broken spoke

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Date: 01 Jun 2007 16:54:27
From: A Muzi
Subject: broken spoke

I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in wheel) and the
occasional slapping sound reminds me of "tied/soldered spokes won't foul
on the fork when broken".

Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it will, I
wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes really are. I can't
recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a broken spoke. Anyone here
have experience with that?

(Yes, I'm going to put in a new spoke.)
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 03 Jun 2007 00:56:36
From: Avagadro IV
Subject: Re: broken spoke

The spoke snarled up something spectacular
> actually fouling the chain and cassette and it skidded to a stop. I was able to
> untangle and wrap the spoke around some good ones to hobble (wobble) home.

right! a spoke has a capacity to wind around the deray cage.
Incrudlous! jeeez now what?

Date: 04 Jun 2007 09:49:19
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: broken spoke

On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 00:56:36 -0000, Avagadro IV <datakoll@yahoo.com > wrote:

>The spoke snarled up something spectacular
>> actually fouling the chain and cassette and it skidded to a stop. I was able to
>> untangle and wrap the spoke around some good ones to hobble (wobble) home.
>
>right! a spoke has a capacity to wind around the deray cage.
>Incrudlous! jeeez now what?

Actually no, a spoke cannot wind around a derailleur cage, dumbass. But it can
sure get sucked into a bike's drivetrain and be chewed up and twisted around and
why the hell wouldn't it. The spoke snarled between the chain and cassette and
hub and chainstay.

Go look at a bike. Drop a spoke onto the lower length of chain and see where it
ends up.

Jeez indeed. Now even the class clown has pretenses of pedantry.

Ron

Date: 02 Jun 2007 16:21:10
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: broken spoke

Date: 02 Jun 2007 12:20:01
From: Patrick Lamb
Subject: Re: broken spoke

Date: 04 Jun 2007 17:27:47
From:
Subject: Re: broken spoke

Patrick Lamb writes:

>> I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in wheel)
>> and the occasional slapping sound reminds me of "tied/soldered
>> spokes won't foul on the fork when broken".

>> Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it will, I
>> wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes really are. I
>> can't recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a broken
>> spoke. Anyone here have experience with that?

> Of the half dozen to a dozen spokes that broke on my bike over the
> years, I only remember one that flapped loose. I don't remember the
> details, but I did have to stop and bend it around the remaining
> spokes to get home.

How long have you been riding a high wheeler with 3mm diameter black
radial spokes with threads at both ends? I assume you cite your
experience because it applies to such a bicycle.

Jobst Brandt

Date: 04 Jun 2007 12:05:07
From:
Subject: Re: broken spoke

On 04 Jun 2007 17:27:47 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

>Patrick Lamb writes:
>
>>> I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in wheel)
>>> and the occasional slapping sound reminds me of "tied/soldered
>>> spokes won't foul on the fork when broken".
>
>>> Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it will, I
>>> wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes really are. I
>>> can't recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a broken
>>> spoke. Anyone here have experience with that?
>
>> Of the half dozen to a dozen spokes that broke on my bike over the
>> years, I only remember one that flapped loose. I don't remember the
>> details, but I did have to stop and bend it around the remaining
>> spokes to get home.
>
>How long have you been riding a high wheeler with 3mm diameter black
>radial spokes with threads at both ends? I assume you cite your
>experience because it applies to such a bicycle.
>
>Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

Er, how long have _you_ been riding a high wheeler?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 04 Jun 2007 18:33:25
From:
Subject: Re: broken spoke

Carl Fogel writes:

>>>> I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in wheel)
>>>> and the occasional slapping sound reminds me of "tied/soldered
>>>> spokes won't foul on the fork when broken".

>>>> Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it will,
>>>> I wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes really
>>>> are. I can't recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a broken
>>>> spoke. Anyone here have experience with that?

>>> Of the half dozen to a dozen spokes that broke on my bike over the
>>> years, I only remember one that flapped loose. I don't remember
>>> the details, but I did have to stop and bend it around the
>>> remaining spokes to get home.

>> How long have you been riding a high wheeler with 3mm diameter
>> black radial spokes with threads at both ends? I assume you cite
>> your experience because it applies to such a bicycle.

> Er, how long have _you_ been riding a high wheeler?

Never, but I don't suggest that spokes of a high wheeler cannot toss
a rider off the bicycle when they break. In the years I have worked
with spokes I have seen spoke break at the hub and the treads and I
have seen spokes get into the gear cluster after breaking.

I think you should re-read the above and see that there is no value to
someone saying they never broke a spoke that could tangle the wheel
and therefore, tying spokes had no connection with that.

Jobst Brandt

Date: 04 Jun 2007 22:33:11
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: broken spoke

am@yellowjersey.org mused:
>>>>> I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in wheel)
>>>>> and the occasional slapping sound reminds me of "tied/soldered
>>>>> spokes won't foul on the fork when broken".

>>>>> Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it will,
>>>>> I wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes really
>>>>> are. I can't recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a broken
>>>>> spoke. Anyone here have experience with that?

??
>>>> Of the half dozen to a dozen spokes that broke on my bike over the
>>>> years, I only remember one that flapped loose. I don't remember
>>>> the details, but I did have to stop and bend it around the
>>>> remaining spokes to get home.

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>>> How long have you been riding a high wheeler with 3mm diameter
>>> black radial spokes with threads at both ends? I assume you cite
>>> your experience because it applies to such a bicycle.

> Carl Fogel writes:
>> Er, how long have _you_ been riding a high wheeler?

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Never, but I don't suggest that spokes of a high wheeler cannot toss
> a rider off the bicycle when they break. In the years I have worked
> with spokes I have seen spoke break at the hub and the treads and I
> have seen spokes get into the gear cluster after breaking.
> I think you should re-read the above and see that there is no value to
> someone saying they never broke a spoke that could tangle the wheel
> and therefore, tying spokes had no connection with that.

I simply noticed that for several days I heard the occasional sound of
the broken spoke slapping the inside of my fork blade. I began to wonder
how or on what it could catch solidly enough to stop a wheel.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 04 Jun 2007 14:51:14
From:
Subject: Re: broken spoke

On 04 Jun 2007 18:33:25 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

>Carl Fogel writes:
>
>>>>> I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in wheel)
>>>>> and the occasional slapping sound reminds me of "tied/soldered
>>>>> spokes won't foul on the fork when broken".
>
>>>>> Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it will,
>>>>> I wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes really
>>>>> are. I can't recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a broken
>>>>> spoke. Anyone here have experience with that?
>
>>>> Of the half dozen to a dozen spokes that broke on my bike over the
>>>> years, I only remember one that flapped loose. I don't remember
>>>> the details, but I did have to stop and bend it around the
>>>> remaining spokes to get home.
>
>>> How long have you been riding a high wheeler with 3mm diameter
>>> black radial spokes with threads at both ends? I assume you cite
>>> your experience because it applies to such a bicycle.
>
>> Er, how long have _you_ been riding a high wheeler?
>
>Never, but I don't suggest that spokes of a high wheeler cannot toss
>a rider off the bicycle when they break. In the years I have worked
>with spokes I have seen spoke break at the hub and the treads and I
>have seen spokes get into the gear cluster after breaking.

[snip]

Dear Jobst,

Er, normal highwheelers lacked gears.

And you're making a suggestion with your usual dogmatic attitude about
a kind of bicycle with which you have no experience.

So far, I haven't been able to find _anything_ in original sources
about tying and soldering as a remedy for broken spokes. Indeed,
broken spokes don't seem show up as a problem.

When broken spokes are mentioned, they usually come in unspeakable
swarms, due to crashes. If you think that your bike was mistreated by
airline baggage mashers, read the following highwheeler passage and
call yourself lucky. I'd love to know exactly what Stevens'
"spoke-vise" was.

"The cause of this turmoil shortly turns up in the shape of my wheel,
with no less than eleven spokes broken, and the rim considerably
twisted out of shape. Kiftan Sahib surveys the damaged wheel a moment,
draws his own rawhide from his kammerbund, and rises to his feet. With
a hoarse cry of alarm the negro vanishes into the surrounding gloom;
the next moment is heard his eager chuckling laugh, the spontaneous
result of his lucky escape from Kiftan Sahib's vengeful rawhide.
Kiftan Sahib keeps a desultory lookout for him all the evening, but
the wary negro is more eagerly watchful than he, and during
supper-time he hovers perpetually about the encircling wall of
darkness, ready to vanish into its impenetrable depths at the first
aggressive demonstration."

"The explanation of the negro is that the black horse laid down with
his load. The wheel presents a well-nigh ruined appearance, and I
retire to my couch in a most unenviable frame of mind; lying awake for
hours, pondering over the probability of being able to fix it up again
at Herat. . . ."

The whole of the fifth and sixth days are consumed in the task of
repairing the damages to the bicycle, the result being highly
satisfactory, considering everything. Six new spokes that I have with
me have been inserted, and sundry others stretched and the ends newly
threaded. The gunsmiths are quite expert workmen, considering the
tools they have to work with, and when they happen to drill a hole a
trifle crooked, they are full of apologies, and remind me that this is
Afghanistan and not Frangistan. They know and appreciate good material
when they see it, and during the process of heating and stretching the
spokes, loud and profuse are the praises bestowed upon the quality of
the iron. 'Koob awhan,' they say, 'Khylie koob awhan; Ferenghi awhan
koob.' As artisans, interested in mechanical affairs, the ball
bearings of the pedals, one of which I take apart to show them,
excites their profound admiration as evidence of the marvellous skill
of the Ferenghis. Much careful work is required to spring the rim of
the wheel back into a true circle, every spoke having to be loosened
and the whole wheel newly adjusted. Except for the handy little
spoke-vice which I very fortunately brought with me, this work of
adjustment would have been impossible. As there is probably nothing
obtainable in Herat that would have answered the purpose, no
alternative would have been left but to have carried the bicycle out
of the country on horseback. After the coterie of gunsmiths have
exhausted their ingenuity and my own resources have been expended,
three spokes are missing entirely, two others are stretched and
weakened, and of the six new ones some are forced into holes partially
spoiled in the unskillful boring out of broken ends. Yet, with all
these defects, so thoroughly has it stood the severest tests of the
roads, that I apprehend little or no trouble about breakages."

"Around the World on a Bicycle Volume II," Chapter X1, Thomas Stevens

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13749/13749.txt

And here's "Karl Kron" describing the condition of No. 234 after a
tow-path accident:

"And now I come to the miracle in the case, for not a single part of
tthe bike was really broken! [Read on--this highwheeler rider has a
different definition of "unbroken"!] Though bent and cracked and
scratched and badly demoralized in its several parts, my beloved
bicycle had survived this crucial test--had maintained its integrity
as a whole, and was still ridable! The handle-bar was doubled back,
and, when I bent it into its place again, it cracked where the splice
had recently been made, and soon broke off entirely. I therefore
steered with a wagon-spoke for the next eight miles, until I reached a
blacksmith shop where I could get thte bar rewelded. The crank and
pedal-pin [probably the equivalent of the cotter-bolt for a modern
cottered crank] on the right side were considerably bent and cracked
att the point where it struck the bridge, and two or three of the
adjacent spokes were thereby loosened and made useless. One of them
broke off a few days later, and I gave it for a keepsake to a rider in
Carlisle. The iron plate of the long-distance saddle--with which I
began the season of '83, and which served me satisfactorily to the
lastt--was cracked in two places, so that it never afterwards could be
screwed with perfect firmness to the spring [highwheeler saddles sat
on long and often elaborate leaf springs attached to the backbone].
One end of the wire of my Lamson luggage-carrier was also twisted off,
but the carrier, like the saddle, I nevertheless kept in service until
the very last day of the record [10,000 miles on a highwheeler]. . ."

"But the bulge in the rim, resulting from the accident with the mules
[on the canal towpath], was sufficiently prnounced to give me a
definite jolt at each revolution of the wheel during the 463 miles
subsequently traversed in reaching the goal; and I thought that,
before beginning the return journey, I might perhaps remedy the
mattter a little by 'tightening up the spokes.' It was my first
experience of the sort, and it proved quite effectual--though not in
the manner intended. When I had completed the tightening process, I
found the rim was so badly twisted that it would not revolve in the
fork at all; and my later efforts to 'unbuckle' it were quite in vain,
though I snapped another spoke in making them."

"Ten Thousand Miles on a Bicycle," p. 45-6. Karl Kron [Lyman Hotchkiss
Bagg]

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 05 Jun 2007 04:36:26
From:
Subject: Re: broken spoke

Carl Fogel writes:

>>>>>> I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in
>>>>>> wheel) and the occasional slapping sound reminds me of
>>>>>> "tied/soldered spokes won't foul on the fork when broken".

>>>>>> Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it
>>>>>> will, I wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes
>>>>>> really are. I can't recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a
>>>>>> broken spoke. Anyone here have experience with that?

>>>>> Of the half dozen to a dozen spokes that broke on my bike over
>>>>> the years, I only remember one that flapped loose. I don't
>>>>> remember the details, but I did have to stop and bend it around
>>>>> the remaining spokes to get home.

>>>> How long have you been riding a high wheeler with 3mm diameter
>>>> black radial spokes with threads at both ends? I assume you cite
>>>> your experience because it applies to such a bicycle.

>>> Er, how long have _you_ been riding a high wheeler?

>> Never, but I don't suggest that spokes of a high wheeler cannot
>> toss a rider off the bicycle when they break. In the years I have
>> worked with spokes I have seen spoke break at the hub and the
>> treads and I have seen spokes get into the gear cluster after
>> breaking.

> Er, normal highwheelers lacked gears.

Oh shit. My example was given to make clear that spokes can break,
swing out to the side and get tangled in the frame, fork or other
components. It was not a comment on gearing on high wheelers.

> And you're making a suggestion with your usual dogmatic attitude
> about a kind of bicycle with which you have no experience.

I see one daily here in Palo Alto and the bicycle shop has one on
display (for sale). The Zweiradsmuseum in Neckarsulm (D) has plenty
of them in original form, not replicas. It is easy to inspect them
but less obvious to non engineers what problems one might encounter,
much like Shimano Octalink, that escaped understanding, even by their
staff, until they dropped the concept after the second misadventure.

> So far, I haven't been able to find _anything_ in original sources
> about tying and soldering as a remedy for broken spokes. Indeed,
> broken spokes don't seem show up as a problem.

> When broken spokes are mentioned, they usually come in unspeakable
> swarms, due to crashes. If you think that your bike was mistreated
> by airline baggage mashers, read the following highwheeler passage
> and call yourself lucky. I'd love to know exactly what Stevens'
> "spoke-vise" was.

I don't recall where I saw that item about tying spokes, but it was
specifically about Starley's cross laced spoking on "ordinaries". As
far as a spoke vise goes, one is pictured in "the Bicycle Wheel". It
is an adjustable clamping spoke wrench, one with which the noted
Spence Wolf of Cupertino Bicycles built all his wheels, a true
traditionalist. It was tedious!

> "The cause of this turmoil shortly turns up in the shape of my
> wheel, with no less than eleven spokes broken, and the rim
> considerably twisted out of shape. Kiftan Sahib surveys the damaged
> wheel a moment, draws his own rawhide from his kammerbund, and rises
> to his feet. With a hoarse cry of alarm the negro vanishes into the
> surrounding gloom; the next moment is heard his eager chuckling
> laugh, the spontaneous result of his lucky escape from Kiftan
> Sahib's vengeful rawhide. Kiftan Sahib keeps a desultory lookout
> for him all the evening, but the wary negro is more eagerly watchful
> than he, and during supper-time he hovers perpetually about the
> encircling wall of darkness, ready to vanish into its impenetrable
> depths at the first aggressive demonstration."

> "The explanation of the negro is that the black horse laid down with
> his load. The wheel presents a well-nigh ruined appearance, and I
> retire to my couch in a most unenviable frame of mind; lying awake
> for hours, pondering over the probability of being able to fix it up
> again at Herat. . . ."

> The whole of the fifth and sixth days are consumed in the task of
> repairing the damages to the bicycle, the result being highly
> satisfactory, considering everything. Six new spokes that I have
> with me have been inserted, and sundry others stretched and the ends
> newly threaded. The gunsmiths are quite expert workmen, considering
> the tools they have to work with, and when they happen to drill a
> hole a trifle crooked, they are full of apologies, and remind me
> that this is Afghanistan and not Frangistan. They know and
> appreciate good material when they see it, and during the process of
> heating and stretching the spokes, loud and profuse are the praises
> bestowed upon the quality of the iron. 'Koob awhan,' they say,
> 'Khylie koob awhan; Ferenghi awhan koob.' As artisans, interested in
> mechanical affairs, the ball bearings of the pedals, one of which I
> take apart to show them, excites their profound admiration as
> evidence of the marvellous skill of the Ferenghis. Much careful
> work is required to spring the rim of the wheel back into a true
> circle, every spoke having to be loosened and the whole wheel newly
> adjusted. Except for the handy little spoke-vice which I very
> fortunately brought with me, this work of adjustment would have been
> impossible. As there is probably nothing obtainable in Herat that
> would have answered the purpose, no alternative would have been left
> but to have carried the bicycle out of the country on horseback.
> After the coterie of gunsmiths have exhausted their ingenuity and my
> own resources have been expended, three spokes are missing entirely,
> two others are stretched and weakened, and of the six new ones some
> are forced into holes partially spoiled in the unskillful boring out
> of broken ends. Yet, with all these defects, so thoroughly has it
> stood the severest tests of the roads, that I apprehend little or no
> trouble about breakages."

> "Around the World on a Bicycle Volume II," Chapter X1, Thomas
Stevens

> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13749/13749.txt

> And here's "Karl Kron" describing the condition of No. 234 after a
> tow-path accident:

> "And now I come to the miracle in the case, for not a single part of
> the bike was really broken! [Read on--this highwheeler rider has a
> different definition of "unbroken"!] Though bent and cracked and
> scratched and badly demoralized in its several parts, my beloved
> bicycle had survived this crucial test--had maintained its integrity
> as a whole, and was still ridable! The handle-bar was doubled back,
> and, when I bent it into its place again, it cracked where the
> splice had recently been made, and soon broke off entirely. I
> therefore steered with a wagon-spoke for the next eight miles, until
> I reached a blacksmith shop where I could get the bar re-welded.
> The crank and pedal-pin [probably the equivalent of the cotter-bolt
> for a modern cottered crank] on the right side were considerably
> bent and cracked at the point where it struck the bridge, and two or
> three of the adjacent spokes were thereby loosened and made useless.
> One of them broke off a few days later, and I gave it for a keepsake
> to a rider in Carlisle. The iron plate of the long-distance
> saddle--with which I began the season of '83, and which served me
> satisfactorily to the lastt--was cracked in two places, so that it
> never afterwards could be screwed with perfect firmness to the
> spring [highwheeler saddles sat on long and often elaborate leaf
> springs attached to the backbone]. One end of the wire of my Lamson
> luggage-carrier was also twisted off, but the carrier, like the
> saddle, I nevertheless kept in service until the very last day of
> the record [10,000 miles on a highwheeler]. . ."

Well, the story has some gaping holes. You can't break spokes by
collapsing a wheel. They must be cracked and redy to break to fail on
wheel distortion. Bicycles hit by cars with destroyed wheels have
slack and bent spokes but they do not break as a rule.

> "But the bulge in the rim, resulting from the accident with the
> mules [on the canal towpath], was sufficiently prnounced to give me
> a definite jolt at each revolution of the wheel during the 463 miles
> subsequently traversed in reaching the goal; and I thought that,
> before beginning the return journey, I might perhaps remedy the
> mattter a little by 'tightening up the spokes.' It was my first
> experience of the sort, and it proved quite effectual--though not in
> the manner intended. When I had completed the tightening process, I
> found the rim was so badly twisted that it would not revolve in the
> fork at all; and my later efforts to 'unbuckle' it were quite in
> vain, though I snapped another spoke in making them."

I think the story sounds good but is not credible. You ought to try
to break spokes in a wheel that you don't care to use any longer.

> "Ten Thousand Miles on a Bicycle," p. 45-6. Karl Kron [Lyman
> Hotchkiss Bagg]

Jobst Brandt

Date: 04 Jun 2007 22:46:53
From:
Subject: Re: broken spoke

On 05 Jun 2007 04:36:26 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

>Carl Fogel writes:
>
>>>>>>> I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in
>>>>>>> wheel) and the occasional slapping sound reminds me of
>>>>>>> "tied/soldered spokes won't foul on the fork when broken".
>
>>>>>>> Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it
>>>>>>> will, I wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes
>>>>>>> really are. I can't recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a
>>>>>>> broken spoke. Anyone here have experience with that?
>
>>>>>> Of the half dozen to a dozen spokes that broke on my bike over
>>>>>> the years, I only remember one that flapped loose. I don't
>>>>>> remember the details, but I did have to stop and bend it around
>>>>>> the remaining spokes to get home.
>
>>>>> How long have you been riding a high wheeler with 3mm diameter
>>>>> black radial spokes with threads at both ends? I assume you cite
>>>>> your experience because it applies to such a bicycle.
>
>>>> Er, how long have _you_ been riding a high wheeler?
>
>>> Never, but I don't suggest that spokes of a high wheeler cannot
>>> toss a rider off the bicycle when they break. In the years I have
>>> worked with spokes I have seen spoke break at the hub and the
>>> treads and I have seen spokes get into the gear cluster after
>>> breaking.
>
>> Er, normal highwheelers lacked gears.
>
>Oh shit. My example was given to make clear that spokes can break,
>swing out to the side and get tangled in the frame, fork or other
>components. It was not a comment on gearing on high wheelers.
>
>> And you're making a suggestion with your usual dogmatic attitude
>> about a kind of bicycle with which you have no experience.
>
>I see one daily here in Palo Alto and the bicycle shop has one on
>display (for sale). The Zweiradsmuseum in Neckarsulm (D) has plenty
>of them in original form, not replicas. It is easy to inspect them.

[snip]

Dear Jobst,

Er, I wrote:

"Er, how long have _you_ been riding a high wheeler?"

You replied:

"Never."

That's the kind of experience that I had in mind.

:)

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 05 Jun 2007 05:20:58
From:
Subject: Re: broken spoke

Carl Fogel writes:

>>>>>>>> I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in
>>>>>>>> wheel) and the occasional slapping sound reminds me of
>>>>>>>> "tied/soldered spokes won't foul on the fork when broken".

>>>>>>>> Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it
>>>>>>>> will, I wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes
>>>>>>>> really are. I can't recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a
>>>>>>>> broken spoke. Anyone here have experience with that?

>>>>>>> Of the half dozen to a dozen spokes that broke on my bike over
>>>>>>> the years, I only remember one that flapped loose. I don't
>>>>>>> remember the details, but I did have to stop and bend it around
>>>>>>> the remaining spokes to get home.

>>>>>> How long have you been riding a high wheeler with 3mm diameter
>>>>>> black radial spokes with threads at both ends? I assume you cite
>>>>>> your experience because it applies to such a bicycle.

>>>>> Er, how long have _you_ been riding a high wheeler?

>>>> Never, but I don't suggest that spokes of a high wheeler cannot
>>>> toss a rider off the bicycle when they break. In the years I have
>>>> worked with spokes I have seen spoke break at the hub and the
>>>> treads and I have seen spokes get into the gear cluster after
>>>> breaking.

>>> Er, normal highwheelers lacked gears.

>> Oh shit. My example was given to make clear that spokes can break,
>> swing out to the side and get tangled in the frame, fork or other
>> components. It was not a comment on gearing on high wheelers.

>>> And you're making a suggestion with your usual dogmatic attitude
>>> about a kind of bicycle with which you have no experience.

>> I see one daily here in Palo Alto and the bicycle shop has one on
>> display (for sale). The Zweiradsmuseum in Neckarsulm (D) has plenty
>> of them in original form, not replicas. It is easy to inspect them.

> Er, I wrote:

> "Er, how long have _you_ been riding a high wheeler?"

> You replied:

> "Never."

> That's the kind of experience that I had in mind.

> :)

I also never rode an octalink crank and other failed designes that I
analyzed and critiqued here on this forum. You seem to believe such
things can only be known by trial and error. That's not the way I
believe machinery should be designed. I have never driven a formula
one car but I designed a lage part of the one that Dan Gurney drove to
victory in 1962 at Rouen-les-Essarts (F).

http://tinyurl.com/2ypbfs

Jobst Brandt

Date: 05 Jun 2007 01:40:15
From:
Subject: Re: broken spoke

On 05 Jun 2007 05:20:58 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

>Carl Fogel writes:
>
>>>>>>>>> I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in
>>>>>>>>> wheel) and the occasional slapping sound reminds me of
>>>>>>>>> "tied/soldered spokes won't foul on the fork when broken".
>
>>>>>>>>> Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it
>>>>>>>>> will, I wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes
>>>>>>>>> really are. I can't recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a
>>>>>>>>> broken spoke. Anyone here have experience with that?
>
>>>>>>>> Of the half dozen to a dozen spokes that broke on my bike over
>>>>>>>> the years, I only remember one that flapped loose. I don't
>>>>>>>> remember the details, but I did have to stop and bend it around
>>>>>>>> the remaining spokes to get home.
>
>>>>>>> How long have you been riding a high wheeler with 3mm diameter
>>>>>>> black radial spokes with threads at both ends? I assume you cite
>>>>>>> your experience because it applies to such a bicycle.
>
>>>>>> Er, how long have _you_ been riding a high wheeler?
>
>>>>> Never, but I don't suggest that spokes of a high wheeler cannot
>>>>> toss a rider off the bicycle when they break. In the years I have
>>>>> worked with spokes I have seen spoke break at the hub and the
>>>>> treads and I have seen spokes get into the gear cluster after
>>>>> breaking.
>
>>>> Er, normal highwheelers lacked gears.
>
>>> Oh shit. My example was given to make clear that spokes can break,
>>> swing out to the side and get tangled in the frame, fork or other
>>> components. It was not a comment on gearing on high wheelers.
>
>>>> And you're making a suggestion with your usual dogmatic attitude
>>>> about a kind of bicycle with which you have no experience.
>
>>> I see one daily here in Palo Alto and the bicycle shop has one on
>>> display (for sale). The Zweiradsmuseum in Neckarsulm (D) has plenty
>>> of them in original form, not replicas. It is easy to inspect them.
>
>> Er, I wrote:
>
>> "Er, how long have _you_ been riding a high wheeler?"
>
>> You replied:
>
>> "Never."
>
>> That's the kind of experience that I had in mind.
>
>> :)
>
>I also never rode an octalink crank and other failed designes that I
>analyzed and critiqued here on this forum. You seem to believe such
>things can only be known by trial and error. That's not the way I
>believe machinery should be designed. I have never driven a formula
>one car but I designed a lage part of the one that Dan Gurney drove to
>victory in 1962 at Rouen-les-Essarts (F).
>
>http://tinyurl.com/2ypbfs
>
>Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

You could be right, but I'm still skeptical.

Which end do you think the tying-and-soldering at the crossing
restrained on a highwheeler?

The end at the hub, already well-restrained by typical crossings?

Or the end at the rim, about 18 inches away from both the tie and the
crossings?

Can you point us to _any_ contemporary reference to broken spokes
causing a problem on a highwheeler?

My suspicion is that they tied and soldered spokes because cross
lacing allowed them to do it.

They might have had a vague (and almost certainly mistaken) notion
that it would strengthen the wheel.

They might also have been trying to stop broken spokes from getting
stuck in the fork or the pedals or the rider's leg.

But I can't find any contemporary references to either theory.

I sympathize with your frustration at remembering some quote about it
and not being able to find it. Elusive quotes are part of my former
line of work, and I may well hate them more than you do.

(I'm still boring friends with my incredibly petty triumph over an
obscure Kipling quote that plagued me for years.)

I've looked through "King of the Road" without finding your quote (I
could have missed it) because I'd love to find that you're dead right.

But more and more I want to see something contemporary about tying and
soldering, not the it-makes-stronger claims of small-wheel builders
who were obviously following a fashion and not suspiciously
theoretical explanations that don't really seem to work and haven't
any historical basis.

Rest assured, if I find that quote about twine at the crossings to
restrain broken spokes (or anything that even hints at it), you'll see
it on RBT.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 05 Jun 2007 18:56:37
From:
Subject: Re: broken spoke

Carl Fogel writes:

>>>>>>>>>> I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in
>>>>>>>>>> wheel) and the occasional slapping sound reminds me of
>>>>>>>>>> "tied/soldered spokes won't foul on the fork when broken".

>>>>>>>>>> Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it
>>>>>>>>>> will, I wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes
>>>>>>>>>> really are. I can't recall seeing a wheel actually stopped
>>>>>>>>>> by a broken spoke. Anyone here have experience with that?

>>>>>>>>> Of the half dozen to a dozen spokes that broke on my bike
>>>>>>>>> over the years, I only remember one that flapped loose. I
>>>>>>>>> don't remember the details, but I did have to stop and bend
>>>>>>>>> it around the remaining spokes to get home.

>>>>>>>> How long have you been riding a high wheeler with 3mm
>>>>>>>> diameter black radial spokes with threads at both ends? I
>>>>>>>> assume you cite your experience because it applies to such a
>>>>>>>> bicycle.

>>>>>>> Er, how long have _you_ been riding a high wheeler?

>>>>>> Never, but I don't suggest that spokes of a high wheeler cannot
>>>>>> toss a rider off the bicycle when they break. In the years I
>>>>>> have worked with spokes I have seen spoke break at the hub and
>>>>>> the treads and I have seen spokes get into the gear cluster
>>>>>> after breaking.

>>>>> Er, normal highwheelers lacked gears.

>>>> Oh shit. My example was given to make clear that spokes can
>>>> break, swing out to the side and get tangled in the frame, fork
>>>> or other components. It was not a comment on gearing on high
>>>> wheelers.

>>>>> And you're making a suggestion with your usual dogmatic attitude
>>>>> about a kind of bicycle with which you have no experience.

>>>> I see one daily here in Palo Alto and the bicycle shop has one on
>>>> display (for sale). The Zweiradsmuseum in Neckarsulm (D) has
>>>> plenty of them in original form, not replicas. It is easy to
>>>> inspect them.

>>> Er, I wrote:

>>> "Er, how long have _you_ been riding a high wheeler?"

>>> You replied:

>>> "Never."

>>> That's the kind of experience that I had in mind.

>> I also never rode an Octalink crank and other failed designs that I
>> analyzed and critiqued here on this forum. You seem to believe
>> such things can only be known by trial and error. That's not the
>> way I believe machinery should be designed. I have never driven a
>> formula one car but I designed a large part of the one that Dan
>> Gurney drove to victory in 1962 at Rouen-les-Essarts (F).

http://tinyurl.com/2ypbfs

> You could be right, but I'm still skeptical.

> Which end do you think the tying-and-soldering at the crossing
> restrained on a highwheeler?

Think triangulation and see that when a rigid spoke is attached at one
end to either the hub or the rim and tied at some intermediate point
to a taut spoke. The position of the broken spoke is fixed by being
held at two points, its end and tie location.

> The end at the hub, already well-restrained by typical crossings?

Radial wheels did not do that and many of them had threads at both
ends, with a rotatable spoke nipple at the rim. You are visualizing
an interleaved crossing spoke pattern. I don't know that this was the
method use considering the thickness (rigidity) of the early spokes.

> Or the end at the rim, about 18 inches away from both the tie and
> the crossings?

I realize now that when I read that item, it made perfect sense to me
because radial spoking worked well as you can see from pictures in
Ritchie's "King of the Road" and tangential lacing promised nothing if
it wasn't tying spokes together. Later I realized I could not find
that reference, having never thought that a doubting opposition was so
bent on disproving the item.

> Can you point us to _any_ contemporary reference to broken spokes
> causing a problem on a highwheeler?

As I said, I was not prepared to cite the source, thinking is would be
as obvious to others as it was to me in the presence of most high
wheelers using purely radial spokes.

> My suspicion is that they tied and soldered spokes because cross
> lacing allowed them to do it.

I don't see the logic. No one had tied spokes together previously and
no one could reasonably explain a mechanical benefit.

> They might have had a vague (and almost certainly mistaken) notion
> that it would strengthen the wheel.

As I said, I came upon the method and immediately questioned its value
because it is mechanically so illogical. The people who works on
bicycles were the leading edge of technology... before they moved on
to automobiles and aircraft as Starley did. The concept of improving
wheel strength would not have been tossed in the ring by these people.
Certainly not without some proof.

> They might also have been trying to stop broken spokes from getting
> stuck in the fork or the pedals or the rider's leg.

Yes, go on...

> But I can't find any contemporary references to either theory.

Sometimes a process of elimination is required to make sens of these
things. Recall that the reason for road and track glue on tubular
tires was lost with WWII and no one knew why we had two types of glue,
proffering all sorts of illogical reasons. It was not until I saw the
RR test from IRC that it was obvious why we had the two types.

> I sympathize with your frustration at remembering some quote about
> it and not being able to find it. Elusive quotes are part of my
> former line of work, and I may well hate them more than you do.

I sense the same frustration Wikipedia evokes, in that a concept
cannot stand on its own merit or scientific discovery without
reference to other work published on the web. I think you can figure
this one out by yourself if you don't have a vested interest in tying
and soldering for wheel strength.

> (I'm still boring friends with my incredibly petty triumph over an
> obscure Kipling quote that plagued me for years.)

> I've looked through "King of the Road" without finding your quote (I
> could have missed it) because I'd love to find that you're dead
> right.

I looked there too and believe it appears in an unrelated section as
an afterthought, but it struck a chord with me because I have
questioned the practice from the moment I first saw it, never having
found a reason for its origins until I read that item.

> But more and more I want to see something contemporary about tying
> and soldering, not the it-makes-stronger claims of small-wheel
> builders who were obviously following a fashion and not suspiciously
> theoretical explanations that don't really seem to work and haven't
> any historical basis.

I suspect you read the analysis of it in "the Bicycle Wheel" in which
there was no measurable trace of structural benefit.

> Rest assured, if I find that quote about twine at the crossings to
> restrain broken spokes (or anything that even hints at it), you'll
> see it on RBT.

Thanks, I wish you success.

Jobst Brandt

Date: 02 Jun 2007 16:23:27
From: landotter
Subject: Re: broken spoke

On Jun 1, 4:54 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in wheel) and the
> occasional slapping sound reminds me of "tied/soldered spokes won't foul
> on the fork when broken".
>
> Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it will, I
> wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes really are. I can't
> recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a broken spoke. Anyone here
> have experience with that?

Ha, I was thinking about that the day before yesterday when I popped a
spoke two miles from home (cheesy Chinese spoked Nashbar wheel set
that's begging for new Sapims...), as every broken spoke I've ever
seen, it fractured at the elbow. With 3X lacing, there's no risk
whatsoever, IMHO. Just a quick pop, and I knew what it was, so reached
back and undid the QR so I could get home and scrounge a spoke.

Date: 02 Jun 2007 14:18:21
From: Avagadro IV
Subject: Re: broken spoke

The rear rack's load is held down with shock cords. Once in a blue
moon but not ofetn enough to actually do somehting about it, a cord
comes loose and wraps itself around the mechanism. I then ask myself:
^^%$$!!(**)&^^^ >>?!@##%!
A loose spoke occupies the same space. What harmful destructive and
fatal actions a loose spoke do? If you stop rowing, the water will
come in and the pumps fail right?
I fear the spoke will poke thru the velox and uncture the tube.
But in practice, and $%#@@!!!(&&&) >>3210 this takes practice, ifn yawl
back up with a loose spoke with a full bladder in the middle of a busy
parking lot then you are dead meat.

Date: 02 Jun 2007 08:43:49
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: broken spoke

Avagadro IV wrote:
> The rear rack's load is held down with shock cords. Once in a blue
> moon but not ofetn enough to actually do somehting about it, a cord
> comes loose and wraps itself around the mechanism. I then ask myself:
> ^^%$$!!(**)&^^^>>?!@##%!
> A loose spoke occupies the same space. What harmful destructive and
> fatal actions a loose spoke do? If you stop rowing, the water will
> come in and the pumps fail right?
> I fear the spoke will poke thru the velox and uncture the tube.
> But in practice, and $%#@@!!!(&&&)>>3210 this takes practice, ifn yawl
> back up with a loose spoke with a full bladder in the middle of a busy
> parking lot then you are dead meat.

Gene...with Caps Back?!?

Date: 01 Jun 2007 21:06:51
From:
Subject: Re: broken spoke

>
> (Yes, I'm going to put in a new spoke.)

I can give you some good sources...

Date: 01 Jun 2007 20:44:12
From: Brian Huntley
Subject: Re: broken spoke

On Jun 1, 7:51 pm, "Kerry Montgomery" <kamon...@teleport.com > wrote:

> Thanks again for all the photos,

Not meaning to besmirch good fellow Carl, who's contributions here are
very much appreciated, but most or all of the photos are in fact
Carsten Hoefer's, and were taken in the Two-Wheeler Museum in
Neckarsulm, Germany (as per Carsten's CrazyGuyOnaBike.com page.)

Carsten's one of the best writers on CGoaB (in my opinion) and all his
articles are worth a peek, by the way.

Date: 01 Jun 2007 17:34:18
From:
Subject: Re: broken spoke

On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 16:54:27 -0500, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org >
wrote:

>I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in wheel) and the
>occasional slapping sound reminds me of "tied/soldered spokes won't foul
>on the fork when broken".
>
>Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it will, I
>wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes really are. I can't
>recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a broken spoke. Anyone here
>have experience with that?
>
>(Yes, I'm going to put in a new spoke.)

Dear Andrew,

Another opportunity for digression! Thanks!

Forget tying and soldering with crude wire--here's what you need:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120248&v=EK&size=large

Yes, the elite use special-made clips (I think) and solder, as seen
above on an 1897 Columbia chainless. They may not be called knarps,
but surely Yellow Jersey still sells such spoke-tie clips under some
name?

Note the handsome shaft-drive gears, showing little wear. The plastic
is probably to keep the grease from dripping on the museum floor.

Here's the whole Columbia chainless bike, with spoon brake, fenders,
wooden rims, shaft drive, and honking gas headlamp:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120246&v=ES&size=large

Elsewhere, the site shows Starley's 1885 Rover Safety, with a huge
block chain, a front sprocket secured by a cotter-bolt, and the slots
for adjusting pedal length that were popular with highwheelers:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120239&v=Ek&size=large

I _think_ that this Rover uses radial lacing, front and rear. The
front is plainly radial, but the camera angle makes it harder to tell
about the rear. When I look at every other rear spoke, the apparent
rear crossings seem to disappear:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120238&v=En&size=large

Yet the reproduced Rover picture earlier in this series plainly shows
tangent lacing, front and rear:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=150971&v=8x&size=large

Possibly the actual "Rover" with radial lacing is not a _Starley_
Rover--the museum card at the foot of the picture is fuzzy, but seems
to call it a B----- Rover.

Gratuitous Opel 1895 quintuple tandem porn.

I _think_ that the odd tubes on the front reinforce the fork:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120243&v=EQ&size=large

Captain's bars are up high, but everyone else hunches down, plus
impressive rear axle nuts:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120244&v=EK&size=large

Caution: explicit block chain!

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120245&v=EJ&size=large

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 02 Jun 2007 03:54:57
From:
Subject: Re: broken spoke

Carl Fogel writes:

> Here's the whole Columbia chainless bike, with spoon brake, fenders,
> wooden rims, shaft drive, and honking gas headlamp:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120246&v=ES&size=large

> Elsewhere, the site shows Starley's 1885 Rover Safety, with a huge
> block chain, a front sprocket secured by a cotter-bolt, and the
> slots for adjusting pedal length that were popular with
> highwheelers:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120239&v=Ek&size=large

> I _think_ that this Rover uses radial lacing, front and rear. The
> front is plainly radial, but the camera angle makes it harder to
> tell about the rear. When I look at every other rear spoke, the
> apparent rear crossings seem to disappear:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120238&v=En&size=large

> Yet the reproduced Rover picture earlier in this series plainly shows
> tangent lacing, front and rear:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=150971&v=8x&size=large

They look radial to me, front and rear.

> Possibly the actual "Rover" with radial lacing is not a _Starley_
> Rover--the museum card at the foot of the picture is fuzzy, but seems
> to call it a B----- Rover.

> Gratuitous Opel 1895 quintuple tandem porn.

> I _think_ that the odd tubes on the front reinforce the fork:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120243&v=EQ&size=large

> Captain's bars are up high, but everyone else hunches down, plus
> impressive rear axle nuts:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120244&v=EK&size=large

> Caution: explicit block chain!

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120245&v=EJ&size=large

Jobst Brandt

Date: 02 Jun 2007 00:51:09
From: Kerry Montgomery
Subject: Re: broken spoke

<carlfogel@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:gn816359vvj4oc6g3f02nce8h2poitkclu@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 16:54:27 -0500, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
> wrote:
>
>>I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in wheel) and the
>>occasional slapping sound reminds me of "tied/soldered spokes won't foul
>>on the fork when broken".
>>
>>Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it will, I
>>wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes really are. I can't
>>recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a broken spoke. Anyone here
>>have experience with that?
>>
>>(Yes, I'm going to put in a new spoke.)
>
> Dear Andrew,
>
> Another opportunity for digression! Thanks!
>
> Forget tying and soldering with crude wire--here's what you need:
>
> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120248&v=EK&size=large
>
> Yes, the elite use special-made clips (I think) and solder, as seen
> above on an 1897 Columbia chainless. They may not be called knarps,
> but surely Yellow Jersey still sells such spoke-tie clips under some
> name?
>
> Note the handsome shaft-drive gears, showing little wear. The plastic
> is probably to keep the grease from dripping on the museum floor.
>
> Here's the whole Columbia chainless bike, with spoon brake, fenders,
> wooden rims, shaft drive, and honking gas headlamp:
>
> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120246&v=ES&size=large
>
> Elsewhere, the site shows Starley's 1885 Rover Safety, with a huge
> block chain, a front sprocket secured by a cotter-bolt, and the slots
> for adjusting pedal length that were popular with highwheelers:
>
> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120239&v=Ek&size=large
>
> I _think_ that this Rover uses radial lacing, front and rear. The
> front is plainly radial, but the camera angle makes it harder to tell
> about the rear. When I look at every other rear spoke, the apparent
> rear crossings seem to disappear:
>
> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120238&v=En&size=large
>
> Yet the reproduced Rover picture earlier in this series plainly shows
> tangent lacing, front and rear:
>
> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=150971&v=8x&size=large
>
> Possibly the actual "Rover" with radial lacing is not a _Starley_
> Rover--the museum card at the foot of the picture is fuzzy, but seems
> to call it a B----- Rover.
>
> Gratuitous Opel 1895 quintuple tandem porn.
>
> I _think_ that the odd tubes on the front reinforce the fork:
>
> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120243&v=EQ&size=large
>
> Captain's bars are up high, but everyone else hunches down, plus
> impressive rear axle nuts:
>
> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120244&v=EK&size=large
>
> Caution: explicit block chain!
>
> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120245&v=EJ&size=large
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
Carl,
Thanks, now I have sprocket envy!
IF those chains ever stretched, it'd be a fairly tedious adjustment
procedure: move the rear wheel to set the last chain, then move the
eccentric under the next-to-last rider to set the next-to-last chain, then
move the eccentric under the next-to-next-to last rider to set the
next-to-next-to last chain, etc., and only in that order.
Thanks again for all the photos,
Kerry

Date: 01 Jun 2007 18:59:52
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: broken spoke

> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in wheel) and the
>> occasional slapping sound reminds me of "tied/soldered spokes won't foul
>> on the fork when broken".
>> Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it will, I
>> wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes really are. I can't
>> recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a broken spoke. Anyone here
>> have experience with that?
>> (Yes, I'm going to put in a new spoke.)

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> Another opportunity for digression! Thanks!
> Forget tying and soldering with crude wire--here's what you need:
> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120248&v=EK&size=large
> Yes, the elite use special-made clips (I think) and solder, as seen
> above on an 1897 Columbia chainless. They may not be called knarps,
> but surely Yellow Jersey still sells such spoke-tie clips under some
> name?
> Note the handsome shaft-drive gears, showing little wear. The plastic
> is probably to keep the grease from dripping on the museum floor.
> Here's the whole Columbia chainless bike, with spoon brake, fenders,
> wooden rims, shaft drive, and honking gas headlamp:
> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120246&v=ES&size=large
> Elsewhere, the site shows Starley's 1885 Rover Safety, with a huge
> block chain, a front sprocket secured by a cotter-bolt, and the slots
> for adjusting pedal length that were popular with highwheelers:
> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120239&v=Ek&size=large
> I _think_ that this Rover uses radial lacing, front and rear. The
> front is plainly radial, but the camera angle makes it harder to tell
> about the rear. When I look at every other rear spoke, the apparent
> rear crossings seem to disappear:
> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120238&v=En&size=large
> Yet the reproduced Rover picture earlier in this series plainly shows
> tangent lacing, front and rear:
> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=150971&v=8x&size=large
> Possibly the actual "Rover" with radial lacing is not a _Starley_
> Rover--the museum card at the foot of the picture is fuzzy, but seems
> to call it a B----- Rover.
> Gratuitous Opel 1895 quintuple tandem porn.
> I _think_ that the odd tubes on the front reinforce the fork:
> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120243&v=EQ&size=large
> Captain's bars are up high, but everyone else hunches down, plus
> impressive rear axle nuts:
> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120244&v=EK&size=large
> Caution: explicit block chain!
> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120245&v=EJ&size=large

Interesting photos, thanks
Any readers ever see a wheel stopped by a broken spoke? I haven't.

Where I'm going with this is that I suspect the 'rationale' for
tie-solder was bogus at the outset.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 04 Jun 2007 06:29:40
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: broken spoke

In article <1361coct09ces1b@corp.supernews.com >,
A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org > wrote:

> Interesting photos, thanks
> Any readers ever see a wheel stopped by a broken spoke? I haven't.
>
> Where I'm going with this is that I suspect the 'rationale' for
> tie-solder was bogus at the outset.

I credit the notion that 24 inches of wire flapping and
wrapping is enough to cause a header on a high-wheeler,
where you are always inches away from a header. A few
months ago a url was posted to a moving picture clip of
a recent high-wheeler incident.

--
Michael Press

Date: 02 Jun 2007 02:02:28
From:
Subject: Re: broken spoke

On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 18:59:52 -0500, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org >
wrote:

>> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in wheel) and the
>>> occasional slapping sound reminds me of "tied/soldered spokes won't foul
>>> on the fork when broken".
>>> Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it will, I
>>> wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes really are. I can't
>>> recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a broken spoke. Anyone here
>>> have experience with that?
>>> (Yes, I'm going to put in a new spoke.)
>
>carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> Another opportunity for digression! Thanks!
>> Forget tying and soldering with crude wire--here's what you need:
>> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120248&v=EK&size=large
>> Yes, the elite use special-made clips (I think) and solder, as seen
>> above on an 1897 Columbia chainless. They may not be called knarps,
>> but surely Yellow Jersey still sells such spoke-tie clips under some
>> name?
>> Note the handsome shaft-drive gears, showing little wear. The plastic
>> is probably to keep the grease from dripping on the museum floor.
>> Here's the whole Columbia chainless bike, with spoon brake, fenders,
>> wooden rims, shaft drive, and honking gas headlamp:
>> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120246&v=ES&size=large
>> Elsewhere, the site shows Starley's 1885 Rover Safety, with a huge
>> block chain, a front sprocket secured by a cotter-bolt, and the slots
>> for adjusting pedal length that were popular with highwheelers:
>> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120239&v=Ek&size=large
>> I _think_ that this Rover uses radial lacing, front and rear. The
>> front is plainly radial, but the camera angle makes it harder to tell
>> about the rear. When I look at every other rear spoke, the apparent
>> rear crossings seem to disappear:
>> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120238&v=En&size=large
>> Yet the reproduced Rover picture earlier in this series plainly shows
>> tangent lacing, front and rear:
>> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=150971&v=8x&size=large
>> Possibly the actual "Rover" with radial lacing is not a _Starley_
>> Rover--the museum card at the foot of the picture is fuzzy, but seems
>> to call it a B----- Rover.
>> Gratuitous Opel 1895 quintuple tandem porn.
>> I _think_ that the odd tubes on the front reinforce the fork:
>> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120243&v=EQ&size=large
>> Captain's bars are up high, but everyone else hunches down, plus
>> impressive rear axle nuts:
>> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120244&v=EK&size=large
>> Caution: explicit block chain!
>> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120245&v=EJ&size=large
>
>Interesting photos, thanks
>Any readers ever see a wheel stopped by a broken spoke? I haven't.
>
>Where I'm going with this is that I suspect the 'rationale' for
>tie-solder was bogus at the outset.

Dear Andrew,

The more I think about it, the more I waver on the original reasons
for tying and soldering.

Tying and soldering could have started as a vague attempt to restrain
broken spokes from catching things like legs and forks.

But spokes usually break at the hub-elbow on modern-style spokes, so
tying and soldering seems to be pretty much pointless. Tying and
soldering requires tangent lacing and spoke crossing, which
effectively restrains spokes that break at the hub. On a typical
modern cross-3 wheel, a spoke that breaks at the hub has to wiggled
and bent for removal. On the cross-8 monsters of the highwheeler era,
there were actually patents on spoke-couplers to make spoke
replacement easier.

Even if the old spokes broke at the rim, the soldering wouldn't do
much good in terms of restraint on a tangent-laced highwheeler. If the
spoke on this bike breaks at the rim, the soldered crossing doesn't
look as if it's going to be much help:

http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/transport/vintage_bikes/040930_cbr_mp_his_trans_vb_517.jpg

Close-up of tied and soldered spokes on same bike:
http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/transport/vintage_bikes/040930_cbr_mp_his_trans_vb_519.jpg

If tying and soldering was originally meant to restrain broken spokes,
it was probably ineffective.

It seems just as likely that spokes were tied and soldered in vague
hopes of strengthening the wheel. I haven't found any _old_ references
to tying and soldering, just later explanations from the era of modern
safety bikes.

But I did find this curious description (wish there were a picture):

"A Crypto bantam complete with the foot rest (often missing) and a
Beale and Strawe fitted with its original head badge and double tied
spokes in original condition must rate as one of the best three
machines displayed in any museum."

http://www.cyclemuseum.org.uk/vintagedetail.htm

The odd phrase "double tied spokes" suggests that someone tied and
soldered the spokes at _two_ crossings, possibly in hopes of making
the wheel really, really strong.

More and more, I wonder if spoke crossings weren't tied and soldered
merely because tangent spoking made it possible.

Tyinig and soldering doesn't seem likely to restrain spokes that break
at the rim (a rare problem), it doesn't seem to be needed for
cross-laced spokes that break at the hub (more common), and it doesn't
seem to add any strength to a wheel that can be measured (the modern
claim).

Like ribbons on the tail of a mule in the mines, tied and soldered
spokes may just be ornamental busy-work, with entertaining post-hoc
explanations.

I still want to find an ad for these soldered fittings:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120248&v=EK&size=large

That's an expensive 1897 Columbia chainless made by the Pope Co., the
largest bicycle company in the world back then, so we may be looking
at OEM high-speed production-line tying-and-soldering fittings.
They're probably as useless as tail fins, but I long to know more
about them.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 02 Jun 2007 03:59:37
From:
Subject: Re: broken spoke

Andrew Muzi writes:

> Where I'm going with this is that I suspect the 'rationale' for
> tie-solder was bogus at the outset.

We don't see many original high wheelers going far these days and the
ones I see are cross laced with modern spokes. Cross lacing, even
without tying, is a great leap forward, if the spokes are interleaved.
If you consider where rider CG is when hunched over the pedals going
fast, you can see there is nothing but the weight of the rear wheel
holding the bicycle from going over forward. Backpedaling can easily
do that.

Jobst Brandt

Date: 01 Jun 2007 23:13:14
From: Marcus Coles
Subject: Re: broken spoke

I think the main damage a broken unrestrained spoke will cause on a
bicycle with a reasonable number of spokes is to the paint and yes I
have seen this ;-)

In my hazy days of off-road motorcycling I recall the reason for tying
and soldering spokes was to reduce the potential for both injury and
flats and while I saw a few broken unsoldered spokes never an injury due
to them.

IMHO tied and soldered spokes look right on an appropriate vintage racer.

IME with 36 spoke wheels, tied and soldered spokes make even noticing a
broken spoke while riding unlikely, which is probably not a good thing
in some circumstances.

Marcus

Date: 01 Jun 2007 20:28:53
From:
Subject: Re: broken spoke

Date: 01 Jun 2007 18:55:19
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: broken spoke

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120245&v=EJ&size=large

That is not block chain.
it's 1" x 3/16 roller chain
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 02 Jun 2007 03:31:55
From:
Subject: Re: broken spoke

Andrew Muzi writes:

> That is not block chain, it's 1" x 3/16 roller chain:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120245&v=EJ&size=large

But this one is a block chain:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120239&v=Ek&size=large

Jobst Brandt

Date: 01 Jun 2007 20:12:58
From:
Subject: Re: broken spoke

On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 18:55:19 -0500, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org >
wrote:

>carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120245&v=EJ&size=large
>
>That is not block chain.
>it's 1" x 3/16 roller chain

Dear Andrew,

Aaargh! Even a quick glance shows that you're right--I must have let
the teeth and the Rover's block chain fool me.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 01 Jun 2007 22:42:21
From:
Subject: Re: broken spoke

Andrew Muzi writes:

> I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in wheel) and
> the occasional slapping sound reminds me of "tied/soldered spokes
> won't foul on the fork when broken".

> Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it will, I
> wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes really are. I
> can't recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a broken
> spoke. Anyone here have experience with that?

> (Yes, I'm going to put in a new spoke.)

Tying and soldering or better tying with twine and gluing was
introduced on high wheelers, where a fat crude spoke failure often
caused headers, they being so unstable in the forward direction that
they had no useful brake, one that would send the rider on his face
more often.

It was with the advent of the "safety" bicycle that wheel builders
didn't want to give up a new service that had been introduced shortly
before there were no more high wheelers, so they attributed all sorts
of wheel strength to the procedure, after losing its real purpose.
That fable lasted until publication of "the Bicycle Wheel" where the
benefits were measured and found not to exist.

Tying and soldering spokes, and hard glue for track tires were two
myths that were accepted in bicycling without question. It took me a
while to find the answers to these. Of course, block chain was
another of these. Track riders were sure that only a non roller chain
was strong enough to withstand the force of a good sprinter, and they
were all, all good sprinters. I recall how these guys made fun of my
friend Peter Johnson when he built his ultra light sprint bicycle,
using derailleur chain. It didn't bother them that he won anyway.

Myths don't die easily.

Jobst Brandt

Date: 04 Jun 2007 06:23:08
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: broken spoke

In article <4660a0cd$0$14125$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

> Myths don't die easily.
>

By definition, else they would not be myths.
We could call some of these methods zombies.

--
Michael Press

Date: 01 Jun 2007 18:52:22
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: broken spoke

> Andrew Muzi writes:
>> I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in wheel) and
>> the occasional slapping sound reminds me of "tied/soldered spokes
>> won't foul on the fork when broken".
>
>> Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it will, I
>> wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes really are. I
>> can't recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a broken
>> spoke. Anyone here have experience with that?
>
>> (Yes, I'm going to put in a new spoke.)

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Tying and soldering or better tying with twine and gluing was
> introduced on high wheelers, where a fat crude spoke failure often
> caused headers, they being so unstable in the forward direction that
> they had no useful brake, one that would send the rider on his face
> more often.
>
> It was with the advent of the "safety" bicycle that wheel builders
> didn't want to give up a new service that had been introduced shortly
> before there were no more high wheelers, so they attributed all sorts
> of wheel strength to the procedure, after losing its real purpose.
> That fable lasted until publication of "the Bicycle Wheel" where the
> benefits were measured and found not to exist.
>
> Tying and soldering spokes, and hard glue for track tires were two
> myths that were accepted in bicycling without question. It took me a
> while to find the answers to these. Of course, block chain was
> another of these. Track riders were sure that only a non roller chain
> was strong enough to withstand the force of a good sprinter, and they
> were all, all good sprinters. I recall how these guys made fun of my
> friend Peter Johnson when he built his ultra light sprint bicycle,
> using derailleur chain. It didn't bother them that he won anyway.
>
> Myths don't die easily.

So do you know that broken spokes did in fact catch and stop the wheel?
Or was tie-and-solder always useless? Was there a true and real danger?
Ever?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 02 Jun 2007 03:26:19
From:
Subject: Re: broken spoke

Andrew Muzi writes:

>>> I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in wheel)
>>> and the occasional slapping sound reminds me of "tied/soldered
>>> spokes won't foul on the fork when broken".

>>> Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it will,
>>> I wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes really
>>> are. I can't recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a broken
>>> spoke. Anyone here have experience with that?

>>> (Yes, I'm going to put in a new spoke.)

>> Tying and soldering or better tying with twine and gluing was
>> introduced on high wheelers, where a fat crude spoke failure often
>> caused headers, they being so unstable in the forward direction
>> that they had no useful brake, one that would send the rider on his
>> face more often than the spoon dragger that they used to little
>> effect.

>> It was with the advent of the "safety" bicycle that wheel builders
>> didn't want to give up a new service that had been introduced
>> shortly before there were no more high wheelers, so they attributed
>> all sorts of wheel strength to the procedure, after losing its real
>> purpose. That fable lasted until publication of "the Bicycle
>> Wheel" where the benefits were measured and found not to exist.

>> Tying and soldering spokes, and hard glue for track tires were two
>> myths that were accepted in bicycling without question. It took me
>> a while to find the answers to these. Of course, block chain was
>> another of these. Track riders were sure that only a non roller
>> chain was strong enough to withstand the force of a good sprinter,
>> and they were all, all good sprinters. I recall how these guys
>> made fun of my friend Peter Johnson when he built his ultra light
>> sprint bicycle, using derailleur chain. It didn't bother them that
>> he won anyway.

>> Myths don't die easily.

> So do you know that broken spokes did in fact catch and stop the
> wheel? Or was tie-and-solder always useless? Was there a true and
> real danger? Ever?

According to the book I read on that matter, it was his intent to make
high wheelers safer by not having a 24" long 3mm diameter spoke
flailing about. That this would cause an endo, is apparent to me. In
any case, wire and solder for this was introduced later and probably
came with the safety bicycle, where there had to be some reason to
continue the method. Using wire and solder makes the strength concept
more believable. At least it held up for more than 100 years.

And you may wonder why I am a skeptic when I read about advances in
bicycle technology.

Not long ago, here on RBT, defenders of the wheel strengthening
concept abounded. These folks have retired their bicycles now and
besides, 16-spoke wheels don't support the extra strength notion well
anyway. Now its cracking rims because the spokes are too tight. Long
live spoke prep!

What's next?

Jobst Brandt