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Date: 07 May 2007 06:24:53
From: datakoll@yahoo.com
Subject: electric bicycles commuting
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http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/business/yourmoney/06bikes.html
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Date: 11 May 2007 15:23:30
From: datakoll@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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what we need to combat global warning?
an e bike commuter goes
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH at 145
db
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Date: 10 May 2007 13:38:55
From: datakoll@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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? In Oregon we have Death with Dignity. That's the
> real sh**! That's the one-way commute. -- Jay Beattie.
have you read McManus?
did you hear Florida legalized no tag no insurance motorcycles?
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Date: 10 May 2007 13:01:34
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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On May 10, 12:19 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com > wrote:
> SMS wrote:
>
> > Buying a commute bicycle is extremely difficult because so few
> > shops carry them. See "http://www.commuterbicycles.com/bikes.htm".
> > I love their statement "We carry selected non-Chinese bikes from
> > these manufacturers:..."
>
> The folks at that shop seem pretty proud of their shaft drive bicycles
> and two brands of noseless saddles, which doesn't speak well of their
> long term experience, judgment, or credibility. I'm just sayin'.
>
> Chalo
What an annoying website with the witless looking woman in her rain
jacket -- which probably gets used once a year in Santa Barbara (and
her bike with no fenders). And the guy with a tie and coat at the
bottom of the page, looking back over his shoulder. What is he
looking for -- the chasing Mormon peleton? Ride with dignity? Who
writes this stuff? In Oregon we have Death with Dignity. That's the
real sh**! That's the one-way commute. -- Jay Beattie.
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Date: 10 May 2007 12:19:45
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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SMS wrote:
>
> Buying a commute bicycle is extremely difficult because so few
> shops carry them. See "http://www.commuterbicycles.com/bikes.htm".
> I love their statement "We carry selected non-Chinese bikes from
> these manufacturers:..."
The folks at that shop seem pretty proud of their shaft drive bicycles
and two brands of noseless saddles, which doesn't speak well of their
long term experience, judgment, or credibility. I'm just sayin'.
Chalo
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Date: 10 May 2007 10:59:28
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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DougC wrote:
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > You didn't try an analysis of a lead-acid powered e-bike, which is
> > what most folks use. Commodity 12AH SLA batteries cost a minimum of
> > $25 and $30 shipped, so the pack would cost between $50 and $90
> > instead of $400 to $1000 as you have supposed. They can also last 500
> > cycles, if they are not discharged too deeply.
>
> It is true that I have never owned any electric bicycle at all----but it
> is my understanding that enthusiasts do NOT like lead-acid batteries.
> Lead-acid are inexpensive, but compared to other types they are also
> /very/ heavy and don't have a lot of energy-storage density. ,,,,I chose
> to pick on the Bionx setup because many people say that it is simply the
> best overall (available in the USA), in terms of function and performance.
E-bikers like to complain about lead acid batteries, but ultimately
that is what the great majority use-- even the great majority of those
who build up their own bikes from parts they choose piecemeal. The
other battery chemistries have tradeoffs that are at least as onerous,
not least of which is the heavy replacement cost. Others object to
NiCD, NiMH, and Li-ion batteries due to their shortcomings in
performance, reliability, and safety compared to sealed lead-acid
batteries.
Nickel batteries are not as big a problem for the Bionx as for many
other e-bikes because its power is so sharply restricted (lessening
voltage sag under load). Most US states allow 750W or 1000W of motor
power, while the Bionx is restricted to 250W or 350W depending on
model. Between its low output wattage and its high motor efficiency,
it does not make the current demands of its battery that most e-bikes
do.
> If you want to build a decent-range
> vehicle that uses lead-acid batteries, the fact is that most of what
> your vehicle will be carrying is lead-acid batteries.
Most of what any e-bike will be carrying is its rider. Even apart
from that, it's typical for an e-bike to weigh about 80 lbs., 30 lbs.
of which is three 12V 12AH SLA batteries.
> I will admit that there are times where an electric drive has important
> advantages--but cost-per-mile isn't likely to be one of them until
> gasoline costs a lot more.
Or unless you factor in the cost of title, registration and, as
applicable, insurance for a gas equivalent. Or maintenance and repair
savings that accrue from being able to store the electric one indoors
when the gas bike would be left to stink outside. Starting your cost
analysis with the assumption that replacement batteries cost 8 to 12
times more than what the average e-bike uses is not statistically
sound. You could assume that the gasser would be burning expensive
nitromethane fuel, too, but that wouldn't match what you could observe
people actually using.
Chalo
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Date: 11 May 2007 11:29:29
From: DougC
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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Chalo wrote:
> E-bikers like to complain about lead acid batteries, but ultimately
> that is what the great majority use-- even the great majority of those
> who build up their own bikes from parts they choose piecemeal.
> ....
I don't know what the majority use.
What I've seen from online message forums is that many people start out
by buying a very-cheap e-bike for only a couple hundred dollars or so,
and then are disappointed with its short "neighborhood" range. So then
they either start upgrading it (batteries, motor or both), they use it
until the led-acid batteries expire and then upgrade, or they stop using
it entirely.
Many of the cheapo e-bikes DO come with lead-acid batteries, so you
could say "that's what sells best" and you wouldn't be wrong,,, but that
doesn't mean that it's what works best. If there was some way to
calculate the total miles across the different price ranges, I'd bet
that the people using the more-expensive setups turn a LOT more miles
than all the people who spent $250 for an e-bike once at Costco.
> Nickel batteries are not as big a problem for the Bionx as for many
> other e-bikes because its power is so sharply restricted (lessening
> voltage sag under load).
I noticed this too; the Bionx setup doesn't store much more power, it
only stretches its power out over a longer distance.
Ultimately however this is almost ALWAYS the complaint about e-bikes,
that the batteries run out too quick. It doesn't matter how much or how
little someone spent on their setup.
> Most of what any e-bike will be carrying is its rider. Even apart
> from that, it's typical for an e-bike to weigh about 80 lbs., 30 lbs.
> of which is three 12V 12AH SLA batteries.
As I said, most enthusiasts start cheap but gravitate away from
lead-acid batteries to some other type. There must be a reason that
e-bike companies can charge a premium for NiMH and Li-Ion batteries.
Also we note--I think that as a practical matter, a gasoline engine is
still a lot more useful than any e-engine. The limiting factor if the
usefulness of an e-bike is the range; for the gas-engine setup it's only
the top speed. A 10-lb gas engine and 20 lbs of fuel can get you /way/,
/way/ farther than 30 lbs of any batteries will spin any electric motor.
And (if it's a 4-cycle) the gas-engine setup can be refueled basically
instantly at any gas station.
The *lifespan* of either setup is very difficult to estimate, as I noted
on my own web page.... There are people who use the cheap Chinese
gasoline engine kits, and have put 10K-15K miles on them with no major
problems. It's reasonable to expect that a higher-quality Japanese
engine would last at least as long.
> Or unless you factor in the cost of title, registration and, as
> applicable, insurance for a gas equivalent.
In many places in the US, there's no requirements for either.
> Or maintenance and repair
> savings that accrue from being able to store the electric one indoors
> when the gas bike would be left to stink outside.
Yea I've noticed this, I wish I could find a fix for it... but then I
suppose, I don't store anything else with a fuel-burning engine inside
either. I guess that the people that storage would most-likely be an
issue for would be urban dwellers, but then again they would also be the
people that would most-likely have the most options for mass-transit
anyway.
> Starting your cost
> analysis with the assumption that replacement batteries cost 8 to 12
> times more than what the average e-bike uses is not statistically
> sound.
Well,,,,, I don't see anyone riding e-bikes locally, so I have to go by
what I'm reading people discuss online.... -but the only advantage
lead-acid e-bikes seem to have is that they're cheapest. In every other
aspect they seem to be worse--they're heaviest, they hold the least
power and take the longest to recharge.
~
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Date: 11 May 2007 12:41:14
From: DougC
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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DougC wrote:
>
> Many of the cheapo e-bikes DO come with lead-acid batteries,
>
The more I think about this, it seems like most cheapo e-bikes come with
ni-cads, not lead-acids.
Still, there must be a reason why--if lead-acids can give superior
performance, yet none of these places seem to offer them.
Liability of leakage in a crash maybe?
I don't know--but it is surprising the prices people will pay *not* to
use lead-acids....
~
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Date: 10 May 2007 11:22:37
From: SMS
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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Chalo wrote:
> Or unless you factor in the cost of title, registration and, as
> applicable, insurance for a gas equivalent. Or maintenance and repair
> savings that accrue from being able to store the electric one indoors
> when the gas bike would be left to stink outside. Starting your cost
> analysis with the assumption that replacement batteries cost 8 to 12
> times more than what the average e-bike uses is not statistically
> sound. You could assume that the gasser would be burning expensive
> nitromethane fuel, too, but that wouldn't match what you could observe
> people actually using.
It's not just that. You can buy NiMH battery packs for a lot less than
Bionx sells them for as well. I.e., a 36V/10AH pack costs $270 from
another source, not $445 from Bionx.
But as you state, most people will use SLA, which are heavier, but have
other attributes that make them more suitable.
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Date: 09 May 2007 19:54:18
From: datakoll@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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baum has a hernia
what do you think of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations
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Date: 10 May 2007 04:28:46
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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In article <1178765658.556218.317100@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com >,
"datakoll@yahoo.com" <datakoll@yahoo.com > wrote:
> baum has a hernia
>
> what do you think of
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations
Personally, I'm against it.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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Date: 09 May 2007 16:50:58
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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On May 7, 4:13 pm, DougC <dcim...@norcom2000.com > wrote:
> datak...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/business/yourmoney/06bikes.html
>
> Does this mean he's not using the $4000 Segway anymore?
> ~
Wow, a climb to 9,800 feet! Incredible. What the article fails to
mention is that his route gains only 600 feet in ten miles -- at least
on the bike trail. http://tinyurl.com/2hv89p For that he needs a $7K
electric bike? God, just ride a conventional bike, get some exercise,
see the sights and pocket $5K or more. Look out for the kiddies with
streamers. -- Jay Beattie.
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Date: 10 May 2007 06:53:23
From: SMS
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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Jay Beattie wrote:
> On May 7, 4:13 pm, DougC <dcim...@norcom2000.com> wrote:
>> datak...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/business/yourmoney/06bikes.html
>> Does this mean he's not using the $4000 Segway anymore?
>> ~
>
> Wow, a climb to 9,800 feet! Incredible. What the article fails to
> mention is that his route gains only 600 feet in ten miles -- at least
> on the bike trail. http://tinyurl.com/2hv89p For that he needs a $7K
> electric bike? God, just ride a conventional bike, get some exercise,
> see the sights and pocket $5K or more. Look out for the kiddies with
> streamers. -- Jay Beattie.
Plus, electric bikes aren't allowed on most bike trails. There was just
a big to-do about Segways on a popular multi-use trail near where I
live, and the city council decided to not allow them on the trail. Bravo.
"http://www.community-newspapers.com/archives/campbellreporter/20070110/news1.shtml"
While it's better to have people riding electric bikes versus driving an
SUV, these types of articles make it seem as if those are the only two
choices. I see a guy riding a Segway over to Apple on many mornings, and
he lives only two miles away in Sunnyvale, and the Segway commute takes
him 20 minutes. He could ride a bicycle, very slowly, and not work up a
sweat. He always looks very serious and in deep concentration when I see
him. Is riding a Segway that difficult? His wife also rides a Segway to
work, less than two miles away.
"http://www.community-newspapers.com/archives/cupertinocourier/20060531/cover1.shtml"
I think one issue is that there are so few commute bicycles available
for sale. I mean _real_ commute bikes, complete with hub-dynamos,
fenders, full chain guards, racks, etc. Where you can hop on, in your
street clothes, and just go, without ending up with chain oil on your
clothes. And I don't mean converting a hybrid or other bike to a
pseudo-commute bike, I mean going to the damn bicycle shop and
purchasing a complete, real commute bike.
Buying a commute bicycle is extremely difficult because so few shops
carry them. See "http://www.commuterbicycles.com/bikes.htm". I love
their statement "We carry selected non-Chinese bikes from these
manufacturers:..."
For those that must spend a fortune, there are very expensive commute
bikes available. I.e. see "http://usa.koga.com/" . They have models with
automatic transmissions and even ABS!
A large part of the reason that people purchase Segways and electric
bicycles is for the attention they receive by owning a visible
out-of-the ordinary item. A strange looking expensive bicycle might fit
the bill as well.
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Date: 11 May 2007 10:44:03
From: DougC
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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SMS wrote:
> Plus, electric bikes aren't allowed on most bike trails. There was just
> a big to-do about Segways on a popular multi-use trail near where I
> live, and the city council decided to not allow them on the trail. Bravo.
>
I have heard of this matter--in a couple instances of pedestrians
getting hit by e-bikes on MUPs, the (formerly-allowed) e-bikes were then
banned from MUP use. Part of the justification was that an e-bike can go
faster than a typical person would pedal and that an e-bike makes little
to no noise, so others cannot hear it approaching from behind.
Rather ironic that the quiet operation that e-bike enthusiasts love so
much is what would get them banned from what often seems to be their
favorite places to ride. Some of these people act as if it's the end of
the world that they wouldn't be allowed to use MUPs....
I can't ride a *regular* bike at a half-decent speed on the MUPs most
days for all the power walkers, toddlers on roller-skates and people
with dog-reels. If you put an engine on your bike, I think it's time to
go ride in the street with the rest of the motorized vehicles.
> I think one issue is that there are so few commute bicycles available
> for sale. I mean _real_ commute bikes, complete with hub-dynamos,
> fenders, full chain guards, racks, etc. Where you can hop on, in your
> street clothes, and just go, without ending up with chain oil on your
> clothes. And I don't mean converting a hybrid or other bike to a
> pseudo-commute bike, I mean going to the damn bicycle shop and
> purchasing a complete, real commute bike.
Electra has the Amsterdam one now, for like $550. It needs some side
baskets and a 7-speed option would be nice but everything else seems to
be there. Bottle generator tho, hubs are still fairly pricy options,,,
but I noticed that the latest Shimano gee-whiz bikes coming out (the
ones with the auto-shifting thingies) appear to have a front hub
generator? Even though I think if they cost much less than the usual
suspects then they'd be built a lot cheaper as well.
> For those that must spend a fortune, there are very expensive commute
> bikes available. I.e. see "http://usa.koga.com/" . They have models with
> automatic transmissions and even ABS!
Somebody on a bike forum asked where to get a Dutch-style bike in the US.
Someone else suggested a Koga-Miyata.
The full-featured city bike was like $3200; the "stripped" model was
"only" $1800!
I wish Koga-Miyata all the best of luck--nobody in my town wants to lock
up a $3200 bike on the street.
Things are different in Japan I hear.....
~
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Date: 11 May 2007 13:22:01
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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> SMS wrote:
>> Plus, electric bikes aren't allowed on most bike trails.
-much snip-
DougC wrote:
> Somebody on a bike forum asked where to get a Dutch-style bike in the US.
> Someone else suggested a Koga-Miyata.
> The full-featured city bike was like $3200; the "stripped" model was
> "only" $1800!
> I wish Koga-Miyata all the best of luck--nobody in my town wants to lock
> up a $3200 bike on the street.
> Things are different in Japan I hear.....
Batavus Dutch bikes (through Redline/SBS) will be plentiful here shortly.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 09 May 2007 11:23:28
From: datakoll@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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The gas advocate and mouse farts:
Weigh the apparently small cubic footage of pollution against the real
time blue air effects from unburned hydrocarbon droplets, burned
gases, and particulates
100*5000*60=30000000 [ 100cc x rpm ]
30000000
30 000 000 cubic centimeter = 1 059.439 997 167 cubic foot
1 059.439 997 167*365=386695.598965955 [ days used ]
386695.598965955*100000=38669559896.5955 [ days used x users ]
38 669 559 896.595 5 cubic foot = 0.262 704 47 cubic mile
0.262 704 47/4=0.0656761175 (4 stroke) cubic mile pollution
0.262 704 47/2=0.131352235 (2 stroke )
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Date: 09 May 2007 08:45:11
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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DougC wrote:
>
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> > There's a lot to be said for the inobtrusiveness of electric power: no
> > noise, no fuss.
>
> Yea, unfortunately it costs more per mile to say it.
> My own page on the matter:http://tinyurl.com/ywrjrz
You didn't try an analysis of a lead-acid powered e-bike, which is
what most folks use. Commodity 12AH SLA batteries cost a minimum of
$25 and $30 shipped, so the pack would cost between $50 and $90
instead of $400 to $1000 as you have supposed. They can also last 500
cycles, if they are not discharged too deeply.
Chalo
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Date: 10 May 2007 03:30:59
From: DougC
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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Chalo wrote:
>
> You didn't try an analysis of a lead-acid powered e-bike, which is
> what most folks use. Commodity 12AH SLA batteries cost a minimum of
> $25 and $30 shipped, so the pack would cost between $50 and $90
> instead of $400 to $1000 as you have supposed. They can also last 500
> cycles, if they are not discharged too deeply.
>
> Chalo
>
It is true that I have never owned any electric bicycle at all----but it
is my understanding that enthusiasts do NOT like lead-acid batteries.
Lead-acid are inexpensive, but compared to other types they are also
/very/ heavy and don't have a lot of energy-storage density. ,,,,I chose
to pick on the Bionx setup because many people say that it is simply the
best overall (available in the USA), in terms of function and performance.
This matter of lead-acid batteries was brought up during another
discussion on the subject; someone posted a link to a fairly-inexpensive
electric (lead/acid) scooter that boasted a ~25 mile range. One problem
was that it had no bicycle-pedals or means of secondary drive at all--so
pushing that 25-mile range was rather risky. Another problem was that it
weighed something like 220 lbs.
There are electric pallet jacks and forklifts where I work; the forklift
weighs 5500 lbs and 3500 lbs is batteries, the pallet jacks weigh 1500
lbs and 950 lbs is batteries. If you want to build a decent-range
vehicle that uses lead-acid batteries, the fact is that most of what
your vehicle will be carrying is lead-acid batteries.
I will admit that there are times where an electric drive has important
advantages--but cost-per-mile isn't likely to be one of them until
gasoline costs a lot more.
~
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Date: 08 May 2007 20:10:49
From: datakoll@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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cute doesn.t cover the subject nor do mouse farts. there's a problem-
no oil/global warming/china coal- and a technology eg the electric
bicycle that doesn't burn air on site, the design burns air at other
removed sites.
overall, is the removed burning more efficient? I haven't done the
research nor have I heard or read any suggestion that anyone has done
so despite the concern the question is centrally relevant: maybe a
look thru google papers?
add machining production costs, metal processing costs, wear, need for
maintenance/inspection....??? the electric seams to have an advantage
in simplicity if demands placed on the available battery systems are
reasonable, prudent.
clean air in the velo lane is essential: the blue smog producing small
poorly maintained IC are notorious, despised and legislated against.
cheap, polluting but simple to keep running-keep pouring in gas and
lubricating oil then throw it away and get another. that's how the IC
won and how we got here at the end of the road. when searching for
transportation solutions, is it difficult to grip the fact the IC's
misuse bears significant responsible for our global energy problem ?
the better answer is walk which in the end is the only answer.
anyway whose 5 year plan was only allowing electrics?
some body recently ruled against bicycles! Singapore?
http://trb.metapress.com/content/957u340614257164/
http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aacarsgasa.htm
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa shit
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Date: 09 May 2007 03:04:53
From: Ben C
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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On 2007-05-09, datakoll@yahoo.com <datakoll@yahoo.com > wrote:
> cute doesn.t cover the subject nor do mouse farts. there's a problem-
> no oil/global warming/china coal- and a technology eg the electric
> bicycle that doesn't burn air on site, the design burns air at other
> removed sites.
> overall, is the removed burning more efficient?
Generally heat engines are more efficient the hotter you run them.
Anyway, a coal or oil power station is, last time I heard, roughly about
40% efficient and a car more like 30%. A wheezing two-stroke moped
probably less. The human body about 25%.
Obviously cars need so much fuel because they're huge and heavy compared
to bikes, even if the engine might be slightly more efficient.
But you can use nuclear power to make the electricity for the electric
bike, or in other pipe dreams, wind power, etc.
My supposition is you could make an efficient "pulse and glide" IC
engine for a bicycle sized vehicle, perhaps with electric hybrid, that
would do an mpg somewhere in the thousands-- a gallon of rapeseed oil
would last a year's commuting. More fuel efficient than cooking your
chips in the oil and riding a bike.
But the will to make such vehicles isn't there with fuel still quite
cheap. It's simple economics, and yes a "green sticker" is worth a bit
extra these days, but not a lot of $$ to most people.
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Date: 08 May 2007 18:39:14
From: datakoll@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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>
> NO niche in your nab? No $7000 hi rollers? WELL WHAT WE NEED IS THE
> WIZARD OF OZ TO STEP IN AND LEGISLATE DUDE!
> WE NEED A VELO LANE! WE NEED TO GOVERN CONDEM AND BULLDOZE FROM POINT
> A TO POINT C. WE NEED NEW VELO CLASS INSURANCE REGS.
>
> REMEMBER THE HODAKA! CHARGE!
DAMN RIGHT!
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Date: 08 May 2007 14:50:50
From: datakoll@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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Geewhiz datakoll, thanks for the electrick bike story and a really
neat new in depth method of thinking about the graphical quagmire from
$4 gas/insurance-tags/ER! I was up until 2AM translating the formula
from math to lucid thought.
Hey! Noooo problem. I'm getting over the headache cawsed from sorting
out the whazzit just now and fersure a $7000 dirt bike is the cure
like all my friends who are healthy but have trouble walking would
jump at the chance let go of the whazzit's sledgeway's shovel handle
and leap onto a $7000 electrick walmart dirt bike for a quick ride
thru their nabs cow pasture.
OUTASIGHT! $2000 more than a complete Volvo or Chevy pickup rebuild is
reasonable. And think think how much more reliable the electrick bike
will be once yawl get it covered with cow manure, buckshot pellets, an
trespass warning notices.
Hey we're talkin niche here! Sweeping pathways populated by economics
professors scooting hither and yon across vast leafy campuses, new
deal concrete ramps, vast open spaces untrammeled by the grate
unwashed goin flat out to nowhere.
NO niche in your nab? No $7000 hi rollers? WELL WHAT WE NEED IS THE
WIZARD OF OZ TO STEP IN AND LEGISLATE DUDE!
WE NEED A VELO LANE! WE NEED TO GOVERN CONDEM AND BULLDOZE FROM POINT
A TO POINT C. WE NEED NEW VELO CLASS INSURANCE REGS.
REMEMBER THE HODAKA! CHARGE!
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Date: 08 May 2007 20:56:29
From: DougC
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
|
datakoll@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Geewhiz datakoll, thanks for the electrick bike story and a really
> neat new in depth method of thinking about the graphical quagmire from
> $4 gas/insurance-tags/ER! I was up until 2AM translating the formula
> from math to lucid thought.
>
>
Yea... ...Anyway, back to me...
After studying the situation, I am firmly convinced that anyplace that
only allows motorized bicycles with *electric* propulsion is a place
that is determined to keep motorized bicycles in any form from becoming
any sort of practical transportation.
If you compare the purchasing costs, operating costs and useful ranges
of electrics vs. a 4-cycle gasoline engine, you'll be pretty well
convinced too.
The only pro-electric argument that eco-electric-bikers have left is
that even a small 4-cycle engine puts out exhaust--but when catalytic
converters become available for these tiny engines, their emissions will
immediately be reduced by 80-90% (something on the order of mouse farts).
~
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Date: 09 May 2007 06:53:35
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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In article <JT90i.1140$gn1.953@newsfe04.lga >,
DougC <dcimper@norcom2000.com > wrote:
> datakoll@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > Geewhiz datakoll, thanks for the electrick bike story and a really
> > neat new in depth method of thinking about the graphical quagmire from
> > $4 gas/insurance-tags/ER! I was up until 2AM translating the formula
> > from math to lucid thought.
> >
> >
>
> Yea... ...Anyway, back to me...
>
> After studying the situation, I am firmly convinced that anyplace that
> only allows motorized bicycles with *electric* propulsion is a place
> that is determined to keep motorized bicycles in any form from becoming
> any sort of practical transportation.
>
> If you compare the purchasing costs, operating costs and useful ranges
> of electrics vs. a 4-cycle gasoline engine, you'll be pretty well
> convinced too.
>
> The only pro-electric argument that eco-electric-bikers have left is
> that even a small 4-cycle engine puts out exhaust--but when catalytic
> converters become available for these tiny engines, their emissions will
> immediately be reduced by 80-90% (something on the order of mouse farts).
As much as I love internal combustion, I have to point out that as far
as I know, most cats only get really good performance with closed-loop
injection systems driving them.
In virtually every jurisdiction I know of, a very good gas-powered
two-wheel commuter vehicle is available: it's called the scooter. They
work very well.
There's a lot to be said for the inobtrusiveness of electric power: no
noise, no fuss.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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Date: 09 May 2007 04:59:18
From: DougC
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> As much as I love internal combustion, I have to point out that as far
> as I know, most cats only get really good performance with closed-loop
> injection systems driving them.
I don't know what this will take, what it will achieve or what it will
require. I have been told that manufacturers will have to do it, as it
requires careful engineering to get the cat to run at the right
temperature. California is already requiring cats on certain types of
engines but when I searched online a while back for one for my bicycle
engine, there was no company retailing small-engine replacement
cat-mufflers or any info on how to properly install them on an engine
that didn't come with one originally.
> In virtually every jurisdiction I know of, a very good gas-powered
> two-wheel commuter vehicle is available: it's called the scooter. They
> work very well.
Yes but scooters qualify as motor vehicles, and so require licensing,
registration and insurance. If you're trying to save money (as well as
do the environment a favor), you're better off buying a motorized
bicycle that may require /none/ of those expensive things (in some
states) and probably gets better MPG besides (the best small-engined
4-cycle scooters I've read of got maybe 70 mpg; it's not unusual to see
200 mpg on a motorized bicycle).
>
> There's a lot to be said for the inobtrusiveness of electric power: no
> noise, no fuss.
>
Yea, unfortunately it costs more per mile to say it.
My own page on the matter:
http://tinyurl.com/ywrjrz
~
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Date: 09 May 2007 15:01:42
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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In article <mYg0i.2842$jb3.809@newsfe02.lga >,
DougC <dcimper@norcom2000.com > wrote:
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> >
> > As much as I love internal combustion, I have to point out that as far
> > as I know, most cats only get really good performance with closed-loop
> > injection systems driving them.
> I don't know what this will take, what it will achieve or what it will
> require. I have been told that manufacturers will have to do it, as it
> requires careful engineering to get the cat to run at the right
> temperature. California is already requiring cats on certain types of
> engines but when I searched online a while back for one for my bicycle
> engine, there was no company retailing small-engine replacement
> cat-mufflers or any info on how to properly install them on an engine
> that didn't come with one originally.
Typical low-emissions ICEs use electronically controlled fuel injection
and a couple of sensors (O2, some temperature stuff) to get the fuel
mixture just right at all times. I am not aware of any sub-50cc scooters
that are using this technology, though some larger motorcycles do. The
costs would not be trivial, and a bolt-on kit would be unlikely.
> > In virtually every jurisdiction I know of, a very good gas-powered
> > two-wheel commuter vehicle is available: it's called the scooter. They
> > work very well.
> Yes but scooters qualify as motor vehicles, and so require licensing,
> registration and insurance. If you're trying to save money (as well as
> do the environment a favor), you're better off buying a motorized
> bicycle that may require /none/ of those expensive things (in some
> states) and probably gets better MPG besides (the best small-engined
> 4-cycle scooters I've read of got maybe 70 mpg; it's not unusual to see
> 200 mpg on a motorized bicycle).
Well, and this is the crux of the matter: there's a reason gas-powered
bicycles require all of those expensive things: it's because they are
effectively scooters, or mopeds at best (depending on local legislation).
A motorized bicycle is going, absent other regulations, to be capable of
considerably greater speed than a lightweight electric bicycle. It will
also be heavier than a true bicycle, and will probably benefit,
safety-wise from having a better spec of brakes, maybe a bit of
suspension...whoops, scooter!
> > There's a lot to be said for the inobtrusiveness of electric power: no
> > noise, no fuss.
> >
> Yea, unfortunately it costs more per mile to say it.
> My own page on the matter:
> http://tinyurl.com/ywrjrz
Fair enough. But not actually true in practice.
What you're actually arguing is that a vehicle which is already defined
and regulated in most vehicle codes should no longer require insurance
or licensing, and I don't think that's the least bit likely to happen.
Moreover, I don't think, given the real performance differences, and
frankly, the noise, that you're going to be allowed to use bike
facilities on such a thing either.
BC is on the leading edge of the curve for legislation allowing small
electric motors on bikes. Even here, they are sharply limited in speed
and power if they are to be considered as bicycles, and not motor
scooters. The limitations are so strict that a fair number of "electric
bicycles" cheat the regulations, effectively obeying the speed
limitation (no electric assist over 32 km/h, I think), but ignoring the
rather low power output limit.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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Date: 07 May 2007 17:37:03
From: datakoll@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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itsa dog!! heads up!!
but here's the poop:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations
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Date: 08 May 2007 04:21:35
From: DougC
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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datakoll@yahoo.com wrote:
> itsa dog!! heads up!!
> but here's the poop:
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations
>
So the Segways are still diffusing then? Outside of occasional news
photos of polo meets in Redmond, I don't see too much about them anymore.
-----
What's a name for someone who consistently indulges in overpriced
impractical fads?
~
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Date: 08 May 2007 16:07:39
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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In article <1iX%h.259$Ej2.139@newsfe03.lga >,
DougC <dcimper@norcom2000.com > wrote:
> datakoll@yahoo.com wrote:
> > itsa dog!! heads up!!
> > but here's the poop:
> >
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations
> >
>
> So the Segways are still diffusing then? Outside of occasional news
> photos of polo meets in Redmond, I don't see too much about them anymore.
> -----
> What's a name for someone who consistently indulges in overpriced
> impractical fads?
> ~
"Triathlete"
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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Date: 07 May 2007 18:13:29
From: DougC
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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datakoll@yahoo.com wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/business/yourmoney/06bikes.html
>
Does this mean he's not using the $4000 Segway anymore?
~
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Date: 07 May 2007 14:21:03
From: datakoll@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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On May 7, 4:50 pm, "datak...@yahoo.com" <datak...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> there's a bicycle industry survey and analysis.
> to guess at the sales>population divided byhttp://www.hightechstrategies.com/profiles.html
> how good is the Opti?
> a call to colorado in the fall?
>
> living in Fort Myers, i saw ? 25 electrics and IC scooters over last 3
> years. all illlegal.
> asked law enforcement who said a room downtown held 50-100 for auction
> does the Opti have plates?
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
riders caught and confiscated mostly poor, mostly riding flat out in
town
the cognoscenti i know of were "givin warnings"
out in the burbs, riding flat as always out but nooooo enforcement
nada.
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Date: 07 May 2007 13:50:01
From: datakoll@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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there's a bicycle industry survey and analysis.
to guess at the sales >population divided by http://www.hightechstrategies.com/profiles.html
how good is the Opti?
a call to colorado in the fall?
living in Fort Myers, i saw ? 25 electrics and IC scooters over last 3
years. all illlegal.
asked law enforcement who said a room downtown held 50-100 for auction
does the Opti have plates?
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Date: 07 May 2007 08:03:39
From: Scott Gordo
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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On May 7, 10:31 am, "datak...@yahoo.com" <datak...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On May 7, 9:24 am, "datak...@yahoo.com" <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/business/yourmoney/06bikes.html
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Chasm
"Electric bikes, popular in Asia and Europe, have yet to gain much of
a following in the United States. The number sold here is in the tens
of thousands a year, compared with 10 million in a recent year in
China."
Really? Do those numbers seem unbelievable to anyone else?
/s
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Date: 07 May 2007 15:25:48
From: Marcus Coles
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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Scott Gordo wrote:
> On May 7, 10:31 am, "datak...@yahoo.com" <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On May 7, 9:24 am, "datak...@yahoo.com" <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/business/yourmoney/06bikes.html
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Chasm
>
> "Electric bikes, popular in Asia and Europe, have yet to gain much of
> a following in the United States. The number sold here is in the tens
> of thousands a year, compared with 10 million in a recent year in
> China."
>
> Really? Do those numbers seem unbelievable to anyone else?
>
> /s
>
They look like off the top of the head figures.
If one looks at them at face value based the market penetration is not
that great in China either. (Pop. 1.3 Billion)
Marcus
"In a recent internet study on a popular newsgroup it was found that
over 99% of participants owned bicycles and rode regularly."
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Date: 07 May 2007 07:31:10
From: datakoll@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: electric bicycles commuting
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On May 7, 9:24 am, "datak...@yahoo.com" <datak...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/business/yourmoney/06bikes.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Chasm
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