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Main
Date: 09 May 2007 23:31:06
From: Bleve
Subject: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
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Here's what happens to the current Powertap SL 2.4 (RRP in Australia
of ~$2,700) hub after 1,500km of normal use with a 10sp Shimano
cassette (Ultegra).
http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/
The photoset also has a comparison with a Dura-Ace Al alloy freehub
(the silver one that fits properly ...).
The Saris/Cyclops freehub is a bronze colour, and is clearly quite
badly damaged.
This is the same damage that occurs with any Al alloy freehub body
that's not designed to mate properly with Shimano 10sp. Bontrager
freehubs have the same problem, as do Easton/Velomax and I'm sure many
others.
Interestingly, American Classic realised the problem quite a while ago
and released some radial shims to fir their freehub bodies to reduce/
eliminate the problem.
The hub's being sent back to Saris with a 'please explain' (as well as
problems with intermittent data loss ... but that's another story!),
but I'm wondering, does anyone here recognise the freehub body from
some other hub manufacturer, and knows if a steel (or a properly
designed Al alloy ...) freehub could be swapped in? It has KHK stamped
on it. If Saris/Cyclops won't redesign the part, I'd like to fit a
steel freehub body so I can easily swap cassettes without needing two
chainwhips and a chisel.
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Date: 13 May 2007 22:48:16
From: Bleve
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
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On May 14, 2:32 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
> Which I would go along with except...
>
> ... to the best of my knowledge, nobody has come up with an incidence of
> failure.
>
> There seems to be a redefinition going on of failure. It's no longer
> required that something actually fail in use. Rather, an appearance that it
> *might* fail is all that's required. The irony is that this thread has
> caused me to re-think what's gone on with my own hub, which actually looks
> worse than the one referenced by the original poster. But all this talk
> about potential failure without anyone claiming actual failure has convinced
> me I don't need to be concerned. However, I still forwarded my own photos to
> the manufacturer (Bontrager, in this case) since, if there's an easy way to
> avoid the cogs biting into the mechanism, it would make it a bit easier to
> remove them. And be less scary-looking too.
Mike,
There *is* an easy way to avoid it. Two, actually ... use steel for
the freehub, or copy the Dura-Ace 10sp freehub splines. Not only is
it an easy fix, but it's an easy one to test and by now, it's an old
problem, 10sp has been around for some time now.
It is a failure of the design of the part such that it does not behave
as a freehub body should. Not that it's going to break and cause
injury (phew .. no need to worry about expensive legal action ...),
but it is not correct behaviour of the part. Cassettes should slide
off freehubs, rather than requiring multiple chainwhips and hammers
after a small amount of use. The design is flawed. It needs to be
fixed. The evidence of same is overwhelming. You yourself have been
in touch with Trek/Bontrager, as have I with them and Saris, they
*know* it's wrong. The fix is *easy*. Too much time in sales &
marketing must really rot human brains, I think.
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Date: 11 May 2007 14:01:45
From: russellseaton1@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
On May 11, 11:35 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
> > Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> >>>http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/DSCF3807.html
> >>> happens all the time with "boutique" shimano-copy hubs. shimano know
> >>> this - that's why their free hub bodies are either steel, ti, or deep
> >>> spline aluminum. embarrassingly basic error if you ask me.
>
> >>> stick to shimano or mavic or someone that knows how to make a proper
> >>> [steel or ti or deep spline aluminum] freehub body.
>
> >> Or don't and suffer the consequences... er, except that you won't. Truth
> >> is, it's virtually unknown to have someone actually have their cassette
> >> cogs spin on the mechanism because they've dug in as shown in the photos
> >> (and, by the way, my own cassette body looks a lot worse than what's
> >> shown in the photos).
>
> > sorry mike, but when i pay serious bucks for a boutique hub, i want the
> > thing to work. without being damaged through some moron's non-engineering
> > oversight. it's not like this is hard to get right.
>
> This reminds me of threads about how seriously-deficient Octalink & Isis
> splines are. Lots of talk about how bad a design, but no evidence of greater
> failure than something "better."
>
> Yes, it would be convenient if you didn't have to rotate cogs backward to
> extract them because they dug into the hub. But I don't see it as impeding
> the function of the bike, or in fact as anything more than a minor
> annoyance.
>
> I would much rather see people spend less time worrying about cassette
> splines and crank arm attchments and more time on coming up with a chain
> that doesn't require lubrication (and yet is efficient, quiet &
> lightweight). Oh, and while we're at it, how about tires that are supple,
> low rolling resistance, long life and have greater puncture resistance.
> Improvements in those areas would make for, in my opinion, huge leaps in
> participation and enjoyment of cycling.
Huh? Chain lubrication is a big deal in the Bay area? Causing people
to not ride their bikes and not enjoy it? And people in the Bay area
won't ride their bikes or hate it when they do if they have to choose
between light racy tires that will flat, or heavy durable tires that
won't? Do people in the Bay area quit bicycling because they have
flat tires?
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
> "jim beam" <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>
> news:Ro6dnROszKnz89nbnZ2dnUVZ_uninZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
>
>
> > Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> >>>http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/DSCF3807.html
> >>> happens all the time with "boutique" shimano-copy hubs. shimano know
> >>> this - that's why their free hub bodies are either steel, ti, or deep
> >>> spline aluminum. embarrassingly basic error if you ask me.
>
> >>> stick to shimano or mavic or someone that knows how to make a proper
> >>> [steel or ti or deep spline aluminum] freehub body.
>
> >> Or don't and suffer the consequences... er, except that you won't. Truth
> >> is, it's virtually unknown to have someone actually have their cassette
> >> cogs spin on the mechanism because they've dug in as shown in the photos
> >> (and, by the way, my own cassette body looks a lot worse than what's
> >> shown in the photos).
>
> > sorry mike, but when i pay serious bucks for a boutique hub, i want the
> > thing to work. without being damaged through some moron's non-engineering
> > oversight. it's not like this is hard to get right.
>
> >> The only real downside, apart from creating a whole lot of fear,
> >> uncertainty & doubt, is that it makes it more difficult to remove the
> >> cogs from the cassette mechanism, since they've rotated beyond their
> >> grooves a bit. Easiest way to deal with it is to use a chain whip and
> >> simply rotate them back in the other direction a bit. I don't want to
> >> admit how long it was before I thought about doing something so simple &
> >> obvious...
>
> >> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> >>www.ChainReactionBicycles.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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Date: 11 May 2007 21:24:34
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
>> I would much rather see people spend less time worrying about cassette
>> splines and crank arm attchments and more time on coming up with a chain
>> that doesn't require lubrication (and yet is efficient, quiet &
>> lightweight). Oh, and while we're at it, how about tires that are supple,
>> low rolling resistance, long life and have greater puncture resistance.
>> Improvements in those areas would make for, in my opinion, huge leaps in
>> participation and enjoyment of cycling.
>
>
> Huh? Chain lubrication is a big deal in the Bay area? Causing people
> to not ride their bikes and not enjoy it? And people in the Bay area
> won't ride their bikes or hate it when they do if they have to choose
> between light racy tires that will flat, or heavy durable tires that
> won't? Do people in the Bay area quit bicycling because they have
> flat tires?
Hard to believe, but there are still a few (very few) shops around that just
don't get it, and think that reduction in flats would be a bad thing because
it would cut down on their repair profits. Terribly short sighted; if people
didn't have to worry about flat tires, there'd be a lot more people riding.
--Mike--
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
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Date: 11 May 2007 15:24:47
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
Mike Jacoubowsky <MikeJ@chainreaction.com > wrote:
>
> Hard to believe, but there are still a few (very few) shops around that just
> don't get it, and think that reduction in flats would be a bad thing because
> it would cut down on their repair profits. Terribly short sighted; if people
> didn't have to worry about flat tires, there'd be a lot more people riding.
I've seduced about half the commuters at my work to the dark side already.
Schwalbe Marathon Plus
One flat so far: A rear flat to my tire from a 2" nail.
--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
"sic transit discus mundi"
(From the System Administrator's Guide, by Lars Wirzenius)
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Date: 11 May 2007 19:11:00
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
On Fri, 11 May 2007 15:24:47 -0700, Dane Buson <dane@unseen.edu >
wrote:
>I've seduced about half the commuters at my work to the dark side already.
>
>Schwalbe Marathon Plus
>
>One flat so far: A rear flat to my tire from a 2" nail.
I'm scared of difficulty getting that tire on and off.
I must also say, with Mr. Tuffies I get almost no flats. Perhaps one
every year or so and it's usually from something big and knarly.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 11 May 2007 16:31:58
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
> On Fri, 11 May 2007 15:24:47 -0700, Dane Buson <dane@unseen.edu>
> wrote:
>
>>I've seduced about half the commuters at my work to the dark side already.
>>
>>Schwalbe Marathon Plus
>>
>>One flat so far: A rear flat to my tire from a 2" nail.
>
> I'm scared of difficulty getting that tire on and off.
Getting it on the first time was rather difficult. Getting it off and
on the second time was not too bad. I haven't done enough mileage to
need to swap on new tires yet.
They are showing signs of wear, but I haven't needed to replace them
yet. I put the front on October of 2005. The rear has seen less miles
because I swapped another wheel on when I needed to swap in a new rim.
I put about 6000 miles a year on this bike.
> I must also say, with Mr. Tuffies I get almost no flats. Perhaps one
> every year or so and it's usually from something big and knarly.
I've never tried them.
--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
When I woke up this morning, my girlfriend asked if I had slept well.
I said, "No, I made a few mistakes."
-- Steven Wright
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Date: 11 May 2007 16:54:15
From:
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
On Fri, 11 May 2007 15:24:47 -0700, Dane Buson <dane@unseen.edu >
wrote:
>Mike Jacoubowsky <MikeJ@chainreaction.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hard to believe, but there are still a few (very few) shops around that just
>> don't get it, and think that reduction in flats would be a bad thing because
>> it would cut down on their repair profits. Terribly short sighted; if people
>> didn't have to worry about flat tires, there'd be a lot more people riding.
>
>I've seduced about half the commuters at my work to the dark side already.
>
>Schwalbe Marathon Plus
>
>One flat so far: A rear flat to my tire from a 2" nail.
Dear Dane,
Bah! Only steel is real!
(For tires, not frames.)
Let's see a new-fangled tire match these armor-plated beauties:
"The oft-prophesied puncture-proof tire is still the subject of much
experiment in the endeavor to discover a fabric which cannot be
penetrated by an ordinary sharp instrument without the loss of
resiliency in its manufacture. The Chicago Puncture-Proof Tire Company
exhibited at the Western show tires fitted with armor consisting
of pieces of steel 21/4 inches wide by .005 of an inch thick, made
under great pressure and very elastic. . . ."
"The Dean tire [see diagram] is one of the novelties of 1897, having a
series of scales laid in the fabric, overlapping each other, and
riveted together in such a manner as to allow them to move slightly
when the wheel is in motion. These scales are six thousandths of an
inch thick, about three fourths of an inch wide, and while adding
about seven ounces to the weight of the tire, maintain a resilient
tread, nearly if not quite puncture-proof."
Even super-Slime was available in the form of Vimoid in 1897:
" . . . the Vim tire is typical, and Vimoid, a special preparation
of the Boston Woven Hose and Rubber Company, being forced into a
puncture, cut or gash, quickly hardens, assuming the character
of rubber, and effecting a permanent repair."
Slightly off-topic, but no dust-proof water-tight modern cyclocomputer
comes in thirty handsome models or can match the performance of the
lightweight 1897 model:
"The 'Veeder' cyclometer enjoys the distinction of being the lightest
manufactured. It is at the same time dust-proof, water-tight, and made
to register from one to ten thousand miles. It was shown in thirty
different styles of finish at the recent bicycle shows, with one
attached to an electric motor, run at the rate of a mile in from three
seconds to a second and a half."
Let's see a modern digital cyclocomputer register mileage accurately
at 1,200 to 2,400 mph!
"Outing" magazine, 1897
http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/Outing/Volume_30/outXXX01/outXXX01w.pdf
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
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Date: 11 May 2007 08:13:33
From: russellseaton1@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
On May 10, 5:27 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> Are there some cassettes where all the cogs are bolted together that
> the OP can use? I believe SRAM cassettes are like this.
> That would distribute the pressure over a larger area.
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************
With Campagnolo cassettes, on Record and Chorus cassettes starting
with 12 or 13 cogs, the biggest 6 cogs are paired on aluminum
carriers. So you get 4 individual cogs and 3 pairs of cogs to make up
your 10 cog cassette. For 11 tooth starting cassettes with Record and
Chorus the biggest 4 cogs are paired and the smallest 6 cogs are
individual. So you get 6 individual cogs and two pairs of cogs.
With Centaur the biggest two cogs are paired and the smallest 8 are
individual cogs for all cassettes starting with 11, 12, or 13 tooth.
IRD puts the four largest cogs on a carrier and the six smallest are
loose cogs on their Elite model. All loose cogs on their Comp model.
In the application here, I doubt any of these cassettes would fix the
problem since the pictures show the damage to the freehub body
occurring where the small cogs sit. And no one puts the smallest cogs
onto carriers to spread the load.
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Date: 11 May 2007 18:06:01
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
On 11 May 2007 08:13:33 -0700, "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<russellseaton1@yahoo.com > wrote:
>I doubt any of these cassettes would fix the
>problem since the pictures show the damage to the freehub body
>occurring where the small cogs sit. And no one puts the smallest cogs
>onto carriers to spread the load.
Not SRAM?
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 11 May 2007 01:59:01
From: Bleve
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
On May 11, 4:59 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
> >http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/DSCF3807.html
> > happens all the time with "boutique" shimano-copy hubs. shimano know
> > this - that's why their free hub bodies are either steel, ti, or deep
> > spline aluminum. embarrassingly basic error if you ask me.
>
> > stick to shimano or mavic or someone that knows how to make a proper
> > [steel or ti or deep spline aluminum] freehub body.
>
> Or don't and suffer the consequences... er, except that you won't. Truth is,
> it's virtually unknown to have someone actually have their cassette cogs
> spin on the mechanism because they've dug in as shown in the photos (and, by
> the way, my own cassette body looks a lot worse than what's shown in the
> photos).
>
> The only real downside, apart from creating a whole lot of fear, uncertainty
> & doubt, is that it makes it more difficult to remove the cogs from the
> cassette mechanism, since they've rotated beyond their grooves a bit.
> Easiest way to deal with it is to use a chain whip and simply rotate them
> back in the other direction a bit. I don't want to admit how long it was
> before I thought about doing something so simple & obvious...
That's what we've done, and sometimes that's been enough force, and
sometimes not, sometimes we needed a hammer to get enough force to
pull them out. Not pretty. They *should* slide right off as soon as
the locking ring is undone. That's how the genuine Shimano stuff
works.
The reason I care, is because I hire the hub out to riders I coach,
and we swap cassettes all the time to do this. If it was just me
using it, it wouldn't be a drama, just a sad reflection of the
laziness/incompetence/stinginess of the hub designers who can't be
bothered making a part that is designed to work properly.
The sad thing is, it's not that hard to do it right. Shimano have,
with their 10sp d-a Al alloy freehub, campy do it right, why can't
Saris, Bontrager, Easton etc? All they have to do is copy the d-a
one, or do something like American Classic did with their radial
shims. These parts *should* work properly, the sprockets should not
dig in to the freehub like this.
If it's too hard to do it in Al alloy, then they should at least give
me the option of a steel freehub, I don't care if it's 15-20 grams
heavier, I want the thing to work properly.
It's in the post now, going back to Trek Aust (the Oz distributor),
we'll see what happens.
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Date: 10 May 2007 20:50:55
From: Bill Westphal
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
Bleve <carl.I.brewer@gmail.com > writes:
> Here's what happens to the current Powertap SL 2.4 (RRP in Australia
> of ~$2,700) hub after 1,500km of normal use with a 10sp Shimano
> cassette (Ultegra).
>
> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/
>
> The photoset also has a comparison with a Dura-Ace Al alloy freehub
> (the silver one that fits properly ...).
> The Saris/Cyclops freehub is a bronze colour, and is clearly quite
> badly damaged.
>
> This is the same damage that occurs with any Al alloy freehub body
> that's not designed to mate properly with Shimano 10sp. Bontrager
> freehubs have the same problem, as do Easton/Velomax and I'm sure many
> others.
>
> Interestingly, American Classic realised the problem quite a while ago
> and released some radial shims to fir their freehub bodies to reduce/
> eliminate the problem.
>
> The hub's being sent back to Saris with a 'please explain' (as well as
> problems with intermittent data loss ... but that's another story!),
> but I'm wondering, does anyone here recognise the freehub body from
> some other hub manufacturer, and knows if a steel (or a properly
> designed Al alloy ...) freehub could be swapped in? It has KHK stamped
> on it. If Saris/Cyclops won't redesign the part, I'd like to fit a
> steel freehub body so I can easily swap cassettes without needing two
> chainwhips and a chisel.
Last year about 12k miles on a now 2 year old Powertap SL Campy
version with Centaur and Chorus 11-23 & 12-25 and I hadn't noticed
problems last time I swapped out the cassette. I just pulled it and
the freehub body looks pretty much like new. I have their shimano
body too that I haven't swapped in yet and they're certainly the same
manufacturer. Same color and texture of metal anyway. Mostly up to
350 watts for 30 minute efforts, and ~250 for ~2 hrs with about
230-240 threshold, but 10 seconds - 30 seconds up close to 1000, but
I'm a weak sprinter, at 48. Nothing close to the 1450 you mention.
Maybe just stop the short sprints with the thing, or if in a race
settle for mid-pack finish. I'll bet the farm that all happened at
1450 watts.
Saris seemed really on the ball replacing the sealed bearings, which
they have to do (and it got a little "crunchy" after a year),
otherwise the strain-guage get's miscalibrated by the user blindly
whacking out the cartridges. They seemed quite a competent support
group, and I'd be VERY curious about the results of your dealing with
them on this, before I throw on the shimano body.
I imagine a lot of their users can put out 1450 watts. You should
join the "wattage" list at google
Here's a sloppy paste of a recent thread that you can't access w/out
membership in the group.
Bill Westphal
. Tom.
View profile
I pulled the cassette off the powertap to put my 12x25 on for some
hill climbing the next couple days. I noticed that the cassette has
"grabbed" the freehub pretty nicely. There are 4 "bite marks" from 4
of the cogs on the other cassette. Anyone else notice whether the
stock freehub on their PT SL was this soft? I'll swap back to the 23
on Monday and check it again. I looked at my other freehubs I've got
around the house and none of them show that significant of bite marks.
I suppose I could pull the other freehubs off and swap them if
necessary. I've got 3 or 4 around the house. I'm a bit paranoid about
damaging this brand new $1000 piece of training equipment. More
options Nov 8 2006, 3:47 am From: Tom . <watt...@topica.com > Date:
Wed, 8 Nov 2006 01:47:00 -0800 Subject: freehub metal softness? PT SL
I suppose I could pull the other freehubs off and swap them if
necessary. I've got 3 or 4 around the house. I'm a bit paranoid about
damaging this brand new $1000 piece of training equipment.
Tom,
I have replaced mine twice already.
I guess $69/yr is the cost of having a PT SL...
Jim
Reply Reply to author Forward Rate this post: Text for clearing
space FreeHub body original part from Saris costs only $50 to $65, is
easy to replace, and its superficial damage doesn't have any
conection/impact over the "sensor/transmitter" unit - axle/hubbody are
"out of the bearings parts". Simply don't mind about it - try to use
good and clean spacers and correct cap tork when installing the
cassete, in order to avoid the "shock" move on the hub small
rotational play, when you push it forward.
Or simply switch to Campy, and never worry about it, like me... :-)
Clythio.
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> FAQ: http://midweekclub.ca/powerFAQ.htm
> Links to other wattage site:
> http://trainwithpower.net
> http://www.schererfamily.com/Joisey_Scherers/Chris/cycling/polar/pola...
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=powerstern
4. Jason
View profile
More options Nov 8 2006, 12:49 pm
From: Jason <j...@comcast.net >
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 10:49:00 -0800
Subject: RE: freehub metal softness? PT SL
you can reduce the damage by preloading the cassette on the freehub
body when you tighten it... twist all the cogs 'forward' as much as
you can when you tighten it.. that will prevent the impact stress the
first time you shift into that gear with the new cassette...
i've had mine .. on the original freehub body.. for about a year and a
half... sure it's chewed up a little..but nowhere near replacement
time.... i think maybe twice i've filed off the little burs that end
up sticking up that make it diffficult to get the cassette off and
on....
i still don't know why shimano can't use all of the teeth/notches on
the new 10sp stuff.... doesn't make sense to me at all
5. Eric Lin
From: "Eric Lin" <Ardillaki...@gmail.com >
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 07:10:05 -0800
Local: Wed, Dec 13 2006 9:10 am
Subject: Re: freehub metal softness? PT SL
Reply to author
|
| |
Date: 10 May 2007 14:40:33
From: Bruce Gilbert
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
"Bleve" <carl.I.brewer@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1178778666.331010.90840@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Here's what happens to the current Powertap SL 2.4 (RRP in Australia
> of ~$2,700) hub after 1,500km of normal use with a 10sp Shimano
> cassette (Ultegra).
>
> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/
>
> The photoset also has a comparison with a Dura-Ace Al alloy freehub
> (the silver one that fits properly ...).
> The Saris/Cyclops freehub is a bronze colour, and is clearly quite
> badly damaged.
>
> This is the same damage that occurs with any Al alloy freehub body
> that's not designed to mate properly with Shimano 10sp. Bontrager
> freehubs have the same problem, as do Easton/Velomax and I'm sure many
> others.
>
> Interestingly, American Classic realised the problem quite a while ago
> and released some radial shims to fir their freehub bodies to reduce/
> eliminate the problem.
>
> The hub's being sent back to Saris with a 'please explain' (as well as
> problems with intermittent data loss ... but that's another story!),
> but I'm wondering, does anyone here recognise the freehub body from
> some other hub manufacturer, and knows if a steel (or a properly
> designed Al alloy ...) freehub could be swapped in? It has KHK stamped
> on it. If Saris/Cyclops won't redesign the part, I'd like to fit a
> steel freehub body so I can easily swap cassettes without needing two
> chainwhips and a chisel.
>
That freehub looks the same at the Velocity hubs use. Of course, there are
probably a dozen other Taiwan hubs that use the same piece. I have seen the
cogs dig into the freehub before. There seems to be 2 factors that played
into that problem. First, separate cogs as opposed to a joined solid unit.
Second, the lockring was not tight enough.
No matter what, there is both a design and metallurgy problem occurring in
these freehubs. We usually keep a few spares around, just for ourselves.
As a side note, there is a real problem with the pawl springs on these
freehubs. They wear out rather quickly. Last weekend, one went on my wife's
Nuvian hub (Velocity). Here is a not so terrific, but effective fix: I
fabricated a new spring by unwinding and reshaping a coiled quick release
spring. I used two pliers to reshape the spring into what was needed. She
just took off for a ride and the freehub appeared to run normally. Let's see
if I catch hell later...
It has to work, we are riding downtown on Sunday to watch the race and then
to a brunch.
Having a freehub failure on Mother's Day is unthinkable ! LoL
In case anyone wants to know, there are two industrial bearings, separated
by a spacer tube inside these freehubs. I had to change them on a similar
unit a little while ago.
These freehub mechanisms are usually loaded with a green grease. I generally
change it out in favor of a light #1, #0 or even a synthetic oil. I believe
Peter has commented on using an oil many times. I definitely feel that is
the correct thing in a Shimano design. But in the Taiwan or Campy units, a
very light grease may stay in place better.
Bruce
|
| |
Date: 10 May 2007 06:55:23
From: russellseaton1@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
On May 10, 1:31 am, Bleve <carl.I.bre...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Here's what happens to the current Powertap SL 2.4 (RRP in Australia
> of ~$2,700) hub after 1,500km of normal use with a 10sp Shimano
> cassette (Ultegra).
>
> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/
>
> The photoset also has a comparison with a Dura-Ace Al alloy freehub
> (the silver one that fits properly ...).
> The Saris/Cyclops freehub is a bronze colour, and is clearly quite
> badly damaged.
>
> This is the same damage that occurs with any Al alloy freehub body
> that's not designed to mate properly with Shimano 10sp. Bontrager
> freehubs have the same problem, as do Easton/Velomax and I'm sure many
> others.
>
> Interestingly, American Classic realised the problem quite a while ago
> and released some radial shims to fir their freehub bodies to reduce/
> eliminate the problem.
>
> The hub's being sent back to Saris with a 'please explain' (as well as
> problems with intermittent data loss ... but that's another story!),
> but I'm wondering, does anyone here recognise the freehub body from
> some other hub manufacturer, and knows if a steel (or a properly
> designed Al alloy ...) freehub could be swapped in? It has KHK stamped
> on it. If Saris/Cyclops won't redesign the part, I'd like to fit a
> steel freehub body so I can easily swap cassettes without needing two
> chainwhips and a chisel.
Only comment is the Dura Ace aluminum hub body you show looks very
similar to my Campagnolo 1999 onwards Record hubs. Deep aluminum
grooves. I only use the Campagnolo loose cog cassettes, Veloce or
Mirage, 9 or 10 speed, and they do not cut into the freehub body
enough to cause any damage.
On the expensive Campagnolo cassettes, the biggest 6 or 7 of 10 cogs
are on aluminum carriers. I think this is how the Dura Ace 10 speed
cassettes might be too. So to minimize the potentail of grooving the
hub body, you could try this.
I was thinking about the PowerTap SL hub for Campagnolo cassettes.
Just dreaming mainly. But with your experiences, I don't think I want
to try one.
|
| | |
Date: 10 May 2007 18:27:55
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
Are there some cassettes where all the cogs are bolted together that
the OP can use? I believe SRAM cassettes are like this.
That would distribute the pressure over a larger area.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| |
Date: 10 May 2007 06:34:38
From: Bleve
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
On May 10, 11:10 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net > wrote:
> Bleve wrote:
> > Here's what happens to the current Powertap SL 2.4 (RRP in Australia
> > of ~$2,700) hub after 1,500km of normal use with a 10sp Shimano
> > cassette (Ultegra).
>
> >http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/
>
> > The photoset also has a comparison with a Dura-Ace Al alloy freehub
> > (the silver one that fits properly ...).
> > The Saris/Cyclops freehub is a bronze colour, and is clearly quite
> > badly damaged.
>
> > This is the same damage that occurs with any Al alloy freehub body
> > that's not designed to mate properly with Shimano 10sp. Bontrager
> > freehubs have the same problem, as do Easton/Velomax and I'm sure many
> > others.
>
> > Interestingly, American Classic realised the problem quite a while ago
> > and released some radial shims to fir their freehub bodies to reduce/
> > eliminate the problem.
>
> > The hub's being sent back to Saris with a 'please explain' (as well as
> > problems with intermittent data loss ... but that's another story!),
> > but I'm wondering, does anyone here recognise the freehub body from
> > some other hub manufacturer, and knows if a steel (or a properly
> > designed Al alloy ...) freehub could be swapped in? It has KHK stamped
> > on it. If Saris/Cyclops won't redesign the part, I'd like to fit a
> > steel freehub body so I can easily swap cassettes without needing two
> > chainwhips and a chisel.
>
> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/DSCF3807.html
> happens all the time with "boutique" shimano-copy hubs. shimano know
> this - that's why their free hub bodies are either steel, ti, or deep
> spline aluminum. embarrassingly basic error if you ask me.
>
> stick to shimano or mavic or someone that knows how to make a proper
> [steel or ti or deep spline aluminum] freehub body.
When Shimano start making power meters. Until then, I need to either
get Saris to do the right thing, or find an alternate freehub that
will work with that hub.
|
| | |
Date: 10 May 2007 20:09:51
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
Bleve wrote:
> On May 10, 11:10 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> Bleve wrote:
>>> Here's what happens to the current Powertap SL 2.4 (RRP in Australia
>>> of ~$2,700) hub after 1,500km of normal use with a 10sp Shimano
>>> cassette (Ultegra).
>>> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/
>>> The photoset also has a comparison with a Dura-Ace Al alloy freehub
>>> (the silver one that fits properly ...).
>>> The Saris/Cyclops freehub is a bronze colour, and is clearly quite
>>> badly damaged.
>>> This is the same damage that occurs with any Al alloy freehub body
>>> that's not designed to mate properly with Shimano 10sp. Bontrager
>>> freehubs have the same problem, as do Easton/Velomax and I'm sure many
>>> others.
>>> Interestingly, American Classic realised the problem quite a while ago
>>> and released some radial shims to fir their freehub bodies to reduce/
>>> eliminate the problem.
>>> The hub's being sent back to Saris with a 'please explain' (as well as
>>> problems with intermittent data loss ... but that's another story!),
>>> but I'm wondering, does anyone here recognise the freehub body from
>>> some other hub manufacturer, and knows if a steel (or a properly
>>> designed Al alloy ...) freehub could be swapped in? It has KHK stamped
>>> on it. If Saris/Cyclops won't redesign the part, I'd like to fit a
>>> steel freehub body so I can easily swap cassettes without needing two
>>> chainwhips and a chisel.
>> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/DSCF3807.html
>> happens all the time with "boutique" shimano-copy hubs. shimano know
>> this - that's why their free hub bodies are either steel, ti, or deep
>> spline aluminum. embarrassingly basic error if you ask me.
>>
>> stick to shimano or mavic or someone that knows how to make a proper
>> [steel or ti or deep spline aluminum] freehub body.
>
> When Shimano start making power meters. Until then, I need to either
> get Saris to do the right thing, or find an alternate freehub that
> will work with that hub.
unfortunate but true. publicity and nagging often have that the desired
effect. clearly their current product quality is unacceptable.
|
| | | |
Date: 10 May 2007 20:13:29
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
jim beam wrote:
> Bleve wrote:
>> On May 10, 11:10 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>> Bleve wrote:
>>>> Here's what happens to the current Powertap SL 2.4 (RRP in Australia
>>>> of ~$2,700) hub after 1,500km of normal use with a 10sp Shimano
>>>> cassette (Ultegra).
>>>> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/
>>>> The photoset also has a comparison with a Dura-Ace Al alloy freehub
>>>> (the silver one that fits properly ...).
>>>> The Saris/Cyclops freehub is a bronze colour, and is clearly quite
>>>> badly damaged.
>>>> This is the same damage that occurs with any Al alloy freehub body
>>>> that's not designed to mate properly with Shimano 10sp. Bontrager
>>>> freehubs have the same problem, as do Easton/Velomax and I'm sure many
>>>> others.
>>>> Interestingly, American Classic realised the problem quite a while ago
>>>> and released some radial shims to fir their freehub bodies to reduce/
>>>> eliminate the problem.
>>>> The hub's being sent back to Saris with a 'please explain' (as well as
>>>> problems with intermittent data loss ... but that's another story!),
>>>> but I'm wondering, does anyone here recognise the freehub body from
>>>> some other hub manufacturer, and knows if a steel (or a properly
>>>> designed Al alloy ...) freehub could be swapped in? It has KHK stamped
>>>> on it. If Saris/Cyclops won't redesign the part, I'd like to fit a
>>>> steel freehub body so I can easily swap cassettes without needing two
>>>> chainwhips and a chisel.
>>> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/DSCF3807.html
>>> happens all the time with "boutique" shimano-copy hubs. shimano know
>>> this - that's why their free hub bodies are either steel, ti, or deep
>>> spline aluminum. embarrassingly basic error if you ask me.
>>>
>>> stick to shimano or mavic or someone that knows how to make a proper
>>> [steel or ti or deep spline aluminum] freehub body.
>>
>> When Shimano start making power meters. Until then, I need to either
>> get Saris to do the right thing, or find an alternate freehub that
>> will work with that hub.
>
> unfortunate but true. publicity and nagging often have that the desired
> effect. clearly their current product quality is unacceptable.
to add to that, you might try the campy cassette/freehub solution.
they're deep spline and campy cassettes/hubs can be used on otherwise
shimano systems very successfully.
|
| |
Date: 10 May 2007 06:10:39
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
Bleve wrote:
> Here's what happens to the current Powertap SL 2.4 (RRP in Australia
> of ~$2,700) hub after 1,500km of normal use with a 10sp Shimano
> cassette (Ultegra).
>
> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/
>
> The photoset also has a comparison with a Dura-Ace Al alloy freehub
> (the silver one that fits properly ...).
> The Saris/Cyclops freehub is a bronze colour, and is clearly quite
> badly damaged.
>
> This is the same damage that occurs with any Al alloy freehub body
> that's not designed to mate properly with Shimano 10sp. Bontrager
> freehubs have the same problem, as do Easton/Velomax and I'm sure many
> others.
>
> Interestingly, American Classic realised the problem quite a while ago
> and released some radial shims to fir their freehub bodies to reduce/
> eliminate the problem.
>
> The hub's being sent back to Saris with a 'please explain' (as well as
> problems with intermittent data loss ... but that's another story!),
> but I'm wondering, does anyone here recognise the freehub body from
> some other hub manufacturer, and knows if a steel (or a properly
> designed Al alloy ...) freehub could be swapped in? It has KHK stamped
> on it. If Saris/Cyclops won't redesign the part, I'd like to fit a
> steel freehub body so I can easily swap cassettes without needing two
> chainwhips and a chisel.
>
http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/DSCF3807.html
happens all the time with "boutique" shimano-copy hubs. shimano know
this - that's why their free hub bodies are either steel, ti, or deep
spline aluminum. embarrassingly basic error if you ask me.
stick to shimano or mavic or someone that knows how to make a proper
[steel or ti or deep spline aluminum] freehub body.
|
| | |
Date: 11 May 2007 06:59:31
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/DSCF3807.html
> happens all the time with "boutique" shimano-copy hubs. shimano know
> this - that's why their free hub bodies are either steel, ti, or deep
> spline aluminum. embarrassingly basic error if you ask me.
>
> stick to shimano or mavic or someone that knows how to make a proper
> [steel or ti or deep spline aluminum] freehub body.
Or don't and suffer the consequences... er, except that you won't. Truth is,
it's virtually unknown to have someone actually have their cassette cogs
spin on the mechanism because they've dug in as shown in the photos (and, by
the way, my own cassette body looks a lot worse than what's shown in the
photos).
The only real downside, apart from creating a whole lot of fear, uncertainty
& doubt, is that it makes it more difficult to remove the cogs from the
cassette mechanism, since they've rotated beyond their grooves a bit.
Easiest way to deal with it is to use a chain whip and simply rotate them
back in the other direction a bit. I don't want to admit how long it was
before I thought about doing something so simple & obvious...
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
|
| | | |
Date: 11 May 2007 06:23:58
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/DSCF3807.html
>> happens all the time with "boutique" shimano-copy hubs. shimano know
>> this - that's why their free hub bodies are either steel, ti, or deep
>> spline aluminum. embarrassingly basic error if you ask me.
>>
>> stick to shimano or mavic or someone that knows how to make a proper
>> [steel or ti or deep spline aluminum] freehub body.
>
> Or don't and suffer the consequences... er, except that you won't. Truth is,
> it's virtually unknown to have someone actually have their cassette cogs
> spin on the mechanism because they've dug in as shown in the photos (and, by
> the way, my own cassette body looks a lot worse than what's shown in the
> photos).
sorry mike, but when i pay serious bucks for a boutique hub, i want the
thing to work. without being damaged through some moron's
non-engineering oversight. it's not like this is hard to get right.
>
> The only real downside, apart from creating a whole lot of fear, uncertainty
> & doubt, is that it makes it more difficult to remove the cogs from the
> cassette mechanism, since they've rotated beyond their grooves a bit.
> Easiest way to deal with it is to use a chain whip and simply rotate them
> back in the other direction a bit. I don't want to admit how long it was
> before I thought about doing something so simple & obvious...
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
>
|
| | | | |
Date: 11 May 2007 09:35:20
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/DSCF3807.html
>>> happens all the time with "boutique" shimano-copy hubs. shimano know
>>> this - that's why their free hub bodies are either steel, ti, or deep
>>> spline aluminum. embarrassingly basic error if you ask me.
>>>
>>> stick to shimano or mavic or someone that knows how to make a proper
>>> [steel or ti or deep spline aluminum] freehub body.
>>
>> Or don't and suffer the consequences... er, except that you won't. Truth
>> is, it's virtually unknown to have someone actually have their cassette
>> cogs spin on the mechanism because they've dug in as shown in the photos
>> (and, by the way, my own cassette body looks a lot worse than what's
>> shown in the photos).
>
> sorry mike, but when i pay serious bucks for a boutique hub, i want the
> thing to work. without being damaged through some moron's non-engineering
> oversight. it's not like this is hard to get right.
This reminds me of threads about how seriously-deficient Octalink & Isis
splines are. Lots of talk about how bad a design, but no evidence of greater
failure than something "better."
Yes, it would be convenient if you didn't have to rotate cogs backward to
extract them because they dug into the hub. But I don't see it as impeding
the function of the bike, or in fact as anything more than a minor
annoyance.
I would much rather see people spend less time worrying about cassette
splines and crank arm attchments and more time on coming up with a chain
that doesn't require lubrication (and yet is efficient, quiet &
lightweight). Oh, and while we're at it, how about tires that are supple,
low rolling resistance, long life and have greater puncture resistance.
Improvements in those areas would make for, in my opinion, huge leaps in
participation and enjoyment of cycling.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote in message
news:Ro6dnROszKnz89nbnZ2dnUVZ_uninZ2d@speakeasy.net...
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/DSCF3807.html
>>> happens all the time with "boutique" shimano-copy hubs. shimano know
>>> this - that's why their free hub bodies are either steel, ti, or deep
>>> spline aluminum. embarrassingly basic error if you ask me.
>>>
>>> stick to shimano or mavic or someone that knows how to make a proper
>>> [steel or ti or deep spline aluminum] freehub body.
>>
>> Or don't and suffer the consequences... er, except that you won't. Truth
>> is, it's virtually unknown to have someone actually have their cassette
>> cogs spin on the mechanism because they've dug in as shown in the photos
>> (and, by the way, my own cassette body looks a lot worse than what's
>> shown in the photos).
>
> sorry mike, but when i pay serious bucks for a boutique hub, i want the
> thing to work. without being damaged through some moron's non-engineering
> oversight. it's not like this is hard to get right.
>
>>
>> The only real downside, apart from creating a whole lot of fear,
>> uncertainty & doubt, is that it makes it more difficult to remove the
>> cogs from the cassette mechanism, since they've rotated beyond their
>> grooves a bit. Easiest way to deal with it is to use a chain whip and
>> simply rotate them back in the other direction a bit. I don't want to
>> admit how long it was before I thought about doing something so simple &
>> obvious...
>>
>> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
>> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
|
| | | | | |
Date: 12 May 2007 16:57:44
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
In article <eX01i.2257$LR5.451@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net >,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <mikej1@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
> > Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> >>> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/DSCF3807.html
> >>> happens all the time with "boutique" shimano-copy hubs. shimano know
> >>> this - that's why their free hub bodies are either steel, ti, or deep
> >>> spline aluminum. embarrassingly basic error if you ask me.
> >>>
> >>> stick to shimano or mavic or someone that knows how to make a proper
> >>> [steel or ti or deep spline aluminum] freehub body.
> >>
> >> Or don't and suffer the consequences... er, except that you won't. Truth
> >> is, it's virtually unknown to have someone actually have their cassette
> >> cogs spin on the mechanism because they've dug in as shown in the photos
> >> (and, by the way, my own cassette body looks a lot worse than what's
> >> shown in the photos).
> >
> > sorry mike, but when i pay serious bucks for a boutique hub, i want the
> > thing to work. without being damaged through some moron's non-engineering
> > oversight. it's not like this is hard to get right.
>
> This reminds me of threads about how seriously-deficient Octalink & Isis
> splines are. Lots of talk about how bad a design, but no evidence of greater
> failure than something "better."
>
> Yes, it would be convenient if you didn't have to rotate cogs backward to
> extract them because they dug into the hub. But I don't see it as impeding
> the function of the bike, or in fact as anything more than a minor
> annoyance.
A machine part bearing a static load that it is designed for must
not break. This is not a case of an anomalous failure, but
designed in failure. Unacceptable.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 13 May 2007 21:32:21
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
>> This reminds me of threads about how seriously-deficient Octalink & Isis
>> splines are. Lots of talk about how bad a design, but no evidence of
>> greater
>> failure than something "better."
>>
>> Yes, it would be convenient if you didn't have to rotate cogs backward to
>> extract them because they dug into the hub. But I don't see it as
>> impeding
>> the function of the bike, or in fact as anything more than a minor
>> annoyance.
>
> A machine part bearing a static load that it is designed for must
> not break. This is not a case of an anomalous failure, but
> designed in failure. Unacceptable.
>
> --
> Michael Press
Which I would go along with except...
... to the best of my knowledge, nobody has come up with an incidence of
failure.
There seems to be a redefinition going on of failure. It's no longer
required that something actually fail in use. Rather, an appearance that it
*might* fail is all that's required. The irony is that this thread has
caused me to re-think what's gone on with my own hub, which actually looks
worse than the one referenced by the original poster. But all this talk
about potential failure without anyone claiming actual failure has convinced
me I don't need to be concerned. However, I still forwarded my own photos to
the manufacturer (Bontrager, in this case) since, if there's an easy way to
avoid the cogs biting into the mechanism, it would make it a bit easier to
remove them. And be less scary-looking too.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 13 May 2007 23:06:20
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
In article <qDR1i.2836$LR5.1297@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net >,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <mikej1@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
> >> This reminds me of threads about how seriously-deficient Octalink & Isis
> >> splines are. Lots of talk about how bad a design, but no evidence of
> >> greater
> >> failure than something "better."
> >>
> >> Yes, it would be convenient if you didn't have to rotate cogs backward to
> >> extract them because they dug into the hub. But I don't see it as
> >> impeding
> >> the function of the bike, or in fact as anything more than a minor
> >> annoyance.
> >
> > A machine part bearing a static load that it is designed for must
> > not break. This is not a case of an anomalous failure, but
> > designed in failure. Unacceptable.
>
> Which I would go along with except...
>
> ... to the best of my knowledge, nobody has come up with an incidence of
> failure.
>
> There seems to be a redefinition going on of failure. It's no longer
> required that something actually fail in use. Rather, an appearance that it
> *might* fail is all that's required. The irony is that this thread has
> caused me to re-think what's gone on with my own hub, which actually looks
> worse than the one referenced by the original poster. But all this talk
> about potential failure without anyone claiming actual failure has convinced
> me I don't need to be concerned. However, I still forwarded my own photos to
> the manufacturer (Bontrager, in this case) since, if there's an easy way to
> avoid the cogs biting into the mechanism, it would make it a bit easier to
> remove them. And be less scary-looking too.
I use failure to mean degradation of the part: gouging in this case.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 13 May 2007 21:54:57
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>> This reminds me of threads about how seriously-deficient Octalink & Isis
>>> splines are. Lots of talk about how bad a design, but no evidence of
>>> greater
>>> failure than something "better."
>>>
>>> Yes, it would be convenient if you didn't have to rotate cogs backward to
>>> extract them because they dug into the hub. But I don't see it as
>>> impeding
>>> the function of the bike, or in fact as anything more than a minor
>>> annoyance.
>> A machine part bearing a static load that it is designed for must
>> not break. This is not a case of an anomalous failure, but
>> designed in failure. Unacceptable.
>>
>> --
>> Michael Press
>
> Which I would go along with except...
>
> ... to the best of my knowledge, nobody has come up with an incidence of
> failure.
it /has/ failed. it has yielded. that shouldn't happen. particularly
not on a $1500 hub!
>
> There seems to be a redefinition going on of failure. It's no longer
> required that something actually fail in use. Rather, an appearance that it
> *might* fail is all that's required. The irony is that this thread has
> caused me to re-think what's gone on with my own hub, which actually looks
> worse than the one referenced by the original poster. But all this talk
> about potential failure without anyone claiming actual failure has convinced
> me I don't need to be concerned. However, I still forwarded my own photos to
> the manufacturer (Bontrager, in this case) since, if there's an easy way to
> avoid the cogs biting into the mechanism, it would make it a bit easier to
> remove them. And be less scary-looking too.
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
>
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 May 2007 02:12:42
From: Ben C
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
On 2007-05-14, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote:
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>> This reminds me of threads about how seriously-deficient Octalink & Isis
>>>> splines are. Lots of talk about how bad a design, but no evidence of
>>>> greater
>>>> failure than something "better."
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it would be convenient if you didn't have to rotate cogs backward to
>>>> extract them because they dug into the hub. But I don't see it as
>>>> impeding
>>>> the function of the bike, or in fact as anything more than a minor
>>>> annoyance.
>>> A machine part bearing a static load that it is designed for must
>>> not break. This is not a case of an anomalous failure, but
>>> designed in failure. Unacceptable.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Press
>>
>> Which I would go along with except...
>>
>> ... to the best of my knowledge, nobody has come up with an incidence of
>> failure.
>
> it /has/ failed. it has yielded. that shouldn't happen. particularly
> not on a $1500 hub!
The spoke holes on my $1500, er $50 hubs yielded when I built the wheel
and they're OK.
With spoke hole yielding the idea is that as the spoke sort of sinks
into the hub it provides more and more resistance until you have a good
support that's no longer yielding.
I imagine something similar could happen with freehub splines as the
sprockets bed into them.
I'd be disappointed if I forked $1500 and my hub looked like it had been
chewed by a squirrel, but it sounds like Mike has a point. You'd need a
huge force to strip a spline right off.
>> There seems to be a redefinition going on of failure. It's no longer
>> required that something actually fail in use.
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 May 2007 20:10:47
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
Ben C wrote:
> On 2007-05-14, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>>> This reminds me of threads about how seriously-deficient Octalink & Isis
>>>>> splines are. Lots of talk about how bad a design, but no evidence of
>>>>> greater
>>>>> failure than something "better."
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, it would be convenient if you didn't have to rotate cogs backward to
>>>>> extract them because they dug into the hub. But I don't see it as
>>>>> impeding
>>>>> the function of the bike, or in fact as anything more than a minor
>>>>> annoyance.
>>>> A machine part bearing a static load that it is designed for must
>>>> not break. This is not a case of an anomalous failure, but
>>>> designed in failure. Unacceptable.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Michael Press
>>> Which I would go along with except...
>>>
>>> ... to the best of my knowledge, nobody has come up with an incidence of
>>> failure.
>> it /has/ failed. it has yielded. that shouldn't happen. particularly
>> not on a $1500 hub!
>
> The spoke holes on my $1500, er $50 hubs yielded when I built the wheel
> and they're OK.
good point!
>
> With spoke hole yielding the idea is that as the spoke sort of sinks
> into the hub it provides more and more resistance until you have a good
> support that's no longer yielding.
>
> I imagine something similar could happen with freehub splines as the
> sprockets bed into them.
you don't want that to happen. with a spoke, the contact point is tiny
initially, and the contact area grows rapidly as the wire embeds - just
like with a brinell indenter. resistance to further grows accordingly.
with a sprocket and spline, the sprocket presents no greater area to the
spline as it embeds, so the only resistance can come from work hardening
of the material and perhaps a little pile-up. this is highly
unsatisfactory and will in due course lead to total failure after a
given number of yielding loads.
>
> I'd be disappointed if I forked $1500 and my hub looked like it had been
> chewed by a squirrel, but it sounds like Mike has a point. You'd need a
> huge force to strip a spline right off.
>
>>> There seems to be a redefinition going on of failure. It's no longer
>>> required that something actually fail in use.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 11 May 2007 20:25:22
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/DSCF3807.html
>>>> happens all the time with "boutique" shimano-copy hubs. shimano know
>>>> this - that's why their free hub bodies are either steel, ti, or deep
>>>> spline aluminum. embarrassingly basic error if you ask me.
>>>>
>>>> stick to shimano or mavic or someone that knows how to make a proper
>>>> [steel or ti or deep spline aluminum] freehub body.
>>> Or don't and suffer the consequences... er, except that you won't. Truth
>>> is, it's virtually unknown to have someone actually have their cassette
>>> cogs spin on the mechanism because they've dug in as shown in the photos
>>> (and, by the way, my own cassette body looks a lot worse than what's
>>> shown in the photos).
>> sorry mike, but when i pay serious bucks for a boutique hub, i want the
>> thing to work. without being damaged through some moron's non-engineering
>> oversight. it's not like this is hard to get right.
>
> This reminds me of threads about how seriously-deficient Octalink & Isis
> splines are. Lots of talk about how bad a design, but no evidence of greater
> failure than something "better."
"deficient"? do they yield?
>
> Yes, it would be convenient if you didn't have to rotate cogs backward to
> extract them because they dug into the hub. But I don't see it as impeding
> the function of the bike, or in fact as anything more than a minor
> annoyance.
<snip >
minor annoyance??? that's gross yielding of the material - it's
completely negligent. but what i /really/ don't understand is why you
think that acceptable performance on a $1,500 hub!!!
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 12 May 2007 04:32:27
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
In article <fPGdnREsRr4_rtjbnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@speakeasy.net >,
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote:
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> >> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> >>>> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/DSCF3807.html
> >>>> happens all the time with "boutique" shimano-copy hubs. shimano know
> >>>> this - that's why their free hub bodies are either steel, ti, or deep
> >>>> spline aluminum. embarrassingly basic error if you ask me.
> >>>>
> >>>> stick to shimano or mavic or someone that knows how to make a proper
> >>>> [steel or ti or deep spline aluminum] freehub body.
> >>> Or don't and suffer the consequences... er, except that you won't. Truth
> >>> is, it's virtually unknown to have someone actually have their cassette
> >>> cogs spin on the mechanism because they've dug in as shown in the photos
> >>> (and, by the way, my own cassette body looks a lot worse than what's
> >>> shown in the photos).
> >> sorry mike, but when i pay serious bucks for a boutique hub, i want the
> >> thing to work. without being damaged through some moron's non-engineering
> >> oversight. it's not like this is hard to get right.
> >
> > This reminds me of threads about how seriously-deficient Octalink & Isis
> > splines are. Lots of talk about how bad a design, but no evidence of
> > greater
> > failure than something "better."
>
> "deficient"? do they yield?
Octalink spindles don't yield, but I've seen enough cranks where the
spline interface is chewed up worse than an aluminum freehub shell to be
happy something better is out there. Jobst has proposed the cause of
this failure, and his thesis seems sensible to me.
Ironically, the spindles are probably just fine,
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 11 May 2007 21:40:09
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> In article <fPGdnREsRr4_rtjbnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>>>> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/DSCF3807.html
>>>>>> happens all the time with "boutique" shimano-copy hubs. shimano know
>>>>>> this - that's why their free hub bodies are either steel, ti, or deep
>>>>>> spline aluminum. embarrassingly basic error if you ask me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> stick to shimano or mavic or someone that knows how to make a proper
>>>>>> [steel or ti or deep spline aluminum] freehub body.
>>>>> Or don't and suffer the consequences... er, except that you won't. Truth
>>>>> is, it's virtually unknown to have someone actually have their cassette
>>>>> cogs spin on the mechanism because they've dug in as shown in the photos
>>>>> (and, by the way, my own cassette body looks a lot worse than what's
>>>>> shown in the photos).
>>>> sorry mike, but when i pay serious bucks for a boutique hub, i want the
>>>> thing to work. without being damaged through some moron's non-engineering
>>>> oversight. it's not like this is hard to get right.
>>> This reminds me of threads about how seriously-deficient Octalink & Isis
>>> splines are. Lots of talk about how bad a design, but no evidence of
>>> greater
>>> failure than something "better."
>> "deficient"? do they yield?
>
> Octalink spindles don't yield, but I've seen enough cranks where the
> spline interface is chewed up worse than an aluminum freehub shell to be
> happy something better is out there. Jobst has proposed the cause of
> this failure, and his thesis seems sensible to me.
octalink may not be idiot-proof, but nor is square taper. i've never
had an octalink crank loosen, let alone get chewed, but i take the
trouble to torque correctly. i currently own 7 bikes with octalink
cranks. i weigh #205. i have many thousands of miles on them - the
oldest one about 18k. never a blink of trouble. until i experience it,
i say it's mechanic error. factory torque is a good deal higher than is
averagely possible with a 4" hex wrench.
>
> Ironically, the spindles are probably just fine,
>
why's that ironic?
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 11 May 2007 21:41:31
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
jim beam wrote:
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>> In article <fPGdnREsRr4_rtjbnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>>>>> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/DSCF3807.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> happens all the time with "boutique" shimano-copy hubs. shimano
>>>>>>> know this - that's why their free hub bodies are either steel,
>>>>>>> ti, or deep spline aluminum. embarrassingly basic error if you
>>>>>>> ask me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> stick to shimano or mavic or someone that knows how to make a
>>>>>>> proper [steel or ti or deep spline aluminum] freehub body.
>>>>>> Or don't and suffer the consequences... er, except that you won't.
>>>>>> Truth is, it's virtually unknown to have someone actually have
>>>>>> their cassette cogs spin on the mechanism because they've dug in
>>>>>> as shown in the photos (and, by the way, my own cassette body
>>>>>> looks a lot worse than what's shown in the photos).
>>>>> sorry mike, but when i pay serious bucks for a boutique hub, i want
>>>>> the thing to work. without being damaged through some moron's
>>>>> non-engineering oversight. it's not like this is hard to get right.
>>>> This reminds me of threads about how seriously-deficient Octalink &
>>>> Isis splines are. Lots of talk about how bad a design, but no
>>>> evidence of greater failure than something "better."
>>> "deficient"? do they yield?
>>
>> Octalink spindles don't yield, but I've seen enough cranks where the
>> spline interface is chewed up worse than an aluminum freehub shell to
>> be happy something better is out there. Jobst has proposed the cause
>> of this failure, and his thesis seems sensible to me.
>
> octalink may not be idiot-proof, but nor is square taper. i've never
> had an octalink crank loosen, let alone get chewed, but i take the
> trouble to torque correctly. i currently own 7 bikes with octalink
> cranks. i weigh #205. i have many thousands of miles on them - the
> oldest one about 18k. never a blink of trouble. until i experience it,
> i say it's mechanic error. factory torque is a good deal higher than is
> averagely possible with a 4" hex wrench.
i should add, i've had a number of square taper cranks loosen.
>
>>
>> Ironically, the spindles are probably just fine,
>>
> why's that ironic?
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 May 2007 19:39:23
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
In article <6oSdncLFEuzh2NjbnZ2dnUVZ_o_inZ2d@speakeasy.net >,
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
> > Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> >> In article <fPGdnREsRr4_rtjbnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
> >> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >> Octalink spindles don't yield, but I've seen enough cranks where the
> >> spline interface is chewed up worse than an aluminum freehub shell to
> >> be happy something better is out there. Jobst has proposed the cause
> >> of this failure, and his thesis seems sensible to me.
> >
> > octalink may not be idiot-proof, but nor is square taper. i've never
> > had an octalink crank loosen, let alone get chewed, but i take the
> > trouble to torque correctly. i currently own 7 bikes with octalink
> > cranks. i weigh #205. i have many thousands of miles on them - the
> > oldest one about 18k. never a blink of trouble. until i experience it,
> > i say it's mechanic error. factory torque is a good deal higher than is
> > averagely possible with a 4" hex wrench.
>
> i should add, i've had a number of square taper cranks loosen.
> >> Ironically, the spindles are probably just fine,
> >>
> > why's that ironic?
Well, I suppose it isn't, strictly speaking, but the main reason the
Octalink design arrived was to solve the poor interface of the
square-taper, and also the weakness of the spindles under heavy loads
(meaining mostly heavy riders or rougher MTB races).
With Octalink, the spindle failures disappeared, but then cranks started
getting chewed up.
As to the nature of "mechanic's error," that's fair comment, but it's
rather like many human error issues: if the humans aren't working
according to the engineering spec, it's usually easier to change the
engineering than the humans.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
| | | | | |
Date: 11 May 2007 18:19:00
From: _
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
On Fri, 11 May 2007 09:35:20 -0700, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>
>> sorry mike, but when i pay serious bucks for a boutique hub, i want the
>> thing to work. without being damaged through some moron's non-engineering
>> oversight. it's not like this is hard to get right.
>
> This reminds me of threads about how seriously-deficient Octalink & Isis
> splines are. Lots of talk about how bad a design, but no evidence of greater
> failure than something "better."
>
Yup.
Just like the thread on cut versus rolled threads - lots of alarmist
blather & errors, but no examples of failure. Well, one, but that turned
out to be a lie.
|
| |
Date: 10 May 2007 05:37:57
From: Bleve
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
On May 10, 7:05 pm, "Resound" <sacredc...@bigpond.com > wrote:
> "Bleve" <carl.I.bre...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1178778666.331010.90840@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Here's what happens to the current Powertap SL 2.4 (RRP in Australia
> > of ~$2,700) hub after 1,500km of normal use with a 10sp Shimano
> > cassette (Ultegra).
>
> >http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/
>
> > The photoset also has a comparison with a Dura-Ace Al alloy freehub
> > (the silver one that fits properly ...).
> > The Saris/Cyclops freehub is a bronze colour, and is clearly quite
> > badly damaged.
>
> > This is the same damage that occurs with any Al alloy freehub body
> > that's not designed to mate properly with Shimano 10sp. Bontrager
> > freehubs have the same problem, as do Easton/Velomax and I'm sure many
> > others.
>
> > Interestingly, American Classic realised the problem quite a while ago
> > and released some radial shims to fir their freehub bodies to reduce/
> > eliminate the problem.
>
> > The hub's being sent back to Saris with a 'please explain' (as well as
> > problems with intermittent data loss ... but that's another story!),
> > but I'm wondering, does anyone here recognise the freehub body from
> > some other hub manufacturer, and knows if a steel (or a properly
> > designed Al alloy ...) freehub could be swapped in? It has KHK stamped
> > on it. If Saris/Cyclops won't redesign the part, I'd like to fit a
> > steel freehub body so I can easily swap cassettes without needing two
> > chainwhips and a chisel.
>
> I've seen this sort of damage before and the thing that always strikes me is
> that the cogs only seem to bear on about 40% of the hub given that they
> carve slots with big gaps between them. Surely it'd be a better thing al
> around if they bore on as much surface area as possible?
pressure = force/area, so yes. The difference with the d-a alloy hub
is that the splines are about 100% deeper, so there's more area, thus
half the pressure for the same force. We're using the hub for a
reasonable amount of high power stuff, peaking at around 1450 watts or
so, so it's under a fair load.
And yes, the cassette is Shimano. Ultegra 10sp (as stated in the
original post)
|
| |
Date: 10 May 2007 05:52:13
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
On 9 May 2007 23:31:06 -0700, Bleve <carl.I.brewer@gmail.com > wrote:
>http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/
> If Saris/Cyclops won't redesign the part, I'd like to fit a
>steel freehub body so I can easily swap cassettes without needing two
>chainwhips and a chisel.
Maybe you're too strong....
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| |
Date: 10 May 2007 19:05:18
From: Resound
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
"Bleve" <carl.I.brewer@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1178778666.331010.90840@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Here's what happens to the current Powertap SL 2.4 (RRP in Australia
> of ~$2,700) hub after 1,500km of normal use with a 10sp Shimano
> cassette (Ultegra).
>
> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/
>
> The photoset also has a comparison with a Dura-Ace Al alloy freehub
> (the silver one that fits properly ...).
> The Saris/Cyclops freehub is a bronze colour, and is clearly quite
> badly damaged.
>
> This is the same damage that occurs with any Al alloy freehub body
> that's not designed to mate properly with Shimano 10sp. Bontrager
> freehubs have the same problem, as do Easton/Velomax and I'm sure many
> others.
>
> Interestingly, American Classic realised the problem quite a while ago
> and released some radial shims to fir their freehub bodies to reduce/
> eliminate the problem.
>
> The hub's being sent back to Saris with a 'please explain' (as well as
> problems with intermittent data loss ... but that's another story!),
> but I'm wondering, does anyone here recognise the freehub body from
> some other hub manufacturer, and knows if a steel (or a properly
> designed Al alloy ...) freehub could be swapped in? It has KHK stamped
> on it. If Saris/Cyclops won't redesign the part, I'd like to fit a
> steel freehub body so I can easily swap cassettes without needing two
> chainwhips and a chisel.
>
I've seen this sort of damage before and the thing that always strikes me is
that the cogs only seem to bear on about 40% of the hub given that they
carve slots with big gaps between them. Surely it'd be a better thing al
around if they bore on as much surface area as possible?
|
| |
Date: 10 May 2007 15:31:32
From: DeF
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
Bleve wrote:
> Here's what happens to the current Powertap SL 2.4 (RRP in Australia
> of ~$2,700) hub after 1,500km of normal use with a 10sp Shimano
> cassette (Ultegra).
>
> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20070509-saris-hub/
>
> The photoset also has a comparison with a Dura-Ace Al alloy freehub
> (the silver one that fits properly ...).
> The Saris/Cyclops freehub is a bronze colour, and is clearly quite
> badly damaged.
>
> This is the same damage that occurs with any Al alloy freehub body
> that's not designed to mate properly with Shimano 10sp. Bontrager
> freehubs have the same problem, as do Easton/Velomax and I'm sure many
> others.
>
> Interestingly, American Classic realised the problem quite a while ago
> and released some radial shims to fir their freehub bodies to reduce/
> eliminate the problem.
>
> The hub's being sent back to Saris with a 'please explain' (as well as
> problems with intermittent data loss ... but that's another story!),
> but I'm wondering, does anyone here recognise the freehub body from
> some other hub manufacturer, and knows if a steel (or a properly
> designed Al alloy ...) freehub could be swapped in? It has KHK stamped
> on it. If Saris/Cyclops won't redesign the part, I'd like to fit a
> steel freehub body so I can easily swap cassettes without needing two
> chainwhips and a chisel.
>
That looks bad. One thing occurs to me. What's the story with the
"missing" teeth on the inside of the cassette rings? Out of the 9
grooves on the free hub there seems to only be 6 "teeth" on the
inside of the cassette rings. See, for example, DSCF3826.JPG.
This would have the effect of loading up the slots that have teeth
more than if there was a tooth for each slot. Clearly 6 isn't
enough as the denting continues after the initial displacement
(which would then have contact on all 6 surfaces). Is the cassette
a shimano cassette?
I'm going to check my campy cassettes when I get home but I'm pretty
sure there's a tooth for each slot.
DeF.
--
e-mail: d.farrow@your finger.murdoch.edu.au
To reply, you'll have to remove your finger.
|
| |
Date: 10 May 2007 17:16:40
From: Shane Stanley
Subject: Re: cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes
|
In article <1178778666.331010.90840@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com >,
Bleve <carl.I.brewer@gmail.com > wrote:
> It has KHK stamped on it.
Ouch! Have you looked at <http://www.khkgears.co.jp/en/ > at all?
Assuming that's who made it, their catalog suggests it's a custom job.
--
Shane Stanley
|
|
