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Main
Date: 31 Aug 2007 14:36:51
From: Rik O'Shea
Subject: star fangled nut alternative
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Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
steerer fork ?
Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case ?
Thanks & regards
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Date: 05 Sep 2007 20:16:31
From: Hank Wirtz
Subject: Re: The World according to Brandt!
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On Sep 4, 1:18 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Sep 4, 11:47 am, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>
> > Michael Press writes:
>
> <Snipped for brevity>
>
> > >>>>> Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset for
> > >>>>> threaded steering tubes. The top bearing race is threaded on the
> > >>>>> inside, knurled on the outside and toothed on the top. It is a
> > >>>>> finger feel adjustment to get a perfect headset bearing
> > >>>>> pre-load. A toothed and keyed ring settles on the top bearing
> > >>>>> race to lock its angular position. There is a one tooth
> > >>>>> difference between the top bearing race and the locking ring for
> > >>>>> a vernier adjustment: 41:40. The lock ring is held down with a
> > >>>>> 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be torqued down with any old
> > >>>>> thing; the top bearing race is going nowhere. A beautiful,
> > >>>>> totally orthogonal system made from durable, heavily nickel and
> > >>>>> chrome plated steel. It is easier to set the preload with this
> > >>>>> head-set than with thread-less head-sets.
> > >>>> Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't we see it
> > >>>> anymore?
>
> Above, we see Jobst Brandt contending that a product, in this case a
> Stronglight headset with some novel features, failed to survive in the
> marketplace *because it lacked technical merit*.
>
Except for one thing: the toothed headset DOESN'T keep adjustment.
I've had a couple of these, and the toothed lock washer always tried
to creep around the steerer tube. Maybe it's better on an English
steerer (notched) than a French one (ground flat), but I've always had
to use a pair of wide-mouth slip-joint pliers to hold the top race
while adjusting a Stronglight Competition.
When I got my PX-10 repainted, I switched to an A9.
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Date: 04 Sep 2007 13:18:25
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: The World according to Brandt!
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On Sep 4, 11:47 am, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Michael Press writes:
<Snipped for brevity >
> >>>>> Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset for
> >>>>> threaded steering tubes. The top bearing race is threaded on the
> >>>>> inside, knurled on the outside and toothed on the top. It is a
> >>>>> finger feel adjustment to get a perfect headset bearing
> >>>>> pre-load. A toothed and keyed ring settles on the top bearing
> >>>>> race to lock its angular position. There is a one tooth
> >>>>> difference between the top bearing race and the locking ring for
> >>>>> a vernier adjustment: 41:40. The lock ring is held down with a
> >>>>> 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be torqued down with any old
> >>>>> thing; the top bearing race is going nowhere. A beautiful,
> >>>>> totally orthogonal system made from durable, heavily nickel and
> >>>>> chrome plated steel. It is easier to set the preload with this
> >>>>> head-set than with thread-less head-sets.
> >>>> Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't we see it
> >>>> anymore?
Above, we see Jobst Brandt contending that a product, in this case a
Stronglight headset with some novel features, failed to survive in the
marketplace *because it lacked technical merit*.
Then, in the very same post he whines:
> That MA-2 rims are no longer available is twofold:
>
> They are not visibly aerodynamic and not new. People who no longer
> ride steel frame bicycles also want space age wheels and the MA-2 does
> not fill that demand although it is more durable, light weight, and
> dissipates brake heat better than the deep-V, non-metallic rims that
> replaced it.
>
> Solomon Ski bindings took only the name of Mavic and dropped
> everything that the company had, turning the business into a fad
> market with all sorts of gimmicks <SUP> and the rest of the acronyms
> along with rim names that challenge spelling and pronunciation:
> Ksyrium.
>
> All of their products cost substantially more than the products that
> existed immediately before introduction of the fashionable ones.
> Bicyclists stormed to their offerings, showing what marketing can do.
>
So Jobst, when a product you approve of is discontinued, it is due to
the evil forces of marketing. But, when other products fail to survive
in the marketplace, it is due to a lack of technical merit.....is that
your position?
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Date: 06 Sep 2007 08:31:42
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: The World according to Brandt!
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On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:18:25 -0700, Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> So Jobst, when a product you approve of is discontinued, it is due to
> the evil forces of marketing. But, when other products fail to survive
> in the marketplace, it is due to a lack of technical merit.....is that
> your position?
Anyone who's ever looked at a bike ad should take personal responsibility
for the disappearance of Jobst's favourite rim. I'm guilty!
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Date: 03 Sep 2007 21:11:54
From: Joe Riel
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
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Tom Ace <tom239@gmail.com > writes:
> On Sep 3, 7:18 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> > I remember having a Stronglight Competition headset like
>> > you describe, except that the race and lockring had the
>> > same number of teeth. See http://tinyurl.com/27z4on
>>
>> Are you sure that the number of teeth was equal?
>
> In the headset I once had, yes.
> The photo I cited doesn't show all the teeth,
> but I don't see the parts could mate up if
> the tooth counts don't match.
>
>> Here is a better explanation than I could write
>> up in a couple hours.
>>
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernier>
>>
>> Let me know if and where the explanation fails you.
>
> The scales on a caliper are just markings on the side,
> they aren't teeth that determine how two parts engage.
>
> The teeth in the headset race and in the lockring have
> to engage. I just don't see how they can come together
> if one has 40 teeth and the other has 41.
I don't recall that type of headset being any easier to adjust.
Preventing the cup nut from turning relative to the stem isn't
particularly difficult if you know how, the problem is that the
tightening takes up the backlash in the threads, so if you
start with the bearing adjusted "just so," after tightening
it will be too tight.
Maybe there was a better way to adjust headsets; I always inserted and
tightened an old stem and then slipped the steerer tube of an old fork
through the handlebar clamp. That provided a fixed reference and made
it easy to hold cup nut fixed relative to the stem (hold the old fork
and the wrench with the left hand, tighten the lock nut with the
right). I would mark the starting angular position of the cup nut on
the stem. After tightening, if it needed an adjustment I'd loosen it,
then reposition relative to the mark. By sliding the (loose) fork out
of the handlebar clamp between adjustments, it was easy to gauge the
tightness because the moment of inertia was low (no handlebars). Once
the bearing adjustment was finished, I'd remove the old stem and
install the normal stem, with handlebars.
--
Joe Riel
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Date: 03 Sep 2007 20:01:41
From: Tom Ace
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
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On Sep 3, 7:18 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> > I remember having a Stronglight Competition headset like
> > you describe, except that the race and lockring had the
> > same number of teeth. See http://tinyurl.com/27z4on
>
> Are you sure that the number of teeth was equal?
In the headset I once had, yes.
The photo I cited doesn't show all the teeth,
but I don't see the parts could mate up if
the tooth counts don't match.
> Here is a better explanation than I could write
> up in a couple hours.
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernier>
>
> Let me know if and where the explanation fails you.
The scales on a caliper are just markings on the side,
they aren't teeth that determine how two parts engage.
The teeth in the headset race and in the lockring have
to engage. I just don't see how they can come together
if one has 40 teeth and the other has 41.
Tom Ace
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Date: 03 Sep 2007 20:49:44
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
In article
<1188874901.160169.151050@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com >,
Tom Ace <tom239@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Sep 3, 7:18 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > > I remember having a Stronglight Competition headset like
> > > you describe, except that the race and lockring had the
> > > same number of teeth. See http://tinyurl.com/27z4on
> >
> > Are you sure that the number of teeth was equal?
>
> In the headset I once had, yes.
> The photo I cited doesn't show all the teeth,
> but I don't see the parts could mate up if
> the tooth counts don't match.
>
> > Here is a better explanation than I could write
> > up in a couple hours.
> >
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernier>
> >
> > Let me know if and where the explanation fails you.
>
> The scales on a caliper are just markings on the side,
> they aren't teeth that determine how two parts engage.
>
> The teeth in the headset race and in the lockring have
> to engage. I just don't see how they can come together
> if one has 40 teeth and the other has 41.
They mate tooth to valley along a portion of their
respective circumferences. Diametrically
opposite the teeth are out of phase--tooth on tooth.
This is sufficient for the lock ring to hold
the bearing race against rotating; as the lock
ring is keyed to a flat on the steerer tube.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 04 Sep 2007 02:40:36
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
(TA)
>>>> I remember having a Stronglight Competition headset like
>>>> you describe, except that the race and lockring had the
>>>> same number of teeth. See http://tinyurl.com/27z4on
(MP)
>>> Are you sure that the number of teeth was equal?
> Tom Ace <tom239@gmail.com> wrote:
>> In the headset I once had, yes.
>> The photo I cited doesn't show all the teeth,
>> but I don't see the parts could mate up if
>> the tooth counts don't match.
>>Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>> Here is a better explanation than I could write
>>> up in a couple hours.
>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernier>
>>> Let me know if and where the explanation fails you.
> Tom Ace <tom239@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The scales on a caliper are just markings on the side,
>> they aren't teeth that determine how two parts engage.
>> The teeth in the headset race and in the lockring have
>> to engage. I just don't see how they can come together
>> if one has 40 teeth and the other has 41.
Michael Press wrote:
> They mate tooth to valley along a portion of their
> respective circumferences. Diametrically
> opposite the teeth are out of phase--tooth on tooth.
> This is sufficient for the lock ring to hold
> the bearing race against rotating; as the lock
> ring is keyed to a flat on the steerer tube.
Stronglight V.4 headsets, among the very best threaded headsets ever
made, have the same number of notches on the flatted lockring as on the
upper bearing race.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 03 Sep 2007 18:29:19
From: Tom Ace
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
On Sep 1, 8:38 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset
> for threaded steering tubes. The top bearing race is
> threaded on the inside, knurled on the outside and
> toothed on the top. It is a finger feel adjustment to
> get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed and
> keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its
> angular position. There is a one tooth difference
> between the top bearing race and the locking ring for a
> vernier adjustment: 41:40. The lock ring is held down
> with a 5/16" nut.
I'm not understanding how the 41:40 arrangement worked,
can you describe it in more detail?
I remember having a Stronglight Competition headset like
you describe, except that the race and lockring had the
same number of teeth. See http://tinyurl.com/27z4on
Tom Ace
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Date: 03 Sep 2007 19:18:56
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
In article
<1188869359.597655.226030@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com >
,
Tom Ace <tom239@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Sep 1, 8:38 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset
> > for threaded steering tubes. The top bearing race is
> > threaded on the inside, knurled on the outside and
> > toothed on the top. It is a finger feel adjustment to
> > get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed and
> > keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its
> > angular position. There is a one tooth difference
> > between the top bearing race and the locking ring for a
> > vernier adjustment: 41:40. The lock ring is held down
> > with a 5/16" nut.
>
> I'm not understanding how the 41:40 arrangement worked,
> can you describe it in more detail?
>
> I remember having a Stronglight Competition headset like
> you describe, except that the race and lockring had the
> same number of teeth. See http://tinyurl.com/27z4on
Are you sure that the number of teeth was equal?
(First I should correct the nut flat dimension.
That is 1" 1/4, not 5/16". Sorry.)
Here is a better explanation than I could write
up in a couple hours.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernier >
Let me know if and where the explanation fails you.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 04 Sep 2007 03:37:35
From: Clive George
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
"Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote in message
news:rubrum-8292A5.19185603092007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net...
> In article
> <1188869359.597655.226030@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>
> ,
> Tom Ace <tom239@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sep 1, 8:38 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset
>> > for threaded steering tubes. The top bearing race is
>> > threaded on the inside, knurled on the outside and
>> > toothed on the top. It is a finger feel adjustment to
>> > get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed and
>> > keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its
>> > angular position. There is a one tooth difference
>> > between the top bearing race and the locking ring for a
>> > vernier adjustment: 41:40. The lock ring is held down
>> > with a 5/16" nut.
>>
>> I'm not understanding how the 41:40 arrangement worked,
>> can you describe it in more detail?
>>
>> I remember having a Stronglight Competition headset like
>> you describe, except that the race and lockring had the
>> same number of teeth. See http://tinyurl.com/27z4on
>
> Are you sure that the number of teeth was equal?
>
> (First I should correct the nut flat dimension.
> That is 1" 1/4, not 5/16". Sorry.)
>
> Here is a better explanation than I could write
> up in a couple hours.
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernier>
>
> Let me know if and where the explanation fails you.
I understand verniers happily, but am still wondering a bit about your
toothed arrangement. Are you saying there are four toothed faces, two with
41 teeth and two with 40? Or something else? I must admit, the thing which I
keep thinking about is the pair of ratchets in a DT/Hugi hub - each face
must have the same number of teeth, otherwise they won't mesh.
(I still think threadless headsets are great because they're fettlabe with
allen keys like I tend to have with me, and don't involve tedious lockrings
with the big spanners)
cheers,
clive
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Date: 03 Sep 2007 20:46:02
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
In article <13dphbe38fil5a7@corp.supernews.com >,
"Clive George" <clive@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk > wrote:
> "Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:rubrum-8292A5.19185603092007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net...
> > In article
> > <1188869359.597655.226030@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>
> > ,
> > Tom Ace <tom239@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sep 1, 8:38 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset
> >> > for threaded steering tubes. The top bearing race is
> >> > threaded on the inside, knurled on the outside and
> >> > toothed on the top. It is a finger feel adjustment to
> >> > get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed and
> >> > keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its
> >> > angular position. There is a one tooth difference
> >> > between the top bearing race and the locking ring for a
> >> > vernier adjustment: 41:40. The lock ring is held down
> >> > with a 5/16" nut.
> >>
> >> I'm not understanding how the 41:40 arrangement worked,
> >> can you describe it in more detail?
> >>
> >> I remember having a Stronglight Competition headset like
> >> you describe, except that the race and lockring had the
> >> same number of teeth. See http://tinyurl.com/27z4on
> >
> > Are you sure that the number of teeth was equal?
> >
> > (First I should correct the nut flat dimension.
> > That is 1" 1/4, not 5/16". Sorry.)
> >
> > Here is a better explanation than I could write
> > up in a couple hours.
> >
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernier>
> >
> > Let me know if and where the explanation fails you.
>
> I understand verniers happily, but am still wondering a bit about your
> toothed arrangement. Are you saying there are four toothed faces, two with
> 41 teeth and two with 40? Or something else?
The top face of the top bearing race has 40 teeth.
The lock ring has 41 teeth. There are 41 locked positions
of the top bearing race for each 1/40 th of a rotation
of the top bearing race.
> I must admit, the thing which I
> keep thinking about is the pair of ratchets in a DT/Hugi hub - each face
> must have the same number of teeth, otherwise they won't mesh.
>
> (I still think threadless headsets are great because they're fettlabe with
> allen keys like I tend to have with me, and don't involve tedious lockrings
> with the big spanners)
I started in because this threadless headset system
is easier than all other threadless headset systems.
The top bearing race is rotationally locked
before torquing down the hold down nut. The hold
down nut is 1" 1/4 and can be turned with a pliers
if necessary. No special headset wrenches needed.
Use 18 " stilson wrench if you like.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | |
Date: 04 Sep 2007 14:53:08
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
In article
<rubrum-13C905.20460203092007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.
net >,
Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote:
> In article <13dphbe38fil5a7@corp.supernews.com>,
> "Clive George" <clive@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > "Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> > news:rubrum-8292A5.19185603092007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net...
> > > In article
> > > <1188869359.597655.226030@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>
> > > ,
> > > Tom Ace <tom239@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Sep 1, 8:38 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset
> > >> > for threaded steering tubes. The top bearing race is
> > >> > threaded on the inside, knurled on the outside and
> > >> > toothed on the top. It is a finger feel adjustment to
> > >> > get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed and
> > >> > keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its
> > >> > angular position. There is a one tooth difference
> > >> > between the top bearing race and the locking ring for a
> > >> > vernier adjustment: 41:40. The lock ring is held down
> > >> > with a 5/16" nut.
> > >>
> > >> I'm not understanding how the 41:40 arrangement worked,
> > >> can you describe it in more detail?
> > >>
> > >> I remember having a Stronglight Competition headset like
> > >> you describe, except that the race and lockring had the
> > >> same number of teeth. See http://tinyurl.com/27z4on
> > >
> > > Are you sure that the number of teeth was equal?
> > >
> > > (First I should correct the nut flat dimension.
> > > That is 1" 1/4, not 5/16". Sorry.)
> > >
> > > Here is a better explanation than I could write
> > > up in a couple hours.
> > >
> > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernier>
> > >
> > > Let me know if and where the explanation fails you.
> >
> > I understand verniers happily, but am still wondering a bit about your
> > toothed arrangement. Are you saying there are four toothed faces, two with
> > 41 teeth and two with 40? Or something else?
>
> The top face of the top bearing race has 40 teeth.
> The lock ring has 41 teeth. There are 41 locked positions
> of the top bearing race for each 1/40 th of a rotation
> of the top bearing race.
>
> > I must admit, the thing which I
> > keep thinking about is the pair of ratchets in a DT/Hugi hub - each face
> > must have the same number of teeth, otherwise they won't mesh.
> >
> > (I still think threadless headsets are great because they're fettlabe with
> > allen keys like I tend to have with me, and don't involve tedious lockrings
> > with the big spanners)
>
> I started in because this threadless headset system
> is easier than all other threadless headset systems.
Dang. Should be "threaded" in both instances.
> The top bearing race is rotationally locked
> before torquing down the hold down nut. The hold
> down nut is 1" 1/4 and can be turned with a pliers
> if necessary. No special headset wrenches needed.
> Use 18 " stilson wrench if you like.
--
Michael Press
|
| |
Date: 03 Sep 2007 04:05:04
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
On Sep 2, 10:18 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle writes:
> >>> Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset for threaded
> >>> steering tubes. The top bearing race is threaded on the inside,
> >>> knurled on the outside and toothed on the top. It is a finger feel
> >>> adjustment to get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed
> >>> and keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its angular
> >>> position. There is a one tooth difference between the top bearing
> >>> race and the locking ring for a vernier adjustment: 41:40. The
> >>> lock ring is held down with a 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be
> >>> torqued down with any old thing; the top bearing race is going
> >>> nowhere. A beautiful, totally orthogonal system made from durable,
> >>> heavily nickel and chrome plated steel. It is easier to set the
> >>> preload with this head-set than with thread-less head-sets.
> >> Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't we see it
> >> anymore?
> > Why don't we see Mavic MA-2s, or similar rims, anymore, Jobst?
>
> Oh? I see you didn't include why we don't see them anymore, the part
> in which I outlined the flaws of that design and the advantages of
> dumping quill stems. Nice selective editing. Besides, those head
> sets didn't even make it before threadless steertubes.
>
The contortions you will perform in order to avoid answering a simple
question!!!!
Let's try again, shall we? You contend that the Sronglight design
mentioned by Mr. Press failed to survive in the marketplace because it
lacked merit. So merit is the determining factor? Is so, why are Mavic
MA-2s, and similar rims, no longer available? Were they lacking in
merit?
Do try to answer the question!
|
| |
Date: 02 Sep 2007 19:40:16
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
On Sep 2, 9:02 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Michael Press writes:
> > Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset for threaded
> > steering tubes. The top bearing race is threaded on the inside,
> > knurled on the outside and toothed on the top. It is a finger feel
> > adjustment to get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed and
> > keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its angular
> > position. There is a one tooth difference between the top bearing
> > race and the locking ring for a vernier adjustment: 41:40. The lock
> > ring is held down with a 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be torqued
> > down with any old thing; the top bearing race is going nowhere. A
> > beautiful, totally orthogonal system made from durable, heavily
> > nickel and chrome plated steel. It is easier to set the preload
> > with this head-set than with thread-less head-sets.
>
> Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't we see it
> anymore?
Why don't we see Mavic MA-2s, or similar rims, anymore, Jobst?
|
| | |
Date: 03 Sep 2007 03:18:55
From:
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
Ozark Bicycle writes:
>>> Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset for threaded
>>> steering tubes. The top bearing race is threaded on the inside,
>>> knurled on the outside and toothed on the top. It is a finger feel
>>> adjustment to get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed
>>> and keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its angular
>>> position. There is a one tooth difference between the top bearing
>>> race and the locking ring for a vernier adjustment: 41:40. The
>>> lock ring is held down with a 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be
>>> torqued down with any old thing; the top bearing race is going
>>> nowhere. A beautiful, totally orthogonal system made from durable,
>>> heavily nickel and chrome plated steel. It is easier to set the
>>> preload with this head-set than with thread-less head-sets.
>> Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't we see it
>> anymore?
> Why don't we see Mavic MA-2s, or similar rims, anymore, Jobst?
Oh? I see you didn't include why we don't see them anymore, the part
in which I outlined the flaws of that design and the advantages of
dumping quill stems. Nice selective editing. Besides, those head
sets didn't even make it before threadless steertubes.
Jobst Brandt
|
| |
Date: 02 Sep 2007 00:03:09
From: Gary Young
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 23:07:46 -0500, Gary Young wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 13:46:37 -0400, Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming
> Edition ® wrote:
>
>> "Rik O'Shea" <rikoshea@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1188571011.974863.120030@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
>>> steerer fork ?
>>> Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case ?
>>>
>>> Thanks & regards
>>>
>>
>> Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed down)?
>> http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm
>
> I didn't have much luck getting the preload correct using that method. But
> QBP/Problem Solvers make a couple of parts that make such a setup easy. An
> expanding spacer:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3exgtg
>
> and a locking spacer:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3exgtg
>
> (You could use a seatpost collar instead of the locking spacer, but they
> often have a lip that would need to be filed off.)
>
> USE also makes an expanding spacer called the Ring-Go-Star:
>
> http://www.glorycycles.com/userihe.html
>
> Threadless stems are often knocked for lacking an easy way to adjust the
> height of the handlebars, but with this setup, that's not the case. I
> found it very helpful when trying out various positions on a new bike.
Come to think of it, you could use just the expanding spacer (as in the
Ring-Go-Star picture) if all you want to do is avoid a star nut and aren't
after height adjustability.
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| |
Date: 01 Sep 2007 23:07:46
From: Gary Young
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 13:46:37 -0400, Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming
Edition ® wrote:
> "Rik O'Shea" <rikoshea@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1188571011.974863.120030@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
>> steerer fork ?
>> Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case ?
>>
>> Thanks & regards
>>
>
> Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed down)?
> http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm
I didn't have much luck getting the preload correct using that method. But
QBP/Problem Solvers make a couple of parts that make such a setup easy. An
expanding spacer:
http://tinyurl.com/3exgtg
and a locking spacer:
http://tinyurl.com/3exgtg
(You could use a seatpost collar instead of the locking spacer, but they
often have a lip that would need to be filed off.)
USE also makes an expanding spacer called the Ring-Go-Star:
http://www.glorycycles.com/userihe.html
Threadless stems are often knocked for lacking an easy way to adjust the
height of the handlebars, but with this setup, that's not the case. I
found it very helpful when trying out various positions on a new bike.
|
| |
Date: 01 Sep 2007 13:46:37
From: Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
"Rik O'Shea" <rikoshea@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1188571011.974863.120030@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>
> Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
> steerer fork ?
> Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case ?
>
> Thanks & regards
>
Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed down)?
http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm
|
| | |
Date: 01 Sep 2007 20:06:05
From:
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
someone writes:
>> Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
>> steerer fork?
>> Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case?
> Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed down)?
http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm
I suppose there is a reason for not using a star-nut but that is one
of the features of the threadless steertube that is a great leap
forward. The hex-drive screw in the cap enables precise bearing
adjustment that is clamped in place by the two stem screws, making the
inconvenient octagonal, one-foot long flat wrenches that always
overshoot a thing of the past.
A well designed stem uses the same hex-key for all three screws while
weighing about 1/100 of the old head adjustment wrenches. You must be
able to find a star-nut that fits. These are not something the
bicycle industry invented by the tube ID may be a problem.
When buying a stem for a threadless steertube, I believe the stem
should have two steertube clamp screws and four bar clamp screws to
give redundancy such that failure of one screw cannot separate the
bars from the bicycle probably when control is most critical. Old
quill stems with a single screw failure left one with a loose
handlebar with which one could bring the bicycle to a safe stop.
Jobst Brandt
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| | | |
Date: 02 Sep 2007 03:38:02
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
In article <46d9c62d$0$14142$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> someone writes:
>
> >> Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
> >> steerer fork?
>
> >> Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case?
>
> > Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed down)?
>
> http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm
>
> I suppose there is a reason for not using a star-nut but that is one
> of the features of the threadless steertube that is a great leap
> forward. The hex-drive screw in the cap enables precise bearing
> adjustment that is clamped in place by the two stem screws, making the
> inconvenient octagonal, one-foot long flat wrenches that always
> overshoot a thing of the past.
Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset
for threaded steering tubes. The top bearing race is
threaded on the inside, knurled on the outside and
toothed on the top. It is a finger feel adjustment to
get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed and
keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its
angular position. There is a one tooth difference
between the top bearing race and the locking ring for a
vernier adjustment: 41:40. The lock ring is held down
with a 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be torqued down
with any old thing; the top bearing race is going
nowhere. A beautiful, totally orthogonal system made
from durable, heavily nickel and chrome plated steel.
It is easier to set the preload with this head-set than
with thread-less head-sets.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | |
Date: 03 Sep 2007 02:02:17
From:
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
Michael Press writes:
>>>> Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
>>>> steerer fork?
>>>> Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case?
>>> Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed down)?
http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm
>> I suppose there is a reason for not using a star-nut but that is
>> one of the features of the threadless steertube that is a great
>> leap forward. The hex-drive screw in the cap enables precise
>> bearing adjustment that is clamped in place by the two stem screws,
>> making the inconvenient octagonal, one-foot long flat wrenches that
>> always overshoot a thing of the past.
> Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset for threaded
> steering tubes. The top bearing race is threaded on the inside,
> knurled on the outside and toothed on the top. It is a finger feel
> adjustment to get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed and
> keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its angular
> position. There is a one tooth difference between the top bearing
> race and the locking ring for a vernier adjustment: 41:40. The lock
> ring is held down with a 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be torqued
> down with any old thing; the top bearing race is going nowhere. A
> beautiful, totally orthogonal system made from durable, heavily
> nickel and chrome plated steel. It is easier to set the preload
> with this head-set than with thread-less head-sets.
Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't we see it
anymore? The nut that secured the whole mess had a thread as did the
adjustable race. Thread clearance made that adjustment more as
difficult than the standard locknut that was tightened from snug to
locked on conventional head sets. Thread clearance (backlash) is
several times the range in which one can allow in bearing adjustment.
That it is easier than with a threadless system is not my experience
nor that of mechanics at the two largest shops in my area.
Beyond that, Stronglight did not address the stem problems I
mentioned. For someone who doesn't use handlebars forcefully, the
quill stem worked but there are enough riders who encountered the
problems I listed to give bicycle shops and frame builders plenty of
work.
Jobst Brandt
|
| | | | | |
Date: 03 Sep 2007 12:46:09
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
In article <46db6b29$0$14067$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Michael Press writes:
>
> >>>> Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
> >>>> steerer fork?
>
> >>>> Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case?
>
> >>> Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed down)?
>
> http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm
>
> >> I suppose there is a reason for not using a star-nut but that is
> >> one of the features of the threadless steertube that is a great
> >> leap forward. The hex-drive screw in the cap enables precise
> >> bearing adjustment that is clamped in place by the two stem screws,
> >> making the inconvenient octagonal, one-foot long flat wrenches that
> >> always overshoot a thing of the past.
>
> > Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset for threaded
> > steering tubes. The top bearing race is threaded on the inside,
> > knurled on the outside and toothed on the top. It is a finger feel
> > adjustment to get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed and
> > keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its angular
> > position. There is a one tooth difference between the top bearing
> > race and the locking ring for a vernier adjustment: 41:40. The lock
> > ring is held down with a 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be torqued
> > down with any old thing; the top bearing race is going nowhere. A
> > beautiful, totally orthogonal system made from durable, heavily
> > nickel and chrome plated steel. It is easier to set the preload
> > with this head-set than with thread-less head-sets.
>
> Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't we see it
> anymore?
If you had to replace your bicycle frame, what
regularly produced manufacturer's frame would you obtain?
Where can I get a new pair of single pivot side pull brakes?
Where can I get a box section rim with sockets and eyelets?
> The nut that secured the whole mess had a thread as did the
> adjustable race. Thread clearance made that adjustment more as
> difficult than the standard locknut that was tightened from snug to
> locked on conventional head sets. Thread clearance (backlash) is
> several times the range in which one can allow in bearing adjustment.
> That it is easier than with a threadless system is not my experience
> nor that of mechanics at the two largest shops in my area.
The particular threaded headset system I describe is
very simple to get the pre-load correct the first time
> Beyond that, Stronglight did not address the stem problems I
> mentioned. For someone who doesn't use handlebars forcefully, the
> quill stem worked but there are enough riders who encountered the
> problems I listed to give bicycle shops and frame builders plenty of
> work.
I am not addressing the stem to steering tube connection
either. You are reading in something that is not there.
I expect you to be more careful about these things than most.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 03 Sep 2007 22:05:19
From:
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
Michael Press writes:
>>>>>> Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
>>>>>> steerer fork?
>>>>>> Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case?
>>>>> Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed down)?
http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm
>>>> I suppose there is a reason for not using a star-nut but that is
>>>> one of the features of the threadless steertube that is a great
>>>> leap forward. The hex-drive screw in the cap enables precise
>>>> bearing adjustment that is clamped in place by the two stem screws,
>>>> making the inconvenient octagonal, one-foot long flat wrenches that
>>>> always overshoot a thing of the past.
>>> Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset for threaded
>>> steering tubes. The top bearing race is threaded on the inside,
>>> knurled on the outside and toothed on the top. It is a finger feel
>>> adjustment to get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed and
>>> keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its angular
>>> position. There is a one tooth difference between the top bearing
>>> race and the locking ring for a vernier adjustment: 41:40. The lock
>>> ring is held down with a 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be torqued
>>> down with any old thing; the top bearing race is going nowhere. A
>>> beautiful, totally orthogonal system made from durable, heavily
>>> nickel and chrome plated steel. It is easier to set the preload
>>> with this head-set than with thread-less head-sets.
>> Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't we see it
>> anymore?
> If you had to replace your bicycle frame, what regularly produced
> manufacturer's frame would you obtain? Where can I get a new pair
> of single pivot side pull brakes? Where can I get a box section rim
> with sockets and eyelets?
I have no regular sources for all that. Even the frames I have ridden
over the years were all custom made, first by Cinelli, then Peter
Johnson and Tom Ritchey. I have a stash of MA-2 rims and Avocet and
Continental slick tires, and a bunch of other items that are no longer
in fashion. That's where I get my equipment.
>> The nut that secured the whole mess had a thread as did the
>> adjustable race. Thread clearance made that adjustment more as
>> difficult than the standard locknut that was tightened from snug to
>> locked on conventional head sets. Thread clearance (backlash) is
>> several times the range in which one can allow in bearing
>> adjustment. That it is easier than with a threadless system is not
>> my experience nor that of mechanics at the two largest shops in my
>> area.
> The particular threaded headset system I describe is very simple to
> get the pre-load correct the first time.
Is that "very" or very very" simple? How simple is very in comparison
to the threadless method? I think that is what is at the bottom of
this.
I've adjusted these and found them just as difficult as old Campagnolo
or Shimano ones that require the 12" long octagonal flat wrenches. In
contrast, I just unpacked my bicycle, loosened the stem clamp bolts to
rotate the forks to face forward and in line with the stem and
tightened the two clamp screws. No head bearing adjustment was
needed, and if it had, it would have required only turning the cap
retainer screw with the same hex key. "Very"!
>> Beyond that, Stronglight did not address the stem problems I
>> mentioned. For someone who doesn't use handlebars forcefully, the
>> quill stem worked but there are enough riders who encountered the
>> problems I listed to give bicycle shops and frame builders plenty
>> of work.
> I am not addressing the stem to steering tube connection either.
> You are reading in something that is not there. I expect you to be
> more careful about these things than most.
I just mentioned that because it is a design problem that the
threadless stem resolved, it being the main reason the change was
initiated. That head bearing adjustment became easier with it was a
bonus that I believe was not initially anticipated.
Jobst Brandt
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| | | | | | | |
Date: 03 Sep 2007 21:27:09
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
I reference this stem in another thread as well noting that "The cracks
developed over an unknown period of time, but two days before
it was discovered the owner and I did a 104 mile ride that included
gravel roads, steep hills and rough pavement. The owner had noticed
some creaking for a couple of rides prior to the 104 miler. This stem
survived at least 150 miles of riding approaching this condition. It
was in service for five years seeing about 4000 miles of use a year.
The owner is 6 feet tall and about 160 pounds. The stem is a 3ttt
"Forge Ahead." The handlebar was a 3ttt road bar, 25.8 mm diameter at
the clamp area according to my calipers.
"The stem was oriented so that the extension was flat (parallel to the
top tube). The major cracking is along the sides of the stem and
extending underneath, with another less-displaces crack extending around
the top. There is about 1 cm of intact metal separating the long cracks
on the side and the crack across the underside of the stem."
This sort of failure is something I have never seen with a quill stem
(doesn't mean it hasn't happened, of course):
http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/stemphotos/stem_right.png
http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/stemphotos/stem_bottom.png
http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/stemphotos/stem_clamp.png
http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/stemphotos/stem_left.png
http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/stemphotos/stem_left-under.png
Threadless stems seem to generally have larger diameter, thinner walled
extensions than the old quill stems. Does this have an impact on
failures?
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 03 Sep 2007 19:12:06
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
In article <46dc851f$0$14092$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Michael Press writes:
>
> >>>>>> Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
> >>>>>> steerer fork?
>
> >>>>>> Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case?
>
> >>>>> Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed down)?
>
> http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm
>
> >>>> I suppose there is a reason for not using a star-nut but that is
> >>>> one of the features of the threadless steertube that is a great
> >>>> leap forward. The hex-drive screw in the cap enables precise
> >>>> bearing adjustment that is clamped in place by the two stem screws,
> >>>> making the inconvenient octagonal, one-foot long flat wrenches that
> >>>> always overshoot a thing of the past.
>
> >>> Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset for threaded
> >>> steering tubes. The top bearing race is threaded on the inside,
> >>> knurled on the outside and toothed on the top. It is a finger feel
> >>> adjustment to get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed and
> >>> keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its angular
> >>> position. There is a one tooth difference between the top bearing
> >>> race and the locking ring for a vernier adjustment: 41:40. The lock
> >>> ring is held down with a 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be torqued
> >>> down with any old thing; the top bearing race is going nowhere. A
> >>> beautiful, totally orthogonal system made from durable, heavily
> >>> nickel and chrome plated steel. It is easier to set the preload
> >>> with this head-set than with thread-less head-sets.
>
> >> Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't we see it
> >> anymore?
>
> > If you had to replace your bicycle frame, what regularly produced
> > manufacturer's frame would you obtain? Where can I get a new pair
> > of single pivot side pull brakes? Where can I get a box section rim
> > with sockets and eyelets?
>
> I have no regular sources for all that. Even the frames I have ridden
> over the years were all custom made, first by Cinelli, then Peter
> Johnson and Tom Ritchey. I have a stash of MA-2 rims and Avocet and
> Continental slick tires, and a bunch of other items that are no longer
> in fashion. That's where I get my equipment.
You saying "Nice but no cigar! If it was such a
winner, why don't we see it anymore?" is a logical
fallacy. A well designed system has no expectation of
success in the marketplace. I expect better from you.
>
> >> The nut that secured the whole mess had a thread as did the
> >> adjustable race. Thread clearance made that adjustment more as
> >> difficult than the standard locknut that was tightened from snug to
> >> locked on conventional head sets. Thread clearance (backlash) is
> >> several times the range in which one can allow in bearing
> >> adjustment. That it is easier than with a threadless system is not
> >> my experience nor that of mechanics at the two largest shops in my
> >> area.
>
> > The particular threaded headset system I describe is very simple to
> > get the pre-load correct the first time.
>
> Is that "very" or very very" simple? How simple is very in comparison
> to the threadless method? I think that is what is at the bottom of
> this.
It is simple and precise. Set the top bearing cup and
lock it.
> I've adjusted these and found them just as difficult as old Campagnolo
> or Shimano ones that require the 12" long octagonal flat wrenches. In
> contrast, I just unpacked my bicycle, loosened the stem clamp bolts to
> rotate the forks to face forward and in line with the stem and
> tightened the two clamp screws. No head bearing adjustment was
> needed, and if it had, it would have required only turning the cap
> retainer screw with the same hex key. "Very"!
>
> >> Beyond that, Stronglight did not address the stem problems I
> >> mentioned. For someone who doesn't use handlebars forcefully, the
> >> quill stem worked but there are enough riders who encountered the
> >> problems I listed to give bicycle shops and frame builders plenty
> >> of work.
>
> > I am not addressing the stem to steering tube connection either.
> > You are reading in something that is not there. I expect you to be
> > more careful about these things than most.
>
> I just mentioned that because it is a design problem that the
> threadless stem resolved, it being the main reason the change was
> initiated. That head bearing adjustment became easier with it was a
> bonus that I believe was not initially anticipated.
You mentioned it gratuitously as if I contended the
matter, misleading others into the false idea that
I do contend the matter. There is no reason for you
to engage in such a misleading practice.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 04 Sep 2007 16:47:10
From:
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
Michael Press writes:
>>>>>>>> Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an
>>>>>>>> alloy steerer fork?
>>>>>>>> Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case?
>>>>>>> Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed
>>>>>>> down)?
http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm
>>>>>> I suppose there is a reason for not using a star-nut but that
>>>>>> is one of the features of the threadless steertube that is a
>>>>>> great leap forward. The hex-drive screw in the cap enables
>>>>>> precise bearing adjustment that is clamped in place by the two
>>>>>> stem screws, making the inconvenient octagonal, one-foot long
>>>>>> flat wrenches that always overshoot a thing of the past.
>>>>> Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset for
>>>>> threaded steering tubes. The top bearing race is threaded on the
>>>>> inside, knurled on the outside and toothed on the top. It is a
>>>>> finger feel adjustment to get a perfect headset bearing
>>>>> pre-load. A toothed and keyed ring settles on the top bearing
>>>>> race to lock its angular position. There is a one tooth
>>>>> difference between the top bearing race and the locking ring for
>>>>> a vernier adjustment: 41:40. The lock ring is held down with a
>>>>> 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be torqued down with any old
>>>>> thing; the top bearing race is going nowhere. A beautiful,
>>>>> totally orthogonal system made from durable, heavily nickel and
>>>>> chrome plated steel. It is easier to set the preload with this
>>>>> head-set than with thread-less head-sets.
>>>> Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't we see it
>>>> anymore?
>>> If you had to replace your bicycle frame, what regularly produced
>>> manufacturer's frame would you obtain? Where can I get a new pair
>>> of single pivot side pull brakes? Where can I get a box section
>>> rim with sockets and eyelets?
>> I have no regular sources for all that. Even the frames I have
>> ridden over the years were all custom made, first by Cinelli, then
>> Peter Johnson and Tom Ritchey. I have a stash of MA-2 rims and
>> Avocet and Continental slick tires, and a bunch of other items that
>> are no longer in fashion. That's where I get my equipment.
> You saying "Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't
> we see it anymore?" is a logical fallacy. A well designed system
> has no expectation of success in the marketplace. I expect better
> from you.
>>>> The nut that secured the whole mess had a thread as did the
>>>> adjustable race. Thread clearance made that adjustment more as
>>>> difficult than the standard locknut that was tightened from snug
>>>> to locked on conventional head sets. Thread clearance (backlash)
>>>> is several times the range in which one can allow in bearing
>>>> adjustment. That it is easier than with a threadless system is
>>>> not my experience nor that of mechanics at the two largest shops
>>>> in my area.
>>> The particular threaded headset system I describe is very simple
>>> to get the pre-load correct the first time.
>> Is that "very" or very very" simple? How simple is very in
>> comparison to the threadless method? I think that is what is at
>> the bottom of this.
> It is simple and precise. Set the top bearing cup and lock it.
As I mentined, threads have clearance and that clearance in the
knurled top cup is more than the precision of adjustment required for
ball bearings. If the top cup is adjusted to the right place,
tighening the top nut (with the foot lont headset wrench) will cause
the bearing to bind. Repeated guessing of ho much slop to leave
before tightening the lock nut is the same as the problem with other
headsets. Therefore, no one imitated the method and neither did
Stronglight:
http://tinyurl.com/ywskdg
>> I've adjusted these and found them just as difficult as old
>> Campagnolo or Shimano ones that require the 12" long octagonal flat
>> wrenches. In contrast, I just unpacked my bicycle, loosened the
>> stem clamp bolts to rotate the forks to face forward and in line
>> with the stem and tightened the two clamp screws. No head bearing
>> adjustment was needed, and if it had, it would have required only
>> turning the cap retainer screw with the same hex key. "Very"!
>>>> Beyond that, Stronglight did not address the stem problems I
>>>> mentioned. For someone who doesn't use handlebars forcefully,
>>>> the quill stem worked but there are enough riders who encountered
>>>> the problems I listed to give bicycle shops and frame builders
>>>> plenty of work.
>>> I am not addressing the stem to steering tube connection either.
>>> You are reading in something that is not there. I expect you to
>>> be more careful about these things than most.
>> I just mentioned that because it is a design problem that the
>> threadless stem resolved, it being the main reason the change was
>> initiated. That head bearing adjustment became easier with it was
>> a bonus that I believe was not initially anticipated.
> You mentioned it gratuitously as if I contended the matter,
> misleading others into the false idea that I do contend the matter.
> There is no reason for you to engage in such a misleading practice.
I responder to your implication that the threadless steertube is
primarily a headset problem rather than handlebar attachment method,
its primary goal.
That MA-2 rims are no longer available is twofold:
They are not visibly aerodynamic and not new. People who no longer
ride steel frame bicycles also want space age wheels and the MA-2 does
not fill that demand although it is more durable, light weight, and
dissipates brake heat better than the deep-V, non-metallic rims that
replaced it.
Solomon Ski bindings took only the name of Mavic and dropped
everything that the company had, turning the business into a fad
market with all sorts of gimmicks <SUP > and the rest of the acronyms
along with rim names that challenge spelling and pronunciation:
Ksyrium.
All of their products cost substantially more than the products that
existed immediately before introduction of the fashionable ones.
Bicyclists stormed to their offerings, showing what marketing can do.
Jobst Brandt
LocalWords: mentined cearance tighening lont
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 04 Sep 2007 14:52:06
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
In article <46dd8c0e$0$14069$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Michael Press writes:
>
> >>>>>>>> Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an
> >>>>>>>> alloy steerer fork?
>
> >>>>>>>> Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case?
>
> >>>>>>> Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed
> >>>>>>> down)?
>
> http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm
>
> >>>>>> I suppose there is a reason for not using a star-nut but that
> >>>>>> is one of the features of the threadless steertube that is a
> >>>>>> great leap forward. The hex-drive screw in the cap enables
> >>>>>> precise bearing adjustment that is clamped in place by the two
> >>>>>> stem screws, making the inconvenient octagonal, one-foot long
> >>>>>> flat wrenches that always overshoot a thing of the past.
>
> >>>>> Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset for
> >>>>> threaded steering tubes. The top bearing race is threaded on the
> >>>>> inside, knurled on the outside and toothed on the top. It is a
> >>>>> finger feel adjustment to get a perfect headset bearing
> >>>>> pre-load. A toothed and keyed ring settles on the top bearing
> >>>>> race to lock its angular position. There is a one tooth
> >>>>> difference between the top bearing race and the locking ring for
> >>>>> a vernier adjustment: 41:40. The lock ring is held down with a
> >>>>> 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be torqued down with any old
> >>>>> thing; the top bearing race is going nowhere. A beautiful,
> >>>>> totally orthogonal system made from durable, heavily nickel and
> >>>>> chrome plated steel. It is easier to set the preload with this
> >>>>> head-set than with thread-less head-sets.
>
> >>>> Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't we see it
> >>>> anymore?
>
> >>> If you had to replace your bicycle frame, what regularly produced
> >>> manufacturer's frame would you obtain? Where can I get a new pair
> >>> of single pivot side pull brakes? Where can I get a box section
> >>> rim with sockets and eyelets?
>
> >> I have no regular sources for all that. Even the frames I have
> >> ridden over the years were all custom made, first by Cinelli, then
> >> Peter Johnson and Tom Ritchey. I have a stash of MA-2 rims and
> >> Avocet and Continental slick tires, and a bunch of other items that
> >> are no longer in fashion. That's where I get my equipment.
>
> > You saying "Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't
> > we see it anymore?" is a logical fallacy. A well designed system
> > has no expectation of success in the marketplace. I expect better
> > from you.
>
> >>>> The nut that secured the whole mess had a thread as did the
> >>>> adjustable race. Thread clearance made that adjustment more as
> >>>> difficult than the standard locknut that was tightened from snug
> >>>> to locked on conventional head sets. Thread clearance (backlash)
> >>>> is several times the range in which one can allow in bearing
> >>>> adjustment. That it is easier than with a threadless system is
> >>>> not my experience nor that of mechanics at the two largest shops
> >>>> in my area.
>
> >>> The particular threaded headset system I describe is very simple
> >>> to get the pre-load correct the first time.
>
> >> Is that "very" or very very" simple? How simple is very in
> >> comparison to the threadless method? I think that is what is at
> >> the bottom of this.
>
> > It is simple and precise. Set the top bearing cup and lock it.
>
> As I mentined, threads have clearance and that clearance in the
> knurled top cup is more than the precision of adjustment required for
> ball bearings. If the top cup is adjusted to the right place,
> tighening the top nut (with the foot lont headset wrench) will cause
> the bearing to bind. Repeated guessing of ho much slop to leave
> before tightening the lock nut is the same as the problem with other
> headsets. Therefore, no one imitated the method and neither did
> Stronglight:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ywskdg
The adjustment in any threadless headset is subject to
thread lash. The system I describe does not require the
big wrench, and that is why I started this discussion.
I find the headset bearing preload quick and easy.
> >> I've adjusted these and found them just as difficult as old
> >> Campagnolo or Shimano ones that require the 12" long octagonal flat
> >> wrenches. In contrast, I just unpacked my bicycle, loosened the
> >> stem clamp bolts to rotate the forks to face forward and in line
> >> with the stem and tightened the two clamp screws. No head bearing
> >> adjustment was needed, and if it had, it would have required only
> >> turning the cap retainer screw with the same hex key. "Very"!
>
> >>>> Beyond that, Stronglight did not address the stem problems I
> >>>> mentioned. For someone who doesn't use handlebars forcefully,
> >>>> the quill stem worked but there are enough riders who encountered
> >>>> the problems I listed to give bicycle shops and frame builders
> >>>> plenty of work.
>
> >>> I am not addressing the stem to steering tube connection either.
> >>> You are reading in something that is not there. I expect you to
> >>> be more careful about these things than most.
>
> >> I just mentioned that because it is a design problem that the
> >> threadless stem resolved, it being the main reason the change was
> >> initiated. That head bearing adjustment became easier with it was
> >> a bonus that I believe was not initially anticipated.
>
> > You mentioned it gratuitously as if I contended the matter,
> > misleading others into the false idea that I do contend the matter.
> > There is no reason for you to engage in such a misleading practice.
>
> I responder to your implication that the threadless steertube is
> primarily a headset problem rather than handlebar attachment method,
> its primary goal.
First demonstrate the implication. But you cannot
because I made no such implication. Now you say I
implied something, but you did not then. You are
backing and filling.
> That MA-2 rims are no longer available is twofold:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We know all that.
What you do not address is your assertion that if the
system I described were any good the manufacturers
would be building it now. A good system has no
expectation of success in the marketplace. You are
busted for logical fallacy.
> They are not visibly aerodynamic and not new. People who no longer
> ride steel frame bicycles also want space age wheels and the MA-2 does
> not fill that demand although it is more durable, light weight, and
> dissipates brake heat better than the deep-V, non-metallic rims that
> replaced it.
>
> Solomon Ski bindings took only the name of Mavic and dropped
> everything that the company had, turning the business into a fad
> market with all sorts of gimmicks <SUP> and the rest of the acronyms
> along with rim names that challenge spelling and pronunciation:
> Ksyrium.
>
> All of their products cost substantially more than the products that
> existed immediately before introduction of the fashionable ones.
> Bicyclists stormed to their offerings, showing what marketing can do.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 05 Sep 2007 04:25:26
From: Luns Tee
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
In article <rubrum-93612F.14520604092007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net >,
Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote:
>The adjustment in any threaded headset is subject to thread lash.
Not necessarily: check out the American Classic Trilock headset.
In a normal threaded headset, the bearings push upwards on the
top cup, while the lockring pushes downwards on it. This difference in
direction is where lash comes in.
The american classic headset has its lockring distanced
slightly above the top cup. Instead of the lockring pushing downwards
on the cup, it's connected via three socket-head screws that pull the
bearing cup upwards towards the lockring. Both the bearing preload and
the locking tension from the screws push the cup in the same direction,
thus there is no lash transitioning from one to the other.
-Luns
|
| | | | | |
Date: 02 Sep 2007 23:33:08
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
In article <46db6b29$0$14067$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Michael Press writes:
>
> >>>> Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
> >>>> steerer fork?
>
> >>>> Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case?
>
> >>> Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed down)?
>
> http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm
>
> >> I suppose there is a reason for not using a star-nut but that is
> >> one of the features of the threadless steertube that is a great
> >> leap forward. The hex-drive screw in the cap enables precise
> >> bearing adjustment that is clamped in place by the two stem
> >> screws, making the inconvenient octagonal, one-foot long flat
> >> wrenches that always overshoot a thing of the past.
>
> > Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset for threaded
> > steering tubes. The top bearing race is threaded on the inside,
> > knurled on the outside and toothed on the top. It is a finger feel
> > adjustment to get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed and
> > keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its angular
> > position. There is a one tooth difference between the top bearing
> > race and the locking ring for a vernier adjustment: 41:40. The lock
> > ring is held down with a 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be
> > torqued down with any old thing; the top bearing race is going
> > nowhere. A beautiful, totally orthogonal system made from durable,
> > heavily nickel and chrome plated steel. It is easier to set the
> > preload with this head-set than with thread-less head-sets.
>
> Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't we see it
> anymore? The nut that secured the whole mess had a thread as did the
> adjustable race. Thread clearance made that adjustment more as
> difficult than the standard locknut that was tightened from snug to
> locked on conventional head sets. Thread clearance (backlash) is
> several times the range in which one can allow in bearing adjustment.
> That it is easier than with a threadless system is not my experience
> nor that of mechanics at the two largest shops in my area.
Be that as it may, I have just not been able to warm up to threadless
headsets. I don't like having the stem retain the bearing preload- in a
crash or if the bike gets knocked over, you can't just twist the bars
back into line. The odds are you'll have to get out your hex wrench and
reset the preload. I guess I just don't like one fastening system
holding two adjustments. And I like being able to easily adjust the
stem height (even though I don't change my stem height for years at a
time so that's really not a very rational preference).
> Beyond that, Stronglight did not address the stem problems I
> mentioned. For someone who doesn't use handlebars forcefully, the
> quill stem worked but there are enough riders who encountered the
> problems I listed to give bicycle shops and frame builders plenty of
> work.
I must be one of those as I have never encountered problems with the
stem rocking in the head tube, bulging the head tube, the quill freezing
into the steerer, etc. I did have one OEM stem (Viscount ca 1976) in
which one half of the split for the expander cracked off, which wouldn't
happen with a threadless stem.
Stems that clamped to the steerer rather than using a quill with an
expander or wedge had been around 60+ years ago and were all but
abandoned by the mid-1950s. Examples were most common on the bikes
built by the French constructeurs such as Rene Herse and Alex Singer.
Tom Ritchey experimented with stems like these in the late 70s/early 80s
from some photos I have seen. The French stems were combined with a
standard headset, the current threadless design not being available- I
don't know about Ritchey's stems. Both the French and the TR stems
looked very much like modern threadless stems and were sandwiched
between the top race and the locknut as well as clamped on with one or
two pinch bolts. AFAIK, however, the stem did not contribute to holding
the bearing preload adjustment.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 04 Sep 2007 11:14:25
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
"Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote in message
news:timmcn-57EE9C.23330802092007@news.iphouse.com...
>
> Stems that clamped to the steerer rather than using a quill with an
> expander or wedge had been around 60+ years ago and were all but
> abandoned by the mid-1950s. Examples were most common on the bikes
> built by the French constructeurs such as Rene Herse and Alex Singer.
> Tom Ritchey experimented with stems like these in the late 70s/early 80s
> from some photos I have seen. The French stems were combined with a
> standard headset, the current threadless design not being available- I
> don't know about Ritchey's stems. Both the French and the TR stems
> looked very much like modern threadless stems and were sandwiched
> between the top race and the locknut as well as clamped on with one or
> two pinch bolts. AFAIK, however, the stem did not contribute to holding
> the bearing preload adjustment.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220146748838
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 04 Sep 2007 13:18:28
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
In article <LvfDi.294787$5y.61814@newsfe18.lga >,
"Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox.net > wrote:
> "Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> news:timmcn-57EE9C.23330802092007@news.iphouse.com...
> >
> > Stems that clamped to the steerer rather than using a quill with an
> > expander or wedge had been around 60+ years ago and were all but
> > abandoned by the mid-1950s. Examples were most common on the bikes
> > built by the French constructeurs such as Rene Herse and Alex
> > Singer. Tom Ritchey experimented with stems like these in the late
> > 70s/early 80s from some photos I have seen. The French stems were
> > combined with a standard headset, the current threadless design not
> > being available- I don't know about Ritchey's stems. Both the
> > French and the TR stems looked very much like modern threadless
> > stems and were sandwiched between the top race and the locknut as
> > well as clamped on with one or two pinch bolts. AFAIK, however,
> > the stem did not contribute to holding the bearing preload
> > adjustment.
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220146748838
How apropos- thank you, Carl. That is a nice example of a
Rene Herse clamp-on stem, which was machined from a block of aluminum
alloy. Herse made them with and without quills. According to one of
the "pilotes de Herse," Roger Baumann, Herse abandoned the clamp-on
design around 1952.
I mentioned earlier that I tend to find threadless stems ugly- I think
the main exceptions to that are the ones that didn't try to mimic the
looks of a quill stem- such as the Herse pictured above or the Cinelli
Alter which looks like a modernistic descendant of the Herse stem.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 04 Sep 2007 20:28:15
From:
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
Tim McNamara writes:
>>> Stems that clamped to the steerer rather than using a quill with
>>> an expander or wedge had been around 60+ years ago and were all
>>> but abandoned by the mid-1950s. Examples were most common on the
>>> bikes built by the French constructeurs such as Rene Herse and
>>> Alex Singer. Tom Ritchey experimented with stems like these in the
>>> late 70s/early 80s from some photos I have seen. The French stems
>>> were combined with a standard headset, the current threadless
>>> design not being available- I don't know about Ritchey's stems.
>>> Both the French and the TR stems looked very much like modern
>>> threadless stems and were sandwiched between the top race and the
>>> locknut as well as clamped on with one or two pinch bolts. AFAIK,
>>> however, the stem did not contribute to holding the bearing
>>> preload adjustment.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220146748838
> How apropos- thank you, Carl. That is a nice example of a Rene
> Herse clamp-on stem, which was machined from a block of aluminum
> alloy. Herse made them with and without quills. According to one
> of the "pilotes de Herse," Roger Baumann, Herse abandoned the
> clamp-on design around 1952.
Oops! Herse was apparently not a structural type and didn't realize
that a stem of the shape shown was torsionally weak. The 'reach'
needs to be a tube or a solid rod. The one shown is not much stiffer
than one side slab of the one connecting the steertube to the bars.
That unit is a looser from the start. The rule of thumb is that the
cross section is about as stiff as the largest inscribed circular
cross section. The extreme example is a sheet of paper.
> I mentioned earlier that I tend to find threadless stems ugly- I
> think the main exceptions to that are the ones that didn't try to
> mimic the looks of a quill stem- such as the Herse pictured above or
> the Cinelli Alter which looks like a modernistic descendant of the
> Herse stem.
I find non functional designs ugly and although antique bicycles look
best with the components that were the mainstay in their day, the
threadless stem on my bicycle is greatly more elegant in my eyes than
the failed Cinelli stems that it replaced.
Jobst Brandt
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 04 Sep 2007 18:10:16
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
In article <46ddbfdf$0$14056$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Tim McNamara writes:
>
> >>> Stems that clamped to the steerer rather than using a quill with
> >>> an expander or wedge had been around 60+ years ago and were all
> >>> but abandoned by the mid-1950s. Examples were most common on the
> >>> bikes built by the French constructeurs such as Rene Herse and
> >>> Alex Singer. Tom Ritchey experimented with stems like these in
> >>> the late 70s/early 80s from some photos I have seen. The French
> >>> stems were combined with a standard headset, the current
> >>> threadless design not being available- I don't know about
> >>> Ritchey's stems. Both the French and the TR stems looked very
> >>> much like modern threadless stems and were sandwiched between the
> >>> top race and the locknut as well as clamped on with one or two
> >>> pinch bolts. AFAIK, however, the stem did not contribute to
> >>> holding the bearing preload adjustment.
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220146748838
>
> > How apropos- thank you, Carl. That is a nice example of a Rene
> > Herse clamp-on stem, which was machined from a block of aluminum
> > alloy. Herse made them with and without quills. According to one
> > of the "pilotes de Herse," Roger Baumann, Herse abandoned the
> > clamp-on design around 1952.
>
> Oops! Herse was apparently not a structural type and didn't realize
> that a stem of the shape shown was torsionally weak.
Beats me what his background was, other than that he was a machinist for
an aircraft manufacturer and initially made bike components on the side
before opening his bike shop. I have no idea if he had any background
structures and engineering. These stems were in production for many
years with minor modifications and were described as very reliable. But
then the Cinellis that you comment on later in your post were also in
production many years with only minor change. As in many applications,
a design only has to be "good enough" for most customers so "optimal"
can take a long time to reach.
> The 'reach' needs to be a tube or a solid rod. The one shown is not
> much stiffer than one side slab of the one connecting the steertube
> to the bars. That unit is a looser from the start. The rule of thumb
> is that the cross section is about as stiff as the largest inscribed
> circular cross section. The extreme example is a sheet of paper.
>
> > I mentioned earlier that I tend to find threadless stems ugly- I
> > think the main exceptions to that are the ones that didn't try to
> > mimic the looks of a quill stem- such as the Herse pictured above
> > or the Cinelli Alter which looks like a modernistic descendant of
> > the Herse stem.
>
> I find non functional designs ugly and although antique bicycles look
> best with the components that were the mainstay in their day, the
> threadless stem on my bicycle is greatly more elegant in my eyes than
> the failed Cinelli stems that it replaced.
>
> Jobst Brandt
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 03 Sep 2007 05:27:31
From:
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
Tim McNamara writes:
>>>>>> Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
>>>>>> steerer fork?
>>>>>> Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case?
>>>>> Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed down)?
http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm
>>>> I suppose there is a reason for not using a star-nut but that is
>>>> one of the features of the threadless steertube that is a great
>>>> leap forward. The hex-drive screw in the cap enables precise
>>>> bearing adjustment that is clamped in place by the two stem
>>>> screws, making the inconvenient octagonal, one-foot long flat
>>>> wrenches that always overshoot a thing of the past.
>>> Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset for threaded
>>> steering tubes. The top bearing race is threaded on the inside,
>>> knurled on the outside and toothed on the top. It is a finger feel
>>> adjustment to get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed
>>> and keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its angular
>>> position. There is a one tooth difference between the top bearing
>>> race and the locking ring for a vernier adjustment: 41:40. The
>>> lock ring is held down with a 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be
>>> torqued down with any old thing; the top bearing race is going
>>> nowhere. A beautiful, totally orthogonal system made from durable,
>>> heavily nickel and chrome plated steel. It is easier to set the
>>> preload with this head-set than with thread-less head-sets.
>> Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't we see it
>> anymore? The nut that secured the whole mess had a thread as did
>> the adjustable race. Thread clearance made that adjustment more as
>> difficult than the standard locknut that was tightened from snug to
>> locked on conventional head sets. Thread clearance (backlash) is
>> several times the range in which one can allow in bearing
>> adjustment. That it is easier than with a threadless system is not
>> my experience nor that of mechanics at the two largest shops in my
>> area.
> Be that as it may, I have just not been able to warm up to
> threadless headsets. I don't like having the stem retain the
> bearing preload- in a crash or if the bike gets knocked over, you
> can't just twist the bars back into line. The odds are you'll have
> to get out your hex wrench and reset the preload. I guess I just
> don't like one fastening system holding two adjustments. And I like
> being able to easily adjust the stem height (even though I don't
> change my stem height for years at a time so that's really not a
> very rational preference).
>> Beyond that, Stronglight did not address the stem problems I
>> mentioned. For someone who doesn't use handlebars forcefully, the
>> quill stem worked but there are enough riders who encountered the
>> problems I listed to give bicycle shops and frame builders plenty
>> of work.
> I must be one of those as I have never encountered problems with the
> stem rocking in the head tube, bulging the head tube, the quill
> freezing into the steerer, etc. I did have one OEM stem (Viscount
> ca 1976) in which one half of the split for the expander cracked
> off, which wouldn't happen with a threadless stem.
Consider that the quill stem only expanded at the bottom end and this
allowed the upper end to squirm side to side and front to back at the
top of the steertube/headset. To counter the bulge this caused in the
steel steertube, the wedge version was introduced and proceeded to
squirm enough to unscrew the stem expander bolt. The whole concept
was bad from the start with the stem free to wobble at the end where
the forces are applied.
> Stems that clamped to the steerer rather than using a quill with an
> expander or wedge had been around 60+ years ago and were all but
> abandoned by the mid-1950s. Examples were most common on the bikes
> built by the French constructeurs such as Rene Herse and Alex
> Singer. Tom Ritchey experimented with stems like these in the late
> 70s/early 80s from some photos I have seen. The French stems were
> combined with a standard headset, the current threadless design not
> being available- I don't know about Ritchey's stems. Both the
> French and the TR stems looked very much like modern threadless
> stems and were sandwiched between the top race and the locknut as
> well as clamped on with one or two pinch bolts. AFAIK, however, the
> stem did not contribute to holding the bearing preload adjustment.
These guys were a minority but recognized the stem problem. When
MTB's came along and had a flood of loosening and breaking stems the
concept returned with a vengeance, fortunately resolving the head
bearing adjustment at the same time, and getting rid of the clumsiest
wrenched on a bicycle to be replaced by an Allen key.
As I said, after installing the threadless fork and appropriate
Ritchey stem, I was repeatedly noticing how solid the bar attachment
was in contrast to the Cinelli quill stem. It took more than 8 months
to get over noticing that. That was more than switching from toe
clips and straps to SPD's.
Jobst Brandt
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 03 Sep 2007 10:41:22
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
In article <46db9b43$0$14097$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Tim McNamara writes:
>
> >>>>>> Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an
> >>>>>> alloy steerer fork?
>
> >>>>>> Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case?
>
> >>>>> Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed down)?
>
> http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm
>
> >>>> I suppose there is a reason for not using a star-nut but that is
> >>>> one of the features of the threadless steertube that is a great
> >>>> leap forward. The hex-drive screw in the cap enables precise
> >>>> bearing adjustment that is clamped in place by the two stem
> >>>> screws, making the inconvenient octagonal, one-foot long flat
> >>>> wrenches that always overshoot a thing of the past.
>
> >>> Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset for threaded
> >>> steering tubes. The top bearing race is threaded on the inside,
> >>> knurled on the outside and toothed on the top. It is a finger
> >>> feel adjustment to get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A
> >>> toothed and keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock
> >>> its angular position. There is a one tooth difference between
> >>> the top bearing race and the locking ring for a vernier
> >>> adjustment: 41:40. The lock ring is held down with a 5/16" nut.
> >>> The hold down nut can be torqued down with any old thing; the top
> >>> bearing race is going nowhere. A beautiful, totally orthogonal
> >>> system made from durable, heavily nickel and chrome plated steel.
> >>> It is easier to set the preload with this head-set than with
> >>> thread-less head-sets.
>
> >> Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't we see it
> >> anymore? The nut that secured the whole mess had a thread as did
> >> the adjustable race. Thread clearance made that adjustment more
> >> as difficult than the standard locknut that was tightened from
> >> snug to locked on conventional head sets. Thread clearance
> >> (backlash) is several times the range in which one can allow in
> >> bearing adjustment. That it is easier than with a threadless
> >> system is not my experience nor that of mechanics at the two
> >> largest shops in my area.
>
> > Be that as it may, I have just not been able to warm up to
> > threadless headsets. I don't like having the stem retain the
> > bearing preload- in a crash or if the bike gets knocked over, you
> > can't just twist the bars back into line. The odds are you'll have
> > to get out your hex wrench and reset the preload. I guess I just
> > don't like one fastening system holding two adjustments. And I
> > like being able to easily adjust the stem height (even though I
> > don't change my stem height for years at a time so that's really
> > not a very rational preference).
>
> >> Beyond that, Stronglight did not address the stem problems I
> >> mentioned. For someone who doesn't use handlebars forcefully, the
> >> quill stem worked but there are enough riders who encountered the
> >> problems I listed to give bicycle shops and frame builders plenty
> >> of work.
>
> > I must be one of those as I have never encountered problems with
> > the stem rocking in the head tube, bulging the head tube, the quill
> > freezing into the steerer, etc. I did have one OEM stem (Viscount
> > ca 1976) in which one half of the split for the expander cracked
> > off, which wouldn't happen with a threadless stem.
>
> Consider that the quill stem only expanded at the bottom end and this
> allowed the upper end to squirm side to side and front to back at the
> top of the steertube/headset. To counter the bulge this caused in
> the steel steertube, the wedge version was introduced and proceeded
> to squirm enough to unscrew the stem expander bolt. The whole
> concept was bad from the start with the stem free to wobble at the
> end where the forces are applied.
I suppose since I usually climb sitting down, I have not tended to exert
enough force on the stem to have experienced these things. That the
tallest climbs around here are only 600 feet or so is probably also a
contributor. I've only ridden in mountains once.
> > Stems that clamped to the steerer rather than using a quill with an
> > expander or wedge had been around 60+ years ago and were all but
> > abandoned by the mid-1950s. Examples were most common on the bikes
> > built by the French constructeurs such as Rene Herse and Alex
> > Singer. Tom Ritchey experimented with stems like these in the late
> > 70s/early 80s from some photos I have seen. The French stems were
> > combined with a standard headset, the current threadless design not
> > being available- I don't know about Ritchey's stems. Both the
> > French and the TR stems looked very much like modern threadless
> > stems and were sandwiched between the top race and the locknut as
> > well as clamped on with one or two pinch bolts. AFAIK, however,
> > the stem did not contribute to holding the bearing preload
> > adjustment.
>
> These guys were a minority but recognized the stem problem. When
> MTB's came along and had a flood of loosening and breaking stems the
> concept returned with a vengeance, fortunately resolving the head
> bearing adjustment at the same time, and getting rid of the clumsiest
> wrenched on a bicycle to be replaced by an Allen key.
I stopped working in bike shops ca 1985, in an area where most MTBs sold
never saw a dirt trail. I never saw things like this there, but in
places like California where riding offroad really took off the story
was probably different. I wonder if the extreme width of MTB handlebars
was a contributor.
> As I said, after installing the threadless fork and appropriate
> Ritchey stem, I was repeatedly noticing how solid the bar attachment
> was in contrast to the Cinelli quill stem. It took more than 8
> months to get over noticing that. That was more than switching from
> toe clips and straps to SPD's.
The one bike I have with a threadless stem and headset is my tandem, and
the bike feels so different from all my other bikes that whatever
difference in feel the stem makes is probably lost.
Someone posted these photos of your bike a while back, showing the stem
setup with the very tall spacer. Does this provide enough leverage
against the stem to cause some slippage in the bearing preload over
time? BTW, that fork crown is gorgeous. How did he do that?
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 03 Sep 2007 17:25:06
From:
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
Tim McNamara writes:
>> Consider that the quill stem only expanded at the bottom end and
>> this allowed the upper end to squirm side to side and front to back
>> at the top of the steertube/headset. To counter the bulge this
>> caused in the steel steertube, the wedge version was introduced and
>> proceeded to squirm enough to unscrew the stem expander bolt. The
>> whole concept was bad from the start with the stem free to wobble
>> at the end where the forces are applied.
> I suppose since I usually climb sitting down, I have not tended to
> exert enough force on the stem to have experienced these things.
> That the tallest climbs around here are only 600 feet or so is
> probably also a contributor. I've only ridden in mountains once.
>>> Stems that clamped to the steerer rather than using a quill with
>>> an expander or wedge had been around 60+ years ago and were all
>>> but abandoned by the mid-1950s. Examples were most common on the
>>> bikes built by the French constructeurs such as Rene Herse and
>>> Alex Singer. Tom Ritchey experimented with stems like these in
>>> the late 70s/early 80s from some photos I have seen. The French
>>> stems were combined with a standard headset, the current
>>> threadless design not being available- I don't know about
>>> Ritchey's stems. Both the French and the TR stems looked very
>>> much like modern threadless stems and were sandwiched between the
>>> top race and the locknut as well as clamped on with one or two
>>> pinch bolts. AFAIK, however, the stem did not contribute to
>>> holding the bearing preload adjustment.
>> These guys were a minority but recognized the stem problem. When
>> MTB's came along and had a flood of loosening and breaking stems
>> the concept returned with a vengeance, fortunately resolving the
>> head bearing adjustment at the same time, and getting rid of the
>> clumsiest wrenched on a bicycle to be replaced by an Allen key.
> I stopped working in bike shops ca 1985, in an area where most MTB's
> sold never saw a dirt trail. I never saw things like this there,
> but in places like California where riding offroad really took off
> the story was probably different. I wonder if the extreme width of
> MTB handlebars was a contributor.
>> As I said, after installing the threadless fork and appropriate
>> Ritchey stem, I was repeatedly noticing how solid the bar
>> attachment was in contrast to the Cinelli quill stem. It took more
>> than 8 months to get over noticing that. That was more than
>> switching from toe clips and straps to SPD's.
> The one bike I have with a threadless stem and headset is my tandem,
> and the bike feels so different from all my other bikes that
> whatever difference in feel the stem makes is probably lost.
I don't see how you can even think of comparing different bicycles
with how they feel with a quill and threadless stem. This requires
riding the same bicycle, first with the old and then with the new.
> Someone posted these photos of your bike a while back, showing the
> stem setup with the very tall spacer. Does this provide enough
> leverage against the stem to cause some slippage in the bearing
> preload over time? BTW, that fork crown is gorgeous. How did he do
> that?
Instead of stacking spacer rings and sloping the stem up, I wanted the
stem heel to be high enough that I can rest my chin on my hands when
coasting tucked in and hands on the stem. The spacer is an aluminum
tube with small flanges at the ends.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/
Jobst Brandt
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 03 Sep 2007 10:11:26
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
On 03 Sep 2007 05:27:31 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>Tim McNamara writes:
>
>>>>>>> Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
>>>>>>> steerer fork?
>
>>>>>>> Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case?
>
>>>>>> Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed down)?
>
> http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm
>
>>>>> I suppose there is a reason for not using a star-nut but that is
>>>>> one of the features of the threadless steertube that is a great
>>>>> leap forward. The hex-drive screw in the cap enables precise
>>>>> bearing adjustment that is clamped in place by the two stem
>>>>> screws, making the inconvenient octagonal, one-foot long flat
>>>>> wrenches that always overshoot a thing of the past.
>
>>>> Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset for threaded
>>>> steering tubes. The top bearing race is threaded on the inside,
>>>> knurled on the outside and toothed on the top. It is a finger feel
>>>> adjustment to get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed
>>>> and keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its angular
>>>> position. There is a one tooth difference between the top bearing
>>>> race and the locking ring for a vernier adjustment: 41:40. The
>>>> lock ring is held down with a 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be
>>>> torqued down with any old thing; the top bearing race is going
>>>> nowhere. A beautiful, totally orthogonal system made from durable,
>>>> heavily nickel and chrome plated steel. It is easier to set the
>>>> preload with this head-set than with thread-less head-sets.
>
>>> Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't we see it
>>> anymore? The nut that secured the whole mess had a thread as did
>>> the adjustable race. Thread clearance made that adjustment more as
>>> difficult than the standard locknut that was tightened from snug to
>>> locked on conventional head sets. Thread clearance (backlash) is
>>> several times the range in which one can allow in bearing
>>> adjustment. That it is easier than with a threadless system is not
>>> my experience nor that of mechanics at the two largest shops in my
>>> area.
>
>> Be that as it may, I have just not been able to warm up to
>> threadless headsets. I don't like having the stem retain the
>> bearing preload- in a crash or if the bike gets knocked over, you
>> can't just twist the bars back into line. The odds are you'll have
>> to get out your hex wrench and reset the preload. I guess I just
>> don't like one fastening system holding two adjustments. And I like
>> being able to easily adjust the stem height (even though I don't
>> change my stem height for years at a time so that's really not a
>> very rational preference).
>
>>> Beyond that, Stronglight did not address the stem problems I
>>> mentioned. For someone who doesn't use handlebars forcefully, the
>>> quill stem worked but there are enough riders who encountered the
>>> problems I listed to give bicycle shops and frame builders plenty
>>> of work.
>
>> I must be one of those as I have never encountered problems with the
>> stem rocking in the head tube, bulging the head tube, the quill
>> freezing into the steerer, etc. I did have one OEM stem (Viscount
>> ca 1976) in which one half of the split for the expander cracked
>> off, which wouldn't happen with a threadless stem.
>
>Consider that the quill stem only expanded at the bottom end and this
>allowed the upper end to squirm side to side and front to back at the
>top of the steertube/headset. To counter the bulge this caused in the
>steel steertube, the wedge version was introduced and proceeded to
>squirm enough to unscrew the stem expander bolt. The whole concept
>was bad from the start with the stem free to wobble at the end where
>the forces are applied.
>
>> Stems that clamped to the steerer rather than using a quill with an
>> expander or wedge had been around 60+ years ago and were all but
>> abandoned by the mid-1950s. Examples were most common on the bikes
>> built by the French constructeurs such as Rene Herse and Alex
>> Singer. Tom Ritchey experimented with stems like these in the late
>> 70s/early 80s from some photos I have seen. The French stems were
>> combined with a standard headset, the current threadless design not
>> being available- I don't know about Ritchey's stems. Both the
>> French and the TR stems looked very much like modern threadless
>> stems and were sandwiched between the top race and the locknut as
>> well as clamped on with one or two pinch bolts. AFAIK, however, the
>> stem did not contribute to holding the bearing preload adjustment.
>
>These guys were a minority but recognized the stem problem. When
>MTB's came along and had a flood of loosening and breaking stems the
>concept returned with a vengeance, fortunately resolving the head
>bearing adjustment at the same time, and getting rid of the clumsiest
>wrenched on a bicycle to be replaced by an Allen key.
>
>As I said, after installing the threadless fork and appropriate
>Ritchey stem, I was repeatedly noticing how solid the bar attachment
>was in contrast to the Cinelli quill stem. It took more than 8 months
>to get over noticing that. That was more than switching from toe
>clips and straps to SPD's.
The modern threadless is solid and reliable and I'm fairly well resigned to it,
but damn is it ugly. The oversized steerer thing doesn't help and the recent fad
for gigantomongous headsets is only going to make it worse. Bleah. Do these
things look like crap on an otherwise sleek and elegant machine.
Ron
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 03 Sep 2007 21:08:53
From: Steve Gravrock
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
On 2007-09-03, RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> The modern threadless is solid and reliable and I'm fairly well resigned to it,
> but damn is it ugly. The oversized steerer thing doesn't help and the recent fad
> for gigantomongous headsets is only going to make it worse. Bleah. Do these
> things look like crap on an otherwise sleek and elegant machine.
I just spent the last 10 minutes hammering away at a stuck stem
expander with nothing to show for my effort except for a sore hand. The
stem has been installed for all of two or three weeks. It's by no means
the first time I've had this problem on that bike. No matter how much I
grease the wedge, it rusts to the inside of the steerer. This time I
didn't even ride the bike in the rain between installation and attempted
removal.
I find myself wishing I'd bit the bullet and converted to threadless
instead of putting in another threaded headset. I like the look of a
traditional quill stem as much as the next guy, but threadless is so
much easier to work with.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 03 Sep 2007 12:52:40
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
In article
<9c5od3lup1u7cpn99q46aulkk9pve1pjpg@4ax.com >,
RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> The modern threadless is solid and reliable and I'm fairly well resigned to it,
> but damn is it ugly. The oversized steerer thing doesn't help and the recent fad
> for gigantomongous headsets is only going to make it worse. Bleah. Do these
> things look like crap on an otherwise sleek and elegant machine.
I have the new and old system. The new is mechanically more robust.
The old looks gooood.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 03 Sep 2007 17:17:41
From:
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
Ron Sonic writes:
>>>>>>>> Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
>>>>>>>> steerer fork?
>>>>>>>> Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case?
>>>>>>> Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed down)?
http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm
>>>>>> I suppose there is a reason for not using a star-nut but that
>>>>>> is one of the features of the threadless steertube that is a
>>>>>> great leap forward. The hex-drive screw in the cap enables
>>>>>> precise bearing adjustment that is clamped in place by the two
>>>>>> stem screws, making the inconvenient octagonal, one-foot long
>>>>>> flat wrenches that always overshoot a thing of the past.
>>>>> Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset for
>>>>> threaded steering tubes. The top bearing race is threaded on the
>>>>> inside, knurled on the outside and toothed on the top. It is a
>>>>> finger feel adjustment to get a perfect headset bearing
>>>>> pre-load. A toothed and keyed ring settles on the top bearing
>>>>> race to lock its angular position. There is a one tooth
>>>>> difference between the top bearing race and the locking ring for
>>>>> a vernier adjustment: 41:40. The lock ring is held down with a
>>>>> 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be torqued down with any old
>>>>> thing; the top bearing race is going nowhere. A beautiful,
>>>>> totally orthogonal system made from durable, heavily nickel and
>>>>> chrome plated steel. It is easier to set the preload with this
>>>>> head-set than with thread-less head-sets.
>>>> Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't we see it
>>>> anymore? The nut that secured the whole mess had a thread as did
>>>> the adjustable race. Thread clearance made that adjustment more
>>>> as difficult than the standard locknut that was tightened from
>>>> snug to locked on conventional head sets. Thread clearance
>>>> (backlash) is several times the range in which one can allow in
>>>> bearing adjustment. That it is easier than with a threadless
>>>> system is not my experience nor that of mechanics at the two
>>>> largest shops in my area.
>>> Be that as it may, I have just not been able to warm up to
>>> threadless headsets. I don't like having the stem retain the
>>> bearing preload- in a crash or if the bike gets knocked over, you
>>> can't just twist the bars back into line. The odds are you'll
>>> have to get out your hex wrench and reset the preload. I guess I
>>> just don't like one fastening system holding two adjustments. And
>>> I like being able to easily adjust the stem height (even though I
>>> don't change my stem height for years at a time so that's really
>>> not a very rational preference).
>>>> Beyond that, Stronglight did not address the stem problems I
>>>> mentioned. For someone who doesn't use handlebars forcefully,
>>>> the quill stem worked but there are enough riders who encountered
>>>> the problems I listed to give bicycle shops and frame builders
>>>> plenty of work.
>>> I must be one of those as I have never encountered problems with
>>> the stem rocking in the head tube, bulging the head tube, the
>>> quill freezing into the steerer, etc. I did have one OEM stem
>>> (Viscount ca 1976) in which one half of the split for the expander
>>> cracked off, which wouldn't happen with a threadless stem.
>> Consider that the quill stem only expanded at the bottom end and
>> this allowed the upper end to squirm side to side and front to back
>> at the top of the steertube/headset. To counter the bulge this
>> caused in the steel steertube, the wedge version was introduced and
>> proceeded to squirm enough to unscrew the stem expander bolt. The
>> whole concept was bad from the start with the stem free to wobble
>> at the end where the forces are applied.
>>> Stems that clamped to the steerer rather than using a quill with
>>> an expander or wedge had been around 60+ years ago and were all
>>> but abandoned by the mid-1950s. Examples were most common on the
>>> bikes built by the French constructeurs such as Rene Herse and
>>> Alex Singer. Tom Ritchey experimented with stems like these in
>>> the late 70s/early 80s from some photos I have seen. The French
>>> stems were combined with a standard headset, the current
>>> threadless design not being available- I don't know about
>>> Ritchey's stems. Both the French and the TR stems looked very
>>> much like modern threadless stems and were sandwiched between the
>>> top race and the locknut as well as clamped on with one or two
>>> pinch bolts. AFAIK, however, the stem did not contribute to
>>> holding the bearing preload adjustment.
>> These guys were a minority but recognized the stem problem. When
>> MTB's came along and had a flood of loosening and breaking stems
>> the concept returned with a vengeance, fortunately resolving the
>> head bearing adjustment at the same time, and getting rid of the
>> clumsiest wrenched on a bicycle to be replaced by an Allen key.
>> As I said, after installing the threadless fork and appropriate
>> Ritchey stem, I was repeatedly noticing how solid the bar
>> attachment was in contrast to the Cinelli quill stem. It took more
>> than 8 months to get over noticing that. That was more than
>> switching from toe clips and straps to SPD's.
> The modern threadless is solid and reliable and I'm fairly well
> resigned to it, but damn is it ugly. The oversized steerer thing
> doesn't help and the recent fad for gigantomongous headsets is only
> going to make it worse. Bleah. Do these things look like crap on
> an otherwise sleek and elegant machine.
You might find my bicycle ugly but the stem is not why that appellation
might fit:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/
Jobst Brandt
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 04 Sep 2007 09:50:21
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
On 03 Sep 2007 17:17:41 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>Ron Sonic writes:
>
>> The modern threadless is solid and reliable and I'm fairly well
>> resigned to it, but damn is it ugly. The oversized steerer thing
>> doesn't help and the recent fad for gigantomongous headsets is only
>> going to make it worse. Bleah. Do these things look like crap on
>> an otherwise sleek and elegant machine.
>
>You might find my bicycle ugly but the stem is not why that appellation
>might fit:
>
>http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/
It looks better than the geezer riding it - just like my bikes.
The one inch HT helps, as does the silver stack of spacers, etc. Probably better
looking with the horizontal stem and spacers, rather than the more practical cut
down steerer and up-angled stem. Still it hasn't got the sleek of an old school
Cinelli or Modolo quill to my taste.
Ron
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 03 Sep 2007 12:00:43
From: Doug Taylor
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 10:11:26 -0400, RonSonic
<ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
>The modern threadless is solid and reliable and I'm fairly well resigned to it,
>but damn is it ugly. The oversized steerer thing doesn't help and the recent fad
>for gigantomongous headsets is only going to make it worse. Bleah. Do these
>things look like crap on an otherwise sleek and elegant machine.
Well, you CAN go fashion overboard with spacers and caps if the spirit
moves you:
https://www.purelycustom.com/bicycle_Spacers.html
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 03 Sep 2007 10:46:43
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
In article <9c5od3lup1u7cpn99q46aulkk9pve1pjpg@4ax.com >,
RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> The modern threadless is solid and reliable and I'm fairly well
> resigned to it, but damn is it ugly. The oversized steerer thing
> doesn't help and the recent fad for gigantomongous headsets is only
> going to make it worse. Bleah. Do these things look like crap on an
> otherwise sleek and elegant machine.
I wasn't going to play the aesthetics card because it is so subjective
but I agree with you. Upsloping stems, the norm in threadless stems,
look very ugly to my eyes. There are a few angles that work out better
that others (90 degrees, or if the upslope matches some other tube angle
like the downtube). Jobst's solution is aesthetically better with the
stem being parallel to the top tube, although I'd prefer a silver stem.
http://www.bikecult.com/works/archive/04bicycles/pjohnsonJB04.html
OK, join us next time for a discussion of crotchet patterns for bicycle
doilies. :-P
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 03 Sep 2007 01:23:26
From: Jambo
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
"Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote in message
news:timmcn-57EE9C.23330802092007@news.iphouse.com...
> Be that as it may, I have just not been able to warm up to threadless
> headsets. I don't like having the stem retain the bearing preload- in a
> crash or if the bike gets knocked over, you can't just twist the bars
> back into line. The odds are you'll have to get out your hex wrench and
> reset the preload. I guess I just don't like one fastening system
> holding two adjustments.
It's actually the stem AND the steerer cap (which screws on to the star
fangled nut) that holds the headset preload. If the stem somehow gets hit
out of alignment, whip out an allen key and re-align the stem - the headset
will still be loaded by the steerer cap. Besides, there's no big deal in
loading the headset.
|
| | | |
Date: 01 Sep 2007 15:40:33
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org > wrote in message
news:46d9c62d$0$14142$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>
> A well designed stem uses the same hex-key for all three screws while
> weighing about 1/100 of the old head adjustment wrenches.
(Exaggerated) wrench weight as a criteria for a well designed stem?
Wow.
|
| | | | |
Date: 04 Sep 2007 00:35:57
From: Paul Myron Hobson
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
> <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
> news:46d9c62d$0$14142$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>>
>> A well designed stem uses the same hex-key for all three screws while
>> weighing about 1/100 of the old head adjustment wrenches.
Carl Sundquist wrote:
> (Exaggerated) wrench weight as a criteria for a well designed stem?
>
> Wow.
I think JB's point was that it's very easy to carry the 1 req'd hex key
around on a tour/commute/whatever.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 04 Sep 2007 11:26:43
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
"Paul Myron Hobson" <phobson@gatech.edu > wrote in message
news:fbinbc$69d$1@news-int2.gatech.edu...
>> <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
>> news:46d9c62d$0$14142$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>>>
>>> A well designed stem uses the same hex-key for all three screws while
>>> weighing about 1/100 of the old head adjustment wrenches.
>
> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>> (Exaggerated) wrench weight as a criteria for a well designed stem?
>>
>> Wow.
>
> I think JB's point was that it's very easy to carry the 1 req'd hex key
> around on a tour/commute/whatever.
And on that, I wholeheartedly agree. But Jobst's reference was to weight,
not cumbersome size. Wrench size is more of an issue between the two
factors. If his point was that it's much easier to carry around a hex
wrench, then he has a problem making his point clearly. It that wasn't his
point, then the weight of the wrenches borders on irrelevant (unless you are
a mobile mechanic).
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 04 Sep 2007 17:49:04
From:
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
Carl Sundquist writes:
>>>> A well designed stem uses the same hex-key for all three screws
>>>> while weighing about 1/100 of the old head adjustment wrenches.
>>> (Exaggerated) wrench weight as a criteria for a well designed
>>> stem?
>>> Wow.
>> I think JB's point was that it's very easy to carry the 1 req'd hex
>> key around on a tour/commute/whatever.
> And on that, I wholeheartedly agree. But Jobst's reference was to
> weight, not cumbersome size. Wrench size is more of an issue
> between the two factors. If his point was that it's much easier to
> carry around a hex wrench, then he has a problem making his point
> clearly. It that wasn't his point, then the weight of the wrenches
> borders on irrelevant (unless you are a mobile mechanic).
My point was that these (2) wrenches are cumbersome, expensive and
difficult to use, and mentioned the weight because that is the most
conspicuous difference between an hex key and these ungainly wrenches.
Their weight and size is additionally a problem because it prevents
carrying them on the road. Your comment seemed argumentative by using
a straw man (weight) as a target.
Jobst Brandt
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 04 Sep 2007 15:26:01
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org > wrote in message
news:46dd9a90$0$14069$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Carl Sundquist writes:
>
>>>>> A well designed stem uses the same hex-key for all three screws
>>>>> while weighing about 1/100 of the old head adjustment wrenches.
>
>>>> (Exaggerated) wrench weight as a criteria for a well designed
>>>> stem?
>
>>>> Wow.
>
>>> I think JB's point was that it's very easy to carry the 1 req'd hex
>>> key around on a tour/commute/whatever.
>
>> And on that, I wholeheartedly agree. But Jobst's reference was to
>> weight, not cumbersome size. Wrench size is more of an issue
>> between the two factors. If his point was that it's much easier to
>> carry around a hex wrench, then he has a problem making his point
>> clearly. It that wasn't his point, then the weight of the wrenches
>> borders on irrelevant (unless you are a mobile mechanic).
>
> My point was that these (2) wrenches are cumbersome, expensive and
> difficult to use, and mentioned the weight because that is the most
> conspicuous difference between an hex key and these ungainly wrenches.
> Their weight and size is additionally a problem because it prevents
> carrying them on the road. Your comment seemed argumentative by using
> a straw man (weight) as a target.
>
> Jobst Brandt
It became a target because you listed it as one of numerous valid reasons
why quill stems are inferior.
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Date: 04 Sep 2007 17:36:19
From: Clive George
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
"Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox.net > wrote in message
news:hHfDi.294788$5y.72970@newsfe18.lga...
>> I think JB's point was that it's very easy to carry the 1 req'd hex key
>> around on a tour/commute/whatever.
>
> And on that, I wholeheartedly agree. But Jobst's reference was to weight,
> not cumbersome size. Wrench size is more of an issue between the two
> factors. If his point was that it's much easier to carry around a hex
> wrench, then he has a problem making his point clearly. It that wasn't his
> point, then the weight of the wrenches borders on irrelevant (unless you
> are a mobile mechanic).
If you're on an unsupported tour, you become a mobile mechanic, and weight
is an issue.
cheers,
clive
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Date: 04 Sep 2007 11:59:36
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
"Clive George" <clive@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk > wrote in message
news:13dr2cclml0gq42@corp.supernews.com...
> "Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:hHfDi.294788$5y.72970@newsfe18.lga...
>
>>> I think JB's point was that it's very easy to carry the 1 req'd hex key
>>> around on a tour/commute/whatever.
>>
>> And on that, I wholeheartedly agree. But Jobst's reference was to weight,
>> not cumbersome size. Wrench size is more of an issue between the two
>> factors. If his point was that it's much easier to carry around a hex
>> wrench, then he has a problem making his point clearly. It that wasn't
>> his point, then the weight of the wrenches borders on irrelevant (unless
>> you are a mobile mechanic).
>
> If you're on an unsupported tour, you become a mobile mechanic, and weight
> is an issue.
>
> cheers,
> clive
>
If you're on an unsupported tour, are you carrying bottom bracket tools and
cone wrenches?
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Date: 04 Sep 2007 13:23:02
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
In article <6agDi.69481$GO6.5242@newsfe21.lga >,
"Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox.net > wrote:
> "Clive George" <clive@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:13dr2cclml0gq42@corp.supernews.com...
> > "Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox.net> wrote in message
> > news:hHfDi.294788$5y.72970@newsfe18.lga...
> >
> >>> I think JB's point was that it's very easy to carry the 1 req'd
> >>> hex key around on a tour/commute/whatever.
> >>
> >> And on that, I wholeheartedly agree. But Jobst's reference was to
> >> weight, not cumbersome size. Wrench size is more of an issue
> >> between the two factors. If his point was that it's much easier to
> >> carry around a hex wrench, then he has a problem making his point
> >> clearly. It that wasn't his point, then the weight of the wrenches
> >> borders on irrelevant (unless you are a mobile mechanic).
> >
> > If you're on an unsupported tour, you become a mobile mechanic, and
> > weight is an issue.
> >
>
> If you're on an unsupported tour, are you carrying bottom bracket
> tools and cone wrenches?
Well, my Cool Tool has both. The adjustable wrench is suitable for
working on cones and there is a hook spanner attachment that weighs very
little. But with Phil Wood FSA hubs a pair of 5 mm Allen wrenches are
all that is needed to change bearings and of course hook spanners are
passé nowadays, so the Cool Tool stays home. My current on-the-bike
tool kit fits in an Altoids can- inspired by these:
http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-003/000.html
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| | | | | | | | |
Date: 04 Sep 2007 18:15:47
From: Clive George
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
"Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox.net > wrote in message
news:6agDi.69481$GO6.5242@newsfe21.lga...
>
> "Clive George" <clive@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:13dr2cclml0gq42@corp.supernews.com...
>> "Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox.net> wrote in message
>> news:hHfDi.294788$5y.72970@newsfe18.lga...
>>
>>>> I think JB's point was that it's very easy to carry the 1 req'd hex key
>>>> around on a tour/commute/whatever.
>>>
>>> And on that, I wholeheartedly agree. But Jobst's reference was to
>>> weight, not cumbersome size. Wrench size is more of an issue between the
>>> two factors. If his point was that it's much easier to carry around a
>>> hex wrench, then he has a problem making his point clearly. It that
>>> wasn't his point, then the weight of the wrenches borders on irrelevant
>>> (unless you are a mobile mechanic).
>>
>> If you're on an unsupported tour, you become a mobile mechanic, and
>> weight is an issue.
>
> If you're on an unsupported tour, are you carrying bottom bracket tools
> and cone wrenches?
Think a bit harder about the kinds of task one may perform. Taking the fork
out for transit isn't unknown, and being able to do that without carrying a
gert headset spanner around is good.
(BB tools are only required if the BB needs servicing, which means a new one
in my case. Ditto cone spanners - I don't have cones on my wheels).
clive
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Date: 04 Sep 2007 15:37:13
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
"Clive George" <clive@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk > wrote in message
news:13dr4m7ph5at654@corp.supernews.com...
> "Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:6agDi.69481$GO6.5242@newsfe21.lga...
>>
>> "Clive George" <clive@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:13dr2cclml0gq42@corp.supernews.com...
>>> "Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox.net> wrote in message
>>> news:hHfDi.294788$5y.72970@newsfe18.lga...
>>>
>>>>> I think JB's point was that it's very easy to carry the 1 req'd hex
>>>>> key around on a tour/commute/whatever.
>>>>
>>>> And on that, I wholeheartedly agree. But Jobst's reference was to
>>>> weight, not cumbersome size. Wrench size is more of an issue between
>>>> the two factors. If his point was that it's much easier to carry around
>>>> a hex wrench, then he has a problem making his point clearly. It that
>>>> wasn't his point, then the weight of the wrenches borders on irrelevant
>>>> (unless you are a mobile mechanic).
>>>
>>> If you're on an unsupported tour, you become a mobile mechanic, and
>>> weight is an issue.
>>
>> If you're on an unsupported tour, are you carrying bottom bracket tools
>> and cone wrenches?
>
> Think a bit harder about the kinds of task one may perform. Taking the
> fork out for transit isn't unknown, and being able to do that without
> carrying a gert headset spanner around is good.
>
> (BB tools are only required if the BB needs servicing, which means a new
> one in my case. Ditto cone spanners - I don't have cones on my wheels).
>
You have made this very personalized and specific. Taking a fork out for
transit may not be unheard of, but it certainly isn't common.
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Date: 01 Sep 2007 23:18:54
From:
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
Carl Sundquist writes:
>> A well designed stem uses the same hex-key for all three screws
>> while weighing about 1/100 of the old head adjustment wrenches.
> (Exaggerated) wrench weight as a criteria for a well designed stem?
> Wow.
So what do your Campagnolo head wrenches weigh? Mine weigh 457g and
the Allen wrench that replaced them weighs 19g or a ratio of 24:1 plus
a volume that does not readily fit in a touring bag, let alone the
tool side pocket, there where the other small items and tire levers
are stored. That isn't 100:1 but it is in the right magnitude.
Meanwhile Park wrenches are more weighty at 670g (35:1) but no better
for adjusting head bearings.
So what do you find defensible characteristics of ("the well
designed") expanding quill stem? The old ones had an expanding cone
and caused bloated steertubes while the slant wedge ones unscrew from
vertical handlebar forces. For this reason the threadless steertube
was introduced for MTB's where these tilting forces are great enough
to more readily cause failure than with road bars.
I am grateful for this advance, having over the years had to cut off
and bore out the aluminum quill stems with a Dremel tool because they
corroded solid into the steertube in winter while steel ones just
rusted and wobbled even when tight enough to bulge the steertube.
Jobst Brandt
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Date: 03 Sep 2007 14:19:25
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org > wrote in message
news:46d9f35e$0$14095$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Carl Sundquist writes:
>
>>> A well designed stem uses the same hex-key for all three screws
>>> while weighing about 1/100 of the old head adjustment wrenches.
>
>> (Exaggerated) wrench weight as a criteria for a well designed stem?
>
>> Wow.
>
> So what do your Campagnolo head wrenches weigh? Mine weigh 457g and
> the Allen wrench that replaced them weighs 19g or a ratio of 24:1 plus
> a volume that does not readily fit in a touring bag, let alone the
> tool side pocket, there where the other small items and tire levers
> are stored. That isn't 100:1 but it is in the right magnitude.
> Meanwhile Park wrenches are more weighty at 670g (35:1) but no better
> for adjusting head bearings.
>
> So what do you find defensible characteristics of ("the well
> designed") expanding quill stem? The old ones had an expanding cone
> and caused bloated steertubes while the slant wedge ones unscrew from
> vertical handlebar forces. For this reason the threadless steertube
> was introduced for MTB's where these tilting forces are great enough
> to more readily cause failure than with road bars.
>
> I am grateful for this advance, having over the years had to cut off
> and bore out the aluminum quill stems with a Dremel tool because they
> corroded solid into the steertube in winter while steel ones just
> rusted and wobbled even when tight enough to bulge the steertube.
>
> Jobst Brandt
I'm grateful too, but wrench weight is not among my reasons why. The only
defensible characteristics of the quill stem that I can think of are quick
and infinite height adjustment.
|
| |
Date: 31 Aug 2007 22:10:17
From: D T W .../\\...
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/HS707Z00-Azonic+Head+Lock.aspx
--
DTW .../\.../\.../\...
|
| | |
Date: 31 Aug 2007 23:21:52
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
In article <dl0Ci.162$Ov2.43@trndny06 >,
"D T W .../\\..." <vze3n4p8@verizon.net > wrote:
> http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/HS707Z00-Azonic+Head+Lock.aspx
Why does the bolt need to be 7" 1/2 long?
The bolt from the cap to the star nut here is ~ 2".
--
Michael Press
|
| | | |
Date: 01 Sep 2007 11:38:40
From: daveornee
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
Michael Press Wrote:
> In article <dl0Ci.162$Ov2.43@trndny06>,
> "D T W .../\\..." <vze3n4p8@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
> http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/HS707Z00-Azonic+Head+Lock.aspx
>
> Why does the bolt need to be 7" 1/2 long?
> The bolt from the cap to the star nut here is ~ 2".
>
> --
> Michael Press
The bolt spans the entire length of the fork steerer tube
--
daveornee
|
| |
Date: 31 Aug 2007 15:11:38
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
> Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
> steerer fork ?
Yes, there are a variety of self-expanding anchors made for the
purpose.
> Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case ?
As far as I know, none of the commercial solutions are specific to
CFRP steer tubes. Since both CFRP and aluminum steerers run thicker
than normal, any threadless headset expanding anchor that works for
one would work for the other.
Chalo
|
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Date: 31 Aug 2007 21:12:55
From: Paul Kopit
Subject: Re: star fangled nut alternative
|
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 15:11:38 -0000, Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com >
wrote:
>As far as I know, none of the commercial solutions are specific to
>CFRP steer tubes. Since both CFRP and aluminum steerers run thicker
>than normal, any threadless headset expanding anchor that works for
>one would work for the other.
Actually, I had trouble using an FSA expander stem with an alloy steer
tube. The expander would not would keep turning. I could have likely
put some rubber cement inside the steerer but banging in a starnut
worked fine.
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|
