > > (local bike shop's sale - still $2000, even though list price was up
to
> > > $2699).
> >
> > > I upgraded both of these bike to Campy Record. I am using Bontrager
> > > wheels on the newer bike; they save over 1 pound versus the Campy /
DT /
> > > Mavic wheels on the older bike.
> >
> > > I believe the 5200 has now been retired. There is still a 5000 in
the
> > > range, listing at $1979, and a Madone SL 5.2, at $3460. I think
these
> > > choices "sort of" compare to your bike.
> >
> > ------------
> > So that would be about the inflation rate. Ok, maybe I was wrong
about
> > that. I just saw that price and kind of lost it.
>
> One thing not addressed so far, could this magnificent increase in
> price perhaps be a ploy to raise the image of bicycles beyond the
> image of a *TOY?*
>
or... "A fool and his money are soon parted..." ;-)
Chas.
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 17:52:19
From: Kinky Cowboy
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 11:30:58 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
<jazzyboss@hotmail.com > wrote:
> When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of $2100.
>It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9 lists for
>$8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect it will
>break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike will be $8000
>better than my Trek 5200?
No, but I can probably convince you that there's a 2008 bike listed at
$2100 which is better than your Y2K 5200. Between inflation and a
weakened dollar, you'd be paying $4000 to match your old bike if
people didn't buy the bleeding edge bikes and thereby force the pace
of development.
Kinky Cowboy*
*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 09:33:24
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
Callistus Valerius wrote:
> When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of
> $2100. It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone
> 6.9 lists for $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price,
> but I expect it will break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me
> that this bike will be $8000 better than my Trek 5200?
Nope. It's not for you.
Bill "problem solved; off you go" S.
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 09:31:35
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Jun 7, 7:11 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net > wrote:
> In article <1181217022.700409.137...@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> Art Harris <n...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "Callistus Valerius" wrote:
>
> > > Harley-Davidson has demographic studies, and they know when the
> > > baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to have to put
> > > together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or
> > > face plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the
> > > future too, or will they blindly go where no man has gone before?
>
> > Well, if they're making more than twice the profit on each bike, they
> > can sell half as many and still be ahead of the game. And the amazing
> > thing is people keep buying new bikes every couple of years in search
> > of Nirvana.
>
> Ah, that's been the truth of bicycling for 125 years. Marketing-induced
> obsolescence is a major driver of continued sales amongst the high-end
> (and high-profit) enthusiast market. Lots and lots of people have gotta
> have the newerbetterfasterlighter unobtanium version because it's got to
> be newerbetterfasterlighter.
I remember that in the 60s, 70s and the first part of the 80s, nothing
much was happening in the way of market induced obsolescence. There
were some market entrants, like the various Japanese manufacturers,
but they were making Campy copies or equipment that was compatible
with existing friction shifting, five speed systems. You could buy a
'68 Masi and be state of the art until 1984 and SIS and the change
from SL/SP to SLX. There was AX and a few other oddities in there,
but no need to upgrade -- no change in chain, freewheel, chainring
standards. That frenzy occurred in the 80s.
>
> Maybe I'm just a sentimental sap. I keep bikes for years and they
> become old friends. When I hop on one it's imbued with the memories of
> many rides with friends on nice days.
What I don't understand are increasing prices for CF frames when the
manufacturing costs are going down as the technology matures. The
Chinese are going to stomp all over the high end market in a few years
-- if they can get some cachet and come up with a name that sounds
better than Scattante. I mean, really, scat = shit. -- Jay Beattie.
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 11:16:23
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
"Jay Beattie" <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com > wrote in message
news:1181233895.058708.263080@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 7, 7:11 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > In article <1181217022.700409.137...@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> > Art Harris <n...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > "Callistus Valerius" wrote:
> >
> > > > Harley-Davidson has demographic studies, and they know when the
> > > > baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to have to put
> > > > together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or
> > > > face plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the
> > > > future too, or will they blindly go where no man has gone before?
> >
> > > Well, if they're making more than twice the profit on each bike,
they
> > > can sell half as many and still be ahead of the game. And the
amazing
> > > thing is people keep buying new bikes every couple of years in
search
> > > of Nirvana.
> >
> > Ah, that's been the truth of bicycling for 125 years.
Marketing-induced
> > obsolescence is a major driver of continued sales amongst the high-end
> > (and high-profit) enthusiast market. Lots and lots of people have
gotta
> > have the newerbetterfasterlighter unobtanium version because it's got
to
> > be newerbetterfasterlighter.
>
> I remember that in the 60s, 70s and the first part of the 80s, nothing
> much was happening in the way of market induced obsolescence. There
> were some market entrants, like the various Japanese manufacturers,
> but they were making Campy copies or equipment that was compatible
> with existing friction shifting, five speed systems. You could buy a
> '68 Masi and be state of the art until 1984 and SIS and the change
> from SL/SP to SLX. There was AX and a few other oddities in there,
> but no need to upgrade -- no change in chain, freewheel, chainring
> standards. That frenzy occurred in the 80s.
>
> >
> > Maybe I'm just a sentimental sap. I keep bikes for years and they
> > become old friends. When I hop on one it's imbued with the memories
of
> > many rides with friends on nice days.
>
> What I don't understand are increasing prices for CF frames when the
> manufacturing costs are going down as the technology matures. The
> Chinese are going to stomp all over the high end market in a few years
> -- if they can get some cachet and come up with a name that sounds
> better than Scattante. I mean, really, scat = shit. -- Jay Beattie.
>
The Chinese already have the technology to make CF frames as good as any
one else thanks to US manufacturers who go over and show them how to make
their products.
I did some work with a major golf club manufacturer about 5-6 years ago.
Their CF lay-up procedure produced golf club shafts that were better
quality than anything I'd seen in the US aerospace industry.
This manufacturer was selling their clubs at about $500 USD each retail.
They first moved their manufacturing to Tijuana which cut costs in half
then took it to China where they could get the clubs made for $50 each.
They never lowered their prices to their customers.
They also taught the Chinese how to precision investment cast titanium
club heads and how to electron beam weld the head components together.
A few months after the Chinese got their manufacturing processes perfected
they started selling identical clubs on the internet for $50.00 each and
later they advertised them on late night US TV.
Let's see now, what else can you make with electron beam welded titanium
investment castings and carbon fiber composites. Well now, since a good
portion of all of the funds going into China get filtered through the PLA
you figure it out. 4000 years of expansionistic tradition.
Chas.
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 15:42:17
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
during the '60's, $1000 bought a reliable motorcycle.
but 1 shekel is now worth 9-10 billion!
about as much as anti biotics and this computer
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 18:28:06
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 15:42:17 -0000, datakoll <datakoll@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>during the '60's, $1000 bought a reliable motorcycle.
>but 1 shekel is now worth 9-10 billion!
>about as much as anti biotics and this computer
C.R.E.A.M.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 08:02:57
From: landotter
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Jun 7, 6:30 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of $2100.
> It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9 lists for
> $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect it will
> break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike will be $8000
> better than my Trek 5200?
Thank you. Guys like you help bike shops stay afloat so that guys like
me that ride the piss out of our well tuned but dinged up sub $1500
bikes can have a place to buy headset bearings.
BTW, a 105 equipped aluminum road bike like the Trek 1200 I bought in
1990 costs pretty much the same today when adjusted for inflation. I
don't know or care if Trekota has that same offering, but a lot of
other manufacturers do.
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 09:38:28
From: Gary Young
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:31:58 +0000, Callistus Valerius wrote:
>> > Speaking of the devil, I just bought a carbon fiber paddle
> yesterday,
>> > and YES the PRICE was outrageous. Paddle weights range from 25 oz to 40
> oz.
>> > I saw some statistic that even a 2 oz difference in paddles adds up to
> huge
>> > amount of weight difference that you had to lift paddleing in one day.
>>
>> Couldn't you do the same kind of math and conclude that two ounces of
>> difference between cycling shoes has a huge cumulative impact because of
>> the number of times you have to move your feet in a circle? Yet I've never
>> really noticed that magnitude of difference between one shoe and another
>> having an impact on my endurance. Pushing my weight around at a fast clip
>> or up hills seems a far more important factor. I would think the same
>> would be true of paddling -- doesn't the effort of pushing the paddle
>> through the water so outweigh the effort of lifting the paddle through air
>> that the later becomes insignificant?
> -----------
> I think you're smarter than me, because I had to read your reply several
> times. For one thing, especially in my case, arms are considerably weaker
> than legs. Try holding anything chest high and see how fatiguing it
> becomes, even holding nothing your arms eventually weaken. But I'm sure you
> are correct, it's just the magnitude, with arms 2 oz is huge, with legs
> hardly noticeable. I don't know if you're a paddler, but putting the paddle
> blade in the water is less stress than holding it up, because when it's in
> the water it's down.
No, I'm not a paddler, except on rare occasions. Just skeptical about
claimed benefits from small weight reductions. But what you say here
seems reasonable.
> In a paddle stroke, you actually put the blade
> down up front, and push the boat to the blade with your legs, and twist
> your torso. Once the boat has moved to the blade, then you have to LIFT
> it out the water, so that you can put the other blade to the front.
> That is where the energy is consumed, by lifting it out the water each
> time. And this isn't gondolering, you have to have a quick cadence.
>
> The biggest factor, is wind. The wind catching the blades, either gives
> you a push (tailwind), or it's like a brake (into the wind). Wind is
> huge in kayaking, and drafting doesn't work, I've tried it.
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 07:08:06
From: Colin Campbell
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
Callistus Valerius wrote:
> When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of $2100.
> It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9 lists for
> $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect it will
> break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike will be $8000
> better than my Trek 5200? Harley-Davidson has demographic studies, and they
> know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to have to
> put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or face
> plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future too, or
> will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess if my 5200 frame
> ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
>
>
Hey, you're depressing the American economy! Riding the same bike for 7
years is NOT the American way.
Now that I have that off my chest, it must be said that in 2000, your
bike was not the top of the Trek line; I think the 5500 was still the
top of the line. So it isn't quite fair to compare the price of your
bike with what is now top of the line.
By the way, I bought a 2003 Trek 5200 (list was $2500, I got it on
Trek's 20% off sale during the TdF). I bought a 2006 5200 last August
(local bike shop's sale - still $2000, even though list price was up to
$2699).
I upgraded both of these bike to Campy Record. I am using Bontrager
wheels on the newer bike; they save over 1 pound versus the Campy / DT /
Mavic wheels on the older bike.
I believe the 5200 has now been retired. There is still a 5000 in the
range, listing at $1979, and a Madone SL 5.2, at $3460. I think these
choices "sort of" compare to your bike.
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 15:05:59
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
> >
> Hey, you're depressing the American economy! Riding the same bike for 7
> years is NOT the American way.
>
> Now that I have that off my chest, it must be said that in 2000, your
> bike was not the top of the Trek line; I think the 5500 was still the
> top of the line. So it isn't quite fair to compare the price of your
> bike with what is now top of the line.
>
> By the way, I bought a 2003 Trek 5200 (list was $2500, I got it on
> Trek's 20% off sale during the TdF). I bought a 2006 5200 last August
> (local bike shop's sale - still $2000, even though list price was up to
> $2699).
>
> I upgraded both of these bike to Campy Record. I am using Bontrager
> wheels on the newer bike; they save over 1 pound versus the Campy / DT /
> Mavic wheels on the older bike.
>
> I believe the 5200 has now been retired. There is still a 5000 in the
> range, listing at $1979, and a Madone SL 5.2, at $3460. I think these
> choices "sort of" compare to your bike.
------------
So that would be about the inflation rate. Ok, maybe I was wrong about
that. I just saw that price and kind of lost it.
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 09:03:16
From: Gary Young
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 13:46:15 +0000, Callistus Valerius wrote:
>> The following was a $$$urprise! BUT Consdier cycle tire labor costs/
>> materials, cost of carbon frames: bolt together v laid up together.
>> There's always the question now: is this a Chinese paddle with USA/
>> Euro pricing? And profit, without market effects like Surly?
>> http://www.epickayaks.com/products/?nid=664
> ----------
> Speaking of the devil, I just bought a carbon fiber paddle yesterday,
> and YES the PRICE was outrageous. Paddle weights range from 25 oz to 40 oz.
> I saw some statistic that even a 2 oz difference in paddles adds up to huge
> amount of weight difference that you had to lift paddleing in one day.
Couldn't you do the same kind of math and conclude that two ounces of
difference between cycling shoes has a huge cumulative impact because of
the number of times you have to move your feet in a circle? Yet I've never
really noticed that magnitude of difference between one shoe and another
having an impact on my endurance. Pushing my weight around at a fast clip
or up hills seems a far more important factor. I would think the same
would be true of paddling -- doesn't the effort of pushing the paddle
through the water so outweigh the effort of lifting the paddle through air
that the later becomes insignificant?
> To compare it to bikes, the difference in paddle weights and materials
> are very apparent, and sometimes are the difference in even being able
> to paddle 6 hours or not. With bikes, to be truthfull, I really don't
> feel a difference between a 22 lb bike and a 20 lb bike, geometry and
> fit is what I really feel.
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 18:31:34
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 09:03:16 -0500, Gary Young <garyyoung3@gmail.com >
wrote:
>Couldn't you do the same kind of math and conclude that two ounces of
>difference between cycling shoes has a huge cumulative impact because of
>the number of times you have to move your feet in a circle? Yet I've never
>really noticed that magnitude of difference between one shoe and another
>having an impact on my endurance. Pushing my weight around at a fast clip
>or up hills seems a far more important factor. I would think the same
>would be true of paddling -- doesn't the effort of pushing the paddle
>through the water so outweigh the effort of lifting the paddle through air
>that the later becomes insignificant?
I made similar speculation to what you said about shoes/pedals, but
someone pointed out to me that they are counterbalanced so the weight
effect isn't so much.
With paddles, and also with cross country ski poles (and classic skis)
part of the problem with weight is that the object is constantly
stopping, then being lifted and moved forward. Not sure there is
anything analogous on a bike.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 23:16:46
From: Crescentius Vespasianus
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
>
> I made similar speculation to what you said about shoes/pedals, but
> someone pointed out to me that they are counterbalanced so the weight
> effect isn't so much.
>
> With paddles, and also with cross country ski poles (and classic skis)
> part of the problem with weight is that the object is constantly
> stopping, then being lifted and moved forward. Not sure there is
> anything analogous on a bike.
-----------
moving through snow, and water were sports before the invention of the
wheel, which changed everything. Like a local kayak club advertises by
saying, join a sport that is 2500 years old, or something like that. Think
of all the wheels on a bike, the wheels, chainrings, cassette, headset, rd
pulleys, BB, practically the whole contraption is a wheel. In a kayak you
learn to get primal, have the same feelings that maybe a caveman had in his
sporting ventures. When a big wave crashes over you, and you go under and
then pop up, you scream, "bring it on, .....I'm still here." It's very
primal, it's you against mother nature and all that it can throw at you.
I've literally been shaking in fear, in some of the situations I've gotten
into, it can be plenty scary at times.
|
| | | | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 20:03:44
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
"Crescentius Vespasianus" <jazzyboss@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:yl0ai.14422$296.2326@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > I made similar speculation to what you said about shoes/pedals, but
> > someone pointed out to me that they are counterbalanced so the weight
> > effect isn't so much.
> >
> > With paddles, and also with cross country ski poles (and classic skis)
> > part of the problem with weight is that the object is constantly
> > stopping, then being lifted and moved forward. Not sure there is
> > anything analogous on a bike.
> -----------
> moving through snow, and water were sports before the invention of the
> wheel, which changed everything. Like a local kayak club advertises by
> saying, join a sport that is 2500 years old, or something like that.
Think
> of all the wheels on a bike, the wheels, chainrings, cassette, headset,
rd
> pulleys, BB, practically the whole contraption is a wheel. In a kayak
you
> learn to get primal, have the same feelings that maybe a caveman had in
his
> sporting ventures. When a big wave crashes over you, and you go under
and
> then pop up, you scream, "bring it on, .....I'm still here." It's very
> primal, it's you against mother nature and all that it can throw at you.
> I've literally been shaking in fear, in some of the situations I've
gotten
> into, it can be plenty scary at times.
>
>
No, it's stop... let me change my undies....
Chas.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 08 Jun 2007 11:36:44
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
When a big wave crashes over you, and you go under
> and
> > then pop up, you scream, "bring it on, .....I'm still here." It's very
> > primal, it's you against mother nature and all that it can throw at you.
> > I've literally been shaking in fear, in some of the situations I've
> gotten
> > into, it can be plenty scary at times.
> >
> >
>
> No, it's stop... let me change my undies....
>
> Chas.
-------------
when I use to race, I could never pee while riding, I always had to stop.
Don't know why, I just couldn't do it. In kayaking it's not a problem, the
ocean just washes everything away anyway. Sitting normally, not perched
like on a bike it's easy to pee. And besides, I drink beer while I kayak,
so peeing while paddling is a necessity, also the beer helps with the
courage when it gets rough.
If your talking about doing #2, just jump in the water, hold on to the kayak
with one hand, use the other to do the job, when finished, get back into the
boat. If anyone is in eyesight, they don't have a clue what you're doing.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 08 Jun 2007 13:17:10
From: Bill
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
Callistus Valerius wrote:
> When a big wave crashes over you, and you go under
>> and
>>> then pop up, you scream, "bring it on, .....I'm still here." It's very
>>> primal, it's you against mother nature and all that it can throw at you.
>>> I've literally been shaking in fear, in some of the situations I've
>> gotten
>>> into, it can be plenty scary at times.
>>>
>>>
>> No, it's stop... let me change my undies....
>>
>> Chas.
> -------------
> when I use to race, I could never pee while riding, I always had to stop.
> Don't know why, I just couldn't do it. In kayaking it's not a problem, the
> ocean just washes everything away anyway. Sitting normally, not perched
> like on a bike it's easy to pee. And besides, I drink beer while I kayak,
> so peeing while paddling is a necessity, also the beer helps with the
> courage when it gets rough.
>
> If your talking about doing #2, just jump in the water, hold on to the kayak
> with one hand, use the other to do the job, when finished, get back into the
> boat. If anyone is in eyesight, they don't have a clue what you're doing.
>
>
Great mental image. I used to joke about the fish f**king in it or the
bear taking a dump, but you have managed to give it a unique
perspective. I will water a tree, and have had to 'you know what' once
but that was on the dry land, and the creek was a wash up point.
Now I carry 'paper' on those long trips away from civilization.
Ex Boy Scout, be prepared.
Bill Baka
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 08 Jun 2007 09:57:53
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
"Callistus Valerius" <jazzyboss@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:gbbai.14688$296.14657@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> When a big wave crashes over you, and you go under
> > and
> > > then pop up, you scream, "bring it on, .....I'm still here." It's
very
> > > primal, it's you against mother nature and all that it can throw at
you.
> > > I've literally been shaking in fear, in some of the situations I've
> > gotten
> > > into, it can be plenty scary at times.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > No, it's stop... let me change my undies....
> >
> > Chas.
> -------------
> when I use to race, I could never pee while riding, I always had to
stop.
> Don't know why, I just couldn't do it. In kayaking it's not a problem,
the
> ocean just washes everything away anyway. Sitting normally, not perched
> like on a bike it's easy to pee. And besides, I drink beer while I
kayak,
> so peeing while paddling is a necessity, also the beer helps with the
> courage when it gets rough.
>
> If your talking about doing #2, just jump in the water, hold on to the
kayak
> with one hand, use the other to do the job, when finished, get back into
the
> boat. If anyone is in eyesight, they don't have a clue what you're
doing.
>
>
No, I meant #2 out of FEAR..... ;-)
I never tried #1 on the bike but I saw a number of other riders who were
good at it during races.
This brings up another topic. I see a lot of older steel bikes that are
rusted and corroded from the middle of the top tube forward. We drank ERG,
Gator-Aide, Coke, beer and other liquids but never saw that kind of
corrosion.
Is there something that riders drink today that makes their sweat more
corrosive?
We cleaned off our bikes after riding, maybe that's the difference.
Chas.
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 08 Jun 2007 20:21:49
From: Bill
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
* * Chas wrote:
> No, I meant #2 out of FEAR..... ;-)
>
> I never tried #1 on the bike but I saw a number of other riders who were
> good at it during races.
They must be really well hydrated. When I go on a long hot ride it's
like all the fluid comes out as sweat, and I don't have to pee for an
hour or so after I get home. I thought the kidneys took a back seat to
the exercise???
>
> This brings up another topic. I see a lot of older steel bikes that are
> rusted and corroded from the middle of the top tube forward. We drank ERG,
> Gator-Aide, Coke, beer and other liquids but never saw that kind of
> corrosion.
>
> Is there something that riders drink today that makes their sweat more
> corrosive?
I think sweat is naturally corrosive due to the salt. Salvage divers
have found wrecks in fresh water that look almost 'fresh' (sorry) where
the salt water wrecks are corroded beyond belief.
Bill Baka
>
> We cleaned off our bikes after riding, maybe that's the difference.
>
> Chas.
>
>
>
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 08 Jun 2007 18:36:46
From: Crescentius Vespasianus
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
> No, I meant #2 out of FEAR..... ;-)
>
> I never tried #1 on the bike but I saw a number of other riders who were
> good at it during races.
>
> This brings up another topic. I see a lot of older steel bikes that are
> rusted and corroded from the middle of the top tube forward. We drank ERG,
> Gator-Aide, Coke, beer and other liquids but never saw that kind of
> corrosion.
>
> Is there something that riders drink today that makes their sweat more
> corrosive?
>
> We cleaned off our bikes after riding, maybe that's the difference.
>
> Chas.
---------------
I know what you ment, but I have never pooped my pants in fear, just from
too many margaritas and mexican food the night before.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 08 Jun 2007 09:15:30
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
In article <gbbai.14688$296.14657@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net >,
"Callistus Valerius" <jazzyboss@hotmail.com > wrote:
> When a big wave crashes over you, and you go under
> > and
> > > then pop up, you scream, "bring it on, .....I'm still here."
> > > It's very primal, it's you against mother nature and all that it
> > > can throw at you. I've literally been shaking in fear, in some of
> > > the situations I've gotten into, it can be plenty scary at times.
> >
> > No, it's stop... let me change my undies....
> >
> > Chas.
> ------------- when I use to race, I could never pee while riding, I
> always had to stop. Don't know why, I just couldn't do it. In
> kayaking it's not a problem, the ocean just washes everything away
> anyway. Sitting normally, not perched like on a bike it's easy to
> pee. And besides, I drink beer while I kayak, so peeing while
> paddling is a necessity, also the beer helps with the courage when it
> gets rough.
>
> If your talking about doing #2, just jump in the water, hold on to
> the kayak with one hand, use the other to do the job, when finished,
> get back into the boat. If anyone is in eyesight, they don't have a
> clue what you're doing.
OK, we've passed over into the stupid (drinking while boating) and the
disgusting...
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 14:31:58
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
> > Speaking of the devil, I just bought a carbon fiber paddle
yesterday,
> > and YES the PRICE was outrageous. Paddle weights range from 25 oz to 40
oz.
> > I saw some statistic that even a 2 oz difference in paddles adds up to
huge
> > amount of weight difference that you had to lift paddleing in one day.
>
> Couldn't you do the same kind of math and conclude that two ounces of
> difference between cycling shoes has a huge cumulative impact because of
> the number of times you have to move your feet in a circle? Yet I've never
> really noticed that magnitude of difference between one shoe and another
> having an impact on my endurance. Pushing my weight around at a fast clip
> or up hills seems a far more important factor. I would think the same
> would be true of paddling -- doesn't the effort of pushing the paddle
> through the water so outweigh the effort of lifting the paddle through air
> that the later becomes insignificant?
-----------
I think you're smarter than me, because I had to read your reply several
times. For one thing, especially in my case, arms are considerably weaker
than legs. Try holding anything chest high and see how fatiguing it
becomes, even holding nothing your arms eventually weaken. But I'm sure you
are correct, it's just the magnitude, with arms 2 oz is huge, with legs
hardly noticeable. I don't know if you're a paddler, but putting the paddle
blade in the water is less stress than holding it up, because when it's in
the water it's down. In a paddle stroke, you actually put the blade down up
front, and push the boat to the blade with your legs, and twist your torso.
Once the boat has moved to the blade, then you have to LIFT it out the
water, so that you can put the other blade to the front. That is where the
energy is consumed, by lifting it out the water each time. And this isn't
gondolering, you have to have a quick cadence.
The biggest factor, is wind. The wind catching the blades, either gives you
a push (tailwind), or it's like a brake (into the wind). Wind is huge in
kayaking, and drafting doesn't work, I've tried it.
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 07:01:43
From: andresmuro@aol.com
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Jun 7, 5:30 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of $2100.
> It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9 lists for
> $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect it will
> break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike will be $8000
> better than my Trek 5200? Harley-Davidson has demographic studies, and they
> know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to have to
> put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or face
> plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future too, or
> will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess if my 5200 frame
> ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
Yeah! Bikes in the thousands of dollars are very common today. That is
because, with the growth in popularity, upper income people started
getting involved. I've been riding for the past 20 years and until
around 1998, the cyclists in El Paso were pretty much the same group
with a few youngsters every so often and a cyclist moving in from out
of town. Local bike shops were hardly making it. Since 2001, cycling
became a very popular sport and also became sort of the new golf for
the upper classes. So, our rides started to add groups of people with
lots of disposable income with more and more expensive bikes.
I think that that has been great. It used to be that the 7:00 am
meeting place had approx 10 to 20 cyclists at the most, on weekends.
Now, there are hundreds of people leaving at different times and of
all levels from the meeting spot. Rides with 20 plus people leaving on
a weekend are easy to find all over town with groups of all levels.
Also, this has been good for local bike shops and the local economy.
there was a time that the local bike shop was on its way out. Cyclists
like me used to buy one pair of shorts a year, ten tubes and do all
our repairs. Now, people are buying these insanely expensive bikes and
have the bike shop do all the repairs and maintenance.
At the same time, cheap bikes are not uncommon. You can easily buy a
frame and fork online for about $200. They are light and well built.
Also, you can buy a complete bike with tiagra or 105 frame and carbon
fork for less than $1,000 locally and a lot less than that online.
These bikes are just as good as the more expensive bikes, ride nice
and can be used for racing, training, etc.
So, I think that it has been great for cycling to have more people
getting involved. Cops are nicer to cyclists. A lot of law enforcement
are cyclist themselves and they work on their bikes. Communities are
putting more bike lanes and traffic is respecting cyclists more.
When a bike shop carries several $5000+ bikes, there must be people
buying them. Those people have more pull at city council meetings and
other community events. Developers are starting to take into account
cycling in communities, etc.
So, overall, we went from being a sport of hippies, gypsies, Martians
and college students to a well established sport. I think that is a
good thing.
Andres
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 12:33:39
From: Colin Campbell
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
andresmuro@aol.com wrote:
> On Jun 7, 5:30 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of $2100.
>> It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9 lists for
>> $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect it will
>> break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike will be $8000
>> better than my Trek 5200? Harley-Davidson has demographic studies, and they
>> know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to have to
>> put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or face
>> plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future too, or
>> will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess if my 5200 frame
>> ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
>
> Yeah! Bikes in the thousands of dollars are very common today. That is
> because, with the growth in popularity, upper income people started
> getting involved. I've been riding for the past 20 years and until
> around 1998, the cyclists in El Paso were pretty much the same group
> with a few youngsters every so often and a cyclist moving in from out
> of town. Local bike shops were hardly making it. Since 2001, cycling
> became a very popular sport and also became sort of the new golf for
> the upper classes. So, our rides started to add groups of people with
> lots of disposable income with more and more expensive bikes.
>
> I think that that has been great. It used to be that the 7:00 am
> meeting place had approx 10 to 20 cyclists at the most, on weekends.
> Now, there are hundreds of people leaving at different times and of
> all levels from the meeting spot. Rides with 20 plus people leaving on
> a weekend are easy to find all over town with groups of all levels.
>
> Also, this has been good for local bike shops and the local economy.
> there was a time that the local bike shop was on its way out. Cyclists
> like me used to buy one pair of shorts a year, ten tubes and do all
> our repairs. Now, people are buying these insanely expensive bikes and
> have the bike shop do all the repairs and maintenance.
>
> At the same time, cheap bikes are not uncommon. You can easily buy a
> frame and fork online for about $200. They are light and well built.
> Also, you can buy a complete bike with tiagra or 105 frame and carbon
> fork for less than $1,000 locally and a lot less than that online.
> These bikes are just as good as the more expensive bikes, ride nice
> and can be used for racing, training, etc.
>
> So, I think that it has been great for cycling to have more people
> getting involved. Cops are nicer to cyclists. A lot of law enforcement
> are cyclist themselves and they work on their bikes. Communities are
> putting more bike lanes and traffic is respecting cyclists more.
>
> When a bike shop carries several $5000+ bikes, there must be people
> buying them. Those people have more pull at city council meetings and
> other community events. Developers are starting to take into account
> cycling in communities, etc.
>
> So, overall, we went from being a sport of hippies, gypsies, Martians
> and college students to a well established sport. I think that is a
> good thing.
>
> Andres
>
Ok, Andres,
How do I find out about the weekend (or for that matter, weekday) rides
in El Paso?
I pass through on trips to Dallas. I've only ridden there once, Easter
Sunday, 1990. I had a nice ride while the girls were at Sunrise Mass,
but I had no idea where to go. (Of course, I could have ridden on I-10
at that time, on that day. When we headed east after the Mass ended, I
think I probably drove 50 miles before I saw another car.
Colin
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 11:26:20
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
<andresmuro@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1181224903.855385.148980@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 7, 5:30 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of
$2100.
> > It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9
lists for
> > $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect it
will
> > break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike will be
$8000
> > better than my Trek 5200? Harley-Davidson has demographic studies,
and they
> > know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to
have to
> > put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or
face
> > plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future
too, or
> > will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess if my 5200
frame
> > ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
>
> Yeah! Bikes in the thousands of dollars are very common today. That is
> because, with the growth in popularity, upper income people started
> getting involved. I've been riding for the past 20 years and until
> around 1998, the cyclists in El Paso were pretty much the same group
> with a few youngsters every so often and a cyclist moving in from out
> of town. Local bike shops were hardly making it. Since 2001, cycling
> became a very popular sport and also became sort of the new golf for
> the upper classes. So, our rides started to add groups of people with
> lots of disposable income with more and more expensive bikes.
>
> I think that that has been great. It used to be that the 7:00 am
> meeting place had approx 10 to 20 cyclists at the most, on weekends.
> Now, there are hundreds of people leaving at different times and of
> all levels from the meeting spot. Rides with 20 plus people leaving on
> a weekend are easy to find all over town with groups of all levels.
>
> Also, this has been good for local bike shops and the local economy.
> there was a time that the local bike shop was on its way out. Cyclists
> like me used to buy one pair of shorts a year, ten tubes and do all
> our repairs. Now, people are buying these insanely expensive bikes and
> have the bike shop do all the repairs and maintenance.
>
> At the same time, cheap bikes are not uncommon. You can easily buy a
> frame and fork online for about $200. They are light and well built.
> Also, you can buy a complete bike with tiagra or 105 frame and carbon
> fork for less than $1,000 locally and a lot less than that online.
> These bikes are just as good as the more expensive bikes, ride nice
> and can be used for racing, training, etc.
>
> So, I think that it has been great for cycling to have more people
> getting involved. Cops are nicer to cyclists. A lot of law enforcement
> are cyclist themselves and they work on their bikes. Communities are
> putting more bike lanes and traffic is respecting cyclists more.
>
> When a bike shop carries several $5000+ bikes, there must be people
> buying them. Those people have more pull at city council meetings and
> other community events. Developers are starting to take into account
> cycling in communities, etc.
>
> So, overall, we went from being a sport of hippies, gypsies, Martians
> and college students to a well established sport. I think that is a
> good thing.
>
> Andres
>
We used to drive down to EP several times a year for the criterium races
in Tijuana. We were riding state of the art 1970s bikes. Most of the
Mexican riders were on old beat up bikes but they were hard to keep up
with.
The Colombians played dirty tricks, sticking their pumps in your wheels
and then after the races they wanted to buy all of your stuff.
We'd walk back across the border carrying bags full of mangos and Kalua.
Chas.
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 18:36:16
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Thu, 7 Jun 2007 11:26:20 -0700, "* * Chas"
<verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com > wrote:
>The Colombians played dirty tricks, sticking their pumps in your wheels
>and then after the races they wanted to buy all of your stuff.
You're telling me you in races where some riders routinely did stuff
that will blatantly make another rider crash, or trash their wheels?
I find this hard to believe. Were there fights after the races? I
dont' see how there could not be either suspensions or fights or both.
Or cops called.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 20:12:08
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote in message
news:t02h63lrj6uh325g6m8c37qeqfpfe8anbv@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 7 Jun 2007 11:26:20 -0700, "* * Chas"
> <verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
> >The Colombians played dirty tricks, sticking their pumps in your wheels
> >and then after the races they wanted to buy all of your stuff.
>
> You're telling me you in races where some riders routinely did stuff
> that will blatantly make another rider crash, or trash their wheels?
> I find this hard to believe. Were there fights after the races? I
> dont' see how there could not be either suspensions or fights or both.
> Or cops called.
>
> --
> JT
Yes, in Juarez, Mexico. The Colombians were dirty players. I've heard tell
years ago the pros used to do the same thing.
You don't want to get into a fight or cause any kind of disturbance in
Mexico or a lot of other countries for that matter if you want to leave
town on your own schedule.
Chas.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 11 Jun 2007 13:28:55
From: G.T.
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
"* * Chas" <verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com > wrote in message
news:K9adnQr_ReQJVfXbnZ2dnUVZ_silnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote in message
> news:t02h63lrj6uh325g6m8c37qeqfpfe8anbv@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 7 Jun 2007 11:26:20 -0700, "* * Chas"
>> <verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>>
>> >The Colombians played dirty tricks, sticking their pumps in your wheels
>> >and then after the races they wanted to buy all of your stuff.
>>
>> You're telling me you in races where some riders routinely did stuff
>> that will blatantly make another rider crash, or trash their wheels?
>> I find this hard to believe. Were there fights after the races? I
>> dont' see how there could not be either suspensions or fights or both.
>> Or cops called.
>>
>> --
>> JT
>
> Yes, in Juarez, Mexico. The Colombians were dirty players. I've heard tell
> years ago the pros used to do the same thing.
>
Sure dude. I think you've been watching too many cycling movies.
Greg
--
Ticketbastard tax tracker:
http://ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html
Dethink to survive - Mclusky
|
| | | | | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 23:20:11
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Thu, 7 Jun 2007 20:12:08 -0700, "* * Chas"
<verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com > wrote:
>
>"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote in message
>news:t02h63lrj6uh325g6m8c37qeqfpfe8anbv@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 7 Jun 2007 11:26:20 -0700, "* * Chas"
>> <verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>>
>> >The Colombians played dirty tricks, sticking their pumps in your wheels
>> >and then after the races they wanted to buy all of your stuff.
>>
>> You're telling me you in races where some riders routinely did stuff
>> that will blatantly make another rider crash, or trash their wheels?
>> I find this hard to believe. Were there fights after the races? I
>> dont' see how there could not be either suspensions or fights or both.
>> Or cops called.
>
>Yes, in Juarez, Mexico. The Colombians were dirty players. I've heard tell
>years ago the pros used to do the same thing.
>
>You don't want to get into a fight or cause any kind of disturbance in
>Mexico or a lot of other countries for that matter if you want to leave
>town on your own schedule.
Let me get this straight -- the pumps were stuck in your wheels more
than once but you guys went back?
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 21:21:20
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
In article
<6_qdnZ55FKTE0PXbnZ2dnUVZ_uOmnZ2d@comcast.com >,
"* * Chas" <verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com > wrote:
> <andresmuro@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1181224903.855385.148980@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jun 7, 5:30 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of
> $2100.
> > > It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9
> lists for
> > > $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect it
> will
> > > break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike will be
> $8000
> > > better than my Trek 5200? Harley-Davidson has demographic studies,
> and they
> > > know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to
> have to
> > > put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or
> face
> > > plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future
> too, or
> > > will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess if my 5200
> frame
> > > ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
> >
> > Yeah! Bikes in the thousands of dollars are very common today. That is
> > because, with the growth in popularity, upper income people started
> > getting involved. I've been riding for the past 20 years and until
> > around 1998, the cyclists in El Paso were pretty much the same group
> > with a few youngsters every so often and a cyclist moving in from out
> > of town. Local bike shops were hardly making it. Since 2001, cycling
> > became a very popular sport and also became sort of the new golf for
> > the upper classes. So, our rides started to add groups of people with
> > lots of disposable income with more and more expensive bikes.
> >
> > I think that that has been great. It used to be that the 7:00 am
> > meeting place had approx 10 to 20 cyclists at the most, on weekends.
> > Now, there are hundreds of people leaving at different times and of
> > all levels from the meeting spot. Rides with 20 plus people leaving on
> > a weekend are easy to find all over town with groups of all levels.
> >
> > Also, this has been good for local bike shops and the local economy.
> > there was a time that the local bike shop was on its way out. Cyclists
> > like me used to buy one pair of shorts a year, ten tubes and do all
> > our repairs. Now, people are buying these insanely expensive bikes and
> > have the bike shop do all the repairs and maintenance.
> >
> > At the same time, cheap bikes are not uncommon. You can easily buy a
> > frame and fork online for about $200. They are light and well built.
> > Also, you can buy a complete bike with tiagra or 105 frame and carbon
> > fork for less than $1,000 locally and a lot less than that online.
> > These bikes are just as good as the more expensive bikes, ride nice
> > and can be used for racing, training, etc.
> >
> > So, I think that it has been great for cycling to have more people
> > getting involved. Cops are nicer to cyclists. A lot of law enforcement
> > are cyclist themselves and they work on their bikes. Communities are
> > putting more bike lanes and traffic is respecting cyclists more.
> >
> > When a bike shop carries several $5000+ bikes, there must be people
> > buying them. Those people have more pull at city council meetings and
> > other community events. Developers are starting to take into account
> > cycling in communities, etc.
> >
> > So, overall, we went from being a sport of hippies, gypsies, Martians
> > and college students to a well established sport. I think that is a
> > good thing.
> >
> > Andres
> >
>
> We used to drive down to EP several times a year for the criterium races
> in Tijuana.
Juarez.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 14:31:37
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
"Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote in message
news:rubrum-EF9501.14212007062007@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com...
> In article
> <6_qdnZ55FKTE0PXbnZ2dnUVZ_uOmnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> "* * Chas" <verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
> > <andresmuro@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:1181224903.855385.148980@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Jun 7, 5:30 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> > > > When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price
of
> > $2100.
> > > > It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9
> > lists for
> > > > $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect
it
> > will
> > > > break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike
will be
> > $8000
> > > > better than my Trek 5200? Harley-Davidson has demographic
studies,
> > and they
> > > > know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going
to
> > have to
> > > > put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes,
or
> > face
> > > > plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future
> > too, or
> > > > will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess if my
5200
> > frame
> > > > ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
> > >
> > > Yeah! Bikes in the thousands of dollars are very common today. That
is
> > > because, with the growth in popularity, upper income people started
> > > getting involved. I've been riding for the past 20 years and until
> > > around 1998, the cyclists in El Paso were pretty much the same group
> > > with a few youngsters every so often and a cyclist moving in from
out
> > > of town. Local bike shops were hardly making it. Since 2001,
cycling
> > > became a very popular sport and also became sort of the new golf for
> > > the upper classes. So, our rides started to add groups of people
with
> > > lots of disposable income with more and more expensive bikes.
> > >
> > > I think that that has been great. It used to be that the 7:00 am
> > > meeting place had approx 10 to 20 cyclists at the most, on weekends.
> > > Now, there are hundreds of people leaving at different times and of
> > > all levels from the meeting spot. Rides with 20 plus people leaving
on
> > > a weekend are easy to find all over town with groups of all levels.
> > >
> > > Also, this has been good for local bike shops and the local economy.
> > > there was a time that the local bike shop was on its way out.
Cyclists
> > > like me used to buy one pair of shorts a year, ten tubes and do all
> > > our repairs. Now, people are buying these insanely expensive bikes
and
> > > have the bike shop do all the repairs and maintenance.
> > >
> > > At the same time, cheap bikes are not uncommon. You can easily buy a
> > > frame and fork online for about $200. They are light and well built.
> > > Also, you can buy a complete bike with tiagra or 105 frame and
carbon
> > > fork for less than $1,000 locally and a lot less than that online.
> > > These bikes are just as good as the more expensive bikes, ride nice
> > > and can be used for racing, training, etc.
> > >
> > > So, I think that it has been great for cycling to have more people
> > > getting involved. Cops are nicer to cyclists. A lot of law
enforcement
> > > are cyclist themselves and they work on their bikes. Communities are
> > > putting more bike lanes and traffic is respecting cyclists more.
> > >
> > > When a bike shop carries several $5000+ bikes, there must be people
> > > buying them. Those people have more pull at city council meetings
and
> > > other community events. Developers are starting to take into account
> > > cycling in communities, etc.
> > >
> > > So, overall, we went from being a sport of hippies, gypsies,
Martians
> > > and college students to a well established sport. I think that is a
> > > good thing.
> > >
> > > Andres
> > >
> >
> > We used to drive down to EP several times a year for the criterium
races
> > in Tijuana.
>
> Juarez.
>
> --
> Michael Press
DOH! Too much Kalua.... ;-)
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 20:04:09
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
Dans le message de
news:1181224903.855385.148980@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com,
andresmuro@aol.com <andresmuro@aol.com > a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> On Jun 7, 5:30 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price
>> of $2100. It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007
>> Madone 6.9 lists for $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008
>> price, but I expect it will break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone
>> convince me that this bike will be $8000 better than my Trek 5200?
>> Harley-Davidson has demographic studies, and they know when the
>> baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to have to put
>> together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or
>> face plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the
>> future too, or will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I
>> guess if my 5200 frame ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
>
> Yeah! Bikes in the thousands of dollars are very common today. That is
> because, with the growth in popularity, upper income people started
> getting involved. I've been riding for the past 20 years and until
> around 1998, the cyclists in El Paso were pretty much the same group
> with a few youngsters every so often and a cyclist moving in from out
> of town. Local bike shops were hardly making it. Since 2001, cycling
> became a very popular sport and also became sort of the new golf for
> the upper classes. So, our rides started to add groups of people with
> lots of disposable income with more and more expensive bikes.
>
> I think that that has been great. It used to be that the 7:00 am
> meeting place had approx 10 to 20 cyclists at the most, on weekends.
> Now, there are hundreds of people leaving at different times and of
> all levels from the meeting spot. Rides with 20 plus people leaving on
> a weekend are easy to find all over town with groups of all levels.
>
> Also, this has been good for local bike shops and the local economy.
> there was a time that the local bike shop was on its way out. Cyclists
> like me used to buy one pair of shorts a year, ten tubes and do all
> our repairs. Now, people are buying these insanely expensive bikes and
> have the bike shop do all the repairs and maintenance.
>
> At the same time, cheap bikes are not uncommon. You can easily buy a
> frame and fork online for about $200. They are light and well built.
> Also, you can buy a complete bike with tiagra or 105 frame and carbon
> fork for less than $1,000 locally and a lot less than that online.
> These bikes are just as good as the more expensive bikes, ride nice
> and can be used for racing, training, etc.
>
> So, I think that it has been great for cycling to have more people
> getting involved. Cops are nicer to cyclists. A lot of law enforcement
> are cyclist themselves and they work on their bikes. Communities are
> putting more bike lanes and traffic is respecting cyclists more.
>
> When a bike shop carries several $5000+ bikes, there must be people
> buying them. Those people have more pull at city council meetings and
> other community events. Developers are starting to take into account
> cycling in communities, etc.
>
> So, overall, we went from being a sport of hippies, gypsies, Martians
> and college students to a well established sport. I think that is a
> good thing.
>
> Andres
Patience is a virtue in chopping these prices down. If you don't need the
latest, greatest in the month it is introduced, you can save big. My Merckx
frame was listed at 1650 euros at introduction, and seven months later, I
bought one from a willing seller for 325 euros. Same thing with
components - if you can wait, you'll save tons. In toto, my bike cost me
around 1250 euros with some parts a notch above, where the retail price was
3850 euros.
Not going to apologize to LBS's. They make their money from those who don't
like to take part in the creation. I get a kick out of the assembly. On
the other hand, I could bake my own bread, but I live in France, and that
would be stupid and uneconomical and not as fine tasting. Retail is there
for most, and really good retailers deserve what prices they ask.
--
Bonne route !
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 13:02:38
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
<old fart warning >
Back when I used to race I would often go on the Gopher Wheelmen hammer
fest. Often there was a guy who would turn up on this old piece of crap
(turned out to be an old lugged Colnago once I looked closely, which
appeared to have been repainted with black Rustoleum and a toilet
brush), with a bunch of mismatched parts. Looked like he assembled the
bike by raiding dumpsters. He often rode in a T-shirt and old faded
shorts; if it was cool out he had some homemade wind tights. Every ride
he'd be hammering away at the front with the Cat 1s and 2s groveling to
stay on his wheel and me groveling to stay on their wheels with some Cat
3s in between as a buffer. If the pace dropped he'd just go back to the
front and pull. I never saw him at a race.
Another local guy, Bob "Diesel" Schwartz, used to take perverse pleasure
in winning races on a Giant CF frame that he really did pull out of a
dumpster. The whole bike cost him less than the wheels of the guys he'd
beat.
As the saying goes, it ain't the bike it's the motor. Must be why I
never won races.
</old fart warning >
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 12:53:18
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
From today's RBR newsletter:
"To commemorate the Giro victory, Team Liquigas bike sponsor Cannondale
is building 21 Danilo "The Killer" Di Luca System Six replica bikes, one
honoring each stage and numbered from 1 to 21. Equipment includes
Campagnolo components, Fulcrum wheels, a Fizik Arione saddle, and an FSA
bar and stem. The rear triangle will be painted white "as requested by
the Killer himself and used in his Giro victory," said Cannondale. The
bikes will be available through 'Dale dealers in Europe and the U.S.
First come, first served for about $14,000, according to bikebiz.com.
Pretty steep, but you also get a signed maglia rosa jersey and
commemorative "Killer Wanted" poster.
Screw the Madone. If you wanna be the cool kid, pony up 14 large for
the Di Luca replica. I wonder if that jersey comes in XXXL?
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 21:17:49
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
In article
<timmcn-8EC074.12531807062007@news.iphouse.com >,
Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote:
> From today's RBR newsletter:
>
> "To commemorate the Giro victory, Team Liquigas bike sponsor Cannondale
> is building 21 Danilo "The Killer" Di Luca System Six replica bikes, one
> honoring each stage and numbered from 1 to 21. Equipment includes
> Campagnolo components, Fulcrum wheels, a Fizik Arione saddle, and an FSA
> bar and stem. The rear triangle will be painted white "as requested by
> the Killer himself and used in his Giro victory," said Cannondale. The
> bikes will be available through 'Dale dealers in Europe and the U.S.
> First come, first served for about $14,000, according to bikebiz.com.
> Pretty steep, but you also get a signed maglia rosa jersey and
> commemorative "Killer Wanted" poster.
>
> Screw the Madone. If you wanna be the cool kid, pony up 14 large for
> the Di Luca replica. I wonder if that jersey comes in XXXL?
I'll take two.
--
Michael Press
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 08:41:30
From: Gary Young
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 08:28:50 -0500, Gary Young wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 13:20:37 +0000, R Brickston wrote:
>
>> On Jun 7, 5:30 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of $2100.
>>> It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9 lists for
>>> $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect it will
>>> break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike will be $8000
>>> better than my Trek 5200? Harley-Davidson has demographic studies, and they
>>> know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to have to
>>> put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or face
>>> plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future too, or
>>> will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess if my 5200 frame
>>> ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
>>
>> No comparison to the bike you bought. It's a full pound lighter than
>> last years. Also of interest:
>>
>> ...the carbon fiber on both the frame and fork is precisely "net
>> molded" to accept headset and bottom bracket bearings with not only no
>> cups required, but also no machining required. With your hands, you
>> simply pop in the bearings into the ends of the head tube and the
>> bottom bracket shell. The only tool required is a hex key to tighten
>> the headset top cap and to attach the left crankarm on (it takes
>> integrated-spindle cranks from all major manufacturers).
>>
>>
>> http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/12366.0.html
>
> This raises a question for me. If simply popping a bearing in by hand is
> OK, why do we go to the bother of pressing bearing cups into headsets and
> really tightening down on bottom-bracket fixed cups when it comes to steel
> and aluminum frames? We do so even if the headtube and bottom bracket have
> been properly faced, reamed and threaded, so it seems doubtful that the
> tolerances of the appropriate receptacle is the issue.
Maybe I can answer my own question -- Trek doesn't need to press in cups
because the cups are incorporated into the frame itself. Still, that
raises another question -- is this a short-sighted solution? Won't there
be some wear of the frame if cartridge bearings are not pressed in?
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 14:56:52
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
> >> ...the carbon fiber on both the frame and fork is precisely "net
> >> molded" to accept headset and bottom bracket bearings with not only no
> >> cups required, but also no machining required. With your hands, you
> >> simply pop in the bearings into the ends of the head tube and the
> >> bottom bracket shell. The only tool required is a hex key to tighten
> >> the headset top cap and to attach the left crankarm on (it takes
> >> integrated-spindle cranks from all major manufacturers).
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/12366.0.html
> >
> > This raises a question for me. If simply popping a bearing in by hand is
> > OK, why do we go to the bother of pressing bearing cups into headsets
and
> > really tightening down on bottom-bracket fixed cups when it comes to
steel
> > and aluminum frames? We do so even if the headtube and bottom bracket
have
> > been properly faced, reamed and threaded, so it seems doubtful that the
> > tolerances of the appropriate receptacle is the issue.
>
> Maybe I can answer my own question -- Trek doesn't need to press in cups
> because the cups are incorporated into the frame itself. Still, that
> raises another question -- is this a short-sighted solution? Won't there
> be some wear of the frame if cartridge bearings are not pressed in?
----------
We won't know till around 2011, and then we'll have our answer.
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 08:28:50
From: Gary Young
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 13:20:37 +0000, R Brickston wrote:
> On Jun 7, 5:30 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of $2100.
>> It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9 lists for
>> $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect it will
>> break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike will be $8000
>> better than my Trek 5200? Harley-Davidson has demographic studies, and they
>> know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to have to
>> put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or face
>> plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future too, or
>> will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess if my 5200 frame
>> ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
>
> No comparison to the bike you bought. It's a full pound lighter than
> last years. Also of interest:
>
> ...the carbon fiber on both the frame and fork is precisely "net
> molded" to accept headset and bottom bracket bearings with not only no
> cups required, but also no machining required. With your hands, you
> simply pop in the bearings into the ends of the head tube and the
> bottom bracket shell. The only tool required is a hex key to tighten
> the headset top cap and to attach the left crankarm on (it takes
> integrated-spindle cranks from all major manufacturers).
>
>
> http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/12366.0.html
This raises a question for me. If simply popping a bearing in by hand is
OK, why do we go to the bother of pressing bearing cups into headsets and
really tightening down on bottom-bracket fixed cups when it comes to steel
and aluminum frames? We do so even if the headtube and bottom bracket have
been properly faced, reamed and threaded, so it seems doubtful that the
tolerances of the appropriate receptacle is the issue.
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 13:03:35
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
The following was a $$$urprise! BUT Consdier cycle tire labor costs/
materials, cost of carbon frames: bolt together v laid up together.
There's always the question now: is this a Chinese paddle with USA/
Euro pricing? And profit, without market effects like Surly?
http://www.epickayaks.com/products/?nid=664
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 13:46:15
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
> The following was a $$$urprise! BUT Consdier cycle tire labor costs/
> materials, cost of carbon frames: bolt together v laid up together.
> There's always the question now: is this a Chinese paddle with USA/
> Euro pricing? And profit, without market effects like Surly?
> http://www.epickayaks.com/products/?nid=664
----------
Speaking of the devil, I just bought a carbon fiber paddle yesterday,
and YES the PRICE was outrageous. Paddle weights range from 25 oz to 40 oz.
I saw some statistic that even a 2 oz difference in paddles adds up to huge
amount of weight difference that you had to lift paddleing in one day. To
compare it to bikes, the difference in paddle weights and materials are very
apparent, and sometimes are the difference in even being able to paddle 6
hours or not. With bikes, to be truthfull, I really don't feel a difference
between a 22 lb bike and a 20 lb bike, geometry and fit is what I really
feel.
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 08:56:20
From: Marcus Coles
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
Callistus Valerius wrote:
> When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of $2100.
> It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9 lists for
> $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect it will
> break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike will be $8000
> better than my Trek 5200? Harley-Davidson has demographic studies, and they
> know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to have to
> put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or face
> plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future too, or
> will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess if my 5200 frame
> ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
>
>
Price is a factor, but not like you think.
Often at the high end people buy based on price/status/recognition.
Trek has to remain competitive in price with other high end bikes.
If they sold it for $4,000 it would fall below the radar of the target
market.
Marcus
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 09:29:24
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
"Marcus Coles" <marcoles@ody.ca > wrote in message
news:46680024$0$7166$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> Callistus Valerius wrote:
> > When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of
$2100.
> > It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9
lists for
> > $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect it
will
> > break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike will be
$8000
> > better than my Trek 5200? Harley-Davidson has demographic studies,
and they
> > know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to
have to
> > put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or
face
> > plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future
too, or
> > will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess if my 5200
frame
> > ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
> >
> >
> Price is a factor, but not like you think.
> Often at the high end people buy based on price/status/recognition.
> Trek has to remain competitive in price with other high end bikes.
>
> If they sold it for $4,000 it would fall below the radar of the target
> market.
>
>
> Marcus
>
$8250.00 buys you a brand new dick stretcher....
Goes along with the old "mine is bigger" syndrome.
Chas.
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 05:48:44
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Jun 7, 5:30 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of $2100.
> It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9 lists for
> $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect it will
> break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike will be $8000
> better than my Trek 5200? Harley-Davidson has demographic studies, and they
> know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to have to
> put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or face
> plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future too, or
> will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess if my 5200 frame
> ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
Trek is the Toyota of bicycles...Ya look at the MadOne...but buy a
lesser priced one cuz it's 'just as good'...like buying a Camry
instead of a Lexus, cuz it's 'just as good'...BUT unlike cars, ya
gotta peddle the thing. I'll bet there are a lot of MadOnes and Scotts
and BMCs that see the light of day only once a week, on Sunday, for
the 'look at my new tits' for the girls at the coffee shop before the
15 mile ride.
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 13:20:37
From: R Brickston
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Jun 7, 5:30 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of $2100.
> It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9 lists for
> $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect it will
> break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike will be $8000
> better than my Trek 5200? Harley-Davidson has demographic studies, and they
> know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to have to
> put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or face
> plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future too, or
> will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess if my 5200 frame
> ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
No comparison to the bike you bought. It's a full pound lighter than
last years. Also of interest:
...the carbon fiber on both the frame and fork is precisely "net
molded" to accept headset and bottom bracket bearings with not only no
cups required, but also no machining required. With your hands, you
simply pop in the bearings into the ends of the head tube and the
bottom bracket shell. The only tool required is a hex key to tighten
the headset top cap and to attach the left crankarm on (it takes
integrated-spindle cranks from all major manufacturers).
http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/12366.0.html
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 08:24:40
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 11:30:58 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
<jazzyboss@hotmail.com > wrote:
>Harley-Davidson has demographic studies, and they
>know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to have to
>put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or face
>plummeting sales.
Not sure you are aware of this, but Trek sells bikes at a wide range
of prices -- they already sell bikes at half the price of the ones you
are talking about.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 06:57:15
From: Gary Young
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 11:30:58 +0000, Callistus Valerius wrote:
> When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of $2100.
> It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone 6.9 lists for
> $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price, but I expect it will
> break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me that this bike will be $8000
> better than my Trek 5200? Harley-Davidson has demographic studies, and they
> know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to have to
> put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or face
> plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future too, or
> will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess if my 5200 frame
> ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
I don't see how you can fault Trek's business sense. They're cashing in on
Lance Armstrong's fame. If the bike's popularity declines, Trek can lower
the price substantially and still make a profit (judging from the price in
2000).
I've seen a few postings here on rbt saying that carbon fiber frames are
appearing at lower and lower price points. Why not buy a more reasonably
priced carbon bike when and if your 5200 wears out? If your response is
that you simply must have a 5200, then I suspect you too are a victim of
Lance hysteria.
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 04:50:22
From: Art Harris
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
"Callistus Valerius" wrote:
>
> Harley-Davidson has demographic studies, and they
> know when the baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to have to
> put together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or face
> plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future too, or
> will they blindly go where no man has gone before?
Well, if they're making more than twice the profit on each bike, they
can sell half as many and still be ahead of the game. And the amazing
thing is people keep buying new bikes every couple of years in search
of Nirvana.
Art Harris
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 09:11:06
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
In article <1181217022.700409.137250@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com >,
Art Harris <n2ah@hotmail.com > wrote:
> "Callistus Valerius" wrote:
> >
> > Harley-Davidson has demographic studies, and they know when the
> > baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to have to put
> > together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or
> > face plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the
> > future too, or will they blindly go where no man has gone before?
>
> Well, if they're making more than twice the profit on each bike, they
> can sell half as many and still be ahead of the game. And the amazing
> thing is people keep buying new bikes every couple of years in search
> of Nirvana.
Ah, that's been the truth of bicycling for 125 years. Marketing-induced
obsolescence is a major driver of continued sales amongst the high-end
(and high-profit) enthusiast market. Lots and lots of people have gotta
have the newerbetterfasterlighter unobtanium version because it's got to
be newerbetterfasterlighter.
Maybe I'm just a sentimental sap. I keep bikes for years and they
become old friends. When I hop on one it's imbued with the memories of
many rides with friends on nice days.
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 14:03:01
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
> Well, if they're making more than twice the profit on each bike, they
> can sell half as many and still be ahead of the game. And the amazing
> thing is people keep buying new bikes every couple of years in search
> of Nirvana.
>
> Art Harris
-----------
So it's goodbye to the days where a guy with an average salary, can save
enough to buy at the top of the line.
You should have seen me when I wrote that check for $2100 in 2000. My hand
was actually shaking. I already had a Trek 1000, took the 5200 home, rode
it on a loop that I ride frequently........and guess what no difference in
time. What a slap in the face that was. I learned to appreciate what
carbon fiber has to offer, but it took a while, it wasn't immediately
apparent. Today I still have both bikes, over 25,000 miles on both (wore
out all the components but the frames are the same, upgraded the 1000 to a
9sp), and still like both of them for different reasons.
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 18:06:16
From: Lou Holtman
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
Callistus Valerius wrote:
>> Well, if they're making more than twice the profit on each bike, they
>> can sell half as many and still be ahead of the game. And the amazing
>> thing is people keep buying new bikes every couple of years in search
>> of Nirvana.
>>
>> Art Harris
> -----------
> So it's goodbye to the days where a guy with an average salary, can save
> enough to buy at the top of the line.
>
> You should have seen me when I wrote that check for $2100 in 2000. My hand
> was actually shaking. I already had a Trek 1000, took the 5200 home, rode
> it on a loop that I ride frequently........and guess what no difference in
> time. What a slap in the face that was.
So you expected that the 5200 would be faster? That's dumb; not spending
2100 dollar on a bike.
Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)
|
| |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 13:40:34
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
Dans le message de
news:S%R9i.19159$j63.3043@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net,
Callistus Valerius <jazzyboss@hotmail.com > a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of
> $2100. It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone
> 6.9 lists for $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price,
> but I expect it will break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me
> that this bike will be $8000 better than my Trek 5200?
> Harley-Davidson has demographic studies, and they know when the
> baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to have to put
> together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or face
> plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future
> too, or will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess
> if my 5200 frame ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
You get older ; you go slower ; it must be the bike ; you buy a
not-very-thrifty box of ego-balm with all the newest goodies ; you're still
slow ; you're no longer young ; your hair thins ; your teeth need
reconstruction ; trifocals ; you buy a Powermeter and it lies, obviously ;
you're slower and slower ; time for more ego-balm, but it's twice the price
; you rent a wind tunnel for a day ; you buy a digital tire pressure gauge ;
teeth capped ; hair disguised ; slower again ; time for the Porsche.
--
Sandy
Ce n'est pas que j'ai peur de la mort.
Je veux seulement ne pas être là
quand elle arrivera.
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 09:18:57
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: bike prices out of wack.......
|
"Sandy" <leurre@frree.fr > wrote in message
news:4667eeb2$0$3273$426a34cc@news.free.fr...
> Dans le message de
> news:S%R9i.19159$j63.3043@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net,
> Callistus Valerius <jazzyboss@hotmail.com> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré
:
> > When I bought my Trek 5200 in 2000 it was the outrageous price of
> > $2100. It was state of the art. Now in 7 short years the 2007 Madone
> > 6.9 lists for $8250.00. They haven't listed the Madone 2008 price,
> > but I expect it will break the $10,000 mark. Can anyone convince me
> > that this bike will be $8000 better than my Trek 5200?
> > Harley-Davidson has demographic studies, and they know when the
> > baby-boom population starts fading, they are going to have to put
> > together their bikes at half the cost as their present bikes, or face
> > plummeting sales. Have companies like Trek looked into the future
> > too, or will they blindly go where no man has gone before? I guess
> > if my 5200 frame ever wears out, I could buy their Lime.
>
> You get older ; you go slower ; it must be the bike ; you buy a
> not-very-thrifty box of ego-balm with all the newest goodies ; you're
still
> slow ; you're no longer young ; your hair thins ; your teeth need
> reconstruction ; trifocals ; you buy a Powermeter and it lies, obviously
;
> you're slower and slower ; time for more ego-balm, but it's twice the
price
> ; you rent a wind tunnel for a day ; you buy a digital tire pressure
gauge ;
> teeth capped ; hair disguised ; slower again ; time for the Porsche.
> --
> Sandy
>
> Ce n'est pas que j'ai peur de la mort.
> Je veux seulement ne pas être là
> quand elle arrivera.
>
>
" time for the Porsche" - a red one! (viagara too)
Chas.
|
|
