canted wheels on a trailer?

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Date: 21 Aug 2007 23:45:28
From: Gary Young
Subject: canted wheels on a trailer?

I'm building my own trailer, of a design similar to this one:

http://drumbent.com/trailer.html

I've noticed that some commercial trailers (and racing wheelchairs) have
the wheels canted toward each other at the top. It's said to improve
handling, but I don't understand why. Can someone explain the thinking and
whether it's a good idea for a cargo trailer?

Date: 02 Sep 2007 06:37:09
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

meb wrote:
>
> Chalo Wrote:
>
> > meb wrote:
>
> > > The tradeoff for the above is increased rolling resistance due the
> > > camber steer of the right tire attempting to turn left and the left
> > > tire attempting to turn right. The thinner the tire and larger the
> > > diameter, the milder the penalties.
>
> > I thought that this was addressed by means of corresponding toe-out.
>
> Partially. There still is an intrawheel rolling resistance caused by
> smallest diameter portion of the wheel contacting the road fighting the
> largest diameter portion of the wheel contacting the wheel attempting to
> turn different radii.

How different could this be from the left edge of the contact patch of
a plumb tire fighting the right edge, and both of them fighting the
center of the tread? There must always be some scrub; it's intrinsic
to an elliptically convex tire tread conforming to a flat surface as
it rolls.

Chalo

Date: 02 Sep 2007 17:33:15
From: meb
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

Chalo Wrote:
> meb wrote:
> >
> > Chalo Wrote:
> >
> > > meb wrote:
> >
> > > > The tradeoff for the above is increased rolling resistance du
> the
> > > > camber steer of the right tire attempting to turn left and th
> left
> > > > tire attempting to turn right. The thinner the tire and large
> the
> > > > diameter, the milder the penalties.
> >
> > > I thought that this was addressed by means of correspondin
> toe-out.
> >
> > Partially. There still is an intrawheel rolling resistance cause
> by
> > smallest diameter portion of the wheel contacting the road fightin
> the
> > largest diameter portion of the wheel contacting the wheel attemptin
> to
> > turn different radii.
>
> How different could this be from the left edge of the contact patch of
> a plumb tire fighting the right edge, and both of them fighting the
> center of the tread? There must always be some scrub; it's intrinsic
> to an elliptically convex tire tread conforming to a flat surface as
> it rolls.
>
> Chalo

The contact points are different radii in the canted wheel. In th
uncanted wheel this centerline has the bulk of the weight so the edge
of the contact patch give way. There are some bike tires that attemp
overcome this with a flat contact profile as with car tires. There ar
some new recumbent trike tires using such a profile as a non-leanin
trike does not benefit from a bicycle's curved tire profile.

Contrast that canted trailer wheel is continuously leaning, no
intermittent as in a bike leaning in a turn-the extra rollin
resistance is allways there

--
meb

Date: 29 Aug 2007 16:44:14
From: Gary Young
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 14:46:53 -0400, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

> On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 08:20:11 +1000, meb
> <meb.2vw76o@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>M-gineering Wrote:
>>> Gary Young wrote:
>>> > I'm building my own trailer, of a design similar to this one:
>>> >
>>> > http://drumbent.com/trailer.html
>>> >
>>> > I've noticed that some commercial trailers (and racing wheelchairs)
>>> have
>>> > the wheels canted toward each other at the top. It's said to improve
>>> > handling, but I don't understand why. Can someone explain the
>>> thinking and
>>> > whether it's a good idea for a cargo trailer?
>>>
>>> reduces width for equal track, reduces sideload on wheel during
>>> cornering, increases tyre traction during cornering
>>>
>>> --
>>> /Marten
>>>
>>> info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl
>>
>>
>>The tradeoff for the above is increased rolling resistance due the
>>camber steer of the right tire attempting to turn left and the left
>>tire attempting to turn right. The thinner the tire and larger the
>>diameter, the milder the penalties.
> And this can be totally corrected for by adjusting toe.
>

Is there any formula (or rule of thumb) for determining the proper camber
and toe-out? I'll be using 700C front wheels set a little over two feet
apart.

Date: 31 Aug 2007 09:59:04
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

In article
<vZidnTLkQfszdUjbnZ2dnUVZ_vLinZ2d@giganews.com >,
Gary Young <garyyoung3@gmail.com > wrote:

> On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 14:46:53 -0400, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 08:20:11 +1000, meb
> > <meb.2vw76o@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>M-gineering Wrote:
> >>> Gary Young wrote:
> >>> > I'm building my own trailer, of a design similar to this one:
> >>> >
> >>> > http://drumbent.com/trailer.html
> >>> >
> >>> > I've noticed that some commercial trailers (and racing wheelchairs)
> >>> have
> >>> > the wheels canted toward each other at the top. It's said to improve
> >>> > handling, but I don't understand why. Can someone explain the
> >>> thinking and
> >>> > whether it's a good idea for a cargo trailer?
> >>>
> >>> reduces width for equal track, reduces sideload on wheel during
> >>> cornering, increases tyre traction during cornering
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> /Marten
> >>>
> >>> info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl
> >>
> >>
> >>The tradeoff for the above is increased rolling resistance due the
> >>camber steer of the right tire attempting to turn left and the left
> >>tire attempting to turn right. The thinner the tire and larger the
> >>diameter, the milder the penalties.
> > And this can be totally corrected for by adjusting toe.
> >
>
> Is there any formula (or rule of thumb) for determining the proper camber
> and toe-out? I'll be using 700C front wheels set a little over two feet
> apart.

I do not think toeing the wheel will compensate for a
cambered wheel. There will be tire scrub.

r = wheel radius
c = angle of camber
t = angle of toe.
s = distance the wheel wants to track without scrub.
R_c = the radius of curvature of the track of the cambered wheel.

The wheel axis strikes the ground at distance R_c = r/sin(c)
from the contact patch.
Draw the triangle. This is elementary trigonometry.

Following is a cheesy analysis. Actual research is called for.
I am interested in a full answer. Non-holonomic constraints
are `interesting.'

A cambered wheel wants to track a circle
tangent to the straight ahead line.
A toed wheel wants to track a straight line
deviating from the forward line by angle t.
The amount of scrub of a toed wheel is first order in ds.
The amount of scrub of a cambered wheel is second order in ds.

A second order effect cannot compensate for a first order effect.
There will necessarily be scrub.

--
Michael Press

Date: 30 Aug 2007 15:59:25
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

Date: 27 Aug 2007 00:59:09
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

true but what's the golden hammer toe adjustment mechanism for home
brew bike trailers?
one wheel rearward seems easier, effective, and more reliable.

Date: 25 Aug 2007 22:40:43
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

own a vehicle? if the toe and or camber is adjusted to postive or
negative with tape and chalk-you'll get a feel for the effects!

if the wheels are leaned in at the top on a solid non-turning axle,
the leaning provides a simple solution to different travel lengths and
speed travel rates for the different radii of inside and outside
wheel.
the outside contact surface grips while the inside pivots on less
contact surface than the outside. Knot as effective as one wheel at
the rear or more complex and expensive suspensions.
make a model with a straw and two donuts.

Date: 25 Aug 2007 22:28:57
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

meb wrote:
>
> M-gineering Wrote:
> >
> > reduces width for equal track, reduces sideload on wheel during
> > cornering, increases tyre traction during cornering
>
> The tradeoff for the above is increased rolling resistance due the
> camber steer of the right tire attempting to turn left and the left
> tire attempting to turn right. The thinner the tire and larger the
> diameter, the milder the penalties.

I thought that this was addressed by means of corresponding toe-out.

Chalo

Date: 02 Sep 2007 15:08:07
From: meb
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

Chalo Wrote:
> meb wrote:
> >
> > M-gineering Wrote:
> > >
> > > reduces width for equal track, reduces sideload on wheel during
> > > cornering, increases tyre traction during cornering
> >
> > The tradeoff for the above is increased rolling resistance due the
> > camber steer of the right tire attempting to turn left and the left
> > tire attempting to turn right. The thinner the tire and larger the
> > diameter, the milder the penalties.
>
> I thought that this was addressed by means of corresponding toe-out.
>
> Chalo

Partially. There still is an intrawheel rolling resistance caused by
smallest diameter portion of the wheel contacting the road fighting the
largest diameter portion of the wheel contacting the wheel attempting to
turn different radii.

--
meb

Date: 02 Sep 2007 18:23:41
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

In article
<meb.2w9osb@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com >,
meb <meb.2w9osb@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com >
wrote:

> Chalo Wrote:
> > meb wrote:
> > >
> > > M-gineering Wrote:
> > > >
> > > > reduces width for equal track, reduces sideload on wheel during
> > > > cornering, increases tyre traction during cornering
> > >
> > > The tradeoff for the above is increased rolling resistance due the
> > > camber steer of the right tire attempting to turn left and the left
> > > tire attempting to turn right. The thinner the tire and larger the
> > > diameter, the milder the penalties.
> >
> > I thought that this was addressed by means of corresponding toe-out.
> >
> > Chalo
>
> Partially. There still is an intrawheel rolling resistance caused by
> smallest diameter portion of the wheel contacting the road fighting the
> largest diameter portion of the wheel contacting the wheel attempting to
> turn different radii.

Camber wants to make the wheel track a circle.
Toeing makes the wheel want to track a straight
line deviating from the straight ahead track.
The two effects cannot be made to cancel one another.

--
Michael Press

Date: 03 Sep 2007 09:04:13
From: meb
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

Michael Press Wrote:
> In article
> <meb.2w9osb@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com>,
> meb <meb.2w9osb@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Chalo Wrote:
> > > meb wrote:
> > > >
> > > > M-gineering Wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > reduces width for equal track, reduces sideload on whee
> during
> > > > > cornering, increases tyre traction during cornering
> > > >
> > > > The tradeoff for the above is increased rolling resistance du
> the
> > > > camber steer of the right tire attempting to turn left and th
> left
> > > > tire attempting to turn right. The thinner the tire and large
> the
> > > > diameter, the milder the penalties.
> > >
> > > I thought that this was addressed by means of correspondin
> toe-out.
> > >
> > > Chalo
> >
> > Partially. There still is an intrawheel rolling resistance cause
> by
> > smallest diameter portion of the wheel contacting the road fightin
> the
> > largest diameter portion of the wheel contacting the wheel attemptin
> to
> > turn different radii.
>
> Camber wants to make the wheel track a circle.
> Toeing makes the wheel want to track a straight
> line deviating from the straight ahead track.
> The two effects cannot be made to cancel one another.
>
> --
> Michael Press

Exactly-they can be partially offset by getting the tangent t
coincide, but not completely

--
meb

Date: 02 Sep 2007 13:29:20
From:
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

On Sun, 2 Sep 2007 15:08:07 +1000, meb
<meb.2w9osb@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com > wrote:

>
>Chalo Wrote:
>> meb wrote:
>> >
>> > M-gineering Wrote:
>> > >
>> > > reduces width for equal track, reduces sideload on wheel during
>> > > cornering, increases tyre traction during cornering
>> >
>> > The tradeoff for the above is increased rolling resistance due the
>> > camber steer of the right tire attempting to turn left and the left
>> > tire attempting to turn right. The thinner the tire and larger the
>> > diameter, the milder the penalties.
>>
>> I thought that this was addressed by means of corresponding toe-out.
>>
>> Chalo
>
>Partially. There still is an intrawheel rolling resistance caused by
>smallest diameter portion of the wheel contacting the road fighting the
>largest diameter portion of the wheel contacting the wheel attempting to
>turn different radii.
Only an issue really on square treaded tires - and in automotive use
even that is not an issue. many cars with 3 degree negative camber and
1/8" toe-in and no tire wear.(on 8" wide treads)

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 03 Sep 2007 09:02:55
From: meb
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

clare at snyder.on.ca Wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Sep 2007 15:08:07 +1000, meb
> <meb.2w9osb@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Chalo Wrote:
> >> meb wrote:
> >> >
> >> > M-gineering Wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > reduces width for equal track, reduces sideload on wheel during
> >> > > cornering, increases tyre traction during cornering
> >> >
> >> > The tradeoff for the above is increased rolling resistance du
> the
> >> > camber steer of the right tire attempting to turn left and th
> left
> >> > tire attempting to turn right. The thinner the tire and large
> the
> >> > diameter, the milder the penalties.
> >>
> >> I thought that this was addressed by means of correspondin
> toe-out.
> >>
> >> Chalo
> >
> >Partially. There still is an intrawheel rolling resistance caused by
> >smallest diameter portion of the wheel contacting the road fightin
> the
> >largest diameter portion of the wheel contacting the wheel attemptin
> to
> >turn different radii.
> Only an issue really on square treaded tires - and in automotive use
> even that is not an issue. many cars with 3 degree negative camber and
> 1/8" toe-in and no tire wear.(on 8" wide treads)
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

squared tires would reduce the problem as the tire side doesn't come i
contact with the road to create the camber turning rolling resistanc
till a large angle has been reached

--
meb

Date: 23 Aug 2007 20:48:07
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

On Aug 23, 1:05 pm, m...@drumbent.com wrote:
> On Aug 22, 3:35 pm, doug.lan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> (snip)
>
> > > Gary, if you'd like, please send me photos of your trailer when it's
> > > completed so I can add them to my gallery.
>
> > > Cheers,
> > > Mark
>
> > Where can the gallery be viewed?
>
> Now that's a good question! I'm working on that...
>
> The trailer pics that have been sent in so far have been documented
> randomly on my blog, so here are the first two:
>
> http://drumbent.blogspot.com/2007/03/fan-mail.html
>
> http://drumbent.blogspot.com/2007/05/fan-mail-2.html
>
> I've since received two more, and just haven't yet put them up.
>
> After a few years of receiving inquiries about the trailer's design I
> revamped its webpage with more info. And while that change happened a
> few years ago it's just this year that the emails started arriving
> with photos and stories of completed projects or works-in-progress. I
> hope to revamp the trailer's page to show them all, because since I
> started blogging a a little over a year ago I've let my website go
> static (though I have put the blog links on the trailer's page).
>
> I'm still waiting to see if anyone builds their own cargo trike based
> on mine! ;)
>
> Mark

ONE WHEEL set back from the load center?

Date: 23 Aug 2007 10:05:15
From:
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

On Aug 22, 3:35 pm, doug.lan...@gmail.com wrote:

(snip)

> > Gary, if you'd like, please send me photos of your trailer when it's
> > completed so I can add them to my gallery.
>
> > Cheers,
> > Mark
>
> Where can the gallery be viewed?

Now that's a good question! I'm working on that...

The trailer pics that have been sent in so far have been documented
randomly on my blog, so here are the first two:

http://drumbent.blogspot.com/2007/03/fan-mail.html

http://drumbent.blogspot.com/2007/05/fan-mail-2.html

I've since received two more, and just haven't yet put them up.

After a few years of receiving inquiries about the trailer's design I
revamped its webpage with more info. And while that change happened a
few years ago it's just this year that the emails started arriving
with photos and stories of completed projects or works-in-progress. I
hope to revamp the trailer's page to show them all, because since I
started blogging a a little over a year ago I've let my website go
static (though I have put the blog links on the trailer's page).

I'm still waiting to see if anyone builds their own cargo trike based
on mine! ;)

Mark

Date: 23 Aug 2007 13:59:56
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

what happens when one wheel on the solid axle has less grip than the
other side?

Date: 23 Aug 2007 05:32:04
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

primary effect is centering forward movement

Date: 23 Aug 2007 00:40:05
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
> primary effect is centering forward movement
>
Would that not be due to toe in, not camber?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 23 Aug 2007 00:13:28
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:

> Would that not be due to toe in, not camber?

Camber toe? Family newsgr----

Bill "eh, it's late" S.

Date: 22 Aug 2007 19:35:18
From:
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

On Aug 22, 11:59 am, m...@drumbent.com wrote:
> On Aug 22, 6:57 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
>
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Aug 22, 7:48 am, M-gineering <ikmotgeens...@m-gineering.nl> wrote:
>
> > > Gary Young wrote:
> > > > I'm building my own trailer, of a design similar to this one:
>
> > > >http://drumbent.com/trailer.html
>
> > > > I've noticed that some commercial trailers (and racing wheelchairs) have
> > > > the wheels canted toward each other at the top. It's said to improve
> > > > handling, but I don't understand why. Can someone explain the thinking and
> > > > whether it's a good idea for a cargo trailer?
>
> > > reduces width for equal track, reduces sideload on wheel during
> > > cornering, increases tyre traction during cornering
>
> > I think for wheelchairs at least partially it is also for arm
> > clearance.
>
> > Joseph
>
> The main thing for me is that if the trailer gets tilted somehow the
> "downhill" wheel is closer to standing straight, not leaning over
> trying to pull the trailer with it.
>
> Gary, if you'd like, please send me photos of your trailer when it's
> completed so I can add them to my gallery.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark

Where can the gallery be viewed?

Date: 22 Aug 2007 11:59:03
From:
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

On Aug 22, 6:57 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Aug 22, 7:48 am, M-gineering <ikmotgeens...@m-gineering.nl> wrote:
>
> > Gary Young wrote:
> > > I'm building my own trailer, of a design similar to this one:
>
> > >http://drumbent.com/trailer.html
>
> > > I've noticed that some commercial trailers (and racing wheelchairs) have
> > > the wheels canted toward each other at the top. It's said to improve
> > > handling, but I don't understand why. Can someone explain the thinking and
> > > whether it's a good idea for a cargo trailer?
>
> > reduces width for equal track, reduces sideload on wheel during
> > cornering, increases tyre traction during cornering
>
> I think for wheelchairs at least partially it is also for arm
> clearance.
>
> Joseph

The main thing for me is that if the trailer gets tilted somehow the
"downhill" wheel is closer to standing straight, not leaning over
trying to pull the trailer with it.

Gary, if you'd like, please send me photos of your trailer when it's
completed so I can add them to my gallery.

Cheers,
Mark

Date: 22 Aug 2007 10:57:21
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

On Aug 22, 7:48 am, M-gineering <ikmotgeens...@m-gineering.nl > wrote:
> Gary Young wrote:
> > I'm building my own trailer, of a design similar to this one:
>
> >http://drumbent.com/trailer.html
>
> > I've noticed that some commercial trailers (and racing wheelchairs) have
> > the wheels canted toward each other at the top. It's said to improve
> > handling, but I don't understand why. Can someone explain the thinking and
> > whether it's a good idea for a cargo trailer?
>
> reduces width for equal track, reduces sideload on wheel during
> cornering, increases tyre traction during cornering
>

I think for wheelchairs at least partially it is also for arm
clearance.

Joseph

Date: 22 Aug 2007 07:48:30
From: M-gineering
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

Gary Young wrote:
> I'm building my own trailer, of a design similar to this one:
>
> http://drumbent.com/trailer.html
>
> I've noticed that some commercial trailers (and racing wheelchairs) have
> the wheels canted toward each other at the top. It's said to improve
> handling, but I don't understand why. Can someone explain the thinking and
> whether it's a good idea for a cargo trailer?

reduces width for equal track, reduces sideload on wheel during
cornering, increases tyre traction during cornering

--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

Date: 26 Aug 2007 08:20:11
From: meb
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

M-gineering Wrote:
> Gary Young wrote:
> > I'm building my own trailer, of a design similar to this one:
> >
> > http://drumbent.com/trailer.html
> >
> > I've noticed that some commercial trailers (and racing wheelchairs
> have
> > the wheels canted toward each other at the top. It's said to improve
> > handling, but I don't understand why. Can someone explain th
> thinking and
> > whether it's a good idea for a cargo trailer?
>
> reduces width for equal track, reduces sideload on wheel during
> cornering, increases tyre traction during cornering
>
> --
> /Marten
>
> info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

The tradeoff for the above is increased rolling resistance due th
camber steer of the right tire attempting to turn left and the lef
tire attempting to turn right. The thinner the tire and larger th
diameter, the milder the penalties

--
meb

Date: 26 Aug 2007 14:46:53
From:
Subject: Re: canted wheels on a trailer?

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 08:20:11 +1000, meb
<meb.2vw76o@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com > wrote:

>
>M-gineering Wrote:
>> Gary Young wrote:
>> > I'm building my own trailer, of a design similar to this one:
>> >
>> > http://drumbent.com/trailer.html
>> >
>> > I've noticed that some commercial trailers (and racing wheelchairs)
>> have
>> > the wheels canted toward each other at the top. It's said to improve
>> > handling, but I don't understand why. Can someone explain the
>> thinking and
>> > whether it's a good idea for a cargo trailer?
>>
>> reduces width for equal track, reduces sideload on wheel during
>> cornering, increases tyre traction during cornering
>>
>> --
>> /Marten
>>
>> info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl
>
>
>The tradeoff for the above is increased rolling resistance due the
>camber steer of the right tire attempting to turn left and the left
>tire attempting to turn right. The thinner the tire and larger the
>diameter, the milder the penalties.
And this can be totally corrected for by adjusting toe.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com