need spring-energy-storage mechanism

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Date: 29 May 2007 02:53:26
From:
Subject: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
on the spring-storage.

at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
energy.

Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
back up.

Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.

Date: 10 Jun 2007 17:00:56
From: J.A. Legris
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

Date: 04 Jun 2007 10:03:44
From: jim
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com wrote:

> I requested information about spring storage.

No you requested info about transporting a commodity off a mountain. Of
course, there really is no mountain or commodity. There never was you
mad trhat up. You just thought if you threw that bit in so that some
brilliant mechanical engineer would give away, for free, the recipe for
regenerative braking on a bicycle without noticing that they had done
so. Ha Ha Ha what a hoot!
Meanwhile you have a half dozen entrepreneurs with ropes and pulleys
and laundry chutes hunting down your mountain and the fortune to be made
there. You got love Usenet the entertainment is unsurpassed.

-jim

>There was a flood of
> posts about ropes, pulleys, and etc that couldn't possibly work in the
> geo setting. Hey, if a funicular or a tramway was indicated, there are
> pro's out there who will build them for me. And not difficult to find,
> either.
>

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Date: 03 Jun 2007 12:31:51
From: John S.
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On Jun 3, 4:12 am, dances_with_barka...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > If you will take the time to go back and read the original posters
> > message it was so poorly written and imprecise that my first
> > impression was this guy is just bored and composing something that
> > will generate some responses.
>
> that's your view. My view is that I was not disclosing the
> information which would enable someone else to come into my desired
> niche.

You are concerened about somone coming in on a low volume, low value
product that has significant transportation costs from the top of a
mointain? Assuming your description is anywhere close to reality, I
can only assume you are hallucinating. From your description you
would have to pay someone to horn in. Unless of course you are really
talking about trying to transport product from your marijuna or poppy
patch.

>
> I requested information about spring storage. There was a flood of
> posts about ropes, pulleys, and etc that couldn't possibly work in the
> geo setting. Hey, if a funicular or a tramway was indicated, there are
> pro's out there who will build them for me. And not difficult to find,
> either.

Anyone with a half an ounce of mechanical sense would realize that a
spring would not contain nearly enough energy to make it worthwhile.
Especially considering the substantial cosrts involved. And you know
that.

>
> There was also a stream of posts about incomprehensible nonsense.

That pretty much is the information you originally supplied.

>
> >. That he failed to recognize any of the posts only served to
> > affirm that initial conclusion.
>
> I thought I was being polite, in not consuming bandwidth and
> archive resources, to respond to not-on-point nonsense.

Bullshit. Your posts make me think you just crank out half-baked posts
in the hopes of attracting attention.

>
> I'm not complaining; for free I don't expect to get much valuable
> information. Usenet is the Tragedy of the Commons writ large.

Are you writing for self appreciation?

> But as
> Warren Buffet observed, there's still money to be made occassionally
> by picking nickels up off the streets.

And I'm sure Warren Buffet has thoughts about adults who continue to
look for the adolescent
pleasure of being the center of attention no matter how it is
obtained.

Date: 03 Jun 2007 10:21:54
From: Edward Green
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On May 30, 5:47 pm, default <defa...@defaulter.net > wrote:
> On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:49:02 GMT, Rich Grise <r...@example.net> wrote:
>
> >I'd pay $100.00 to see somebody tape a piece of buttered toast to the
> >back of a cat. ;-)
>
> >I'd have no problem covering the #100 - it'd win $10,000 on "America's
> >Stupidest Videos". ;-)
>
> >Cheers!
> >Rich
>
> You'd lose, on both counts. I'd anaesthetize the cat.

I've injected unanaesthetized cats with fluids (vet orders, not animal
cruelty).

Same method of holding down cat in sink, with helper, could no doubt
be applied to toast application.

Date: 03 Jun 2007 10:15:39
From: Edward Green
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On May 29, 7:35 am, "Sue..." <suzysewns...@yahoo.com.au > wrote:
> On May 29, 8:19 am, Ron Hardin <rhhar...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > Use a blimp.
>
> That seems commercially feasible for the logging
> industry but only a few bicycle sheds will accomodate
> a blimp without knocking out a few walls.

What are the economics of taking a blimp up and down a mountain?

Now that I think of this, the question seems moot: if the economic
good is at the top of a mountain, it should be easy to get it down:
one only needs a method to control free-fall. If useable amounts of
power can be harvested, that's a side benefit. There's no energy cost
in lowering your commodity, the economics is in the start up and
maintenance costs.

Date: 03 Jun 2007 14:30:52
From:
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

brian a m stuckless wrote:

(snip)

Brian, please read this:

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/dont.html

I hope this helps.

Date: 03 Jun 2007 14:09:32
From:
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com wrote:

>> If you will take the time to go back and read the original posters
>> message it was so poorly written and imprecise that my first
>> impression was this guy is just bored and composing something that
>> will generate some responses.
>
>that's your view. My view is that I was not disclosing the
>information which would enable someone else to come into my desired
>niche.

You could have answered 95% of the questions without doing that.

Read this: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro

>I requested information about spring storage. There was a flood of
>posts about ropes, pulleys, and etc that couldn't possibly work in the
>geo setting.

Spring storage couldn't possibly work either. The energy density
isn't good enough, and if it was you would have a potential bomb.
You are an idiot who is so narrow minded that you won't accept any
solution other than the one you half-baked yourself.

Read this: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro

>There was also a stream of posts about incomprehensible nonsense.

Read this: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro

>I'm not complaining; for free I don't expect to get much valuable
>information. Usenet is the Tragedy of the Commons writ large. But as
>Warren Buffet observed, there's still money to be made occassionally
>by picking nickels up off the streets.

Other people get good answers because they ask good questions.
You wrote a question that sucks and then ignore all requests for
clarification. You REALLY need to read the following!

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro
http://www.montebello.k12.ca.us/Resources/Roadmap/map07.html

In the killfile you go:

*PLONK*

Date: 03 Jun 2007 07:26:06
From: brian a m stuckless
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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$$ Where is spring energy POTENTiAL "stored"?
$$ (Dances with dimwits)
> > Anyone that has ever tensioned a garage door spring, intended to
> > assist lifting a weight of at most 50-100 pounds a few feet, and saw
> > the spring that takes . . . wouldn't be seriously considering a spring
> > - just too damn heavy and large to get its own weight up the hill.
>
> very excellent point. one which I figured out after some
> googleing, and mentioned in the new thread. Your example is much more
> intuitively clear and obvious. Kudos for that.
>
> > only slightly valuable cargo,
>
> well, that's what it is. videlicet, people can make
> substitutions for it. and now are, at a price that's lower than
> what I can produce mine for, unless i can do it EXTREMELY cheaply.
>
> > wouldn't demand a high
> > tech solution like regenerative brake bicycles,
>
> is that high-tech to you? Eaton/Peterbilt does use hydraulic/
> pneumatic storage of regenerated-braking-energy, RIGHT NOW for
> dumptrucks. Maybe that's high tech, maybe not. And I bet if I threw
> enough money to Eaton, they'd come up with a scaled version that was
> suitable to me. Want to invest? You'll get your full disclosure when
> you sign the check.
>
> > He won't describe the cargo in more detail or the mountain?
>
> If I had, how would it help anyone identify the desired spring-
> storage mechanism?
>
> > (and wants the location to remain a secret)
>
> Of course, because the commodity probably will remain slightly
> valuable forever. Eventually, maybe I'll stumble across a cost-
> effective transportation. If it was HIGHLY valuable, it would justify
> the costs of asking people who know what they're talking about.
>
> I think you are not well plugged into economic realities. Silver is
> more valuable than all but 3-4 other widely traded metals. yet
> there's not more than 2-3 places in the whole world where it's value-
> density is sufficient to justify the cost of digging it out of the
> ground FOR ITSELF. Silver is essentially a lucky byproduct, > 99%
> of the time.
>
> Since the advent of Ebay, gigantic new trading markets have opened up
> for things that weren't previously worth the costs of trading. Why
> are you acting so shocked that I've stumbled across a similar paradigm?

$$ Where is spring or fly-wheel POTENTiAL energy "stored"?

Subject: Re: is spacetime curvature the source of inertia?
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:51:53 -0230
From: brian a m stuckless <bastuck@nf.sympatico.ca >
Newsgroups:
sci.physics.relativity, sci.philosophy.tech, sci.math,
sci.astro, bit.org
References:
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10

[NEW < Stefan-Qx.jpg >] ENERGY vs iNERTiA ..iAMfri18may2007.

Date: 03 Jun 2007 02:09:56
From:
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

> It also has to run on frictionless bearings and in a vacuum to actually
> store the energy.

that's apparently NOT a bridge too far:

http://www.pcorp.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=83&Itemid=132&gclid=COufjN28v4wCFQkBYAod6U2mxA

Date: 03 Jun 2007 01:46:48
From:
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

> Anyone that has ever tensioned a garage door spring, intended to
> assist lifting a weight of at most 50-100 pounds a few feet, and saw
> the spring that takes . . . wouldn't be seriously considering a spring
> - just too damn heavy and large to get its own weight up the hill.

very excellent point. one which I figured out after some
googleing, and mentioned in the new thread. Your example is much more
intuitively clear and obvious. Kudos for that.

> only slightly valuable cargo,

well, that's what it is. videlicet, people can make
substitutions for it. and now are, at a price that's lower than
what I can produce mine for, unless i can do it EXTREMELY cheaply.

> wouldn't demand a high
> tech solution like regenerative brake bicycles,

is that high-tech to you? Eaton/Peterbilt does use hydraulic/
pneumatic storage of regenerated-braking-energy, RIGHT NOW for
dumptrucks. Maybe that's high tech, maybe not. And I bet if I threw
enough money to Eaton, they'd come up with a scaled version that was
suitable to me. Want to invest? You'll get your full disclosure when
you sign the check.

> He won't describe the cargo in more detail or the mountain?

If I had, how would it help anyone identify the desired spring-
storage mechanism?

> (and wants the location to remain a secret)

Of course, because the commodity probably will remain slightly
valuable forever. Eventually, maybe I'll stumble across a cost-
effective transportation. If it was HIGHLY valuable, it would justify
the costs of asking people who know what they're talking about.

I think you are not well plugged into economic realities. Silver is
more valuable than all but 3-4 other widely traded metals. yet
there's not more than 2-3 places in the whole world where it's value-
density is sufficient to justify the cost of digging it out of the
ground FOR ITSELF. Silver is essentially a lucky byproduct, > 99%
of the time.

Since the advent of Ebay, gigantic new trading markets have opened up
for things that weren't previously worth the costs of trading. Why
are you acting so shocked that I've stumbled across a similar paradigm?

Date: 03 Jun 2007 18:57:05
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

You haven't convinced me that your not a pimply faced lard ass
presenting your Physics for Poets final exam question to usnet for your
perverse entertainment. Since you posted to alt.horology, here's a
watch collector's answer: The mainspring for a 16 size Hamilton pocket
watch is pretty stout and they're readily available. I'm figuring 50
years of winding might store enough energy to get your fat ass out of
your mother's basement.

Now be a good boy and get a job. Mowing lawns is good exercise. You
don't see many fat Mexicans on landscaping crews.

R "troll baiter" TF

dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Anyone that has ever tensioned a garage door spring, intended to
>> assist lifting a weight of at most 50-100 pounds a few feet, and saw
>> the spring that takes . . . wouldn't be seriously considering a spring
>> - just too damn heavy and large to get its own weight up the hill.
>
> very excellent point. one which I figured out after some
> googleing, and mentioned in the new thread. Your example is much more
> intuitively clear and obvious. Kudos for that.
>
>
>
>> only slightly valuable cargo,
>
> well, that's what it is. videlicet, people can make
> substitutions for it. and now are, at a price that's lower than
> what I can produce mine for, unless i can do it EXTREMELY cheaply.
>
>
>
>> wouldn't demand a high
>> tech solution like regenerative brake bicycles,
>
> is that high-tech to you? Eaton/Peterbilt does use hydraulic/
> pneumatic storage of regenerated-braking-energy, RIGHT NOW for
> dumptrucks. Maybe that's high tech, maybe not. And I bet if I threw
> enough money to Eaton, they'd come up with a scaled version that was
> suitable to me. Want to invest? You'll get your full disclosure when
> you sign the check.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> He won't describe the cargo in more detail or the mountain?
>
> If I had, how would it help anyone identify the desired spring-
> storage mechanism?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> (and wants the location to remain a secret)
>
> Of course, because the commodity probably will remain slightly
> valuable forever. Eventually, maybe I'll stumble across a cost-
> effective transportation. If it was HIGHLY valuable, it would justify
> the costs of asking people who know what they're talking about.
>
>
> I think you are not well plugged into economic realities. Silver is
> more valuable than all but 3-4 other widely traded metals. yet
> there's not more than 2-3 places in the whole world where it's value-
> density is sufficient to justify the cost of digging it out of the
> ground FOR ITSELF. Silver is essentially a lucky byproduct, > 99%
> of the time.
>
>
> Since the advent of Ebay, gigantic new trading markets have opened up
> for things that weren't previously worth the costs of trading. Why
> are you acting so shocked that I've stumbled across a similar paradigm?
>

Date: 10 Jun 2007 00:29:14
From: Revision
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

> Now be a good boy and get a job. Mowing lawns is good exercise. You
> don't see many fat Mexicans on landscaping crews.

No, very few are fat.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 10 Jun 2007 20:46:10
From: Bob Cain
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

Revision wrote:
>> Now be a good boy and get a job. Mowing lawns is good exercise. You
>> don't see many fat Mexicans on landscaping crews.
>
> No, very few are fat.

Fewer of their wives are otherwise.

Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler."

A. Einstein

Date: 10 Jun 2007 22:14:22
From: Bill
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

Revision wrote:
>> Now be a good boy and get a job. Mowing lawns is good exercise. You
>> don't see many fat Mexicans on landscaping crews.
>
> No, very few are fat.
>
>
>
Ummm, no they aren't, but you still can't ask one for directions. You
get the "No Habla Anglais" just about every time.
Been there, done that, didn't work with hand signals.
Meanwhile, I managed to get myself volunteered for digging up about 300
feet of leech line for a friend's rental house. I can already feel the
blisters waiting to pop up. At least I am riding my bike the 2 miles
each way.
Shovel, sweat, drink beer, repeat until sunset.
Bill Baka

Date: 10 Jun 2007 17:31:35
From: SMS
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

Bill wrote:
> Revision wrote:
>>> Now be a good boy and get a job. Mowing lawns is good exercise. You
>>> don't see many fat Mexicans on landscaping crews.
>>
>> No, very few are fat.
>>
>>
> Ummm, no they aren't, but you still can't ask one for directions. You
> get the "No Habla Anglais" just about every time.

BFD, and what does that have to do with exercise? It's just laziness
that people with tiny lawns are spending $75/month for lawn service that
would take them about 30 minutes every two weeks to do themselves.
Especially in Silicon Valley where the weather is fine. It's not like
even using up your weekend to mow the lawn, you can do it after work
instead of going to the gym!

I guess I'm cheap. I do my lawn myself, and I maintain my pool myself,
because I can't see another $150 per month in monthly expenditures for
things I can easily do myself, no matter what the ethnic origin of the
people I would otherwise hire.

Date: 10 Jun 2007 20:41:36
From: Bill
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

SMS wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> Revision wrote:
>>>> Now be a good boy and get a job. Mowing lawns is good exercise. You
>>>> don't see many fat Mexicans on landscaping crews.
>>>
>>> No, very few are fat.
>>>
>>>
>> Ummm, no they aren't, but you still can't ask one for directions. You
>> get the "No Habla Anglais" just about every time.
>
> BFD, and what does that have to do with exercise? It's just laziness
> that people with tiny lawns are spending $75/month for lawn service that
> would take them about 30 minutes every two weeks to do themselves.
> Especially in Silicon Valley where the weather is fine. It's not like
> even using up your weekend to mow the lawn, you can do it after work
> instead of going to the gym!

I do my own lawn but it is Spartan since I am not about to plant
flowers. We have an ongoing new housing project near me and once people
buy one of those cheap crap houses they buy 2 SUV's and a riding lawn
mower for their absurdly small lawns. The result is that many of the
newly purchased new homes are now in foreclosure.
They should say "Quality homes built by Mexicans and built with the
lowest price everything.".
>
> I guess I'm cheap. I do my lawn myself, and I maintain my pool myself,
> because I can't see another $150 per month in monthly expenditures for
> things I can easily do myself, no matter what the ethnic origin of the
> people I would otherwise hire.

Same here. I don't have a pool because I would have to maintain the
thing even when I was on vacation, and I don't want to hire a pool boy.
Bill Baka

Date: 11 Jun 2007 04:21:52
From: SMS
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

Bill wrote:

<snip >

> They should say "Quality homes built by Mexicans and built with the
> lowest price everything.".

Again, who they're built by is immaterial.

It's true that the quality of materials being used these days is
abysmal. I'm not sure what's going on with the developer's effort to
allow CPVC pipe for drinking water; Schwarzenegger was pushing this at
the request of developers, but I'm not sure if it ever went through. The
OSB is bad enough.

OTOH, when I was getting my roof replaced, the roofing guy was telling
me that I could only use the lighter tiles to replace the wood shake
roof, as the regular tiles used in new construction were too heavy. So
the actual frame and roof of the new houses are stronger than the older
houses, even as the non-structural materials decline in quality.

What _has_ happened is that the illegal alien labor has made working as
a construction worker no longer a living wage job, except where the
developer is required to use only union workers.

Date: 11 Jun 2007 17:58:10
From: Bill
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

SMS wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> They should say "Quality homes built by Mexicans and built with the
>> lowest price everything.".
>
> Again, who they're built by is immaterial.
>
> It's true that the quality of materials being used these days is
> abysmal. I'm not sure what's going on with the developer's effort to
> allow CPVC pipe for drinking water; Schwarzenegger was pushing this at
> the request of developers, but I'm not sure if it ever went through. The
> OSB is bad enough.
>
> OTOH, when I was getting my roof replaced, the roofing guy was telling
> me that I could only use the lighter tiles to replace the wood shake
> roof, as the regular tiles used in new construction were too heavy. So
> the actual frame and roof of the new houses are stronger than the older
> houses, even as the non-structural materials decline in quality.

They are all pre-fab and trucked in for maximum cheapness. The central
A/C units are at the absolute bottom or the legal EPA energy SEER
ratings and there is barely any insulation in the new homes. Since I
have watched this go from a field to an el-cheapo housing development,
starting around $290,000 for a 1,200 square foot house on a 60 by 80
foot piece of dirt, I know just how bad they are built. One day it
rained heavily on the bare wood rooftops and the next day they were
sealing in the water with the roofing paper. Those are not houses I
would buy even at half price.
>
> What _has_ happened is that the illegal alien labor has made working as
> a construction worker no longer a living wage job, except where the
> developer is required to use only union workers.

Union workers, here. ROTFLMAO.
Wetback illegals, , mostly, and nobody that even speaks English.
The foreman is a bilingual Mexican so he can translate the developers
instructions to the crews. I hate even riding through there anymore
since they all have their truck radios on full blast with the doors open
playing the same Mexican music over and over and over......
Any and all American union workers have been displaced here.
Bill Baka

Date: 03 Jun 2007 16:58:43
From: Trevor Jones
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com wrote:

> is that high-tech to you? Eaton/Peterbilt does use hydraulic/
> pneumatic storage of regenerated-braking-energy, RIGHT NOW for
> dumptrucks. Maybe that's high tech, maybe not. And I bet if I threw
> enough money to Eaton, they'd come up with a scaled version that was
> suitable to me. Want to invest? You'll get your full disclosure when
> you sign the check.

The reality you seem unwilling to accept, is that physics does not
scale worth a shit.

Recovering a small amount of energy from slowing down a multi ton load
in a dump truck costs a fraction of the dump trucks weight and overall
cost. The dump trucks also have a big motherin' diesel engine to haul
their load (and the regen braking system) back up to speed. I have no
doubt that the payback period on the regen braking system on a dump
truck is measured in years, too.

Put a system on a bicycle, and you will not ever get back the energy
it takes to haul it around, nor will you recover the costs of purchase
or development.

I get the distinct feeling that you are a dreamer that is unwilling to
accept that there are a few real flaws in your whole line of investigation.

Throw money at Eaton. They will laugh all the way to the bank with it.
Get a granny gear on your bike too. You are going to need it to haul the
dead weight back up the hill.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Date: 03 Jun 2007 10:42:35
From: default
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 01:46:48 -0700, dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com
wrote:

>> Anyone that has ever tensioned a garage door spring, intended to
>> assist lifting a weight of at most 50-100 pounds a few feet, and saw
>> the spring that takes . . . wouldn't be seriously considering a spring
>> - just too damn heavy and large to get its own weight up the hill.
>
> very excellent point. one which I figured out after some
>googleing, and mentioned in the new thread. Your example is much more
>intuitively clear and obvious. Kudos for that.
>
>
Well, in all honesty, I wasn't entirely ruling out springs - just not
the way you envision them, and not for climbing mountains.

My own pet idea - take a "gas spring" - those things used to hold the
50 pound hatch on hatch back cars up? They are light in weight and
for a relatively small travel distance of the piston, have enormous
weight holding potential. Some with hundreds of pounds. Now take
that and mate it to something like a brake drum on a bicycle (bicycles
don't use brake drums but could). The rider actuates the brake and
the tendency is for the drum to want to grab the wheel and rotate
itself, shoes and all. Now that small movement (of say 4-6") could be
used to compress the spring. Then, when the brake is released, the
shoes hold the drum for a little while as the compressed spring
transfers its energy back to the wheel to get you started rolling
again. (versus having to stand on the pedals - just assists in stop
and go conditions and just to kick it into motion). All mechanical
and it would take learning some new habits to use - but could be
really useful in the city.

>
>> only slightly valuable cargo,
>
> well, that's what it is. videlicet, people can make
>substitutions for it. and now are, at a price that's lower than
>what I can produce mine for, unless i can do it EXTREMELY cheaply.
>
>
>
>> wouldn't demand a high
>> tech solution like regenerative brake bicycles,
>
> is that high-tech to you? Eaton/Peterbilt does use hydraulic/
>pneumatic storage of regenerated-braking-energy, RIGHT NOW for
>dumptrucks. Maybe that's high tech, maybe not. And I bet if I threw
>enough money to Eaton, they'd come up with a scaled version that was
>suitable to me. Want to invest? You'll get your full disclosure when
>you sign the check.
>
>
Yeah it would be high tech for me. A practical, lightweight enough
for a bicycle, with human power? A dump truck I can see hauling
around a high pressure accumulator or reservoir - a bicycle less so.

A bicycle rider can only supply about 100 watts of power to the pedals
for a short period of time 50-75 may be more reasonable. Now how does
one capture and store the small amount of energy, converting from
torsion to pressure or amp hours and back again and do it in something
that has to remain very light if a human is expected to provide the
energy input? I'm sure it will be done . . . someday. When it comes
to bicycles, weight is everything.
>
>
>> He won't describe the cargo in more detail or the mountain?
>
> If I had, how would it help anyone identify the desired spring-
>storage mechanism?
>
Well, there are always more than one way to solve any problem. With
all the facts in evidence, other solutions may seem obvious. By
limiting the information, you narrow the scope of solutions. The
desired spring storage mechanism was a non-starter from the get-go.

Some clever people get on these newsgroups and solving problems in
novel and neat synergistic ways is often rewarding - we all learn
something.
>
>
>> (and wants the location to remain a secret)
>
> Of course, because the commodity probably will remain slightly
>valuable forever. Eventually, maybe I'll stumble across a cost-
>effective transportation. If it was HIGHLY valuable, it would justify
>the costs of asking people who know what they're talking about.
>
>
But it wouldn't hurt to describe the terrain/topography in detail.
Type of road, type of grades encountered, length, other factors like
private or public access. Condition of valuable mineral or plant -
liquid, solid, density, or other factors like friability, solubility
that may be important to preserving its usefulness. For instance if
it is nearly liquid or easily soluble and miscible in water it may be
dissolved and piped down and recovered - depending on distance and
cost of plumbing etc..

Always look for the easy solution first - then embellish it if
warranted.

>I think you are not well plugged into economic realities. Silver is
>more valuable than all but 3-4 other widely traded metals. yet
>there's not more than 2-3 places in the whole world where it's value-
>density is sufficient to justify the cost of digging it out of the
>ground FOR ITSELF. Silver is essentially a lucky byproduct, > 99%
>of the time.
>
I get the feeling that silver isn't at issue. Here in the US they do
or did a lot of mining for copper up near Idaho and Montana. Zinc,
lead, and silver are some of the byproducts. I camped along the "Lead
Creek" near DeBorgia Montana and learned all about silver, or more
correctly, copper. I was bumming around on a motorcycle and getting a
real education.

>
>Since the advent of Ebay, gigantic new trading markets have opened up
>for things that weren't previously worth the costs of trading. Why
>are you acting so shocked that I've stumbled across a similar paradigm?

I'm not "shocked." The secrecy and lack of information and hit and
run style suggested someone trolling Usenet, not an actual real world
application for design.
--

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Date: 03 Jun 2007 01:12:27
From:
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

> If you will take the time to go back and read the original posters
> message it was so poorly written and imprecise that my first
> impression was this guy is just bored and composing something that
> will generate some responses.

that's your view. My view is that I was not disclosing the
information which would enable someone else to come into my desired
niche.

I requested information about spring storage. There was a flood of
posts about ropes, pulleys, and etc that couldn't possibly work in the
geo setting. Hey, if a funicular or a tramway was indicated, there are
pro's out there who will build them for me. And not difficult to find,
either.

There was also a stream of posts about incomprehensible nonsense.

>. That he failed to recognize any of the posts only served to
> affirm that initial conclusion.

I thought I was being polite, in not consuming bandwidth and
archive resources, to respond to not-on-point nonsense.

I'm not complaining; for free I don't expect to get much valuable
information. Usenet is the Tragedy of the Commons writ large. But as
Warren Buffet observed, there's still money to be made occassionally
by picking nickels up off the streets.

Date: 03 Jun 2007 05:28:40
From: me
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com wrote in news:1180858347.774105.77670@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
>
snip
>
> I'm not complaining; for free I don't expect to get much valuable
>information. Usenet is the Tragedy of the Commons writ large. But as
>Warren Buffet observed, there's still money to be made occassionally
>by picking nickels up off the streets.
>

Here's a freebie for you. If your commodity is higher up and you want to transpoert it down you already
have stored energy for "free". Throw/roll/slide it downhill....

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Date: 03 Jun 2007 06:02:52
From: St. John Smythe
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

The thing I don't think I recall hearing is weight or volume per load.
Your viable options could change quite a bit with variations in those.

Anyhow, since you had initially proposed a bicycle, I'd say you'd be
hard-pressed to improve on the cost-efficiency of a moped. Taking the
Eaton/Peterbilt approach, if you were able to drive your per-trip
operational cost down to $.05 by virtue of, say, $100K in development
costs, it would take a long time to amortize that start-up cost.

Do you have a business plan so you know your break-even point?

--
St. John, not ready to write a check just yet

Date: 02 Jun 2007 08:52:23
From:
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On 2 Jun, 04:17, Robert Adsett <s...@aeolusdevelopment.com > wrote:
> In article <18qdna-397BjwcLbnZ2dnUVZ_qbin...@comcast.com>, Donald
> says...
>
>
[...]

> And what's a man-hour of energy?
>
> Robert

A more user friendly version of 0.05kWh :)

Date: 01 Jun 2007 15:22:47
From: John S.
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On Jun 1, 1:21 pm, Brian Whatcott <betw...@sbcglobal.net > wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 06:19:31 -0700, "John S." <hjs...@cs.com> wrote:
> >On May 29, 5:53 am, dances_with_barka...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
> >> wind-up clock motor?
> ...
> >I've come to the conclusion the author of this post is just another of
> >the internet trolls described in Wikipedia. One vaguely worded
> >question asking about using a spring powered bicycle to transport a
> >bushel of something of modest value from somewhere to somewhere. And
> >no further response.
>
> ]
>
> John is disturbed, because the poser of the question has not
> responded. This response in newsgroups is not in fact unusual.
>
> It reminds me that the US culture requires both a
> "Thank you" for help from the helpee, and a "You're welcome"
> from the helper, to be in good form.

Yes, I realize that some newsgroup participants behave as though they
were born in a barn. Thank yous are not being looked for, but if
someone poses a technical question, I think that most of us living in
civil society would expect some response about whether the information
was useful.

Apparently expectations of behaviour and common courtesy are somewhat
lower Altus OK that the rest of the US.

>
> But it is probably better to act as though one responds to requests
> for input simply for one's own amusement or education.

If you will take the time to go back and read the original posters
message it was so poorly written and imprecise that my first
impression was this guy is just bored and composing something that
will generate some responses. Looking for attention as many trolls
are. That he failed to recognize any of the posts only served to
affirm that initial conclusion.

>
> Brian Whatcott Altus OK

Date: 01 Jun 2007 14:00:52
From:
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On 1 Jun, 00:40, Donald <Don...@dontdoithere.com > wrote:
> j...@jjdesigns.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
[...]
>
> > A 2 pound flywheel can store 4 man-hours of energy at about 80%
> > efficiency. This is a 5X better power to weight ratio than batteries.
> > (still only a fraction of that of gasoline).
>
> Interesting calculation, where did you find it ?
>
> Where you someone buy a 2 pound flywheel ?
>
> donald

It's a standard physics formula.
Actual calc' from a 1910 motor car design hanbook. Also
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/2001/ph162/l8.html is one of the few sites
that bothers to do some sums.
There's also a number of really interesting research project sites
investigating details of materials, containments, bearings, hoop
stresses etc.
First interest in these things came from a 2 (1 ton each!), flywheel,
experimental, monorail railway system in a 1912 science book (UK).

Date: 01 Jun 2007 11:27:02
From: Jasen
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On 2007-05-29, dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com <dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com > wrote:
> i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
> wind-up clock motor?
>
> the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
> of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
> paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
> very much transport.

contract a regular traveler to transport it for you. (all paved roads
are regularly traveled, and few people with wheeled transport are
greatly inconvenienced by carrying loads downhill)

--

Bye.
Jasen

Date: 01 Jun 2007 06:19:31
From: John S.
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On May 29, 5:53 am, dances_with_barka...@yahoo.com wrote:
> i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
> wind-up clock motor?
>
> the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
> of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
> paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
> very much transport.
>
> the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
> the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
> on the spring-storage.
>
> at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
> lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
> energy.
>
> Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
> that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
> too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
> might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
> doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
> back up.
>
> Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
> commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
> this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.

I've come to the conclusion the author of this post is just another of
the internet trolls described in Wikipedia. One vaguely worded
question asking about using a spring powered bicycle to transport a
bushel of something of modest value from somewhere to somewhere. And
no further response.

Date: 01 Jun 2007 13:52:11
From: default
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 06:19:31 -0700, "John S." <hjsjms@cs.com > wrote:

>
>I've come to the conclusion the author of this post is just another of
>the internet trolls described in Wikipedia. One vaguely worded
>question asking about using a spring powered bicycle to transport a
>bushel of something of modest value from somewhere to somewhere. And
>no further response.

He started a new thread saying we should forget about springs. And
posted one reply on that thread.

Half the folks that are posting through Google Groups don't understand
how to interact with Usenet, indeed, don't seem to know that they are
posting to Usenet or how to find their way back to what they posted.

But he did cross post to groups associated with his basic premise, so
he must have some understanding of Usenet.

But yeah, I agree, too much troll here to be a serious question.

Anyone that has ever tensioned a garage door spring, intended to
assist lifting a weight of at most 50-100 pounds a few feet, and saw
the spring that takes . . . wouldn't be seriously considering a spring
- just too damn heavy and large to get its own weight up the hill.

And the terms - only slightly valuable cargo, wouldn't demand a high
tech solution like regenerative brake bicycles, vacuum flywheels, or
springs that don't exist.

He won't describe the cargo in more detail or the mountain? On the
one hand he's saying its value hardly justifies the effort of moving
it, on the other hand, it must be very valuable if he can even
consider designing something that would be pushing the state of the
art. (and wants the location to remain a secret)

Contradictions. Troll bait.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

Trolling is a game about identity deception, albeit one that is played
without the consent of most of the players. The troll attempts to pass
as a legitimate participant, sharing the group's common interests and
concerns; the newsgroups members, if they are cognizant of trolls and
other identity deceptions, attempt to both distinguish real from
trolling postings, and upon judging a poster a troll, make the
offending poster leave the group. Their success at the former depends
on how well they � and the troll � understand identity cues; their
success at the latter depends on whether the troll's enjoyment is
sufficiently diminished or outweighed by the costs imposed by the
group.
--

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Date: 01 Jun 2007 18:43:48
From: Michael A. Terrell
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

default wrote:
>
> He won't describe the cargo in more detail or the mountain?

For all we know, he may be making a mountain out of a molehill.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Date: 01 Jun 2007 15:13:38
From: default
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 18:43:48 GMT, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net > wrote:

>default wrote:
>>
>> He won't describe the cargo in more detail or the mountain?
>
>
> For all we know, he may be making a mountain out of a molehill.

More likely the converse.
--

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Date: 01 Jun 2007 20:00:33
From: Michael A. Terrell
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

default wrote:
>
> On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 18:43:48 GMT, "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >default wrote:
> >>
> >> He won't describe the cargo in more detail or the mountain?
> >
> >
> > For all we know, he may be making a mountain out of a molehill.
>
> More likely the converse.

That will take a LOT of moles! ;-)

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Date: 01 Jun 2007 12:21:33
From: Brian Whatcott
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 06:19:31 -0700, "John S." <hjsjms@cs.com > wrote:

>On May 29, 5:53 am, dances_with_barka...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
>> wind-up clock motor?
...
>I've come to the conclusion the author of this post is just another of
>the internet trolls described in Wikipedia. One vaguely worded
>question asking about using a spring powered bicycle to transport a
>bushel of something of modest value from somewhere to somewhere. And
>no further response.
]

John is disturbed, because the poser of the question has not
responded. This response in newsgroups is not in fact unusual.

It reminds me that the US culture requires both a
"Thank you" for help from the helpee, and a "You're welcome"
from the helper, to be in good form.

But it is probably better to act as though one responds to requests
for input simply for one's own amusement or education.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

Date: 02 Jun 2007 05:59:51
From: jim
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

Brian Whatcott wrote:
>
> On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 06:19:31 -0700, "John S." <hjsjms@cs.com> wrote:
>
> >On May 29, 5:53 am, dances_with_barka...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
> >> wind-up clock motor?
> ...
> >I've come to the conclusion the author of this post is just another of
> >the internet trolls described in Wikipedia. One vaguely worded
> >question asking about using a spring powered bicycle to transport a
> >bushel of something of modest value from somewhere to somewhere. And
> >no further response.
> ]
>
> John is disturbed, because the poser of the question has not
> responded. This response in newsgroups is not in fact unusual.
>
> It reminds me that the US culture requires both a
> "Thank you" for help from the helpee, and a "You're welcome"
> from the helper, to be in good form.
>
> But it is probably better to act as though one responds to requests
> for input simply for one's own amusement or education.

Ha ha ha, one's own amusement and education? You mean there might not be
a mountain? No profitable sale of a commodity if only the transportation
can be worked out? Wait I suppose that also means the OP won't be making
a million dollars and coming back to share the wealth with all those who
provided assistance? Man what a disappointment.

-jim

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Date:
From:
Subject:

Date: 01 Jun 2007 14:04:21
From: default
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 12:21:33 -0500, Brian Whatcott
<betwys1@sbcglobal.net > wrote:

>It reminds me that the US culture requires both a
>"Thank you" for help from the helpee, and a "You're welcome"
> from the helper, to be in good form.

So he's French?

We North Americanos forget other cultures use the Internet.
Of course if he's reading a discourse on his posting style, and is a
troll, he's laughing his head off right now.
--

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Date: 31 May 2007 16:37:32
From:
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On 29 May, 10:53, dances_with_barka...@yahoo.com wrote:
> i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
> wind-up clock motor?
>
> the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
> of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
> paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
> very much transport.
>
> the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
> the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
> on the spring-storage.
>
> at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
> lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
> energy.
>
> Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
> that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
> too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
> might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
> doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
> back up.
>
> Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
> commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
> this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.

A 2 pound flywheel can store 4 man-hours of energy at about 80%
efficiency. This is a 5X better power to weight ratio than batteries.
(still only a fraction of that of gasoline).

Date: 31 May 2007 17:40:33
From: Donald
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

john@jjdesigns.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> On 29 May, 10:53, dances_with_barka...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
>>wind-up clock motor?
>>
>>the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
>>of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
>>paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
>>very much transport.
>>
>>the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
>>the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
>>on the spring-storage.
>>
>>at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
>>lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
>>energy.
>>
>>Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
>>that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
>>too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
>>might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
>>doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
>>back up.
>>
>>Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
>>commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
>>this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.
>
>
> A 2 pound flywheel can store 4 man-hours of energy at about 80%
> efficiency. This is a 5X better power to weight ratio than batteries.
> (still only a fraction of that of gasoline).
>

Interesting calculation, where did you find it ?

Where you someone buy a 2 pound flywheel ?

donald

Date: 01 Jun 2007 23:17:24
From: Robert Adsett
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

In article <18qdna-397BjwcLbnZ2dnUVZ_qbinZ2d@comcast.com >, Donald
says...
> john@jjdesigns.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> > On 29 May, 10:53, dances_with_barka...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> >>i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
> >>wind-up clock motor?
> >>
> >>the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
> >>of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
> >>paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
> >>very much transport.
> >>
> >>the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
> >>the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
> >>on the spring-storage.
> >>
> >>at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
> >>lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
> >>energy.
> >>
> >>Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
> >>that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
> >>too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
> >>might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
> >>doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
> >>back up.
> >>
> >>Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
> >>commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
> >>this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.
> >
> >
> > A 2 pound flywheel can store 4 man-hours of energy at about 80%
> > efficiency. This is a 5X better power to weight ratio than batteries.
> > (still only a fraction of that of gasoline).
> >
>
> Interesting calculation, where did you find it ?

And what's a man-hour of energy?

Robert

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 01 Jun 2007 01:21:46
From: Bill
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

Donald wrote:
> john@jjdesigns.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
>>
>> A 2 pound flywheel can store 4 man-hours of energy at about 80%
>> efficiency. This is a 5X better power to weight ratio than batteries.
>> (still only a fraction of that of gasoline).
>>
>
> Interesting calculation, where did you find it ?
>
> Where you someone buy a 2 pound flywheel ?
>
> donald

A 2 pound flywheel at what RPM and what diameter?
It also has to run on frictionless bearings and in a vacuum to actually
store the energy.
Science needs details.
Bill Baka

Date: 30 May 2007 16:33:57
From: Fortitudo Dei
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

> > Start at the beginning. You have a weight on top of a mountain, how
> > do you get it down the mountain?
>
> Funicular.
>
The famous Denniston Incline in New Zealand was a classic case of
putting this into action

http://tinyurl.com/2pxf3l
http://tinyurl.com/2gx6ph

Date: 31 May 2007 02:54:27
From: Homer J Simpson
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

"Fortitudo Dei" <Fortitudo_Dei@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1180564035.960760.207580@r19g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

>> > Start at the beginning. You have a weight on top of a mountain, how
>> > do you get it down the mountain?
>>
>> Funicular.
>>
> The famous Denniston Incline in New Zealand was a classic case of
> putting this into action
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2pxf3l
> http://tinyurl.com/2gx6ph

As were many of the canal systems - including the Panama Canal, the Falkirk
Wheel and the Anderton boat-lift, using water instead of wire.

Date: 31 May 2007 08:15:16
From: Paul Burke
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

Homer J Simpson wrote:
>
> As were many of the canal systems - including the Panama Canal, the Falkirk
> Wheel and the Anderton boat-lift, using water instead of wire.

The Falkirk Wheel and the Anderton Lift are ares, not weres. Although
the FW (opened as recently as 2002) takes advantage of balancing by
opposed caissons, the energy to raise or lower (replacing losses) is
electric. The Anderton Lift was never counterbalanced, in either
original hydraulic form, kid- life electric form, or its current
restored hydraulic form.

There were many counterbalanced inclines though, particularly on
railways. One not far from here, at Chapel-en-le-Frith on the Peak
Forest Tramroad, used trains of wagons loaded with limestone to haul up
trains of empties from 1796 to the 1920s, with only a brake drum to
control the descent. For the rest of the trip, the trains ran by gravity
downhill, horse powered uphill. The horses stood in a wagon at the rear
of the train on the downhill trip.

Paul Burke

Date: 30 May 2007 16:02:35
From: Fortitudo Dei
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

> > Start at the beginning. You have a weight on top of a mountain, how
> > do you get it down the mountain?
>
> Funicular.
>
The famous Denniston Incline in New Zealand was a classic case of this
in action

http://tinyurl.com/2pxf3l
http://tinyurl.com/2gx6ph

Date: 30 May 2007 11:58:49
From: me
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On May 30, 12:23 pm, Rich Grise <r...@example.net > wrote:
> On Wed, 30 May 2007 08:07:13 -0700, me wrote:
> > Off a cliff your easiest way is a 50 lb bucket with a 60 lb
> > counter
> > weight all hanging on a single pulley. Fill bucket, it goes down,
> > weight comes up. Empty bucket, weight goes down, bucket comes up.
> > You can do something similar with a cable, a car, and a track. Other
> > than that, my bet would be on any of the existing regenerative braking
> > systems already in existence.
>
> Instead of a counterweight, just use two buckets. Fill the top bucket,
> release the brake, and the bucket descends, raising the other bucket.
> Set the brake, empty the lower bucket while filling the upper bucket,
> and so on.
>
> But that depends on the characteristics of the road - is it straight?
> Line-of-sight? Can you claim a lane for your cablecars?

Yes, there is more left out of this problem than left in.
It is also possible (especially on a vertical drop system) to
put several "buckets" on a rotating system and continually
fill and empty them as the "go by". Basically a solid mass
version of a "water wheel".

Date: 01 Jun 2007 12:00:22
From: Jasen
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On 2007-05-30, me <oconnell@slr.orl.lmco.com > wrote:

> Yes, there is more left out of this problem than left in.
> It is also possible (especially on a vertical drop system) to
> put several "buckets" on a rotating system and continually
> fill and empty them as the "go by". Basically a solid mass
> version of a "water wheel".

Basically a bucket pump operating in reverse,

it needs pulleys that can accomodate the buckets, but little else.

Bye.
Jasen

Date:
From:
Subject:

Date: 30 May 2007 16:29:43
From: Michael A. Terrell
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

MooseFET wrote:
>
> On May 29, 9:32 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > Don't forget to add enough cats to the load in the "Cat-A-Pult" to
> > make sure it lands right side up.
>
> Tape buttered toast onto the cats back and it will spin up and fly
> much straighter.

Well, at least till all the butter flys off.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Date: 30 May 2007 20:45:29
From:
Subject: Re: Whaddayacallem?

Jasper Janssen writes:

>> I've seen this arrangement in pictures now and then but doubt that
>> it was successful as anyone who has trued wheels can guess. You
>> can try as you like to tension a continuous wire as it wends its
>> way in and out of holes in the hub and wire hoops in the rim by
>> such a lever device, but it will not make a ridable wheel. As far
>> as I can see this was all prototype stuff that never went to
>> market. Besides, the pictures show enough wheels that, in spite of
>> the device, were still radial.

> If it's wire the size of a spoke, it's not like it's free to move at the
> rim and hub ends.

So if each end in fact ahas threaded end what do you do when one
breaks? The whole idea seems so impractically theoretical.

Jobst Brandt

Date: 30 May 2007 17:47:13
From:
Subject: Re: Whaddayacallem?

On 30 May 2007 20:45:29 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

>Jasper Janssen writes:
>
>>> I've seen this arrangement in pictures now and then but doubt that
>>> it was successful as anyone who has trued wheels can guess. You
>>> can try as you like to tension a continuous wire as it wends its
>>> way in and out of holes in the hub and wire hoops in the rim by
>>> such a lever device, but it will not make a ridable wheel. As far
>>> as I can see this was all prototype stuff that never went to
>>> market. Besides, the pictures show enough wheels that, in spite of
>>> the device, were still radial.
>
>> If it's wire the size of a spoke, it's not like it's free to move at the
>> rim and hub ends.
>
>So if each end in fact ahas threaded end what do you do when one
>breaks? The whole idea seems so impractically theoretical.
>
>Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

Actually, the lever-tension arm wheel was quite practical and
successful for the times. Uncle James Starley did a thriving business
taking boneshakers and replacing their crude wheels with his
lever-tension-arm wheels. Here's one of his ads for the wheel
replacement from p. 34 of "The Bicycle", Gilbert King's picture-book
of the Metz museum:

http://i19.tinypic.com/644jho0.jpg

As for the odd vee-spokes that ran through loops attached to the rim,
that scheme was invented and in use before Uncle James Starley added
the lever-tension-arm to tighten them in 1874. Here's a picture of an
1869 boneshaker with such spoke loops on both wheels (no lever tension
arms) from p. 18of Berto's "The Dancing Chain":

http://i12.tinypic.com/4qsz8fq.jpg

This 1904 Starley ad juxtaposes an 1874 lever-tension ad with to an
upcoming 1905 model, and shows that the 1874 model with a
lever-tension wheel was successful enough to sell for 18 pounds, a
handsome sum in those days:

http://www.arielcycles.me.uk/history/images/1904-3-02.jpg

Here are those vee-shaped "spokes" going through the little hoops
attached to a lever-tension-arm rim:

http://www.arielcycles.me.uk/history/images/starley03-3.jpg

As for continuous spoking, the prolific early bicycle inventor Emmit
Latta was still patenting detailed 9-page variations of that scheme
for the Pope Bicycle Co. in 1884. He snaked a single immensely long
wire back and forth between a high-wheeler hub and rim and hooked the
ends together. To tension things, he used screws at the hub thatt
pushed the hub bends toward the axle.

page 1
http://i12.tinypic.com/4zurp6w.jpg

page 2
http://i10.tinypic.com/67h0xz5.jpg

Page 3 shows the tight hub bends:
http://i7.tinypic.com/673oile.jpg

page 4
http://i8.tinypic.com/4mmcx06.jpg

Page 5 shows the rim lacing and the ends of the single piece of wire
finally hooked together:
http://i10.tinypic.com/67550r8.jpg

Patent text starts on page 6:
http://i12.tinypic.com/6czwos2.jpg

On page 7, spoke details start on the lower right:
http://i12.tinypic.com/520z2tu.jpg

Page 8 goes through the continuous spoke in detail and mentions that
some hubs can be tensioned just by spreading the hub flanges wider:
http://i13.tinypic.com/4v6smlw.jpg

page 9
http://i15.tinypic.com/4lzc9kl.jpg

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 31 May 2007 02:08:58
From:
Subject: Re: Whaddayacallem?

Carl Fogel writes:

>>>> I've seen this arrangement in pictures now and then but doubt that
>>>> it was successful as anyone who has trued wheels can guess. You
>>>> can try as you like to tension a continuous wire as it wends its
>>>> way in and out of holes in the hub and wire hoops in the rim by
>>>> such a lever device, but it will not make a ridable wheel. As far
>>>> as I can see this was all prototype stuff that never went to
>>>> market. Besides, the pictures show enough wheels that, in spite of
>>>> the device, were still radial.

>>> If it's wire the size of a spoke, it's not like it's free to move at the
>>> rim and hub ends.

>> So if each end in fact ahas threaded end what do you do when one
>> breaks? The whole idea seems so impractically theoretical.

> Actually, the lever-tension arm wheel was quite practical and
> successful for the times. Uncle James Starley did a thriving business
> taking boneshakers and replacing their crude wheels with his
> lever-tension-arm wheels. Here's one of his ads for the wheel
> replacement from p. 34 of "The Bicycle", Gilbert King's picture-book
> of the Metz museum:

http://i19.tinypic.com/644jho0.jpg

> As for the odd vee-spokes that ran through loops attached to the rim,
> that scheme was invented and in use before Uncle James Starley added
> the lever-tension-arm to tighten them in 1874. Here's a picture of an
> 1869 boneshaker with such spoke loops on both wheels (no lever tension
> arms) from p. 18of Berto's "The Dancing Chain":

http://i12.tinypic.com/4qsz8fq.jpg

> This 1904 Starley ad juxtaposes an 1874 lever-tension ad with to an
> upcoming 1905 model, and shows that the 1874 model with a
> lever-tension wheel was successful enough to sell for 18 pounds, a
> handsome sum in those days:

http://www.arielcycles.me.uk/history/images/1904-3-02.jpg

> Here are those vee-shaped "spokes" going through the little hoops
> attached to a lever-tension-arm rim:

http://www.arielcycles.me.uk/history/images/starley03-3.jpg

> As for continuous spoking, the prolific early bicycle inventor Emmit
> Latta was still patenting detailed 9-page variations of that scheme
> for the Pope Bicycle Co. in 1884. He snaked a single immensely long
> wire back and forth between a high-wheeler hub and rim and hooked
> the ends together. To tension things, he used screws at the hub
> that pushed the hub bends toward the axle.

> page 1

http://i12.tinypic.com/4zurp6w.jpg

> page 2

http://i10.tinypic.com/67h0xz5.jpg

> Page 3 shows the tight hub bends:

http://i7.tinypic.com/673oile.jpg

> page 4

http://i8.tinypic.com/4mmcx06.jpg

> Page 5 shows the rim lacing and the ends of the single piece of wire
> finally hooked together:

http://i10.tinypic.com/67550r8.jpg

> Patent text starts on page 6:

http://i12.tinypic.com/6czwos2.jpg

> On page 7, spoke details start on the lower right:

http://i12.tinypic.com/520z2tu.jpg

> Page 8 goes through the continuous spoke in detail and mentions that
> some hubs can be tensioned just by spreading the hub flanges wider:

http://i13.tinypic.com/4v6smlw.jpg

> page 9
http://i15.tinypic.com/4lzc9kl.jpg

It seems many of these drawings depict planetary and spur gears to
make a high wheeler into an indirect (geared-up) wheel. I don't see
the connection with the planetary gears and spoke tensioning that is a
separate problem. The complexity of the gearing and concentric shafts
is a classic similar to Rohloff.

In any event, truing a wheel without individual tensioning of spokes
is a mess with anything but an initially true rim, something a broken
spoke can throw out of kilter in a single bound. If individual spokes
can be tuned, then there is no benefit of lever tensioning of the
whole complement.

Not having a real one before me, and not even replicas to inspect
makes this whole method highly questionable as a useful invention.

Jobst Brandt

Date: 30 Jun 2007 17:46:36
From: Jasper Janssen
Subject: Re: Whaddayacallem?

On 31 May 2007 02:08:58 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

>In any event, truing a wheel without individual tensioning of spokes
>is a mess with anything but an initially true rim, something a broken
>spoke can throw out of kilter in a single bound. If individual spokes
>can be tuned, then there is no benefit of lever tensioning of the
>whole complement.

What you seem to be forgetting is that the modern variant SIMPLY WASN'T
INVENTED YET. I can sure as hell believe those wheels were 'better', for
values of more comfortable and lighter if not more durable, than the
iron-hoop-rimmed wooden wagon wheels that were around before.

Jasper

Date: 30 May 2007 22:45:31
From:
Subject: Re: Whaddayacallem?

On 31 May 2007 02:08:58 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

>Carl Fogel writes:
>
>>>>> I've seen this arrangement in pictures now and then but doubt that
>>>>> it was successful as anyone who has trued wheels can guess. You
>>>>> can try as you like to tension a continuous wire as it wends its
>>>>> way in and out of holes in the hub and wire hoops in the rim by
>>>>> such a lever device, but it will not make a ridable wheel. As far
>>>>> as I can see this was all prototype stuff that never went to
>>>>> market. Besides, the pictures show enough wheels that, in spite of
>>>>> the device, were still radial.
>
>>>> If it's wire the size of a spoke, it's not like it's free to move at the
>>>> rim and hub ends.
>
>>> So if each end in fact ahas threaded end what do you do when one
>>> breaks? The whole idea seems so impractically theoretical.
>
>> Actually, the lever-tension arm wheel was quite practical and
>> successful for the times. Uncle James Starley did a thriving business
>> taking boneshakers and replacing their crude wheels with his
>> lever-tension-arm wheels. Here's one of his ads for the wheel
>> replacement from p. 34 of "The Bicycle", Gilbert King's picture-book
>> of the Metz museum:
>
> http://i19.tinypic.com/644jho0.jpg
>
>> As for the odd vee-spokes that ran through loops attached to the rim,
>> that scheme was invented and in use before Uncle James Starley added
>> the lever-tension-arm to tighten them in 1874. Here's a picture of an
>> 1869 boneshaker with such spoke loops on both wheels (no lever tension
>> arms) from p. 18of Berto's "The Dancing Chain":
>
> http://i12.tinypic.com/4qsz8fq.jpg
>
>> This 1904 Starley ad juxtaposes an 1874 lever-tension ad with to an
>> upcoming 1905 model, and shows that the 1874 model with a
>> lever-tension wheel was successful enough to sell for 18 pounds, a
>> handsome sum in those days:
>
> http://www.arielcycles.me.uk/history/images/1904-3-02.jpg
>
>> Here are those vee-shaped "spokes" going through the little hoops
>> attached to a lever-tension-arm rim:
>
> http://www.arielcycles.me.uk/history/images/starley03-3.jpg
>
>> As for continuous spoking, the prolific early bicycle inventor Emmit
>> Latta was still patenting detailed 9-page variations of that scheme
>> for the Pope Bicycle Co. in 1884. He snaked a single immensely long
>> wire back and forth between a high-wheeler hub and rim and hooked
>> the ends together. To tension things, he used screws at the hub
>> that pushed the hub bends toward the axle.
>
>> page 1
>
> http://i12.tinypic.com/4zurp6w.jpg
>
>> page 2
>
> http://i10.tinypic.com/67h0xz5.jpg
>
>> Page 3 shows the tight hub bends:
>
> http://i7.tinypic.com/673oile.jpg
>
>> page 4
>
> http://i8.tinypic.com/4mmcx06.jpg
>
>> Page 5 shows the rim lacing and the ends of the single piece of wire
>> finally hooked together:
>
> http://i10.tinypic.com/67550r8.jpg
>
>> Patent text starts on page 6:
>
> http://i12.tinypic.com/6czwos2.jpg
>
>> On page 7, spoke details start on the lower right:
>
> http://i12.tinypic.com/520z2tu.jpg
>
>> Page 8 goes through the continuous spoke in detail and mentions that
>> some hubs can be tensioned just by spreading the hub flanges wider:
>
> http://i13.tinypic.com/4v6smlw.jpg
>
>> page 9
> http://i15.tinypic.com/4lzc9kl.jpg
>
>It seems many of these drawings depict planetary and spur gears to
>make a high wheeler into an indirect (geared-up) wheel. I don't see
>the connection with the planetary gears and spoke tensioning that is a
>separate problem. The complexity of the gearing and concentric shafts
>is a classic similar to Rohloff.
>
>In any event, truing a wheel without individual tensioning of spokes
>is a mess with anything but an initially true rim, something a broken
>spoke can throw out of kilter in a single bound. If individual spokes
>can be tuned, then there is no benefit of lever tensioning of the
>whole complement.
>
>Not having a real one before me, and not even replicas to inspect
>makes this whole method highly questionable as a useful invention.
>
>Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

Bicycle patents of that era often included several unrelated
inventions. Don't let it worry you.

True, the weird designs are no match for what we're used to . . .

But they worked and were used in the early days. The wheels of the
1870's had either no brakes or just spoon brakes, so they had no need
to be trued to the modern standards that we caliper-brake fanatics
insist on.

They probably broke sooner than wheels of modern design, but lots of
things broke sooner back then, and riders routinely put up with
repairs that we wouldn't dream of enduring. Here's a picture of an old
safety bike (Davis 1910 Heavy Service) with several rear spokes broken
and just wrapped around other spokes:

http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/1798.htm

It's horrifying, but it still beat walking.

Similarly, the lever-tension-arm wheel of 1874 beat the even more
primitive boneshaker wheel--most Starley lever-tension-arm bicycles
are actually converted boneshakers wearing the improved Starley
wheels, not complete Starley bicycles.

Soon after the lever-tension-arm wheel came the later Starley wheel
that we all know, with individual spokes laced at a tangent.

The new, improved wheel beat hell out of the earlier Starley
lever-tension-arm wheels, but even the Starley company itself didn't
see the advantage of tangent over radial lacing for some time--their
ads, as I pointed out earlier in this thread, show that they kept
selling radial-spoked wheels.

Many highwheelers also stuck with radial lacing.

Hell, even safety bicycles kept using radial lacing for years--Lenz
used a radial front wheel in his round-the-world attempt:

http://i10.tinypic.com/5ywikhu.jpg

Tangent may be obviously better to us, but radial worked well enough
for spoon brakes or no brakes at all.

As for whether those old bikes with weird designs were useful, they
were used enough that we can still dig up pictures of ads and of
well-worn bikes over a century old that use those peculiar designs.

The old bikes and weird designs are rare today for several reasons.

Some of them were indeed impractical, so they died out quickly. The
weird continous spoke design never caught on, but Emmit Latta designed
bike stuff for years for the Pope Company, the world's largest
manufacturer. I haven't come across any of his other patents that ran
nine pages, so I suspect that he put one together.

Impractical or otherwise, bicycles were rare and expensive back then
in terms of modern prices and production numbers, so there were never
very many of even the successful ones.

High wheelers, for example, were made for only about 15 years, between
1874 and 1890, so they had a short production span. The safety bicycle
appeared around 1885 and had the same effect on highwheelers that
pocket calculators had on slide rules.

Worst of all, many obsolete high wheelers and other strange bicycles
survived the rise of the modern double-diamond bicycle, lurking in
sheds and barns, but they disappeared in the scrap-metal drives of the
First World War.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 30 May 2007 11:17:01
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

While you were siting on you fat pot smoking ass trolling to get other
people to create energy for you I bought 3 bicycles at Wal-Mart, hired a
bunch of Mexicans with back packs and scooped your franchise.

Now go get a job and stop wasting our time and get your fat pimply face
out'a your mom's refrigerator!

R "school's out for the summer" TF

dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com wrote:
> i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
> wind-up clock motor?
>
> the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
> of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
> paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
> very much transport.
>
> the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
> the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
> on the spring-storage.
>
> at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
> lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
> energy.
>
> Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
> that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
> too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
> might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
> doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
> back up.
>
> Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
> commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
> this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.
>

Date: 30 May 2007 17:35:23
From: Jim Bianchi
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On Wed, 30 May 2007 11:17:01 -0400, Moka Java wrote:
> While you were siting on you fat pot smoking ass trolling to get other
> people to create energy for you I bought 3 bicycles at Wal-Mart, hired a
> bunch of Mexicans with back packs and scooped your franchise.

Yeah, but are the bezels water-proof? :)

> Now go get a job and stop wasting our time and get your fat pimply face
> out'a your mom's refrigerator!
>
> R "school's out for the summer" TF

--
jimbo "enquiring minds want to know" @sonic.net

Date: 30 May 2007 08:07:13
From: me
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On May 29, 5:53 am, dances_with_barka...@yahoo.com wrote:
> i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
> wind-up clock motor?
>
[snip]
> the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
> the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
> on the spring-storage.
>
> at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
> lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
> energy.
>
> Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
> that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
> too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
> might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
> doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
> back up.

You're up against the energy density problem. You don't quantify
anything here, but you are potentially looking to store a large
quantity of energy. Flywheels make good energy storage "buffers"
much like capacitors, but they don't do large energy storage well.
And they have losses as well. Folks have suggestsed various
forms of cable driven machines, and that has the advantage that
you'll use the energy when you generate it. Alternately, you
can store the energy in a fixed location and resuse it through a
cable system. And cable systems will have their significant losses
as well.

It would seem that what you are after actually is any reasonably
efficient storage system, and then use it to move ALOT of
material. That will increase the difference between the mass
being lifted, and that being lowered. This will allow you to suffer
fairly significant losses an still accomplish what you are after.
This system you envision will work because you plan on harvesting
the potential energy of materials already elevated on the mountian to
do work. So you'll want to harvest large amounts such that you can
stand the losses in the conversion and use.

Off a cliff your easiest way is a 50 lb bucket with a 60 lb
counter
weight all hanging on a single pulley. Fill bucket, it goes down,
weight comes up. Empty bucket, weight goes down, bucket comes up.
You can do something similar with a cable, a car, and a track. Other
than that, my bet would be on any of the existing regenerative braking
systems already in existence.

Date:
From:
Subject:

Date: 30 May 2007 08:06:26
From: MooseFET
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On May 29, 9:32 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net >
wrote:
> Revision wrote:
>
> > > Start at the beginning. You have a weight on top of a mountain, how
> > > do you get it down the mountain?
>
> > > Throw it off and let it roll down if you can.
>
> > Yeah, maybe a track... stuff the goods in a ball and roll it down. Or a
> > catapult.
>
> Don't forget to add enough cats to the load in the "Cat-A-Pult" to
> make sure it lands right side up.

Tape buttered toast onto the cats back and it will spin up and fly
much straighter.

Date: 30 May 2007 00:41:59
From: lightninglad
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On May 29, 7:53 pm, dances_with_barka...@yahoo.com wrote:
> i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
> wind-up clock motor?
>
> the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
> of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
> paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
> very much transport.
>
> the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
> the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
> on the spring-storage.
>
> at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
> lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
> energy.
>
> Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
> that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
> too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
> might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
> doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
> back up.
>
> Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
> commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
> this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.

Use a simple counterweight and brake - the weight of the goods going
down pulls it up and when they're removed, the counterweight falls
back down. No road needed.
Any spring based energy storage device is likely to require an
excessively heavy frame to contain the compressive forces. A flywheel
(vacuum cage ?) will work but once again weight is involved - although
with a rim weighted flywheel it might not be as much as the spring
system.

Date: 29 May 2007 15:51:26
From: Paul Hovnanian P.E.
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
> wind-up clock motor?
>
> the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
> of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
> paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
> very much transport.
>
> the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
> the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
> on the spring-storage.
>
> at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
> lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
> energy.
>
> Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
> that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
> too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
> might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
> doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
> back up.
>
> Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
> commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
> this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.

I'd recommend an electric bicycle with regenerative braking. Most of the
other solutions are going to require quite a bit of R&D and investment.
Electric bikes are (pretty much) off the shelf technology.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Speed is n0 subsittute fo accurancy.

Date: 29 May 2007 15:15:37
From: whit3rd
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On May 29, 2:53 am, dances_with_barka...@yahoo.com wrote:
> i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
> wind-up clock motor?
>
> the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
> of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
> paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
> very much transport.

There's a traditional scheme (used in Virginia a century or two back)
where the harvest was put aboard a barge (or raft?) and sent
downriver.
At the lowland dock, the grain was sold, the barge disassembled and
sold as lumber, and the farmer/boatman took his cash home on foot.

Best solution might be as simple as resigning oneself to walking the
bike back
up the hill. If the road isn't well-maintained, the rider is the
best
mechanism to do that climb, and you can fuel the rider with the cash.

Date: 29 May 2007 16:34:19
From: Donald
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

whit3rd wrote:
> On May 29, 2:53 am, dances_with_barka...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
>>wind-up clock motor?
>>
>>the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
>>of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
>>paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
>>very much transport.
>
>
> There's a traditional scheme (used in Virginia a century or two back)
> where the harvest was put aboard a barge (or raft?) and sent
> downriver.
> At the lowland dock, the grain was sold, the barge disassembled and
> sold as lumber, and the farmer/boatman took his cash home on foot.
>
> Best solution might be as simple as resigning oneself to walking the
> bike back
> up the hill. If the road isn't well-maintained, the rider is the
> best
> mechanism to do that climb, and you can fuel the rider with the cash.
>
The OP had not made it clear how far is the "top on the mountain" source
and the "place where it is sold" destination.

There is just a poor reference to "not enough to pay for very much
transport."

If the "existing paved road" is 2 miles, human transport is OK, 200
miles (uphill) would cost a bunch.

Technology will not solve this problem.

donald

Date: 29 May 2007 12:48:21
From: John S.
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On May 29, 5:53 am, dances_with_barka...@yahoo.com wrote:
> i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
> wind-up clock motor?
>
> the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
> of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time.

Which product, how far up the mountain is this location and how steep
is the climb.

> there is an existing
> paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
> very much transport.

Doesn't seem to be viable at the outset.

>
> the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
> the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
> on the spring-storage.
>
> at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
> lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
> energy.
>
> Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
> that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
> too involved, and losses throguh two conversions.

Assuming you can find a spring large enough to power 250 pounds of
bicycle and rider up the hill you will have several kinds of losses.

Winding the spring will take consume energy to spin the geared down
winding train and slide the coils against one-another. Same losses
apply going up the hill. The huge spring and gear train will weigh
maybe 50 pounds and consume energy as it is moved around. Making this
oversized clock mechamism will involve custom rolling for the spring
and machine work for the spring housing and gear train. In short it
will represent a considerable amount of up-front money.

Consider enhancing the local economy and pay local boys by the bushel
delivered.

Alternatively you might think about a self-propelled hot air baloon.

> Capacitor storage
> might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold.

A capacitor????? How about a storage battery.

> The charge
> doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
> back up.
>
> Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
> commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
> this is business, not pleasure.

> Time spent should be cost-effective.

????

Date: 29 May 2007 08:21:49
From: Richard Henry
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On May 29, 6:34 am, default <defa...@defaulter.net > wrote:
> On 29 May 2007 02:53:26 -0700, dances_with_barka...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
> >wind-up clock motor?
>
> >the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
> >of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
> >paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
> >very much transport.
>
> >the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
> >the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
> >on the spring-storage.
>
> >at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
> >lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
> >energy.
>
> >Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
> >that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
> >too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
> >might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
> >doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
> >back up.
>
> >Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
> >commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
> >this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.
>
> A cable system with pulleys top and bottom. Two or more cargo
> carrying buckets. Weight of full bucket pulls cargo down and takes
> empty bucket up.
>
> If the cargo can't be suspended over the ground, you could still add
> wheels to the buckets to let them roll over the high points.
>
> You still have to get people up there to fill buckets - unless you can
> get the bats to deposit the guano into the bucket (just kidding).
>
> Perhaps the worker could ride an empty bucket up and just take a taut
> cable to ride down (McGuiver style) when his shift is over.
>
> Lot less hassle than bicycles and springs. Low tech with commonly
> available parts.
> --
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----http://www.newsfeeds.comThe #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

There are various railway systems around the world that work on that
principle: two cars linked to a cable, running up and down, sometimes
on a single railway with a cleverly-engineered passing lane in the
middle. If the weight of the payload is sufficient to overcome the
friction in the system, little additional energy would be required.

Careful attention must be paid to the need to stop the payload at the
bottom.

Date: 29 May 2007 16:09:24
From: Invalid
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

In message <1180432406.155025.128400@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com >,
dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com writes
>i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
>wind-up clock motor?
>
>the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
>of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
>paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
>very much transport.
>
>the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
>the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
>on the spring-storage.
>
>at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
>lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
>energy.
>
>Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
>that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
>too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
>might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
>doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
>back up.
>
>Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
>commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
>this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.
>
I wouldn't want to go ANYWHERE NEAR a spring that contained that sort of
stored energy. A big clock spring contains a few tens of foot-pounds of
energy, and if it lets go in the wrong place at the wrong time can do
enormous damage. You are talking about something with foot-tons of
energy associated with a very thin metal "blade" many, many feet long.
Riding the bike would be like riding a potential bomb.

Sound like all you really need is an electric bicycle with regenerative
braking. Down the mountain with the brakes on will charge the batteries,
riding back up will discharge them.

A quick Google got me http://www.valuride.com/ebikes_2007_500a.htm. One
of those, or the core components (Motor, batteries and regenerative
braking system) sounds a MUCH SAFER bet.

--
Peter R Cook

Date: 29 May 2007 15:07:42
From: Sam Wormley
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com wrote:
> i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
> wind-up clock motor?
>
> the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
> of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
> paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
> very much transport.
>
> the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
> the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
> on the spring-storage.
>
> at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
> lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
> energy.
>
> Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
> that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
> too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
> might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
> doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
> back up.
>
> Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
> commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
> this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.
>

A Toyota Prius will convert and store the energy... of which will get
it part way back up the mountain... But the important point is that
the gravitational energy available from the commodity will be used to
help get the transport back up the mountain.

The physics problem: Calculate the energy available and compare with the
energy needs.

Date: 29 May 2007 21:29:16
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

> dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com wrote:
>> i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
>> wind-up clock motor?
>>
>> the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
>> of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
>> paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
>> very much transport.
>>
>> the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
>> the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
>> on the spring-storage.
>>
>> at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
>> lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
>> energy.
>>
>> Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
>> that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
>> too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
>> might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
>> doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
>> back up.
>>
>> Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
>> commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
>> this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.

Sam Wormley wrote:
> A Toyota Prius will convert and store the energy... of which will get
> it part way back up the mountain... But the important point is that
> the gravitational energy available from the commodity will be used to
> help get the transport back up the mountain.
> The physics problem: Calculate the energy available and compare with the
> energy needs.

I believe the forgotten aspect is that energy conversion / storage/
retrieval at each step is inefficient. Else every vehicle would have
'magic regenerative braking' already.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 29 May 2007 07:47:00
From: Richard Henry
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On May 29, 4:28 am, Greg Locock <gregloc...@yahoo.com.au > wrote:
> dances_with_barka...@yahoo.com wrote in news:1180432406.155025.128400
> @n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
>
> > i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
> > wind-up clock motor?
>
> > the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
> > of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
> > paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
> > very much transport.
>
> A Flying fox. Used in Italy to get supplies to and from mountain tops.
>
> Two cables, one pulley, two carriers and a long bit of rope.

One cable.

Date: 29 May 2007 09:34:41
From: default
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

Date: 29 May 2007 09:25:56
From: default
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On 29 May 2007 02:53:26 -0700, dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com wrote:

>i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
>wind-up clock motor?
>
>the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
>of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
>paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
>very much transport.
>
>the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
>the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
>on the spring-storage.
>
>at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
>lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
>energy.
>
>Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
>that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
>too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
>might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
>doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
>back up.
>
>Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
>commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
>this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.

A trailer would be trying to pass the bicycle on the way down if you
are winding a spring - regenerative braking style.

Probably too high tech for low value goods on mountain tops . . . but
there are several experimenter's using something called
ultracapacitors for energy storage on bicycles. This idea has been
around since the first ultra caps hit the market.

http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/GLTRS/browse.pl?2002/TM-2002-211792.html

NASA note with link to 32 page brief

Excerpt:
The E-Bike is a state of the art, ground up, hybrid electric bicycle.
Unique features of the vehicle's power system include the use of an
efficient, 400 watt, electric hub motor and a 7-speed derailleur
system that permits operation as fully electric, fully pedal, or a
combination of the two. Other innovative features, such as
regenerative braking through ultracapacitor energy storage, are
planned. Regenerative braking recovers much of the kinetic energy of
the vehicle during deceleration. The E-bike has previously been tested
with the standard battery energy storage system, a symmetric
ultracapacitor energy storage system, and a combination battery and
symmetric ultracapacitor energy storage system. The focus of this
report is the test results of the E-bike with asymmetric
ultracapacitor energy storage and comparison to the other energy
storage systems. The report concludes that the E-Bike provides
excellent performance and that the implementation of asymmetric
ultracapacitors in the power system can provide significant
performance improvements.

Search on bicycle and ultracapacitor - there's more info on the web
--

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Date: 29 May 2007 12:47:29
From: Trevor Jones
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com wrote:

> i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
> wind-up clock motor?
>
> the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
> of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
> paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
> very much transport.
>
> the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
> the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
> on the spring-storage.
>
> at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
> lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
> energy.
>
> Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
> that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
> too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
> might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
> doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
> back up.
>
> Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
> commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
> this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.
>

Gasoline motor.

Nobody's yet found an effective way to store as much energy as that,
in as little weight. Commercially available, cheap, practical.

Any other system is going to cost you more in time, money, and weight,
than it will ever repay in work done, otherwise the world would be
well equipped with just such devices.

Anything that recovers energy on the down trip will cost more to carry
back up.

If time spent should be cost effective, you are already over budget
for the time spent considering such foolishness.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Date: 30 May 2007 01:36:34
From: Brian Whatcott
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On Tue, 29 May 2007 12:47:29 GMT, Trevor Jones <t.o.jones@telus.net >
wrote:

>dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
>> wind-up clock motor?...

> Gasoline motor.
>
> Nobody's yet found an effective way to store as much energy as that,
>in as little weight. Commercially available, cheap, practical.
...
> Trevor Jones

I used to see bike motors with friction drive on the tire tread, and
also a fancier power-wheel with engine built in.
I see these fellows making a come back.

I like the kei-trucks from Japan, and I also see some motor scooters
designed Lambretta style - but without the fairings, right now.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

Date: 29 May 2007 09:51:46
From: default
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On Tue, 29 May 2007 12:47:29 GMT, Trevor Jones <t.o.jones@telus.net >
wrote:

> Gasoline motor.
>
> Nobody's yet found an effective way to store as much energy as that,
>in as little weight. Commercially available, cheap, practical.
>
> Any other system is going to cost you more in time, money, and weight,
> than it will ever repay in work done, otherwise the world would be
>well equipped with just such devices.
>
> Anything that recovers energy on the down trip will cost more to carry
>back up.
>
> If time spent should be cost effective, you are already over budget
>for the time spent considering such foolishness.
>
> Cheers
> Trevor Jones

Not necessarily. The fallacy in your logic is that you are ignoring
the stored kinetic energy already in the weight on top of the
mountain. Everyone is thinking in terms of lifting it up and carrying
it down the mountain.

The op has already put the idea of bicycles, trailers, springs and
other wishful or incredibly complex systems in everyone's mind.

Start at the beginning. You have a weight on top of a mountain, how
do you get it down the mountain?

Throw it off and let it roll down if you can - simple and not too
costly. Parachute? high wire? ground dragging, low wire?

I'd have to see the mountain, but I'll bet there's an easier cheaper
way to do it that doesn't involve a lot of technology or fuel.
--

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Date: 30 May 2007 06:15:53
From: Homer J Simpson
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

"default" <default@defaulter.net > wrote in message
news:fbbo53tilq215g46o57dv0kjl95cfrr3ad@4ax.com...

> Start at the beginning. You have a weight on top of a mountain, how
> do you get it down the mountain?

Funicular.

--
.

--
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

--

Date: 30 May 2007 00:29:30
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

Homer J Simpson wrote:
> "default" <default@defaulter.net> wrote in message
> news:fbbo53tilq215g46o57dv0kjl95cfrr3ad@4ax.com...
>
>> Start at the beginning. You have a weight on top of a mountain, how
>> do you get it down the mountain?

> Funicular.

Enjoyably gross?

Date: 29 May 2007 23:14:16
From: Revision
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

> Start at the beginning. You have a weight on top of a mountain, how
> do you get it down the mountain?
>
> Throw it off and let it roll down if you can.

Yeah, maybe a track... stuff the goods in a ball and roll it down. Or a
catapult.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 30 May 2007 09:57:23
From: default
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On Tue, 29 May 2007 23:14:16 -0500, "Revision" <ttsremove@nojunkr.net >
wrote:

>> Start at the beginning. You have a weight on top of a mountain, how
>> do you get it down the mountain?
>>
>> Throw it off and let it roll down if you can.
>
>Yeah, maybe a track... stuff the goods in a ball and roll it down. Or a
>catapult.

I like catapult or big slingshot.

Or a pipe, he didn't say what the material is.
--

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Date: 30 May 2007 04:32:09
From: Michael A. Terrell
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

Revision wrote:
>
> > Start at the beginning. You have a weight on top of a mountain, how
> > do you get it down the mountain?
> >
> > Throw it off and let it roll down if you can.
>
> Yeah, maybe a track... stuff the goods in a ball and roll it down. Or a
> catapult.

Don't forget to add enough cats to the load in the "Cat-A-Pult" to
make sure it lands right side up.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Date: 30 May 2007 17:28:11
From: Don Lancaster
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> Revision wrote:
>
>>>Start at the beginning. You have a weight on top of a mountain, how
>>>do you get it down the mountain?
>>>
>>>Throw it off and let it roll down if you can.
>>
>>Yeah, maybe a track... stuff the goods in a ball and roll it down. Or a
>>catapult.
>
>
>
> Don't forget to add enough cats to the load in the "Cat-A-Pult" to
> make sure it lands right side up.
>
>
What happens if you put butter on the top side of the cat?

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: don@tinaja.com

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Date: 31 May 2007 16:56:14
From: still me
Subject: Re: Simplex Skewer(vintage) thread is? Or wingnut source ?

On Wed, 30 May 2007 22:39:03 -0700, "* * Chas"
<verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com > wrote:

>Actually the Jubilee rear derailleurs friction shift freewheels up to 26
>teeth pretty well. The Jubilee long arms are useless.
>
>Chas.

Well, now that you mention it, it was a long arm although on a 13-24
since I was just piloting it for an eventual touring setup. That may
have been the issue.

Do the shorts have the same long cable travel though? I couldn't
believe that I had to push that lever with the large circumference
cable hub all that way. Compared to a vintage Campy or Simplex it was
a lot of lever movement around the circle.

Date: 01 Jun 2007 00:06:59
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Simplex Skewer(vintage) thread is? Or wingnut source ?

"still me" <wheeledBob@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:9cvt531k1efe3s5k0sdud4upqqgjac8sul@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 30 May 2007 22:39:03 -0700, "* * Chas"
> <verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
> >Actually the Jubilee rear derailleurs friction shift freewheels up to
26
> >teeth pretty well. The Jubilee long arms are useless.
> >
> >Chas.
>
> Well, now that you mention it, it was a long arm although on a 13-24
> since I was just piloting it for an eventual touring setup. That may
> have been the issue.
>
> Do the shorts have the same long cable travel though? I couldn't
> believe that I had to push that lever with the large circumference
> cable hub all that way. Compared to a vintage Campy or Simplex it was
> a lot of lever movement around the circle.
>

The short Jubilees could handle 13-24 freewheels with 36-53 chainrings.
The long arms 13-26 freewheels and 26-53 chainrings. The Huret Duopar rear
derailleurs where designed for 13-36 freewheels and 26-53 chainrings -
much like Suntour and Shimano.

The Huret Jubilee shift levers have much larger "drum" diameters than most
of the contemporary levers at that time.

Chas.

Date: 01 Jun 2007 19:07:21
From: still me
Subject: Re: Simplex Skewer(vintage) thread is? Or wingnut source ?

On Fri, 1 Jun 2007 00:06:59 -0700, "* * Chas"
<verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com > wrote:

>
>The Huret Jubilee shift levers have much larger "drum" diameters than most
>of the contemporary levers at that time.

Yeah... and I still had to pull it all the way back on that long cage
to get to the low gears. :-)

The jubilee also had much less horizontal range - seemed like a 6
speed Ultra was the most I was going to get out of it.

Date: 31 May 2007 21:18:38
From: _
Subject: Re: Simplex Skewer(vintage) thread is? Or wingnut source ?

On Thu, 31 May 2007 16:56:14 GMT, still me wrote:

> On Wed, 30 May 2007 22:39:03 -0700, "* * Chas"
> <verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
>>Actually the Jubilee rear derailleurs friction shift freewheels up to 26
>>teeth pretty well. The Jubilee long arms are useless.
>>
>>Chas.
>
> Well, now that you mention it, it was a long arm although on a 13-24
> since I was just piloting it for an eventual touring setup. That may
> have been the issue.
>
> Do the shorts have the same long cable travel though? I couldn't
> believe that I had to push that lever with the large circumference
> cable hub all that way. Compared to a vintage Campy or Simplex it was
> a lot of lever movement around the circle.

The Jubilee has a number of engineering features that are worthy of note -
the locking mechanism for the pivot bolt, and the cam on the lever barrel
are two.

Date: 30 May 2007 17:46:56
From: N:dlzc D:aol T:com $dlzc$
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

Dear Don Lancaster:

"Don Lancaster" <don@tinaja.com > wrote in message
news:5c6j51F2vcs0aU1@mid.individual.net...
...
> What happens if you put butter on the top side of
> the cat?

Is the cat toasted? This might very well split the cosmos in
half...

David A. Smith

Date: 31 May 2007 00:39:35
From: Michael A. Terrell
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

Don Lancaster wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> > Revision wrote:
> >
> >>>Start at the beginning. You have a weight on top of a mountain, how
> >>>do you get it down the mountain?
> >>>
> >>>Throw it off and let it roll down if you can.
> >>
> >>Yeah, maybe a track... stuff the goods in a ball and roll it down. Or a
> >>catapult.
> >
> >
> >
> > Don't forget to add enough cats to the load in the "Cat-A-Pult" to
> > make sure it lands right side up.
> >
> >
> What happens if you put butter on the top side of the cat?

It will be too slick to launch with the "Cat-A-Pult", and it'll leave
yet ANOTHER slick cat mess where it hits the ground. ;-)

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Date: 31 May 2007 10:38:02
From: Frank Adam
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On Wed, 30 May 2007 17:28:11 -0700, Don Lancaster <don@tinaja.com >
wrote:

>Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>> Revision wrote:
>>
>>>>Start at the beginning. You have a weight on top of a mountain, how
>>>>do you get it down the mountain?
>>>>
>>>>Throw it off and let it roll down if you can.
>>>
>>>Yeah, maybe a track... stuff the goods in a ball and roll it down. Or a
>>>catapult.
>>
>>
>>
>> Don't forget to add enough cats to the load in the "Cat-A-Pult" to
>> make sure it lands right side up.
>>
>>
>What happens if you put butter on the top side of the cat?
>
My Shepheard will pick it up and carry it up and down the mountain.
Ok, you will have to install a new cat after each trip.. but that's
probably good to keep the work safety authorities happy.

--

Regards, Frank

Date: 30 May 2007 02:38:13
From: Revision
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

> Don't forget to add enough cats to
> make sure it lands right side up.

http://www.dealingtime.com/upload/files/79/medieval-cat-apult-sm.JPG

Fore!

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 29 May 2007 11:52:12
From: Brian Whatcott
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

Date: 29 May 2007 04:42:29
From: Sue...
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On May 29, 8:28 am, Greg Locock <gregloc...@yahoo.com.au > wrote:
> dances_with_barka...@yahoo.com wrote in news:1180432406.155025.128400
> @n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
>
> > i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
> > wind-up clock motor?
>
> > the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
> > of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
> > paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
> > very much transport.
>
> A Flying fox. Used in Italy to get supplies to and from mountain tops.
>
> Two cables, one pulley, two carriers and a long bit of rope.

Fantastic! Throw a few clothes-pins in the package
and it is also a clothes dryer for sweaty cycle shorts.

Sue...

Date: 29 May 2007 04:35:10
From: Sue...
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On May 29, 8:19 am, Ron Hardin <rhhar...@mindspring.com > wrote:
> Use a blimp.

That seems commercially feasible for the logging
industry but only a few bicycle sheds will accomodate
a blimp without knocking out a few walls.

Sue...

> --
> Ron Hardin
> rhhar...@mindspring.com
>
> On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

Date: 29 May 2007 11:28:51
From: Greg Locock
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com wrote in news:1180432406.155025.128400
@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com:

> i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
> wind-up clock motor?
>
> the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
> of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
> paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
> very much transport.

A Flying fox. Used in Italy to get supplies to and from mountain tops.

Two cables, one pulley, two carriers and a long bit of rope.

Date: 29 May 2007 21:10:47
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

> dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com wrote:
>> i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
>> wind-up clock motor?
>> the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
>> of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
>> paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
>> very much transport.

Greg Locock wrote:
> A Flying fox. Used in Italy to get supplies to and from mountain tops.
> Two cables, one pulley, two carriers and a long bit of rope.

I missed the original post but a regular customer of ours used to grow
it on a mountain on Kauai and bring it back in a fake leg cast - smeared
with cat pee to dissuade the dogs.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 29 May 2007 11:19:34
From: Ron Hardin
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

Use a blimp.
--
Ron Hardin
rhhardin@mindspring.com

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

Date: 29 May 2007 04:17:32
From: Sue...
Subject: Re: need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On May 29, 6:53 am, dances_with_barka...@yahoo.com wrote:
> i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
> wind-up clock motor?
>
> the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
> of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
> paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
> very much transport.
>
> the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
> the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
> on the spring-storage.
>
> at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
> lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
> energy.
>
> Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
> that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
> too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
> might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
> doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
> back up.
>
> Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
> commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
> this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.

I have been thinking along the same lines.
Compressed air or chemical batteries appear to be real
loosers due to the heat loss.

Mechanical springs or flywheels would seem to offer a lot
more efficiency. Flywheels have to be heavy
or fast. Neither characteristic is very attractive for a vehicle.

1) How hot does the spring get when it is cycled?
2) How many times can the spring be cycled 'till fatigue
diminishes its capacity?

With that information, it should be easy to compare the
energy density with other mechanisms.

A few haphazard google searches hasn't offered up the answers
to those questions in the manner to which I become accustomed
so I may have to dust off some old texts like "How to do
research" or "Real work as a moral virtue" >:-)

Sue...