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Main
Date: 18 Sep 2007 18:19:35
From: dabac
Subject: high flange and 3X?
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Hi guys,
It appears that a fairly accepted opinion is that 4X can give yo
trouble with spoke overlap, so how about 3X on a high-flange hub?
Won't a wider flange influence spoke angles the same way as going to
higher number of crosses?
Or is this effect countered by the bigger distances between spok
holes?
Or am I missing something in the visualisation of the geometry
--
dabac
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Date: 20 Sep 2007 09:22:10
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: high flange and 3X?
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On Sep 19, 7:47 am, John Everett
<jevere...@sbcglobal.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.net > wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 05:31:08 -0700, "Qui si parla
>
>
>
>
>
> Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> >On Sep 18, 2:19 am, dabac <dabac.2x3...@no-
> >mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> >> Hi guys,
>
> >> It appears that a fairly accepted opinion is that 4X can give you
> >> trouble with spoke overlap, so how about 3X on a high-flange hub?
> >> Won't a wider flange influence spoke angles the same way as going to a
> >> higher number of crosses?
> >> Or is this effect countered by the bigger distances between spoke
> >> holes?
> >> Or am I missing something in the visualisation of the geometry?
>
> >> --
> >> dabac
>
> >Not really. Spokes don't overlap adjacent heads, closer than LF for
> >sure...just built a set of HF Campag onto Campag tubie rims..3 cross.
>
> To back up what Peter says (not that he needs it), I have two sets of
> 36 spoke HF wheels (a Normandy set, and a Nuovo Tipo set) I built
> 3-cross.
>
> BTW, a couple of weeks ago while on our annual trip to the Colorado
> Rockies I was wasting time in Jerry Siegel's shop in Idaho Springs
> waiting for the barber shop next door to open. We were discussing
> replacement rims for my touring bike, which is currently 36 spoke,
> 3-cross. Jerry recommended building 4-cross next time. While I
> probably won't follow his advice, at least one professional
> wheel-builder thinks 36 spoke, 4-cross is doable.
Gawd, this was done all the time 20+ years ago (at least on low or
standard (Phil) flange hubs). I still have a bunch of 308/310mm (?)
spokes sitting around after building a pair of 4X/36 hole on Weinmann
Concave rims aka boat anchors. They also lacked hooked sides and were
soon retired. I built several sets of Mod 58 4X/36 hole on Phil hubs
in the late 70s. The big claim was that 4X was more plush and
comfortable than 3x, which was harsh and for racing bikes. As if
anyone but the pea-princess could tell. I was ostracized for actually
building touring wheels 3X. I regained some cred by tying and
soldering -- now viewed as voo-doo by the Book. Whether it worked or
not, I used silver bearing solder, which made for old school wheel
bling-bling. Beats paying a mint for weird carbon spokes. -- Jay
Beattie.
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Date: 20 Sep 2007 05:31:57
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com
Subject: Re: high flange and 3X?
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On Sep 19, 8:47 am, John Everett
<jevere...@sbcglobal.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.net > wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 05:31:08 -0700, "Qui si parla
>
>
>
> Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> >On Sep 18, 2:19 am, dabac <dabac.2x3...@no-
> >mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> >> Hi guys,
>
> >> It appears that a fairly accepted opinion is that 4X can give you
> >> trouble with spoke overlap, so how about 3X on a high-flange hub?
> >> Won't a wider flange influence spoke angles the same way as going to a
> >> higher number of crosses?
> >> Or is this effect countered by the bigger distances between spoke
> >> holes?
> >> Or am I missing something in the visualisation of the geometry?
>
> >> --
> >> dabac
>
> >Not really. Spokes don't overlap adjacent heads, closer than LF for
> >sure...just built a set of HF Campag onto Campag tubie rims..3 cross.
>
> To back up what Peter says (not that he needs it), I have two sets of
> 36 spoke HF wheels (a Normandy set, and a Nuovo Tipo set) I built
> 3-cross.
>
> BTW, a couple of weeks ago while on our annual trip to the Colorado
> Rockies I was wasting time in Jerry Siegel's shop in Idaho Springs
> waiting for the barber shop next door to open. We were discussing
> replacement rims for my touring bike, which is currently 36 spoke,
> 3-cross. Jerry recommended building 4-cross next time. While I
> probably won't follow his advice, at least one professional
> wheel-builder thinks 36 spoke, 4-cross is doable.
>
> --
> jeverett3<AT>sbcglobal<DOT>net (John V. Everett)
Of course it's do-able but like 32 2 cross, it doesn't do anything to
make the wheel stronger plus there is that spoke over the adjacent
head thing. I don't go to 4 cross until 40h.
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 17:21:10
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: high flange and 3X?
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dabac wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> It appears that a fairly accepted opinion is that 4X can give you
> trouble with spoke overlap, so how about 3X on a high-flange hub?
> Won't a wider flange influence spoke angles the same way as going to a
> higher number of crosses?
> Or is this effect countered by the bigger distances between spoke
> holes?
> Or am I missing something in the visualisation of the geometry?
3x 32-hole high flange works just fine.
--
David L. Johnson
Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig...
You soon find out the pig likes it!
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 13:10:13
From: Nate Knutson
Subject: Re: high flange and 3X?
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On Sep 18, 2:19 am, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com > wrote:
> dabac wrote:
>
> But cross-three works fine for all 32 and 36 spoked wheels, high
> flanges or low. It's a safe bet.
that's really not a safe generalization at all. don't you own a
rohloff?
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 05:31:08
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com
Subject: Re: high flange and 3X?
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On Sep 18, 2:19 am, dabac <dabac.2x3...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com > wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> It appears that a fairly accepted opinion is that 4X can give you
> trouble with spoke overlap, so how about 3X on a high-flange hub?
> Won't a wider flange influence spoke angles the same way as going to a
> higher number of crosses?
> Or is this effect countered by the bigger distances between spoke
> holes?
> Or am I missing something in the visualisation of the geometry?
>
> --
> dabac
Not really. Spokes don't overlap adjacent heads, closer than LF for
sure...just built a set of HF Campag onto Campag tubie rims..3 cross.
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Date: 19 Sep 2007 14:47:58
From: John Everett
Subject: Re: high flange and 3X?
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On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 05:31:08 -0700, "Qui si parla
Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <peter@vecchios.com > wrote:
>On Sep 18, 2:19 am, dabac <dabac.2x3...@no-
>mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> It appears that a fairly accepted opinion is that 4X can give you
>> trouble with spoke overlap, so how about 3X on a high-flange hub?
>> Won't a wider flange influence spoke angles the same way as going to a
>> higher number of crosses?
>> Or is this effect countered by the bigger distances between spoke
>> holes?
>> Or am I missing something in the visualisation of the geometry?
>>
>> --
>> dabac
>
>Not really. Spokes don't overlap adjacent heads, closer than LF for
>sure...just built a set of HF Campag onto Campag tubie rims..3 cross.
To back up what Peter says (not that he needs it), I have two sets of
36 spoke HF wheels (a Normandy set, and a Nuovo Tipo set) I built
3-cross.
BTW, a couple of weeks ago while on our annual trip to the Colorado
Rockies I was wasting time in Jerry Siegel's shop in Idaho Springs
waiting for the barber shop next door to open. We were discussing
replacement rims for my touring bike, which is currently 36 spoke,
3-cross. Jerry recommended building 4-cross next time. While I
probably won't follow his advice, at least one professional
wheel-builder thinks 36 spoke, 4-cross is doable.
--
jeverett3<AT >sbcglobal<DOT>net (John V. Everett)
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 09:26:09
From: Joel Mayes
Subject: Re: high flange and 3X?
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On 2007-09-18, dabac <dabac.2x3kan@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com > wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
>
> It appears that a fairly accepted opinion is that 4X can give you
> trouble with spoke overlap, so how about 3X on a high-flange hub?
> Won't a wider flange influence spoke angles the same way as going to a
> higher number of crosses?
> Or is this effect countered by the bigger distances between spoke
> holes?
> Or am I missing something in the visualisation of the geometry?
I've had two hub rim combinations where 3X doesn't work in the past
month, one a high flange track hub on a DT R1.1 rims and the other a
Sturmey AW on a generic 550A rim.
Cheers
Joel
--
Human Powered Cycles
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 09:19:31
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: high flange and 3X?
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dabac wrote:
>
> It appears that a fairly accepted opinion is that 4X can give you
> trouble with spoke overlap, so how about 3X on a high-flange hub?
Cross-four lacing is inappropriate in all cases with less than 36
spokes. On a 32 spoke wheel, cross-four is beyond tangential,
actually cutting a chord across the hub flange.
36 spokes laced cross-four on a low flange overlap each other's
heads. On a high flange, 36 spokes laced cross-four are OK-- there's
no head overlap.
But cross-three works fine for all 32 and 36 spoked wheels, high
flanges or low. It's a safe bet.
Chalo
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 09:06:13
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: high flange and 3X?
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On Sep 18, 1:19 am, dabac <dabac.2x3...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com > wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> It appears that a fairly accepted opinion is that 4X can give you
> trouble with spoke overlap, so how about 3X on a high-flange hub?
> Won't a wider flange influence spoke angles the same way as going to a
> higher number of crosses?
> Or is this effect countered by the bigger distances between spoke
> holes?
> Or am I missing something in the visualisation of the geometry?
Wider flange doesn't change spoke angle nearly
as much as increasing the number of crosses.
Roughly, because the difference between low and
high flange hub radius is ~20 mm, while going to
4x moves the spoke end by 2 rim holes (about 105mm
on a 700c 36 hole rim).
Try playing with dimensions in a spoke calculator like
http://www.appliedthought.com/danny/Spoke/SpokeCalculator.html
For a typical 700c rim size, changing from low to
high flange 36 hole 3x changes spoke angle only from 64
to 68 degrees, while low flange 36 hole 4x is 84 deg.
Another angle on this problem is that about eight
bajillion bike boom bikes were built with 36 hole 3x
wheels on Normandy high flange hubs or the like,
and they didn't have any spoke crossing problems.
Some of these wheels are still in operation today
(I have a couple of them).
Ben
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 19:28:22
From: dabac
Subject: Re: high flange and 3X?
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bjw@mambo.ucolick.org Wrote:
>
> Wider flange doesn't change spoke angle nearly
> as much as increasing the number of crosses.
> Roughly, because the difference between low and
> high flange hub radius is ~20 mm, while going to
> 4x moves the spoke end by 2 rim holes (about 105mm
> on a 700c 36 hole rim).
>
> ..For a typical 700c rim size, changing from low to
> high flange 36 hole 3x changes spoke angle only from 64
> to 68 degrees, while low flange 36 hole 4x is 84 deg.
Thanks, I was sure of the direction of change, but I had no grasp of
the order of magnitude.
bjw@mambo.ucolick.org Wrote:
>
> Another angle on this problem is that about eight
> bajillion bike boom bikes were built with 36 hole 3x
> wheels on Normandy high flange hubs or the like,
> and they didn't have any spoke crossing problems.
Which although undobtedly true is of little help to someone who who
wouldn't recognize a Normandy hub in a wheel even if I fell over it...
--
dabac
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 01:32:10
From: Nate Knutson
Subject: Re: high flange and 3X?
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On Sep 18, 1:19 am, dabac <dabac.2x3...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com > wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> It appears that a fairly accepted opinion is that 4X can give you
> trouble with spoke overlap, so how about 3X on a high-flange hub?
> Won't a wider flange influence spoke angles the same way as going to a
> higher number of crosses?
> Or is this effect countered by the bigger distances between spoke
> holes?
> Or am I missing something in the visualisation of the geometry?
>
> --
> dabac
the threads in question were with regard to 4x on 36h wheels
specifically.
it's not a question of opinion; 4x on 36h wheels gives overlap with
many common flange diameters and wheel sizes. it just does.
download the shareware program wheelcalc to see how it all plays out.
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 19:18:31
From: dabac
Subject: Re: high flange and 3X?
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Nate Knutson Wrote:
> ..it's not a question of opinion; 4x on 36h wheels gives overlap wit
> many common flange diameters and wheel sizes. it just does.
I'm not questioning that, I just suspected that if I stated it as
fact I'd get a lot of replies about which combos that actually did wor
anyhow, which isn't of current interest to me.
Nate Knutson Wrote:
> ..download the shareware program wheelcalc to see how it all plays out.
Firewall settings doesn't allow that, but I can see that the spok
pattern exlorer would have answered my question whether 3X would carry
risk of overlap on high flange hubs or not
--
dabac
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