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Main
Date: 01 Sep 2007 11:06:34
From:
Subject: minnesota bicyclists arrested
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http://www.startribune.com/crime/story/1396202.html
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Date: 05 Sep 2007 00:45:42
From: landotter
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
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On Sep 4, 6:48 pm, Paul Myron Hobson <phob...@gatech.edu > wrote:
> Chalo wrote:
> > All of us have to do a lot of unnecessary waiting for car traffic, by
> > design. If once a month, a handful of car drivers have to do a bit of
> > unnecessary waiting for us, so much the better. How else are we to
> > make our point (in a way that will actually be heard, that is)?
>
> I tell the folks in ATL (who *only* ride CM -- as it is a bumpin' social
> event), that if they want to let drivers know that cars are traffic,
> ride to work, every single day.
>
> They snarl traffic downtown, corking intersections, using nothing more
> than an artificially elated "Happy Friday" to justify it to the other
> traffic stopped at green lights.
>
> Come Monday: on whom do downtown ATL drivers take out their
> frustrations...me and all the other commuters who use bikes for more
> than a means to get laid.
Ah, yes, a seat tube man, through and through!
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Date: 02 Sep 2007 16:05:17
From: dustoyevsky@mac.com
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
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On Sep 2, 2:23 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com > wrote:
> There are
> plenty of cyclists who express their rejection of car culture through
> open disregard for traffic laws pretty much all the time.
That's the excuse for scapegoating of cyclists by MV operators (on the
road or in letters to the editor <g >): "they don't obey the law!!!
So, IMHO it's a good idea to obey the law at least as far as those in
MV's do-- IOW, if they roll a stop sign, it's me next, doing the same
thing. Happens all the time, me plus 1-3 or more MV's going through a
four-way stop, we all roll it. But slowly, taking turns, etc. etc. On
the same basis, I've been waved through stops by potential "arresting
officers". The difference is demonstrating control and ability to
actually stop before entering the intersection. A far different thing
from blowing lights or signs.
> Massers, in
> my observation, aren't like that. They "go along to get along" the
> rest of the month, because they understand that their objections are
> better recognized through collective action. I think that in a lot of
> cities, CM has brought discussion of road-sharing issues out into the
> open when they otherwise would have been ignored.
My experience with CM in Austin was quite different. The CM ride was
turning right (29th and Guadalupe, since you know Austin) on their way
back to their campus starting point. One asshole saw I intended to
turn left, and just in time to stop me, jammed over an blocked my
legal right of progress at a green light until the entire Mad Max--
Thunderdome crowd (complete with chariot) passed, and then joined in,
making me sit through another red light. Big smirk when he pulled the
move, while some asswipe in a car behind (no doubt one the the MV
drivers who was going to give a few of the poor tired protesters a
ride home after the ride), saw what was going on, made a point to honk
and cheer, gesticulate, etc. just to piss me off. All very obvious.
Critical Mass got a real bad rep in Austin, and very well deserved. It
was all about "getting even" with the bad drivers. Which just doesn't
happen on the road or on the playground, either.
Oh yeah, I was driving a funky old compact car (Dodge Omni) with a
bike rack on the roof. And, as if it would make any difference, my
daughter, about 2 years old at the time, was in a kid seat in the
middle, rear. Very obvious.
I know there was at least one famous incident where a jeep driver hit
a CM'er or two. The few times I saw CM riding, I saw only a remarkable
patience exhibited by MV drivers-- while rush hour traffic on one of
the busiest central roads was deliberately blocked (Lamar Blvd. is the
one I remember as the worst).
> Acquiescence is consent. Just be glad that others are not as
> acquiescent as you are.
This is one place I strongly disagree with you. It can be done a whole
lot smarter and more effectively.
Today I rode in my new "neighborhood" for the first time (Barton Creek
off SW Parkway). Three lanes total, center lane for turns, either
direction on a winding, hilly road. Surprisingly busy for Sunday
morning (there are at least two churches on the road, I believe). I
was passed by maybe 20 cars, maybe more. I waved to almost every
single one of them in thanks as they gave me a good Old Austin pass--
way over from way behind, lots of room in front, too, no racing motors
either, let alone nasty honking. Saw some other riders, none waving as
they were also treated courteously, plus. We all know that at least
some "church traffic" is the most dangerous there is <g >, I'll remind.
I've had other regular routes in a few other neighborhoods here (incl
Round Rock <g >) (bedroom community nearby), where cooperating and
being friendly (while occasionally being forceful about standing up
for my right to my space) have cultivated good relations with other
"regulars"-- moving over to give a little extra passing room when
safe, waving passers around corners they can't see around (very
carefully, of course), and so forth-- and whaddya know, I start
getting cut a lot of extra slack, also waves and friendly honks as
folks drive by (no, not all of them, this ain't the Good Ship
Lollipop). That's "going along to get along", as opposed to being a
prick like the guy who blocked me because he was pretty sure he could
get away with it. It was a moment of temptation, I'll admit. "Not
worth getting in trouble for", but please! give me a break on CM, as I
saw it in Austin, fostering improved bike-driver relationships.
And the ducking of responsibility, too-- "CM has no leaders, it just
occurs". Yeah, complete with publicity that just falls out of the sky
somehow. What chickenshits.
Ride your bike, act like an adult, protect yourself at all times.
Break the us/them dichotomy with a little appropriate respect, let the
assholes go find another asshole to fight with. In general, of course!
Outta electrons, thanks. --D-y
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Date: 03 Sep 2007 13:11:22
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
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In article
<1188774317.817389.220010@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com >,
"dustoyevsky@mac.com" <dustoyevsky@mac.com > wrote:
> moving over to give a little extra passing room when
> safe, waving passers around corners they can't see around (very
> carefully, of course), and so forth--
I do that. It is a win-win situation. Drivers remember
positive interactions with bicyclist. Most people want
to get along.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 03 Sep 2007 00:45:13
From: !Jones
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
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On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 16:05:17 -0700, in rec.bicycles.tech
"dustoyevsky@mac.com" <dustoyevsky@mac.com > wrote:
>>CM has brought discussion of road-sharing issues out into the
>> open when they otherwise would have been ignored.
>
>My experience with CM in Austin was quite different.
My only real observations were also in Austin, TX; all of them I saw
were contentious acts. Had I been driving, it would have been a
serious temptation to commit vehicular assault. I will assure you
that they brought no "discussion of road-sharing issues out into the
open".
I would be willing to bet that, if there were funding to study it,
we'd find that aggressive acts by MVs actually increase following a CM
action. You'd need an operational definition of "aggressive act" and
a consistent way to count them... volunteers logging into a web page
might work. Anybody writing a dissertation? There's a topic!
Jones
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Date: 02 Sep 2007 15:54:00
From: Gary Young
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
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On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 19:23:29 +0000, Chalo wrote:
> On Sep 2, 5:18 am, !Jones <p...@off.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 06:49:34 -0000, in rec.bicycles.techChalo
>>
>> <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >How else are we to
>> >make our point (in a way that will actually be heard, that is)?
>>
>> When you're on the road, regardless of what you happen to be
>> operating, observe the traffic laws and be considerate of others. I
>> learned *that* in grade school. Realize that the fact that some
>> people did not get it then does not excuse rude or boorish behavior on
>> your part (generic second person).
>
> Yeah, that approach worked great for the labor movement, the abolition
> movement, women's suffrage, the civil rights movement, etc.
>
> Critical Mass happens just once a month, so that the folks involved
> don't have to air their grievances that way every day. There are
> plenty of cyclists who express their rejection of car culture through
> open disregard for traffic laws pretty much all the time. Massers, in
> my observation, aren't like that. They "go along to get along" the
> rest of the month, because they understand that their objections are
> better recognized through collective action. I think that in a lot of
> cities, CM has brought discussion of road-sharing issues out into the
> open when they otherwise would have been ignored.
>
> Acquiescence is consent. Just be glad that others are not as
> acquiescent as you are.
>
> Chalo
For many years, the NYPD and Critical Mass had accommodated each other,
albeit with some friction at the margins. That changed when the Republican
National Convention came to town and the Manhattan NYPD (though not the
Brooklyn NYPD, oddly enough) decided that Critical Mass had to go. It
hardly surprises me that these arrests were in connection with a protest
of the Republican National Convention coming to Minnesota. Granted, at
this point I have no more than suspicions, but I think there is good
reason to be suspicious.
Now that I've broken my vow to stay on topic, I'm off to say some Hail
Mary's.
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Date: 02 Sep 2007 19:23:29
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
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On Sep 2, 5:18 am, !Jones <p...@off.com > wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 06:49:34 -0000, in rec.bicycles.techChalo
>
> <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >How else are we to
> >make our point (in a way that will actually be heard, that is)?
>
> When you're on the road, regardless of what you happen to be
> operating, observe the traffic laws and be considerate of others. I
> learned *that* in grade school. Realize that the fact that some
> people did not get it then does not excuse rude or boorish behavior on
> your part (generic second person).
Yeah, that approach worked great for the labor movement, the abolition
movement, women's suffrage, the civil rights movement, etc.
Critical Mass happens just once a month, so that the folks involved
don't have to air their grievances that way every day. There are
plenty of cyclists who express their rejection of car culture through
open disregard for traffic laws pretty much all the time. Massers, in
my observation, aren't like that. They "go along to get along" the
rest of the month, because they understand that their objections are
better recognized through collective action. I think that in a lot of
cities, CM has brought discussion of road-sharing issues out into the
open when they otherwise would have been ignored.
Acquiescence is consent. Just be glad that others are not as
acquiescent as you are.
Chalo
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Date: 02 Sep 2007 17:09:21
From: !Jones
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
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On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 19:23:29 -0000, in rec.bicycles.tech Chalo
<chalo.colina@gmail.com > wrote:
>Critical Mass happens just once a month, so that the folks involved
>don't have to air their grievances that way every day. There are
>plenty of cyclists who express their rejection of car culture through
>open disregard for traffic laws pretty much all the time.
Well, let's see if I have this straight: your objective is to air one
or more grievances. Assumably, the grievance goes to rude people on
the road who disregard the traffic laws and endanger others; am I
close? I would guess that the objective is also to change drivers'
behavior.
So, to this end, you propose that a group of cyclists deliberately
enter the road to be rude and disregard traffic laws? That sounds
like fucking for chastity to me. And I'm sure that the auto drivers,
when they finally get through it, are all saying, "Boy, those
bicyclists really showed *me*! I'm just going to have to pound my SUV
into a plowshare and get a bicycle!"
Try reading alt.rec.hiking for an eye opener! Would you like to read
what serious hikers think of cyclists? There was a long thread the
other day about how to set your hiking staff to impale an aggressive
cyclist. If you read the motorcycle groups, it's the same old shit...
we're all fucking *victims*.
If you want to shit on people because you're a victim, then I can't
stop you... but don't expect any sympathy.
Jones
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Date: 02 Sep 2007 23:12:56
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
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There are three sides to every story:
http://twincities.indymedia.org/newswire/display/31148/index.php
There are multiple YouTube videos of the event, but the three I watched
added nothing to my understanding of the situation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nVMMeMq6xQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_PpgVUraQQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aUS4EQULBY
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Date: 02 Sep 2007 06:42:55
From: landotter
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
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On Sep 1, 6:32 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com > wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 18:10:27 -0500, Tim McNamara
>
> <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> >Being nasty is not a crime. Being self-righteous is not a crime. Being
> >a "trustafarian" (which IME is not who is showing up at Critical Mass
> >rides- they are usually the ones in the SUVs with a cell phone and a Red
> >Bull and the subwoofer cranked up blasting out rap to show that they are
> >down with the brothers, fuming while they have to wait for the
> >procession of mere cyclists) is not a crime although it frequently leads
> >to poor taste and self-indulgence.
>
> >Violence is a crime. Attacking a police officer or interfering with an
> >arrest is a crime. For that, an arrest and possible prosecution is
> >appropriate. 48 officers were involved in the arrest of 19 individuals
> >on "suspicion of rioting" charges, a gross misdemeanor:
>
> Also quoting from the article:
>
> [quote] "We've never had a problem with Critical Mass, the rally," she
> said. "We agree with them that we need to lessen our dependence on the
> automobile. Apparently, they had some infiltrators or outsiders who
> joined the rally tonight. And these outsiders were trying to provoke
> the officers."
>
> The adults were arrested on suspicion of rioting, a gross
> misdemeanor.[/quote]
>
> I have no problem with the notion of an adult assaulting a police
> officer being arre4sted and prosecuted. The misdemeanor riot charge
> is a gift.
Yup.
I'm NO fan of cops, mind, I'm one of those folks that believe that
this country is teetering on the precipice of fascism--but smug civil
disorder is not the answer. Stopping traffic with a protest for equal
rights for the races might very well be the appropriate thing to do to
gain attention for a human rights issue--I'd extend that to shutting
down a city center non-violently for equal rights for gays--but
deliberately snarling traffic with bicycles is absurd, and serves no
purpose other than to enrage, inconvenience, and to inflate the
righteousness of the trustafarians. I'm saying that as a guy that
rides far more than he drives. I'm not for randomly jailing folks by
any means--but if you create civil disorder, you need to be detained.
Hopefully the cops will give you a soda and a vegan cutlet while
you're cooling down.
Do think about purchasing a tactical length Mossberg shotgun do defend
against a future police state:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G63FEamhpA0&mode=related&search=
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Date: 02 Sep 2007 09:31:38
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
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In article <1188740575.796918.84900@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com >,
landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote:
> I'm one of those folks that believe that this country is teetering on
> the precipice of fascism--
It's not so much a precipice as a downhill slide; the past 27 years have
put us further and further down that slope and the past 7 years in
particular. Fascists always claim that they are protecting the values
of the society, it's the smokescreen to confuse the naive and those who
believe they are threatened by change and buys time to consolidate power.
> but smug civil disorder is not the answer.
Civil disobedience, not civil disorder. Critical Mass is supposed to be
an example of civil disobedience (but often misses the mark).
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Date: 02 Sep 2007 05:32:02
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
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On Sep 1, 11:06 am, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> http://www.startribune.com/crime/story/1396202.html
How about-'protesters who were riding bicycles got arrested'..it was
about civil disobedience, not riding a bike.
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Date: 02 Sep 2007 12:40:07
From: !Jones
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
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On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 05:32:02 -0700, in rec.bicycles.tech "Qui si parla
Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <peter@vecchios.com > wrote:
>On Sep 1, 11:06 am, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>> http://www.startribune.com/crime/story/1396202.html
>
>How about-'protesters who were riding bicycles got arrested'..it was
>about civil disobedience, not riding a bike.
Agree. "Protesters Arrested" and leave it there. Cycles had nothing
to do with it.
Jones
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Date: 02 Sep 2007 06:49:34
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
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!Jones wrote:
>
> My wife and I were riding in Austin, TX when a CM ride passed us. We
> dismounted our tandem and walked. And I *agree* with CM's position...
> but I will not be associated in any way with their behavior.
But you'll drive in freeway traffic, I guess. Behavior
notwithstanding.
If you've never ridden in a Critical Mass, you're missing out. It's
fun. It's wholesome. (If it ain't fun, it ain't a proper Mass.)
All of us have to do a lot of unnecessary waiting for car traffic, by
design. If once a month, a handful of car drivers have to do a bit of
unnecessary waiting for us, so much the better. How else are we to
make our point (in a way that will actually be heard, that is)?
Chalo
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Date: 04 Sep 2007 19:48:51
From: Paul Myron Hobson
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
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Chalo wrote:
> All of us have to do a lot of unnecessary waiting for car traffic, by
> design. If once a month, a handful of car drivers have to do a bit of
> unnecessary waiting for us, so much the better. How else are we to
> make our point (in a way that will actually be heard, that is)?
I tell the folks in ATL (who *only* ride CM -- as it is a bumpin' social
event), that if they want to let drivers know that cars are traffic,
ride to work, every single day.
They snarl traffic downtown, corking intersections, using nothing more
than an artificially elated "Happy Friday" to justify it to the other
traffic stopped at green lights.
Come Monday: on whom do downtown ATL drivers take out their
frustrations...me and all the other commuters who use bikes for more
than a means to get laid.
\\paul
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Date: 02 Sep 2007 05:18:15
From: !Jones
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
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On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 06:49:34 -0000, in rec.bicycles.tech Chalo
<chalo.colina@gmail.com > wrote:
>How else are we to
>make our point (in a way that will actually be heard, that is)?
When you're on the road, regardless of what you happen to be
operating, observe the traffic laws and be considerate of others. I
learned *that* in grade school. Realize that the fact that some
people did not get it then does not excuse rude or boorish behavior on
your part (generic second person).
You won't be heard; however you will make a difference! By refusing
to be a jerk, you will insure that there will be one fewer jerk on the
road. I find that it helps my attitude to know that, today at least,
I was not a part of the madness... and CM is.
Jones
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Date: 01 Sep 2007 21:06:50
From: velodancer
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
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On Sep 1, 6:08 pm, "Leo Lichtman" <l.licht...@worldnet.att.net > wrote:
> I have very little use for Critical Mass, because their actions are
> calculated to create inconvenience,
Protests that cause no inconvenience have zero effect. Civil
disobedience is just that. In the case of Critical Mass rides, there
is very little inconvenience relative to what happened in the '60s. In
larger cities, they have a police escort for public safety. Hard to
see how that is more inconvenient than streets closed off for a
marathon or bike race.
I think the protest message that Critical Mass is trying to impart is
the difficulty and inequity that bicycles have commuting in cities
versus cars. Amazing that even posters here find that small
inconvenience offensive!
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Date: 01 Sep 2007 20:22:36
From: landotter
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
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On Sep 1, 3:04 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net > wrote:
> In article <huajd3den93ajp8c29vb3i9fcn8r96j...@4ax.com>,
>
> !Jones <p...@off.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 11:06:34 -0600, in rec.bicycles.tech
> > carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>
> > >http://www.startribune.com/crime/story/1396202.html
>
> > A friend there said they were "Critical Mass"; I thought that bunch
> > was defunct.
>
> Critical Mass rides happen monthly in dozens of cities. Far from
> defunct.
>
> > Put 'em under the jail, I say!
>
> While I have doubts about the efficacy of Critical Mass rides in
> reducing the car culture, that seems a bit harsh to me.
The two Critical Mass rides I tried up in Chicago were the nastiest
cycling events I've ever experienced. If they behaved anything like
those self righteous, and often violent trustafarians--I'm also for
letting them cool their heels in jail. Some of these kids need a
reality check.
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Date: 01 Sep 2007 20:00:35
From: !Jones
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
|
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 20:22:36 -0000, in rec.bicycles.tech landotter
<landotter@gmail.com > wrote:
>The two Critical Mass rides I tried up in Chicago were the nastiest
>cycling events I've ever experienced. If they behaved anything like
>those self righteous, and often violent trustafarians--I'm also for
>letting them cool their heels in jail. Some of these kids need a
>reality check.
My wife and I were riding in Austin, TX when a CM ride passed us. We
dismounted our tandem and walked. And I *agree* with CM's position...
but I will not be associated in any way with their behavior.
Jones
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Date: 01 Sep 2007 18:10:27
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
|
In article <1188678156.367305.138600@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com >,
landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Sep 1, 3:04 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > In article <huajd3den93ajp8c29vb3i9fcn8r96j...@4ax.com>,
> >
> > !Jones <p...@off.com> wrote:
> > > On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 11:06:34 -0600, in rec.bicycles.tech
> > > carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> >
> > > >http://www.startribune.com/crime/story/1396202.html
> >
> > > A friend there said they were "Critical Mass"; I thought that
> > > bunch was defunct.
> >
> > Critical Mass rides happen monthly in dozens of cities. Far from
> > defunct.
> >
> > > Put 'em under the jail, I say!
> >
> > While I have doubts about the efficacy of Critical Mass rides in
> > reducing the car culture, that seems a bit harsh to me.
>
> The two Critical Mass rides I tried up in Chicago were the nastiest
> cycling events I've ever experienced. If they behaved anything like
> those self righteous, and often violent trustafarians--I'm also for
> letting them cool their heels in jail. Some of these kids need a
> reality check.
Being nasty is not a crime. Being self-righteous is not a crime. Being
a "trustafarian" (which IME is not who is showing up at Critical Mass
rides- they are usually the ones in the SUVs with a cell phone and a Red
Bull and the subwoofer cranked up blasting out rap to show that they are
down with the brothers, fuming while they have to wait for the
procession of mere cyclists) is not a crime although it frequently leads
to poor taste and self-indulgence.
Violence is a crime. Attacking a police officer or interfering with an
arrest is a crime. For that, an arrest and possible prosecution is
appropriate. 48 officers were involved in the arrest of 19 individuals
on "suspicion of rioting" charges, a gross misdemeanor:
"Subdivision 1. Riot first degree. When three or more persons assembled
disturb the public peace by an intentional act or threat of unlawful
force or violence to person or property and a death results, and one of
the persons is armed with a dangerous weapon, that person is guilty of
riot first degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more
than 20 years or to payment of a fine of not more than $35,000, or
both.
"Subd. 2. Riot second degree. When three or more persons assembled
disturb the public peace by an intentional act or threat of unlawful
force or violence to person or property, each participant who is armed
with a dangerous weapon or knows that any other participant is armed
with a dangerous weapon is guilty of riot second degree and may be
sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or to payment of
a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.
"Subd. 3. Riot third degree. When three or more persons assembled
disturb the public peace by an intentional act or threat of unlawful
force or violence to person or property, each participant therein is
guilty of riot third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for
not more than one year or to payment of a fine of not more than $1,000,
or both."
If convicted, it could be an expensive Friday evening bike ride. That
might be something of a reality check for them.
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Date: 01 Sep 2007 19:32:13
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
|
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 18:10:27 -0500, Tim McNamara
<timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote:
>
>Being nasty is not a crime. Being self-righteous is not a crime. Being
>a "trustafarian" (which IME is not who is showing up at Critical Mass
>rides- they are usually the ones in the SUVs with a cell phone and a Red
>Bull and the subwoofer cranked up blasting out rap to show that they are
>down with the brothers, fuming while they have to wait for the
>procession of mere cyclists) is not a crime although it frequently leads
>to poor taste and self-indulgence.
>
>Violence is a crime. Attacking a police officer or interfering with an
>arrest is a crime. For that, an arrest and possible prosecution is
>appropriate. 48 officers were involved in the arrest of 19 individuals
>on "suspicion of rioting" charges, a gross misdemeanor:
>
Also quoting from the article:
[quote] "We've never had a problem with Critical Mass, the rally," she
said. "We agree with them that we need to lessen our dependence on the
automobile. Apparently, they had some infiltrators or outsiders who
joined the rally tonight. And these outsiders were trying to provoke
the officers."
The adults were arrested on suspicion of rioting, a gross
misdemeanor.[/quote]
I have no problem with the notion of an adult assaulting a police
officer being arre4sted and prosecuted. The misdemeanor riot charge
is a gift.
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| | | | |
Date: 02 Sep 2007 12:38:24
From: !Jones
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
|
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 19:32:13 -0400, in rec.bicycles.tech Doug Taylor
<dtaylor@dreamscape.com > wrote:
>[quote] "We've never had a problem with Critical Mass, the rally," she
>said. "We agree with them that we need to lessen our dependence on the
>automobile. Apparently, they had some infiltrators or outsiders who
>joined the rally tonight. And these outsiders were trying to provoke
>the officers."
I didn't know CM had formal "membership", per se. Yup; according to
http://www.critical-mass.org/ (which is probably as valid information
as one can get), "Critical Mass is not an organization, it's an
unorganized coincidence..." So, my question is: how does an outsider
infiltrate an unorganized coincidence? It's nonsense!
As I recall, every CM "coincidence" I have witnessed usually included
a couple of fist fights and some arrests... and the one I saw was
between two cyclists because one got in the other's way. My favorite
part was watching the riders hoist their bikes into their pick-up
trucks after the ride... I did get a belly laugh out of that!
>The adults were arrested on suspicion of rioting, a gross
>misdemeanor.[/quote]
"Suspicion of rioting", huh? I like that almost as much as the
riders' pick-up trucks.
Essentially, I would agree with CM. Philosophically, I agree with
Timothy McVeigh... or did before he was strapped to the gurney. There
are lots of things wrong with our society and, many times, I feel like
acting... and this probably involves sustained automatic weapons fire.
I don't *do* that because such behavior carries severe penalties. I
am fully in favor of allowing the people who choose to participate in
a CM "coincidence" and subsequently violate the law in any way to
suffer the consequences thereof.
Jones
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| |
Date: 01 Sep 2007 13:15:40
From: !Jones
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
|
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 11:06:34 -0600, in rec.bicycles.tech
carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>http://www.startribune.com/crime/story/1396202.html
A friend there said they were "Critical Mass"; I thought that bunch
was defunct.
Put 'em under the jail, I say!
Jones
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Date: 01 Sep 2007 15:04:19
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
|
In article <huajd3den93ajp8c29vb3i9fcn8r96jnnp@4ax.com >,
!Jones <piss@off.com > wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 11:06:34 -0600, in rec.bicycles.tech
> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>
> >http://www.startribune.com/crime/story/1396202.html
>
> A friend there said they were "Critical Mass"; I thought that bunch
> was defunct.
Critical Mass rides happen monthly in dozens of cities. Far from
defunct.
> Put 'em under the jail, I say!
While I have doubts about the efficacy of Critical Mass rides in
reducing the car culture, that seems a bit harsh to me.
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Date: 01 Sep 2007 19:57:50
From: !Jones
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
|
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 15:04:19 -0500, in rec.bicycles.tech Tim McNamara
<timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote:
>In article <huajd3den93ajp8c29vb3i9fcn8r96jnnp@4ax.com>,
> !Jones <piss@off.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 11:06:34 -0600, in rec.bicycles.tech
>> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>>
>> >http://www.startribune.com/crime/story/1396202.html
>>
>> A friend there said they were "Critical Mass"; I thought that bunch
>> was defunct.
>
>Critical Mass rides happen monthly in dozens of cities. Far from
>defunct.
>
>> Put 'em under the jail, I say!
>
>While I have doubts about the efficacy of Critical Mass rides in
>reducing the car culture, that seems a bit harsh to me.
Well, essentially Critical Mass (CM) is what's wrong with our social
fabric. It's not about bicycles, it's about civil behavior... the
fact that I believe myself to be a victim does not allow me to
infringe the rights of others. When a CM rider runs a red light and
causes a driver with a clear right of way to slam on his or her
brakes, then the cyclist is wrong.
How did Pogo put it back in '70? "We have met the enemy and he is
us." It's an identical mentality... the only difference is the number
of wheels your vehicle has on the ground, which, IMO, is irrelevant.
Jones... who remains unconvinced but is still listening.
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| | | | |
Date: 02 Sep 2007 04:57:25
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
|
In article
<702kd3l8ds4rpehq4hpil12t1t18njc7k2@4ax.com >,
!Jones <piss@off.com > wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 15:04:19 -0500, in rec.bicycles.tech Tim McNamara
> <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> >In article <huajd3den93ajp8c29vb3i9fcn8r96jnnp@4ax.com>,
> > !Jones <piss@off.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 11:06:34 -0600, in rec.bicycles.tech
> >> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> >>
> >> >http://www.startribune.com/crime/story/1396202.html
> >>
> >> A friend there said they were "Critical Mass"; I thought that bunch
> >> was defunct.
> >
> >Critical Mass rides happen monthly in dozens of cities. Far from
> >defunct.
> >
> >> Put 'em under the jail, I say!
> >
> >While I have doubts about the efficacy of Critical Mass rides in
> >reducing the car culture, that seems a bit harsh to me.
>
> Well, essentially Critical Mass (CM) is what's wrong with our social
> fabric. It's not about bicycles, it's about civil behavior... the
> fact that I believe myself to be a victim does not allow me to
> infringe the rights of others. When a CM rider runs a red light and
> causes a driver with a clear right of way to slam on his or her
> brakes, then the cyclist is wrong.
>
> How did Pogo put it back in '70? "We have met the enemy and he is
> us." It's an identical mentality... the only difference is the number
> of wheels your vehicle has on the ground, which, IMO, is irrelevant.
No, not the 1970's. Walt Kelly drew and wrote Pogo.
----------------
Deck us all with Boston Charlie,
Walla Walla, Wash., an' Kalamazoo!
Nora's freezin' on the trolley,
Swaller dollar cauliflower alley-garoo!
Don't we know archaic barrel,
Lullaby Lilla boy, Louisville Lou?
Trolley Molly don't love Harold,
Boola boola Pensacoola hullabaloo!
Bark us all bow-wows of folly,
Polly wolly cracker n' too-da-loo!
Hunky Dory's pop is lolly gaggin' on the wagon,
Willy, folly go through!
Donkey Bonny brays a carol,
Antelope Cantaloup, 'lope with you!
Chollie's collie barks at Barrow,
Harum scarum five alarum bung-a-loo!
----------------
I think I know what happened to Gene Daniels.
--
Michael Press
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| | | | | |
Date: 02 Sep 2007 21:25:28
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
|
>>>> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>>>>> http://www.startribune.com/crime/story/1396202.html
>>> !Jones <piss@off.com> wrote:
>>>> A friend there said they were "Critical Mass"; I thought that bunch
>>>> was defunct.
>> Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>>> Critical Mass rides happen monthly in dozens of cities. Far from
>>> defunct.
>>> !Jones <piss@off.com> wrote:
>>>> Put 'em under the jail, I say!
>> Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>>> While I have doubts about the efficacy of Critical Mass rides in
>>> reducing the car culture, that seems a bit harsh to me.
> !Jones <piss@off.com> wrote:
>> Well, essentially Critical Mass (CM) is what's wrong with our social
>> fabric. It's not about bicycles, it's about civil behavior... the
>> fact that I believe myself to be a victim does not allow me to
>> infringe the rights of others. When a CM rider runs a red light and
>> causes a driver with a clear right of way to slam on his or her
>> brakes, then the cyclist is wrong.
>> How did Pogo put it back in '70? "We have met the enemy and he is
>> us." It's an identical mentality... the only difference is the number
>> of wheels your vehicle has on the ground, which, IMO, is irrelevant.
Michael Press wrote:
> No, not the 1970's. Walt Kelly drew and wrote Pogo.
>
> ----------------
> Deck us all with Boston Charlie,
> Walla Walla, Wash., an' Kalamazoo!
> Nora's freezin' on the trolley,
> Swaller dollar cauliflower alley-garoo!
>
> Don't we know archaic barrel,
> Lullaby Lilla boy, Louisville Lou?
> Trolley Molly don't love Harold,
> Boola boola Pensacoola hullabaloo!
>
> Bark us all bow-wows of folly,
> Polly wolly cracker n' too-da-loo!
> Hunky Dory's pop is lolly gaggin' on the wagon,
> Willy, folly go through!
>
> Donkey Bonny brays a carol,
> Antelope Cantaloup, 'lope with you!
> Chollie's collie barks at Barrow,
> Harum scarum five alarum bung-a-loo!
> ----------------
>
> I think I know what happened to Gene Daniels.
You have The Pogo Songbook!! (or a superb memory?) Cool!
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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| | | | | |
Date: 02 Sep 2007 05:26:39
From: !Jones
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
|
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 04:57:25 GMT, in rec.bicycles.tech Michael Press
<rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote:
>> How did Pogo put it back in '70? "We have met the enemy and he is
>> us." It's an identical mentality... the only difference is the number
>> of wheels your vehicle has on the ground, which, IMO, is irrelevant.
>
>No, not the 1970's. Walt Kelly drew and wrote Pogo.
Well, I had a copy of the poster above my army bunk in Vietnam. That
would have been '71. As I recall, Kelly released it for the first
"Earth Day" in 1970 and the cartoon version was slightly earlier.
Yes... I just found the poster, yellow with age and tattered... and it
says, "Copyright 1970" in still visable printing.
Can't believe I could find that. Now, where are my house keys?
Jones
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 02 Sep 2007 18:21:06
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
|
In article
<1i3ld3p03pnpqitgiep51uj94de6ptm9c8@4ax.com >,
!Jones <piss@off.com > wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 04:57:25 GMT, in rec.bicycles.tech Michael Press
> <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >> How did Pogo put it back in '70? "We have met the enemy and he is
> >> us." It's an identical mentality... the only difference is the number
> >> of wheels your vehicle has on the ground, which, IMO, is irrelevant.
> >
> >No, not the 1970's. Walt Kelly drew and wrote Pogo.
>
> Well, I had a copy of the poster above my army bunk in Vietnam. That
> would have been '71. As I recall, Kelly released it for the first
> "Earth Day" in 1970 and the cartoon version was slightly earlier.
> Yes... I just found the poster, yellow with age and tattered... and it
> says, "Copyright 1970" in still visable printing.
>
> Can't believe I could find that. Now, where are my house keys?
Nevertheless, Pogo uttered the line earlier. A
copyright on a poster does not preclude an earlier
occurrence of the line.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 02 Sep 2007 18:51:10
From: !Jones
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
|
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 18:21:06 GMT, in rec.bicycles.tech Michael Press
<rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote:
>Nevertheless, Pogo uttered the line earlier. A
>copyright on a poster does not preclude an earlier
>occurrence of the line.
OK, I thought you were putting it later. I was passing through San
Francisco during the first "earth day"... the first one to be
proclaimed by elected officials, anyway. That was early '70 and the
picture of Pogo in the swamp was the logo. It could well have been
and probably was used in a strip before that... notwithstanding, I'd
still go with spring of '70, I think; your milage may vary.
Jones
|
| |
Date: 01 Sep 2007 11:09:31
From:
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
|
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 11:06:34 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>http://www.startribune.com/crime/story/1396202.html
[Odd, the link requires a login and password, but somehow I got there
without ever signing up--probably the referring site has some sneaky
trick. Here's the article.]
Police arrested 19 bicyclists, including three juveniles, after a
protest ride took an ugly turn in downtown Minneapolis Friday night.
About 200 bicyclists were riding on La Salle Avenue, with two officers
monitoring the protest that called for reduced reliance on automobile
transportation. The ride was also linked with weekend protests of next
year's Republican National Convention in the Twin Cities.
When officers tried to arrest a rider they felt had been trying to
provoke them, a scuffle broke out, said Minneapolis Police Lt. Marie
Przynski.
"When the officer went to arrest him, his buddy came up, and they
started to struggle with the officer," Przynski said.
A group surrounded the officers, and begin to chant "Let them go!"Then
several people tried to prevent the officers from arresting these
individuals," she said, and a skirmish ensued.
Soon, the two officers were surrounded by about 30 people, and they
issued the call "officer needs help."
That brought 48 officers from six different law enforcement agencies
racing to the scene, where the situation escalated and the officers
used chemical Mace in an attempt to control the crowd, Przynski said.
Police then called in medics to examine people who were sprayed. Some
officers had minor injuries, such as scrapes, but nobody was seriously
injured, said Przynski, the night watch commander.
It was unclear, Przynski said, if the first people arrested were
affiliated with the convention protest group. The lieutenant also said
that a State Patrol helicopter had videotaped part of the event, and
that documentation would be included in what police are now reviewing.
Police said they have had little trouble with recent rallies staged by
Critical Mass, a loosely organized group that opposes society's heavy
use of motor vehicles.
"We've never had a problem with Critical Mass, the rally," she said.
"We agree with them that we need to lessen our dependence on the
automobile. Apparently, they had some infiltrators or outsiders who
joined the rally tonight. And these outsiders were trying to provoke
the officers."
The adults were arrested on suspicion of rioting, a gross misdemeanor
|
| | |
Date: 02 Sep 2007 01:08:37
From: Leo Lichtman
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
|
Quoting a police spokesperson: (clip) "We've never had a problem with
Critical Mass, the rally," she said. "We agree with them that we need to
lessen our dependence on the automobile. Apparently, they had some
infiltrators or outsiders who joined the rally tonight. And these outsiders
were trying to provoke the officers." (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It is refreshing to see that the police have a reasonable approach to what
happened, and do not treat Critical Mass as "the enemy," the way many of the
responders to this thread seem do.
I have very little use for Critical Mass, because their actions are
calculated to create inconvenience, and this increases hostility among the
non-riding public. It evidently creates hostility among riders, as well.
This is no reason to throw them "under the jail."
>
> The adults were arrested on suspicion of rioting, a gross misdemeanor
>
|
| | |
Date: 01 Sep 2007 12:35:45
From: DI
Subject: Re: minnesota bicyclists arrested
|
<carlfogel@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:837jd3h745q3s57deekiln8a3tqekg0v30@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 11:06:34 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>
>>http://www.startribune.com/crime/story/1396202.html
>
> [Odd, the link requires a login and password, but somehow I got there
> without ever signing up--probably the referring site has some sneaky
> trick. Here's the article.]
>
> Police arrested 19 bicyclists, including three juveniles, after a
> protest ride took an ugly turn in downtown Minneapolis Friday night.
> About 200 bicyclists were riding on La Salle Avenue, with two officers
> monitoring the protest that called for reduced reliance on automobile
> transportation. The ride was also linked with weekend protests of next
> year's Republican National Convention in the Twin Cities.
>
> When officers tried to arrest a rider they felt had been trying to
> provoke them, a scuffle broke out, said Minneapolis Police Lt. Marie
> Przynski.
>
> "When the officer went to arrest him, his buddy came up, and they
> started to struggle with the officer," Przynski said.
>
> A group surrounded the officers, and begin to chant "Let them go!"Then
> several people tried to prevent the officers from arresting these
> individuals," she said, and a skirmish ensued.
>
> Soon, the two officers were surrounded by about 30 people, and they
> issued the call "officer needs help."
>
> That brought 48 officers from six different law enforcement agencies
> racing to the scene, where the situation escalated and the officers
> used chemical Mace in an attempt to control the crowd, Przynski said.
>
> Police then called in medics to examine people who were sprayed. Some
> officers had minor injuries, such as scrapes, but nobody was seriously
> injured, said Przynski, the night watch commander.
>
> It was unclear, Przynski said, if the first people arrested were
> affiliated with the convention protest group. The lieutenant also said
> that a State Patrol helicopter had videotaped part of the event, and
> that documentation would be included in what police are now reviewing.
>
> Police said they have had little trouble with recent rallies staged by
> Critical Mass, a loosely organized group that opposes society's heavy
> use of motor vehicles.
>
> "We've never had a problem with Critical Mass, the rally," she said.
> "We agree with them that we need to lessen our dependence on the
> automobile. Apparently, they had some infiltrators or outsiders who
> joined the rally tonight. And these outsiders were trying to provoke
> the officers."
>
> The adults were arrested on suspicion of rioting, a gross misdemeanor
>
I got to the link w/o any problems
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|
